Talk:The Holocaust in Poland/Archives/2018/June

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@Volunteer Marek: Re: this change - two problems:

1. The phrase "Jews... received help from the Poles in an organized fashion" suggests Żegotawas some kind of an ethnic Polish initiative, when in fact it was Polish governmental initiative. Jews who received help from Żegota did not receive it from "the Poles", but from their own government.
2. The rest of the paragraph is simply fallacious, and was already removed from this and other articles several times (as above).

François Robere (talk) 18:26, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Uh, look man. You're trying to remove relevant text about the ... Council to Aid Jews, from the article on The Holocaust in Poland. Based on some bullshit excuse you've invented which involves hair splitting between "ethnic Polish initiatives" and "Polish government initiatives", whatever the hey that is suppose to mean. Where are the sources which make this distinction or validate your original research? Oh, that's right, you haven't provided any.

Seriously, removing relevant text about the Council to Aid Jews from the article on The Holocaust in Poland because you decided it's irrelevant, is about as

I didn't remove anything, I rephrased existing material (#1). The rest is as Icewhiz already explained (#2). What's the problem? François Robere (talk) 18:33, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

"I didn't remove anything," <--- why, why, why WHYYYY do you do this??? It is so freakin' easy to check that this assertion of yours is just completely false. Sigh. Why are you blatantly... telling falsehoods like that and how do you expect other editors to take you seriously???

Here:

This was the text you left in: "Many Jews persecuted by the Germans, received help from the Polish Council to Aid Jews (the Żegota), as well as from individual Poles. This help was offered despite the danger faced by anyone helping Jews at the hands of the German forces"

And this was the text before: "Many Jews, persecuted by the Germans, received help from the Poles in an organized fashion (see Żegota) and random aid through varying degrees of individual efforts: help ranging from major acts of heroism, to minor acts of kindness involving hundreds of thousands of helpers acting often anonymously. This rescue effort occurred even though ethnic Poles themselves were subject to execution at the hands of the German police (from October 1941) if found offering any kind of help to a person of Jewish faith or origin."

I've bolded the parts you removed, but I did not include "the rest" that "Icewhiz already explained" (which is another falsehood you're telling - he's addressing something else)

And I still want to see sources which make a distinction between "ethnic Polish initiative" and "Polish governmental initiative" as well as a coherentexplanation of what it has to do with ... anything really.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:49, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

The "major acts of heroism" etc. is just meaningless prose, and unsourced at that. The second part is summarised in "the danger faced by anyone..." (and about that we've got

bad faith

?

Well, Żegota was run by AK, a proxy of the government in London; it was funded by the government in London; and it had JNC and Bund representatives - it's in the article. Ergo, it wasn't an "ethnic" Polish thing but a governmental one. The onus is on you to prove ethnicity was enough of a factor here to qualify it as "Polish" in the ethnic sense, not on me to prove otherwise. François Robere (talk) 19:04, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

The onus isn't on anything. You're making stuff up. And you have no sources. And you wrote several things above which are blatantly false and now, that it's been pointed out, you're attempting to deflect.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:28, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

1. I didn't add any material to the article, so I don't need to bring any new sources.
2. As for sources for this discussion: it's in the article.
3. What do you contend is false or "made up"? Do remember you've made such allegations before, and they never held. François Robere (talk) 20:24, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

So um, apparently, you neither removed nor added anything to the article, yet you're arguing about this, do I have that right? Hell, maybe you didn't make an edit at all!

And if there's sources in the Zegota article that distinguish between "ethnic Polish initiative" and "Polish government initiative" then you should have no problem presenting them here. Quit deflecting. And making stuff up.

Hmm, what is false? Well, I've already pointed it out. You claimed that you didn't remove anything. Quote: "I didn't remove anything". I directly quoted the text you actually removed. You claimed some weird ass distinction between "ethnic Polish initiative" and "Polish government initiative" you invented was supported by sources. You have failed to provide these. You claimed that "rest is as Icewhiz already explained". But Icewhiz was addressing the issue of whether or not Poland was the only country in occupied Europe where the death penalty was applied automatically for helping Jews. Nothing to do with Zegota OR the text you removed. So that's another false assertion. And that's just the most recent.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:32, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

And if there's sources... that distinguish between "ethnic Polish initiative" and "Polish government initiative":

1. Again, the onus is not on me. The sources we have make clear that Żegota was run by AK, a proxy of the government in London; it was funded by the government in London; and it had JNC and Bund representatives - the underlying assumptions here are that a government represents all its people regardless of ethnicity, and that an organization with operatives of more than one group isn't ethnically homogeneous. To characterize such an organization as "ethnic" rather than "governmental", and therefore justify the previous phrasing, you'd have to provide proof, not me. Specifically, you'd have to show that the Polish government was synonymous only with the ethnic Poles; or that something in the character of Żegota made it a primarily an ethnic-Polish organization (eg. the way a mission is a Christian organization); or that it wasn't a governmental organization to begin with.
2. That being said, if you believe there is no difference between the two, then you have no reason to object my edit, as from your POV it would simply be a rephrasing that doesn't change the fact.

Do you have any claims with regards to the facts of the argument - that is, the edits themselves? François Robere (talk) 06:37, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek I have documented numerous likewise, baseless and possibly dishonest reverts of François Robere he has made in the past.GizzyCatBella (talk) 21:13, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

@Slatersteven Would you consider this comment on-topic? François Robere (talk) 21:32, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes and no, the comment is about edits to the article and not (for example) attitudes or politics if it. But it is discussing you, and not the subject. But (to a degree) so is your comment.Slatersteven (talk) 07:34, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Me pointing it out, that is? François Robere (talk) 07:40, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

"And that's just the most recent"--> PER Volunteer Marek. My comment refers to that and it is on the topic of this discussion. So quit looking for backers FR, and focus on your ill revert to this article. Thank you.GizzyCatBella (talk) 01:12, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

• Just a quick educational reading -> Władysław Bartoszewski, who served for Żegota measured that at least several hundred thousand Poles engaged in numerous actions in the rescue of Jews across GG. Research hints that a million Poles were committed to giving aid, but some calculations go as high as three million for those who were passively protective.GizzyCatBella (talk) 07:02, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

• You are supposed to comment on content, not users. We all do it, but this is also dragging other users in now.Slatersteven (talk) 07:34, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

• The article, as is, is full of too much puffery for Polish rescue attempts. The mainstream historical view being that there were very few rescuers, many of whom were motivated by greed and not altruism, and that the rescuers themselves were persecutred by the majority of Polish society. While there were more rescuers in Poland - there were also significantly more Jews. Some elements (represented by Ewa Kurek and the like) in modern Polish society have attempted to turn this into an element of the national narrative - but mainstream Holocaust historians mainly disagree with this - and the current article is not NPOV as it represents this narrative and not serious study.Icewhiz (talk) 10:21, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

The mainstream historical view being that there were very few rescuers, many of whom were motivated by greed and not altruism - and the source is?

Izewhiz suggests that outside Poland many people helped Jews motivated by altruism. Let's discuss the case of Denemark, which has a tree in Yad Vashem, Poland doesn't deserve one. But the majority of rescued Jews paid their Danish helpers. Double standards? As far as I know one helper died in Denmark but at least one thousand in Poland.

There is an ocean between lack of altruism and a crime. Generally people aren't altruistic, especially during wars. The majority of Jews in ghettos wasn't altruistic either. Xx236 (talk) 05:58, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I made no comparison to other countries - if you want one - Ukraine and Lithuania were far worse than Poland. The Danish case is special - both in scope of rescue (nearly everyone) - and that this was a Danish quasi-state action (going up to the king). As for some sources - e.g. This “infinitely small minority” of rescuers had to oppose both the Germans and their Polish neighbors, and Poles who helped save the pitifully few who ... Their lifesaving acts appear not to be viewed by their Christian neighbors as righteous but rather as betrayal. Good Neighbors: The Democracy of Everyday Life in America, page 194. Or Grabowski viewing them as a "desperate, hunted, tiny minority",[1][2] and stating - “Polish authorities started to build up, reinforce and expand the myth of righteous Poles who saved the Jews. The goal was, of course it still is, to present these rare and extremely courageous individuals as a wartime norm, as the default position, the default attitude of Poles during the war. This is a historical fallacy,”[3] - a rescue myth others have commented on [4][5]. Seems there are/were plans for a "Polocaust" musuem.[6][7] - we need to be careful to remove such non-scholarly material from this, and other, articles.Icewhiz (talk) 06:17, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

How many Danish people died helping Jews?

Do you know that neutral Sweden was situted close do D.?

Do you know that Danish Jews had to pay for their transport?

Do you know that D. has a special tree in Yad Vashem?

This is historical fallacy.Xx236 (talk) 11:34, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

There is a series of new or reedited pages Wikipedia:Wiki Ed/University of Wisconsin-Madison/HIS 224 - History of the Holocaust (Spring 2018). Xx236 (talk) 09:25, 13 June 2018 (UTC)