Talk:Ribbon (computing)/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

The ribbon in Office does not lack keyboard accessibility. Just press alt, and there you go... (84.31.63.81 19:46, 21 December 2006 (UTC))

08:22 Bnis 8h mit Ribbons (runtergedaldener Source) beschäftigt, gehe nun raus mit Hund, Getränke kaufen und leg mich um 10 Uhr hin.

What is that BS about signing NDA to get Ribbon design guidelines? They are available for download right here: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/office/aa973809.aspx 71.117.4.238 21:43, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Then what is this? "Microsoft Evaluation License: 2007 Microsoft Office System User Interface". In short, you need to agree to these terms to get the evaluation copy. Quoting the web page:

CONFIDENTIALITY. The Design Guidelines, and the terms of this Agreement, are Microsoft’s confidential information. You cannot disclose them to anyone else without Microsoft’s prior written approval. However, you may disclose them to your contractors who have a need to know as long as they also agree to abide by the terms of this agreement.

Sounds like a non-disclosure agreement to me. I'll cite this link in the article, thanks. -- intgr 00:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

It may just be me, especially since I haven't had a chance to play with 2007's version, but this interface seems rather familiar to what MicroStation uses. Am I kind of right or am I way off? Lady BlahDeBlah 22:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I have added the neutrality tag to the Controversy section in the article. Microsoft may be spreading

Removed the statement. I agree that it's purely speculation at this point. I don't think we're going to find out soon, given that there is no reason to agree to Microsoft's license in the first place (free software applications would have to re-implement the functionality anyway). PS: you're welcome to do such edits yourself. -- intgr ^#%@! 20:38, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I prefer to leave such possibly controversial edits to users that have been working on the article for a longer period of time, especially since IP edits are very often considered vandalism (even if it wasn't) and removed. The current paragraph is much better, thanks. 129.187.100.141 09:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

<flame> I can not say but that this new cool Microsoft feature reminds me of macinosh one-menu for all applications design. It is also context driven (window). And this office logo is similar to something i saw once on macintosh keyboard...no, it was not made in Microsoft labs neither. And maybe they call it ribb...;) nah Microsoft has been original at least there(?). </flame> —Preceding unsigned comment added by Calwaxfish (talk • contribs)

Please keep in mind that Wikipedia talk pages are for discussing the article, not for expressing your opinions about the subject. If you can't find any

reliable sources to incorporate this into the article, it's irrelevant. Happy editing! -- intgr ^#%@!

11:49, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

tab + "combobox" = ribbon . Tab as a elements grouped together, as seen on browser since opera(?). Combobox in a way its element is enlarged when possible. Well i think that rather than combobox better would be tab+menu = ribbon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kauldron (talk • contribs) 12:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Fully aware I might be writing these lines in vain, I have the impression that ribbons, or how the concept is described in the article, have been around for years, notably in early 90ies file managers and a class of programs called trackers . Effectively, I don't think it's a Microsoft Office2007 innovation . Would be great to have expert opinion on this .

Always in good faith, 85.74.237.213 04:33, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

We don't need an "expert" we just need a source comparing the functionality of this widget with something older. -- intgr [talk] 12:45, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

be in a GUI. open some menu. for each group of commands: (imagine you) change linear positionning of commands into circular (see

avl_tree

;). rotate it 90 degrees (it does not matter actually). voíla.

this is but a mere change in topology, nothing else. breaking of second level of hierarchy (counting from 1) you get basic commands + groups. it has been done by already mentioned toolboxes (usually grouped by tabs;). it is basically act of hoisting. i think it is just a "by removing one bit from heap, do you still have a heap? when you don't have heap?" - some greek philosopher was groking it.

for

some funny legal implications (IANAL) - but contains good informations (links) + documents some issues of ribbon ! http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/1617

i hope it will make people to experiment and try to do _user_friendly_ applications. by that i do not mean graphics lumber but simple and sane yet powerful use.

innovation? didn't you ment invention? it clearly is innovation (kind of :) and it is not invention.

Cc..aa..ll (talk) 22:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Here is the link to a comment by an MS employee where it's stated they have pending patent(s) on the Ribbon concept, among other office UI things: http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/archive/2006/11/21/licensing-the-2007-microsoft-office-user-interface.aspx#1123764

I was going to add the cite to the article myself but the tagging is way too complicated for me to figure out, so could someone else please do it? Thanks --67.160.118.193 (talk) 13:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Done —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.10.253.10 (talk) 13:54, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The image

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:

• File:MindManagerFluentUI.jpg

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --09:33, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Huh! Where's the picture now, stupid robot? Æåm Fætsøn (talk) 22:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

As I have said on the talk page of Office 2007, the official name is the Microsoft Office Fluent Interface. While commonly and unofficially referred to as the ribbon, the article title should change to reflect the proper name, even if it is to drop the "Microsoft Office" part - although I doubt we'd see other software with a similar UI unless it was licensed out by Microsoft. Danj205 05:17, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong. Microsoft itself says: "The menus and toolbars in some programs have been replaced with the Ribbon, which is part of the Microsoft Office Fluent user interface" (http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/help/HA100898951033.aspx) Jalwikip (talk) 07:33, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

This edit was discussed at

Give me a break. I haven't worked for Microsoft for seven years. I don't know anyone who works on Office, and I don't know anyone involved in the implementation of this feature. My "conflict of interest" here is no greater than that of any of the legions of FOSS devotees who write articles about programs and features they use and know and like, which is exactly what they should be doing. If you have a problem with the accuracy of what I wrote, then let's hear it. Otherwise this all just looks like an attempt to mau-mau people who make accurate but unwelcome edits. —phh (^t/_c) 16:27, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

An editor complained about a specific edit that has obvious (if mostly benign)

an interest is not a conflict of interest) then they would be subject to exactly the same rules as you are. -- samj _in^out

16:32, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

What other policy violations, exactly? Here's the edit:

Some critics contend that the ribbon concept has historically appeared extensively as "tabbed toolbars" in applications such as Macromedia HomeSite, Dreamweaver and Borland Delphi.[6] However, most of these implementations are not intended to entirely supplant an application's main menu bar and toolbars, as the Ribbon does,[9] and do not include a number of features that distinguish the Ribbon UI, such as dynamic scaling[10] and extensibility.

The Ribbon user interface widget was developed, named, and defined by Microsoft. It is not the same thing as a tabbed toolbar. A defining characteristic of a Ribbon is that it replaces the main menu bar in an application. If a thing does not replace the main menu bar, then by definition it is not a Ribbon. To claim otherwise is like saying that a

Dock is a kind of taskbar

: they are similar, and pointing out that similarity is thoroughly legitimate, but they are not synonymous and it is inaccurate to claim that they are.

I did also make another change in that edit: I replaced a reference to Jarosław Staniek, a non-notable KDE developer who is referenced nowhere else on Wikipedia, with a more general statement that makes the tabbed-toolbar charge sound more like a legitimate argument and less like what may well be the isolated ravings of a single crank. I promise I will never make that mistake again, and if someone wants to change it back I certainly won't argue. —phh (^t/_c) 17:02, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

The only reason we're discussing this is because another editor was sufficiently upset as to complain about it at

WP:COI relating to your [ex-]employer (yes, even ex-employees have conflicts sometimes). -- samj _in^out

17:19, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

(For a fun mental exercise, try applying your verifiability, original research, self-published source, and NPOV arguments to Jarosław Staniek's blog post, which remains a cited source in this article to this day. I'm sure you'll want to waste no further time in scurrying off to lecture the person who originally added it to the article, yes? Off you go then, there's a good fellow.) —phh (^t/_c) 19:23, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok I'll spell it out for you. Here's your first claim,

verifiable

?

However, most of these implementations are not intended to entirely supplant an application's main menu bar and toolbars, as the Ribbon does,^[1]

I'm responding to a specific complaint that was made about your editing - you're welcome to use the very same processes to complain about other editors if you wish, but being

uncivil with people called in to assist is unnecessary. -- samj _in^out

22:45, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Do you know what Homesite, Dreamweaver, and Delphi all have? Main menu bars. Ergo, the tabbed toolbars (not Ribbons) in those applications did not supplant them. QED! If you really want me to supply references for the fact that HomeSite, Dreamweaver, and Delphi have main menu bars, I'll do it, but I'm holding out hope that you'll give up your sad wikilawyering instead. That's how you can demonstrate that you have an interest in interacting civilly. You've certainly displayed no such interest up till now. —phh (t/_c) 05:27, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

The much older SIMION 8 application, posted by another contributor uses a tabbed toolbar as it's primary functionality with only 'File' and 'Help' left in the main menu. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.193.96.114 (talk) 19:42, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

The great thing about consensus is that it's not just the two of us who get to participate. Given I couldn't really care less about the subject (beyond the fact that you have made sufficiently contentious edits while having a provable potential conflict of interest as to have been reported at

phh's edites seem totally reasonable. I believe his edits are being questioned because (unlike the majority of commentors here) dares not enforce the ANTI-EVERYTHING-MS POV that pervades wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.47.86.27 (talk) 10:48, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

However, most of these implementations are not intended to entirely supplant an application's main menu bar and toolbars, as the Ribbon does,^[2]

Thank God they put the fn menu bar back in Office 2008. The ribbon interface IS A LIVING HELL. The application is UNUSABLE; it doesn't have any menubar!!! I have to use this garbage at another location, and I hate it with a passion. How the hell is it possible that Microsoft's entire Windows Office Suite no longer conforms to the Windows user interface?!?!?!?!? WTF These days you need a Macintosh just to be able to use a version of Microsoft Word that operates in a common sense manner... and you're stuck with the newest ones because of those irritating, bloated .docx files.

A lot has changed with Windows 7. Many of the impassioned arguments above, and statements in the article itself, are looking dated in light of recent changes. For example, Microsoft does now have some ribbon UI guidlines freely available on MSDN. I'm just starting to read up on the subject (I'm a sysadmin, not a developer), so I may not be the best person to start committing edits (but I may still try :). Still, someone should do it, because the advent of the "scenic ribbon" API will warrant some major structural changes in the article. Pelagic (talk) 14:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

The Patent Protection section, as it stands, is a mish-mash of unrelated information. I think to salvage this, it will be necesary to introduce some new section headings, which will need to be filled out with more content. Pelagic (talk) 14:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I forgot what company it was, but there was a company I recall that implemented at most some part of the original office 2007 interface. Its name was somewhere along the lines a 3 letter abbreviation with a B in it. Can someone identify this? ChazZeromus (talk) 21:34, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

"Microsoft claims that his will improve...". Is the word "claim" just a little bit weasely to anyone else?--91.84.69.180 (talk) 21:02, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I think "claim" is pretty standard phrasing in this context. It would have been weasely if you replaced "claims" with "alleges".--66.92.218.124 (talk) 19:41, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is text-book weasel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.47.86.27 (talk) 10:41, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

As there haven't been any long term studies "claim" is just the right term to express there is a hypothesis that ribbons work for the users, but that this hasn't been verified yet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.127.117.77 (talk) 16:53, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Damn I hate the ribbon.. and yes, "claim" would be the right word..-- XCheese360 ^1336.999992 11:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Reading the article didn't tell me what a "ribbon" is: it is described in terms of things like "sets of tabs" (you have to look elsewhere to find out what they are). A bit like the description of a motorcycle in chapter 6 of "Zen and the Art of Motorcyle Maitenance", it's only understandable if you already know what it does.

I would appreciate somebody describing how you operate this thing, both with mouse and keyboard, how much of it you can see at a time (the screenshot makes it look very restricted), and how the thing reacts. Can you expand it up to full screen size? Can you make it disappear until you need it again? What is the essential feature of a ribbon that makes it new and different?

Would it be possible to describe briefly here what is meant by a "tab"? The article for "tab" is also not easy to grasp. It describes a tab in terms of "widgets". The article for "widget" is a bit vague. It's all very confusing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AMackenzie (talk • contribs) 18:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Good suggestion. The term "Ribbon" was pushed by Microsoft, and I do not think it was really used before that, but the concept is older, and pretty simple. I guess it is realy just closely spaced buttons that are placed on tabs. A tab is a like a physical tab, coming from the Apple-promoted desktop metaphor, and compares to manila envelopes in a filing cabinet. Scientus (talk) 08:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

AutoCAD has had a optional Ribbon (I don't think they called it that in the beginning) since vers. 2004 (released in March 2003). It has become the standard interface (you can change back to tool-bar and menus if you want) since version 2008 (released in March 2007).

AutoDesk

has implemented "Ribbons" in most of their other software since 2005 as well.

So, what do I want to say? The usage of "Ribbons" stretches further back then 2007 and Microsoft are not the only developers using it, maybe we should rewrite this article to be broader in scope, instead of just concentrating on MS Office. ::-Lumber Jack- (talk) 21:52, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, thats the reason for Jarosław Staniek's blog post. It would be great to have more on other examples, and less advertising fluff on Microsoft's unoriginal implementation.Scientus (talk) 22:32, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

This section undoubtedly belongs in the article, but I agree with the IP editor that it is skewed a little to far to one side. Surely someone has given Microsoft's opinion in response, in reliable sources? A would say pruning, and addition of the other side's position, is better than removing an entire section. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:30, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Why do you think that some pure opinion of some arbitrary ex contracter of MS should be in the article ? Is wikpedia some platform for ex-employees to critisise their former employers or a encyclopedia providing neutral information? If opinions on the Ribbon interface were to be added added they should be from known expert GUI designers or from experiences by massive amounts of users. This article does not even mention how revolutionairy the Ribbon interface is in the context of the most used software interface completly changing and how this impacts computer users all over the world but the article does have an overly large section on supposed patent controversies. Actually not even on any actual controversy but on possible future controversies as the POV hangs on pure asumptions on why MS has patented the ribbon and also are critisisms by individuals that are predispositioned and/or have towards MS in general anyways. In fact we all know ICT companies have for years patented every piece of software they produce. That has been standard common practise since MS gets sued every other week by some patent troll and is not particularly not relevant or specifically controversial for the ribbon interface. Microsoft will get patents on Windows software, Office, SQL server, .NET, and on no doubt any other piece of software they produce. As will Apple, as will IBM. 86.83.239.142 (talk) 21:44, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I've removed one of the two sources (the "arbitrary ex contractor"), as his comments all came from what I interpret to be non-

dispute resolution. --Floquenbeam (talk

) 22:07, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The remaining part in the section now states:

Proponents of free software, such as KDE developer Jarosław Staniek,[13] have expressed beliefs that the patent cannot be acquired due to the ambiguity of prior art

The reference given to mr Stanieks blog does NOT mention the word "patent", and it also does NOT mention the words "prior art" nor does it suggest anything on those issues for other proponents of free software. How can that part of the article be correct. 86.83.239.142 (talk) 08:54, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

@86.83.239.142: Nobody is saying that the section has to remain how it is now. This section is not supposed to convey "the opinion of Mike Gunderloy", but the fact that Microsoft is strongly suggesting that they have patents covering this UI element, or that they are in the process of acquiring such patents.

And this is where it gets interesting: By their story, any developer wishing to use this element has to get a license, which involves signing a NDA, so the developer is not allowed to come back and talk about what the license entails. However, nobody has actually shown any proof of a granted patent, and many people doubt that it's patentable at all -- making Microsoft's licensing campaign moot.

The section can certainly be improved, but surely this is relevant to the article. For me personally, the controversy is more significant than the ribbon itself. I haven't even seen Office 2007, but the controversy is how I actually learned what the ribbon is. -- intgr [talk] 22:32, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

You now make very clear that you are actually interested in the POV (controversy) element of the section you are trying to rescue where before you claimed to revert on procedural basis. I already suspected that you actually supported the POV views that were in that section. As nobody has shown in the article proof of any patent existing nor of any intention by MS of using such a patent the whole section is moot. The basic situation that MS since the introduction of patent trolls now files patents on any piece of software they make (which might not be granted) is not worth a section here. 86.83.239.142 (talk) 10:17, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Well I finally found the time to research this issue. I renamed the section from "patent controversy" to "ribbon user interface licensing" and revamped the whole thing, throwing out any claims not supported by reliable sources. Indeed, there are no reliable references (that I found) which directly address the issues of patentability/prior art, so I removed all that. Can you agree with the two sections as they stand now?

"You now make very clear that you are actually interested in the POV (controversy) element of the section you are trying to rescue where before you claimed to revert on procedural basis." — Well obviously I wouldn't revert if I didn't care about the removed content. I reverted because researching these issues takes time. You will note that I never claimed that the old section was correct, substantiated or neutrally covered. -- intgr [talk] 18:38, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Better, but I am intruigued why you added the extremly anti-MS biased Groklaw blog bullshit which is totally unreliable in any interpretation of patent related issues. I hope you do know that for example W3C royalty free licensing is also non-sublicenseable [1]. If Pamela Jones were correct about sublicenses being required for free software then free software would not be able to use W3C HTML or XML standard because the licensing of W3C participants is non-sublicenseable. 86.83.239.142 (talk) 22:19, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm having a hard time finding an actual complaint in your rant. The article as it stands factually reports and attributes what PJ stated. There are numerous precedents for considering Groklaw a reliable source for law-related issues. So leave phrases like "extremly (sic) anti-MS biased [...] bullshit [...] totally unreliable" to your blog comment threads. I believe PJ is more competent on the issues of open source licensing than you are.

You should really leave the law to the lawyers. But OK, I'll bite. When was the last time you signed a licensing contract with some company to implement a W3C standard? In the case of the MS license, there is a contract between the developer and the proprietor. And not only is it a patent license (if they have any patents to begin with) -- it's also a non-disclosure agreement and a copyright/trademark license. So these instances are not really comparable. -- intgr [talk] 08:43, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

My complaint is that with the biased pamela interpretation on MS licenses you suggest that a Microsoft license is non compatible with free software licenses due to a clause that is commenly used for Open Standards (required clause even in W3C licenses). So if the pamela interpretation were correct then open software licenses would by definition be incompatible with open standards. 62.58.36.58 (talk) 10:15, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

First, this is not what I suggest. This is what PJ states, I am making no correctness claims about it.

Verifiability, not truth

.

Second, as I explained above, the two situations aren't even comparable. Patents covering W3C standards are licensed world-wide, to everyone, and there is no contract with the developer. The MS ribbon license is much more than that. If you want to claim that these two licenses are comparable then this is your

synthesis -- unless you can find a reliable source for the claim. -- intgr [talk]

10:38, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually the exact part you added to this article is very comparable. You placed in the article a clear to read claim that the license is not compatible with open software [b]because[/b] it is not sublicenseable. That however is NOT true as virtually all open source uses openstandards which hasve non-licenseable licensing as common practice. It is a pure and evident lie by someone who is extremly biased and wants to dicredit MS in virtually every blogpost she makes 86.83.239.142 (talk) 07:30, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

So when was the last time you signed a contract and a non-disclosure agreement with someone to implement an open standard? That standard wouldn't really be an "open standard" then, would it?

The point I'm trying to make is that one is a plain world-wide patent license by a single entity (the patent holder). The other is a contract between two entities — MS and the developer. This contract includes a non-disclosure agreement, a patent license, a copyright license (for using MS's libraries) and a trademark license. They are radically different things, but you are only concentrating on the fact that these two licenses use the same term, "non-sublicensable". Even if you have the legal competence to judge that the two are similar, this would be

original research

or synthesis.

Also you have no evidence to suggest that most open standards are actually covered by patents. -- intgr [talk] 08:40, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Very interesting you find the contract and non-diclosure agredements interesting but those are not part of the article part disputed. I just object to the non-sublicensable related claim that you did add to the article and which are big fat lies by Pamela Jones who should be well aware that non-sublicenseable licenses are common the open standards world.

And just to remind you it is normal for any licensing agreement ot have a non disclosreagrement in it a you do not want things like the licesing price and other deal specifics to be out in the open. I suggest you change the article to remove the non-sublicensable bullshitt claims by the well known anti-MS blog.

And yes I do now of tons of patents that apply to open standards but that has no relation to this article.86.83.239.142 (talk) 21:48, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

User:hAl was indefinitely blocked in November for disruptive editing, continued edit warring, and editing against consensus. He has recently made extensive edits here under the IP address 86.83.239.142, which is now also blocked. Editors here may wish to review the net effect of edits made here in the light of this. --Nigelj (talk) 21:01, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm itching to add the {{advert}} template to this. It's not as bad as some articles I've seen, but it still reads like it was authored by Microsoft itself, with disadvantages and disagreeing viewpoints tacked onto the unaltered document. The pretentious capitalization of "The Ribbon" throughout the article probably contributes to this impression, so I'll change that right now.

Related complaints follow:

• The first sentence describes the general "Tabbed Toolbars" interface, which suggests that that is the subject of the entire article. Instead, the entire article is about Microsoft's implementation of tabbed toolbars.
• The section "Background on the Ribbon interface" is totally incoherent. What was the author of that section trying to say? There's a parenthetical remark that doesn't seem to have anything to do with the sentence that contains it, there's nothing about the version in which the useless Office Assistant was introduced or what it has to do with the ribbon interface, and it's impossible for me to figure out what the referrent of "this" is in the final sentence.
• The article acknowledges that Microsoft only invented the name, but it mostly reads like Microsoft is claiming that they invented the very concept.

--Proginoskes (talk) 20:55, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Capitalization of the term 'ribbon' is used inconsistently - would have edited, but not sure which form is to be used best... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.110.71.122 (talk) 09:02, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

While the first and last paragraphs of the "Reaction to Interface" section have multiple citations backing up their statements, the other 60% of the section is entirely unsourced and sounds very much like someone's personal gripes against the new interface. It should be cleaned up and sourced. Even better, are there any usability studies or analyses out there about the Ribbon? Abeger (talk) 16:14, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if anyone is interested in adding more examples, but I know 3D-drafting software SolidWorks has a RibbonUI-like interface as of the 2009 version. Josejuan05 (talk) 17:48, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

PDF files have inbuilt tool ribbons.86.42.200.14 (talk

) 07:30, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

The cited link doesn't seem to back up the claim. All I get from it is that the ribbon will be improved to make it easier to use. I wouldn't want to remove that text if there is a citation elsewhere though. --carelesshx _talk 00:42, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I really doubt it. If anything, Microsoft could make the old UI optional, but I don't think they would back out entirely. I have removed this claim, because it was added by the same IP user who also added the statement "It is terrible". Just doesn't sound like a good-faith edit. -- intgr [talk] 03:02, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I tried 2007 and gave up trying to guess where the commands I needed were now stored "intuitively." Not everyone needs the parts that they think should be "up front." I.e., I don't do any printing at all on my system. They expect us to forget 20 years of learning the Windows menus so that we can look at icons? let 'em plummet! WHPratt (talk) 14:32, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Quote from the blog entry source - "Gunderloy, an Evansville, Ind.-based freelance developer for the past quarter century, goes way back with Microsoft. I was never a full-time employee, but have several times been a contractor with a badge and [Redmond] campus access, he says." Removing misleading references to this contractor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.155.128 (talk) 04:46, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Contractors do not "leave the company," their contracts expire and they may or may not have their contracts renewed after a 100-day hiatus. Also, why are the words of a disgruntled Microsoft contractor given this much weight? This section sounds very POV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.83.30 (talk) 18:34, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

I've reverted again

This edit was not reverted because its meaning is unrelated to the sources provided, but because the assertions in it are a matter of opinion and speculation. According to policy, Wikipedia only includes opinions when attributed to the people that expressed them,

not stated as fact. Also, the links to the "solutions" are not relevant sources.Diego (talk

) 20:28, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Yura87 (talk) 09:53, 1 November 2011 (UTC) To get rid of the unwanted extra clicks, individual tools or "boxes" (such as "color fill", "spray", "tools, "copy", "paste", "edit") can be "pinned" into a special bar, which, in turn, can be embedded in window title bar, or be a bar below the Ribbon itself. By pinning those tools/boxes to the pinning bar, all you have to "learn" is the single-menu button. Also, by having most tools pinned, you can keep your Ribbon hidden for most of the time, which can be especially helpful on smaller screens (e.q. laptops)

To train new users for the Ribbon GUI, Microsoft altered Paint and WordPad (which were unchanged through Vista).

[If you use WordPad for quick-and-dirty note taking and find the new interface intolerable in this context, be advised that you can copy the WordPad XP .exe to your win 7 installation and use it instead. WHPratt (talk) 12:56, 1 November 2011 (UTC) ]

To train new users for the Ribbon GUI,

Microsoft altered Paint and WordPad (which were unchanged through Vista).

Excuse me, but I don't want to be trained into "gay computing" ;-P 186.220.190.67 (talk) 18:10, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

MS have made an API for the ribbon, hence their attempt at trying to publicise it through Paint and WordPad on Windows 7

90.192.154.96 (talk) 21:36, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I think about adding more information about what controls this UI is made of (Tabs, Groupboxes...), and about MS's Ribbon UI, and the differences between 2007's version and 2010's version (like adding the backstage), adopting it by others & other MS products, the source code given by MS (for WPF), and the attempts to fit it to other platforms like Java and Linux. Detailed information about the Ribbon UI of MS can be given from here: Ribbons. Galzigler (talk) 13:49, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Any comment? Agree or not? Anyway, I'm planning to start working on it in a "sandbox" under this talk page, when there will be any comments from the users here saying it's necessary for this article. Galzigler (talk) 13:19, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a

Just write the content you think is needed, it will be easier to evaluate how much of it is adequate to the article. Some things like the Backstage I don't think are adequate because they are not part of the Ribbon itself, they would be better placed at Microsoft Office 2010. Diego (talk) 13:31, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok, but as I mentioned before, the "Backstage" is a part of the MS Ribbon's source code given away by Microsoft, and the information I wish to add to the article is dealing with Microsoft's Ribbon UI. I'll also include the shortcuts at the window's title, which isn't really connected to the Ribbon UI itself. Galzigler (talk) 15:46, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Ribbon is not a general computing idea. It's only a user interface element invented by Microsoft. Thus, I feel the current title is not accurate.Jasper Deng (talk) 04:08, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

The disambiguation word in parentheses is to show context, not to imply that it's a general computing concept. The "(computing)" part indicates that this usage of Ribbon is some way used in computers, which it is. It usually doesn't pay off to be too specific as it wouldn't show proper context. If there were some other uses of the word in computing, then it would need a more specific disambiguation. See

WP:PRECISION for the relevant guideline. Diego (talk

) 08:00, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

• • This as well as the suggested prior art, Microsoft did not 'invent' the ribbon UI as such, only modernised a previously created concept. NotinREALITY 22:47, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

This is Microsoft support page so it doesn't belong in Wikipedia. I get it -- Microsoft hosed another product by breaking what worked well. Its unfortunate Microsoft treats customers like street urchins but this doesn't justify using WP to deal with their screw-up. Microsoft has pages for this very purpose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.211.235.199 (talk) 14:48, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

This article seems to be focussed on a recent Office UI. I’m pretty sure

I've found some references with a Google Books search ([2],[3]). I'll look to include them into the article. Diego (talk) 14:58, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

They've been flogging the idea of ribbons since WfW 2 eh? They need to find some new ideas! Chris55 (talk) 17:02, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Icon Technology - TechWriter Pro c1992-2012

Slightly different direction, there's been a RISC-OS based word processor, TechWriter PRO, that's utilised a multi level context sensitive toolbar system since 1992 (Clicking icons on the top level, alters the lower level(s) icons / functionality) e.g http://www.flickr.com/photos/97591625@N00/6186989979/ 83.104.51.74 (talk) 15:21, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Well spotted! (That's my photo.) We need coverage of this in reliable sources - I wonder what it was referred to, if not a "ribbon", maybe simply a toolbar. -- Trevj (talk) 05:38, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Wow! Good catch. I can't believe how I missed that for half a year; but then I follow this article mainly through diffs in the watchlist, and I didn't see that one.

Maybe we should ask for semi-protection; although vandalism is not too high, there aren't many watchers either, and this topic has received much hate and strong opinions. Diego (talk) 15:17, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

...that at least one third party company (see http://www.ubit.ch/software/ubitmenu-languages/) has an add-on which allows users to place a single tab in the ribbon which replicates the original menu system? I'd suggest that if there's a market for that, there have to be some seriously discontented ribbon users. 5.35.166.250 (talk) 11:11, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

That's interesting, but we need a

reliable source that describe those extensions to include it (something like a newspaper article or op-ed would be enough). Diego (talk

) 11:24, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

NitroPDF is a popular software that uses the ribbon interface. In the section about other softwares that also implement this, I think that Nitro could be added, because only RedOffice is mentioned there right now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.201.121.43 (talk) 01:23, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

That would require a reliable source discussing its use of a ribbon interface; and I can't find any. Diego (talk) 10:29, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi. I am right now thinking why any other app using Ribbon is mentioned at all?

Wikipedia is not a directory

of apps that use Ribbon. Mentioning an app that uses ribbon must have a reason.

For instance, HomeSite is okay, because it has the original art controversy. Microsoft Office is also okay, for its role in the history of ribbon. But otherwise, why are OpenOffice and RedOffice mentioned at all? There are thousands of other open-source or proprietary software that use ribbon and have equal merit (or should I say "equally lack the merit"?) to be included in the article.

Best regards,

Codename Lisa (talk) 14:29, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

We have a reference describing how Microsoft arrived to the term, and it applies to a different concept than the one in the Oxford dictionary - which seems to be about printers. The assertion that the term Ribbon was previously in use referring to rows of icons seems unsupported. Diego (talk) 22:06, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi. I had to read your message a few times before I really understand it but yes, the assertion of "term" seems unsupported although "concept" is not. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 22:35, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi, you looked at the wrong definition in the 1996 fourth edition of the Oxford dictionary of computing- definition (2) is about its use to describe the user interface concept and states "2. In some graphical applications, a horizontal row of control icons that can often be redefined to suit the user's requirements." The term "ribbon" is quite old when applied to user interfaces. 121.45.213.79 (talk) 00:20, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I have updated the lede definition to "In computing, a horizontal row of control icons in a Graphical user interface;[1] often implemented as a set of toolbars placed on tabs in a tab bar." This covers both the generic and historical usage of the term as well as its current branding as tabbed toolbars under Windows, so hopefully is not controversial (note that the use of the term "ribbon" for tabbed toolbars is *not* common on, for example, Unix-based systems). A similar edit I did previously was removed despite it being fully cited. I have given references and supporting evidence to the original generic usage in (i) the Oxford dictionary of Computing; (ii) early 1980s conference proceedings (iii) Microsoft Word manual, and indeed its own menus using "ribbon" in its original broad sense; the references to the specific usage as a tabbed toolbar in this article, by contrast, all cite company-specific marketing material. It is important that wikipedia articles are encyclopedic and give the accepted general definition of terms across academia, industry, and elsewhere, and are not overly distorted by current marketing terms, which will likely change again on the next product release. 121.45.213.79 (talk) 09:11, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

One request - when using offline sources, such as earlier editions of a dictionary, please quote in the reference the exact sentence used as support. Otherwise it's extremely difficult to verify the assertions in the article. Diego (talk) 13:28, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Hey, guys. As I was looking at the edits, I see someone seems to have an urge to mention the so-called "early form" of the definition of ribbon, effectively deviating from

I am not proposing to throw this little adventure of Microsoft in neologism territory out of the window (although it might seem beneficial) but at least, let's stick to

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 10:49, 1 June 2013 (UTC)