Talk:Palestinians/Archive 4

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"The Palestinian population is largely

Palestinian#Religions: "there are also about 300 Samaritans and a few thousand Jews from the Neturei Karta group who consider themselves Palestinian." - Mustafaa

22:59, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

For which see their site: "We seek to live in the land of Palestine as anti

Zionist Jews. To reside as loyal and peaceful Palestinian citizens..." - Mustafaa

23:04, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I see, that is their goal? And yet they are currently not living there, nor do they call themselves Palestinians, nor are they Palestinian citizens. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:17, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I think that statement refers to the original term "Palestinian" which encompassed anybody living on the land. Also, a top official of Neturei Karta, Rabbi Moshe Hirsch, was "Minister for Jewish Affairs" in the first PA government in 1996. If we want to get into specifics, we have at least one couple who are close friends of my family where the husband is Palestinian and the wife is Jewish, born abroad and now "naturalized" inasmuch as that makes sense in a non-sovereign country. Both have Palestinian IDs and are residents. And I know of a few other similar cases as well. So both historically and currently, to claim that there are no Palestinians who are Jewish is untrue. Ramallite ^(talk) 04:20, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

The original statements was a theoretical political position, not an actual reflection of reality. And regarding the tiny number of Jews who have Palestinian IDs, I suspect that there are probably several Buddhists who are Palestinians as well; should they be mentioned? The "Jewish minority", such as they are, are an insignificant number, and they are only listed here for political purposes. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:43, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

The problem here is that the meaning of the term "Palestinian" has changed over the years. I have read books from the 1940s that speak of Palestinians taking it for granted that the term refers to Jews living in the Yishuv. I would propose that we can have a subcategory under Category:Palestinian people called Category:Palestinian Jews or something along those lines. I am trying to figure out the political implications of such a categorization - on the one hand, it makes the point that there are lots of Jews native to the area prior to the establishment of Israel; on the other, it is consistent with the PLO charter that the Palestinian nationality has nothing to do with language (though it is supposed to be part of the pan-Arabic nation). --Leifern 22:11, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

If you find the Buddhists, by all means. But the Jewish minority has much more of a history.

Lapsed Pacifist 04:50, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

It does? What exactly is that history? An Israeli member of Neturei Karta acting as a propaganda-tool/"Minister of Jewish Affairs"? Please specify what you mean. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:09, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Neta Golan, a thirty-year-old Israeli peace activist and Buddhist, lives with her Palestinian husband in Ramallah See: http://www.ralphmag.org/BK/neta-golan.html --PinchasC 05:10, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Neturei Karta can point to a long tradition of living in Palestine, predating most Jewish settlement. Palestinian Buddhists do not have this history. But if you find more, by all means, include them.

Lapsed Pacifist 05:17, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Living in Palestine? Possibly. Depends on what you define as Palestine. They live in Israel. 1949 Armistice Lines Israel. I still haven't noticed them calling themselves "Palestinian". Have you? Jayjg ^(talk) 05:35, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

By their definition, 1949 Armistice Lines Israel is Palestine. By the PNC definition, most are Palestinian; by their own website's claims, they are Palestinian; and at least one has served in the Palestinian government, a post which would scarcely be opened to a non-Palestinian. The number of Palestinian Samaritans is significantly smaller, but, again, of special historical relevance. - Mustafaa 12:45, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

If you complain that they aren't notable enough for the intro, discussion of them (and, of course, the Samaritans) could be postponed to the religions section, and replaced in the intro with "others" or something, although by the PNC definition they might be as much as ~5%. However, they, like the Samaritans, certainly merit mention in the article - as would Palestinian Buddhists, in the unlikely event that there actually is a verifiable Palestinian Buddhist community. - Mustafaa 13:25, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Mustafaa, if the inclusion is controversial it should just be put lower down and its controvertiality noted.Heraclius 17:10, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

It might be relevant to put a description of them in the Religions section, provided it actually dealt in a factual way with their only theoretical/purely political existence. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:21, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

A brief description is already there (have you read this article yet?), and a minister in the PNA is rather more than a "theoretical" entity. - Mustafaa 18:52, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I see the description. "Minister of Photo Opportunities" is a real entity, but only in the realm of political theatre. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:32, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I would like to say that the Flag of the Palestinian people is that of the Arab Revolt, and anyone who says otherwise is a liar or seriously deluded. PJaz.

The caption on the flag in the info box says that the flag was adopted in 1948. Could whoever put that assertion in there please source it? Or anyone else? Please? Thanks. Until then, I'm taking it out. Tomer ^TALK 03:01, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

One link that it is 1948 is here. Also, the statement that this is the "widely recognized symbol of the Palestinian Authority" but not necessarily the Palestinian people is utter absolute rubbish. This flag has symbolized the Palestinian people long before there was any PA or PLO in fact. The colors of the flag are used by many Arabic speaking countries, but this specific pattern was adopted by the Palestinians a long time ago. Ramallite ^(talk) 03:13, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

The flag is a symbol of Palestinian nationalism wherever one goes. Hamas is put in a peculiar position in that nationalism goes against its Salafist "all for the ummah" views, but it still sees itself as a Palestinian nationalist group. Therefore, even Hamas members would look to the flag as a symbol of the Palestinian people.Heraclius 03:25, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Ramalite and Heraclius are quite correct. --Zero 04:31, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't think including a flag is appropriate. The Palestinian flag symbolizes a nationalist movement not an ethnic group. Also many Hamas members don't look to the flag as a symbol of the people, but a symbol of other nationalist factions. You may even notice they wave other flags at their rallies, with the Palestinian nationalist flag almost always absent. For the sake neutrality I think the flag should be removed. --Yodakii 14:56, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Read the text above. The flag symbolizes a nationalist movement because of the fact that it symbolizes (or has come to symbolize) the Palestinian people. Hamas people carry their party flag at rallies, but there is no dispute as to what the "Palestinian flag" is, and they are carried at Hamas rallies as well (unfortunately). Ramallite ^(talk) 15:34, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. The flag has always been an explicitely Arab nationalist symbol [1]. There is a dispute within Palestinian society as to whether or not the "Palestinian flag" represents the people. Besides a large anti-nationalist Islamic population, there are Israeli citizens and a diaspora population which includes people considered Palestinian who would identify more with their host governments' flags than the Palestinian one. I think the main reason the flag is mistaken to represent the entire people is because the nationalist faction for various political reasons is still the only one recognised by the "international community" as representing the people. This isn't a neutral position. If this article was about Palestinian nationalism, including the flag would be appropriate. This article is about the Palestinian people. The

Israeli flag is not the flag of all Jewish people, the Japanese flag is not flag of all Japanese people, and the Palestinian flag is not the flag of all Palestinian people. --Yodakii

17:12, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I honestly don't follow. First, I belong to Palestinian society (although admittedly not the diaspora community) and have never heard of the dispute you speak of. Second, if I understand your point, which I may not, do we not use a flag that represents a people because a number of individuals have emigrated to other countries and are now citizens of other countries? I've been to numerous Palestine-related functions abroad, and even though the event participants are citizens of their respective countries, the Palestinian flag is displayed as it is a Palestine-related event. Expatriates and their children often use the flag to symbolize their heritage, just like any expatriate community anywhere. Third, it is also the only flag recognized by Palestinians themselves as representing the Palestinian people, not just the international community (this pertains to the discussion above). Fourth, you seem to be splitting hairs unnecessarily, because I'm sure there are anarchists in every country who don't recognize the legitimacy of their national flag, but is that a reason to remove the flag from an encyclopedia? I don't know if you are of Palestinian heritage or not, but I definitely am, and if you don't want to take my opinion into consideration (most people don't when it comes to Palestine, heck I'm only Palestinian!!), would you at least consider getting other opinions before removing it? Thanks ;) Ramallite ^(talk) 17:50, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

• My heritage and yours doesn't count here.

When it comes to describing opinions on the discussion page, it helps in certain contexts. You stated "There is a dispute within Palestinian society as to whether or not the "Palestinian flag" represents the people" which to me is original research, and since you brought original research into this, I figured I would offer a more accurate perspective, and justify my "accuracy" by pointing out my heritage. This is a discussion page after all. The only source that comes close is this op-ed piece in which the writer laments the use of factional flags in rallies, but I cannot find evidence that certain Palestinian factions (even those talked about in the link) do not recognize the "Palestinian flag" as representing their nation. Ramallite ^(talk) 16:01, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• I think we're misunderstanding each other but I've never heard of using a flag to represent emigrants. Palestine-related events are almost always political and often organised by Palestinian nationalists and who are more visible at such events compared with other groups. When expatriates use a flag to represent themselves they make an explicity political statement.

Because of the unique situation of the Palestinian people and their lack of independence, it is inevitable that any such function is tied to nationalism. It's part of who the Palestinians are at this moment in time, for better or for worse. Also, many times, people looking at the conflict from the outside tend to confuse "political" with "humanitarian". Ramallite ^(talk) 16:01, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• The absence of other widely recognised flags is irrelevant.

Then we truly are misunderstanding each other, because if there is one "flag of Palestine" that Palestinians claim represents them, and there is no dispute over that (notwithstanding OR), and there are no other flags, widely recognized or not, I guess I fail to see your point. Ramallite ^(talk) 16:01, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• The existence of people who don't recognise the legitimacy of the flag means there isn't a consensus on the issue. It is reason enough to remove it from the article. There is a whole other article about the Palestinian flag in this encyclopedia (which could be expanded, by the way).

Again, do you have sourced material to back up your claim that there are Palestinians who "don't recognise the legitimacy of the flag"? Ramallite ^(talk) 16:01, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

--Yodakii 14:18, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Look, basically I object to having a large flag in such a prominent position in an article about an ethnic group. As a compromise, how about putting an image of the flag in the "nationality" or "representatives" section, somewhere near the image of Arafat (another widely recognised symbol of the Palestinian people)?

Again, I wish to have consensus from others who are familiar with the history of the flag (and can source such claims) other than myself (regardless of heritage). Perhaps you could ask other Wikipedians to weigh in, because I myself don't know who here would know enough about this subject. There must still be a misunderstanding, because I fail to see why you are making an issue out of what would be otherwise regarded as a non-issue. There is no dispute that I can find about the flag representing all Palestinians, regardless of the fact that Hamas prefers to display their factional flags at rallies (to show off). Have you seen the Hamas Emblem? As for Arafat, I would argue that there is enough evidence to apply your objections above to him. In other words, everything you said above regarding the dispute of who represents Palestinians is certainly more applicable to Arafat than the flag, because he represented the "leadership" and is now dead, and many factions or individuals did not regard him as their leader, while the flag is far more representative of the Palestinians then Arafat was. I don't think, based on sources that I can find, that the two are equivalent. Ramallite ^(talk) 16:01, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

--Yodakii 14:18, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I admit, the dispute I'm talking about is based on original research, as its based mostly on personal familiarity with members of Islamic groups such as Muslim Brothers and others among Palestinians who consider the Palestinian flag a colonial and nationalist symbol. I haven't found any sources showing Palestinians explicitly rejecting the national flag. But I think it is a well-known fact that many Muslims are anti-nationalist and rejection of nationalist symbols would go without saying. The piece you link to illustrates nationalists' intolerance of other banners besides their own and confirms somewhat what I know, that the Palestinian flag is seen as another factional flag by some people. But its not English, and I haven't found any sources myself... In any case, I still think keeping the Palestinian flag at the top of the article is a nationalist POV. I haven't found any other articles about an ethnic group in wikipedia that displays a national flag, whether that is deliberate or not, I think it makes sense. I don't know where to look for other opinions here. ... anyone reading who has an opinion on this: please share! (especially if you agree with me) --Yodakii 16:08, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

If your objections are based on the fact that other articles you looked at don't have a flag, I guess my response would be that, although there is no real reason to remove it (in my mind), there is no absolute necessity to have it. If nobody else weighs in during the weekend, and you still feel strongly about it, I won't object to it being reduced in size or removed, but it would be nice to have some other illustration, like a dance troupe or something similar, for example, like here. Ramallite ^(talk) 18:15, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Is there any way to center the flag than the Arab table?Heraclius 23:52, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

I think the flag should be replaced with the word "Allah" written in purple Arabic caligraphy. --Zeno of Elea 00:04, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

False parallel, the reason being that there is no dispute amongst the Palestinian community about whether or not the flag is a symbol of the Palestinian people. That was a nice try, though.Heraclius 00:07, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

I've centered the image (look at the diff to see how). I still hold in doubt the assertion that it was adopted in 1948 as the banner of the Palestinian people...the "history" given at Ramallite's webreference sounds pretty revisionist to me. Until I have something concrete to argue against it, however, I'll just leave it be. Tomer ^TALK 02:25, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

Sources for Zuhayr Muhsin (used to be Zuhair Mohsen) which are probably too specialised to attach to the article:

• http://www.al-bab.com/arab/countries/palestine/biogCM.htm (Syria's appointee to PLO-EC)
• Anders Strindberg, The Damascus-Based Alliance of Palestinian Forces: A Primer, Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. 29, No. 3. (Spring, 2000), pp. 60-76. (Sa'iqa fully funded by Syria)

While I'm typing, I'll dispose of another common quote that does not belong in the article.

--Zero 13:40, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

This article needs fixing my an entire section accidently got deleted while I was correcting spelling (read accident as household pet on keyboard).

I don't know why my changes were removed. they all fixed contradictions in the article itself. Not all Palestinians come from "Palestine". many come from other places, like Syria and Lebanon, and if youre going to claim that Neturei kara are palestinians, then you can't claim they came from "Palestine". The article also says that whether Arab Israelis are Palestinian or not is debated, then in the next sentence says that theyre palestinian. that's a contradiction. next you claim that a unique accent is a feature of Palestinians, then say only rural palestinians have it. that's another contradiction. so I fixed it to say that rural palestinians have it. next you claim "many" Palestinans thought Palestine was their country, but the whole paragraph above says mostly the opposite, and you provide no proof it was many. John McW 00:18, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

This from the article:

"The current draft of the Palestinian constitution, which will take effect should the Palestinian Authority be dismantled and an independent state is established, states that: "Palestinian citizenship shall be organized by law without prejudicing the right of anyone who acquired it before 15 May 1948 in accordance with the law or the right of the Palestinian who was resident in Palestine before that date. This right is transmitted from fathers and mothers to their children. The right endures unless it is given up voluntarily." [1]

Let's see now...am I getting this right? There is no Palestinian State at this point, but if there is one, then anyone who was a Palestinian citizen 60-odd years ago ...what? And if it isn't your state anymore, then how can you determine what your 'rights' are. The Israelis decide who lives in Israel. There was never a state called Palestine. It was an area, a neighborhood, which included Jordan, West Bank.. see "Palestine Under British Mandate Map here: MAP To call Jews "Palestinians" (line 1) today seems a rather disingenuous way to claim ownership of all of Israel under the nomen of "Palestine". Juanita 02:37, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

You probably misunderstood - the constitution is for a State of Palestine that was supposed to be the outcome of the final status agreements with Israel (that never took place) and is now envisioned in the Road Map. Also, what you added about all inhabitants of British mandate territory being call "Palestinians" I don't think is true, because the name "transjordan" quickly took precedence according to what I've read.

---- the speed by which the name changes means little. Look at the speed with which the name "Palestinian" became associated with Arabs only, just since 1967! A linquistic vacuum developed when Israel became a modern state and called her citizens Israelis. Israel by becoming 'Israelis',(which they have only been for ~58 years of so, this time round) left it open for the Arabs to identify themselves as "Palestinians" and today they are in reality the ONLY Palestinians. To say that Jews are Palestinians today is disingenuous, to say the least. Juanita

Jayg, as for that last edit, I don't have a reference as of now which says what was added in so many words, however I have done a little searching and found many sites that mention both of those new points in passing. One good example is this one: http://www.cafearabica.com/issue1/sections/culture/farah&hanan/commit2.html The author of that site is talking about an organisation dedicated to Palestinian culture. She mentions "Arab and specifically Palestinian culture," and talks about collecting Palestinian and Syrian (another Arabic culture) artifacts. I am not sure about how citation works on Wikipedia, I'll check on that if you want a link to that and/or some other pages which corroborate this point. It seems, though, a pretty minor and uncontroversial point, and this might be needless clutter for the external links. She also mentions a bit about the history (in terms of the cultural artifacts she is interested in) in "Gauze from Gaza, damask from Damascus." This is at least reference to the information I added - that Palestinian culture is Arabic, and the Mediterranean region is historically well-travelled (involved in trade, what have you). The history of other nearby countries has resulted in a similar situation to the one I pointed out in my edit. For example, check out Demographics of Lebanon for corroboration that historical diversity of population is a typical feature of this region. Still, Lebanese culture is generally considered Arabic.

I have been consulting Wikipedia and contributing occasionally on and off for a few years, but I only recently registered as a contributor. Is it common practice to simply delete an edit if you have a question about it? Excuse me if I'm mistaken, but I thought it was supposed to be discussed first. That said, I would like to restore my edit, but I won't do so immediately in case I'm missing something important - awaiting contributions from you or others. Joomba 09:50, 8 November 2005 (UTC)Joomba

The edit was highly POV - please review

WP:NPOV to understand the issue. Jayjg ^(talk)

23:32, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I must ask you to be more specific in your objections. I actually have reviewed that page in the past, again more recently, and briefly again now. Also, I would like you to go over section 9.7 of that page.

You added the following text: "While most Palestinians define themselves as Arabs, their ancestry is most probably a combination of many tribes that inhabited the region over many centuries. This is typical, of many modern populations defining themselves as Arab - especially in the historically well-traveled Mediterranean region. Palestinian culture is steadfastly Arabic." The claims you added are points of view - what evidence do you have to back them up? How do you know that this is "typical"? What does a cultre being "steadfastly Arabic" even mean? And what is section 9.7 of the page - it only goes up to section 6. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:15, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I meant

section 9.7 of this page. Also, you're mistaken: the only lines I added were "This is typical, (comma sic) of many modern populations defining themselves as Arab - especially in the historically well-traveled Mediterranean region. Palestinian culture is steadfastly Arabic." Please view the article's history. As support for my additions, however, I provided a reference to the demographics of Lebanon page (showing that other modern Arab populations are both Arabic in culture and ancestrally diverse), and a link to an archivist of Palestinian culture who mentions "Arab and specifically Palestinian culture," and talks about collecting Palestinian and Syrian (the significance being that Syrians are also Arabs, and are culturally similar) cultural artifacts as part of her work. Why did you ignore these pieces of evidence? Did you miss them? All you have done is reiterated that you feel my additions were POV. I have provided links, and you seem to have missed them. Anyway, the first sentence is entirely verifiable, and therefore not POV. Perhaps "steadfastly" was not the clearest word to use, but the point stands. I will omit that. If you have something to add, more than reiteration of your objection, please do.Joomba

10:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Humus Sapiens, I have to object to your most recent edit. You said it was in order to NPOV the article, however I don't think that helped at all. Also, the word "Semitic" can refer to the people. Check out this entry from Webster's: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=semitic and this entry from Oxford http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/semite?view=uk. I think that pretty much wraps up that issue. As far as saying that the Palestinians themselvs make this claim, I think that would require a lot of qualifications (which Palestinians, and says who) and evidence, whereas saying that they "are considered" as such, as was written in the last edit, is NPOV, because it relies on the facts (the facts listed in the very next sentences, which you left unchanged). I assume you don't dispute the validity of these facts, so in what way is your change more NPOV?

First, in the future please type ~~~~ to auto-sign your posts in Talk.

Second, sorry, I'll have to disappoint you: in modern context, "semitic" does indeed refer to languages and your links actually confirm that (thank you). We are not using ancient or religious terminology here, and it won't help you anyway. The phrase "

Semetic

people" was very bad.

Third: "Palestinians are considered to have a very mixed ancestry" -- by whom? Proof please. Ironically, in

another article some editors insist that "Zionism is racism". I am looking forward to you telling them that it's impossible to have racism against "very mixed ancestry". Cheers. ←Humus sapiens←ну?

11:25, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry about the lack of signature. I checked the two links again, and I don't see where they confirm your contention. As for their use (neither is marked as archaic), I will paste what the sources say here: ' a member of a people speaking a Semitic language, in particular the Jews and Arabs.' and 'A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.' Both sources say that "Semite" and "Semitic" can mean "Arab". Yes, they do refer to the languages as well, but as I'm sure you're aware, plenty of words have more than one meaning. See, for example, http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=French . I'm not sure what you mean by "help" me, but until I see some evidence that the words "Semite" and "Semitic" are not valid in the way they were used originally, I think we have to consider your position unsupported, and the original usage supported by two important English dictionaries.

I can accept that "are considered" requires too much qualification and needs rewording. However, I will point out again that your rewording is not helpful in this respect. Not only does it require citation as well, but it is much more contentious - it violates [article 6] by implying that this stance is somehow unreliable because it originates from Palestinians (you may find some examples of Palestinians who take this stance, but without massive clarification and setting bounds on the use of the word it will still be a characterisation) and is without independent support. A better rewording can be found. In any case, there is support for the position - that the Palestinians have a mixed ancestry - in the very article, and in fact in the next few lines themselves.

Anyway, any good anthropology book will tell you that race is a social construct, and is in the eye of the beholder. Whatever ones ancestry is, mixed or not, one can be the victim of racism simply by being perceived a member of a certain "race" by someone else. That's not really relevant to what we're talking about. Awaiting your response before making fixes. Joomba 10:14, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

We are not that far apart. Of course we are talking about people. But it is not Semitic people but rather people speaking S. languages. Including into this group the Romans and Crusaders is plain wrong. By "won't help", I simply meant that such definition is too broad and therefore is conterproductive = unhelpful.

I do not contest their mixed ethno-religious ancestry. IMHO, "are considered" (by whom?) is even worse than "they claim" (I realize the Palestinians have wildly different opinions, but at least the reader would know where to start). In a serious encyclopedia, I would prefer to have "According to scholar X ..." Cheers. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 11:50, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Can anybody provide a serious source or citation for the "Jews, Romans, Arabs, Crusaders, and other people have all settled in the region and intermarried" claim? The two citations provided link to partisan sites, one of which claims Palestinian ancestry to the Canaanites. Please provide an academic source for significant amount of Jews having remained in Palestine after 300 CE and intermarried with the other groups cited.

Unfortunately (for some), there are some topics that only parties of direct relation will write about that foreign parties will have no interest in. If a Ukrainian publication writes about the history of the Ukrainian people, I don't think anybody would call that 'partisan'. At the same time, I don't think Greek historians would have much interest in writing about the Ukrainian people. As such, it seems that Palestinians are the only people in the world who are not allowed to write any sort of history about themselves without having a 'partisan' or 'biased' label automatically attached. So please keep in mind two completely radical concepts: One, not everything written about the Palestinian people is automatically political, and two, Palestinians (or the non-Jewish natives of the holy land, whatever you wish to call them) are human beings too, and it is not a far-fetched idea that human beings love and marry other natives of the same land. Ramallite ^(talk) 13:50, 24 May 2006 (UTC)