Template talk:Cite newsgroup/Archive 1

This is an current talk page
.

To help centralise discussions and keep related topics together, citation-related talk page discussion and archives can be found here

This template was considered for deletion on 2009 May 21. The result of the discussion was "keep".

"id" attribute

I've tried using this template, but when the message ID parameter is used, it shows up inside quotation marks before the title, which doesn't look right. What's going on? -- Antaeus Feldspar 14:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Citation warning incorrect

The warning given in this template about the use of usenet postings is incorrect. The exact text of from

WP:RS

is:

Bulletin boards, wikis and posts to Usenet

Posts to bulletin boards, Usenet, and wikis, or messages left on blogs, should not be used as primary or secondary sources. This is in part because we have no way of knowing who has written or posted them, and in part because there is no editorial oversight or third-party fact-checking. In addition, in the case of wikis, the content of an article could change at any moment. For exceptions, see the section on self-published sources.

Self-published sources

A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites, and books published by vanity presses. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and

blogs

are largely not acceptable as sources.

Exceptions to this may be when a well-known, professional researcher writing within their field of expertise, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material. In some cases, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as their work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications, and they are writing under their own name or known pen-name and not anonymously.

However, editors should exercise caution for two reasons: first, if the information on the professional researcher's blog (or self-published equivalent) is really worth reporting, someone else will have done so; secondly, the information has been self-published, which means it has not been subject to any independent form of fact-checking.

In general it is preferable to wait until other sources have had time to review or comment on self-published sources.

Reports by anonymous individuals, or those without a track record of publication to judge their reliability, do not warrant citation at all, until such time as it is clear that the report has gained cachet, in which case it can be noted as a POV.

Self-published sources in articles about themselves

Material from self-published sources, whether published online or as a book or pamphlet, may be used as sources of information about themselves in articles about themselves, so long as there is no reasonable doubt about who wrote it, and where the material is one of the following:

relevant to the person's notability, or, if the material is self-published by a group or organisation, relevant to the notability of that group or organisation or
not contentious, such as basic biographical information. All information of a self-published nature should be looked at with a critical eye.

it should also be:

not unduly self-serving or self-aggrandizing;
about the subject only, and does not involve claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject;
subject to verification by other sources.

Self-published material should always be reported as the POV of the publisher, and not as general fact, until such time as there is independent corroboration of that material. The reputation of the self-publisher is a guide to whether the material rises to the level of notability at all.

In general, if a self-published source is reliable, then other reliable sources will cite it, until then, it should be avoided.

One of the problems with such a simplistic re-statement of this rule in this template is that it eliminates Usenet as a source of signficant cultural and historical milestones. One primary example of this is Rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated and other Babylon 5 related articles. Straczynski (the creator and executive producer of the show) used Usenet as a self-published forum in which to detail many aspects of the show's creation and day-to-day operations which are not collected anywhere else. This is a 12-year-span (so far) of postings from the creator of the franchise, detailing everything from set design to the mechanics of finding and hiring actors. This is a primary source, and it is also a self-published source. It fits well into the guidelines for "Self-published sources in articles about themselves", and I don't think that this template should seek to re-write that policy in a vacuum.

All that said, I haven't gotten around to re-writing the article that I linked to, above, using the new ref-style citations anyway, so it's a moot point there. Still, Usenet is a cultural resource, which should not be ignored in terms of citations, though obviously it is a source which must be more carefully scrutinized than some. -Harmil 16:12, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you can invoke

WP:IGNORE on this one. :) -- intgr

10:08, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Remove the template from this template. There is no consensus for lots of things on

WP:RS. — Omegatron

17:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The template has been removed. grendel|khan 04:39, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

auto url

I have added a feature to have it automatically link to dejagoogle using the 'selm' feature if the id is given and the url is not. Should the "(Google Groups)" text be made less obtrusive now that it's going to go in whether the gg url is given or not? —

Random8322007-01-26 19:59 UT C

(01/26 14:59 EST)

Non-standard news: URI?

Is there an RFC that describes the use of USENET URIs with the four slash format news:////<message id>? According to RFC 1738, the two forms are:

news:<newsgroup-name>
news:<message-id>

I've also checked the later RFCs, but didn't see any changes to that. Failing a reference to a standard, is there a browser/newsreader combination that this actually works with? AndroidCat 05:18, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I notice that the template has been changed to news:// (from ////), however this still doesn't conform to RFC 1738. Samples of valid news URLs:

news:alt.scooter
news:[email protected]

It's possible that some software bends the standard and wants the protocol:// format but I haven't tested for that. AndroidCat 06:51, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

You are right about syntax, but it is better to read draft-ellermann-news-nntp-uri-10.txt instead of old RFC 1738. According to the URI syntax double slash is a part of server name, so it is needless here. (Hmm, forgot, to sign...) --Andrzej P. Wozniak (talk) 15:15, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Hide the access date

We have a consensus that access dates for online copies of offline sources, while helpful as a comment in the source, should be hidden from the reader. While newsgroups are online sources posts have an "official" post date after which they typically don't change. Therefore, I believe the updated policy applies here as well. Could somebody who is competent to adapt the citation templates please do so? The idea is to keep the access date as a template parameter but remove the code that displays it. Thanks, --EnOreg (talk) 09:34, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Object. In that conversation, there was mention of the value of the date for when the content may change. There was also mention of content that was likely to become unavailable. I think mailing list content is more likely to be ephemeral than physical content, so do not see any consensus to remove the parameter from this template at this time. --Karnesky (talk) 13:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, let's have this discussion for newsgroups and mailing lists

here. --EnOreg (talk

) 13:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Standardisation across cite templates

Cite web option for editor-set date styles

See

Template talk:Cite web#Working version and final discussion re proposed new parameter of datestyle. As a default it leaves date/accessdate/archive date as wikified dates as is the current case. However if specified it would show unlinked but formated dates as "=dmy" 23 October 2007 as "=mdy" October 23, 2007 or as "=ymd" 2007 October 23. Given ideally cite template should be consistant, should such a proposal be implemented here too ? Please discuss at the above link. David Ruben ^Talk

19:43, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Question

Why do we even have this template? I can't find a logical reason why we would ever need to cite a newsgroup. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Many otters • One hammer • HELP)} 11:38, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

What kind of a silly question is that? Obviously the template was created because there was a need. Try Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Cite newsgroup. Also, please use meaningful section titles in your talk page posts. -- intgr [talk] 14:39, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Documentation

{{

Editprotected

}} Please change:

<noinclude>{{pp-template|small=yes}}

----

Parameters are taken mostly from the message header fields (see RFC 2822, RFC 1036) as follows:

*'''title''', from ''Subject'' header field  (required)
*'''author''', from ''From'' header field  (or from ''[[signature block]]'')
*'''date''', from ''Date'' header field (or from ''NNTP-Posting-Date'' field)
*'''newsgroup''', from ''[[Newsgroup]]s'' header field 
* '''id''', from ''[[Message-ID]]'' header field 
*'''url''' (on [[Google Groups]] or other newsgroup archive, if possible)
**'''accessdate''' for the above URL


=== Usage summary ===

;Horizontal format
<tt>{{cite newsgroup |title= |author= |date= |newsgroup= |id= |url= |accessdate= {{CURRENTYEAR}}-{{CURRENTMONTH}}-{{CURRENTDAY2}} }}</tt>

;Vertical format
 {{cite newsgroup 
  | title = 
  | author = 
  | date = 
  | newsgroup = 
  | id = 
  | url = 
  | accessdate = {{CURRENTYEAR}}-{{CURRENTMONTH}}-{{CURRENTDAY2}}
 }}

===Examples===
{{Expand|date=September 2007}}
===Note===
{{Intricate template}}
[[Category:Citation templates|{{PAGENAME}}]]

[[ja:Template:Cite newsgroup]]
[[ru:Шаблон:Cite newsgroup]]
[[vi:Tiêu bản:Chú thích nhóm tin]]
</noinclude>

to:

<noinclude>{{pp-template|small=yes}} {{documentation}}</noinclude>

Since i have moved the documentation to the subpage. Thankyou,

Talk Page · Contribs

) 03:48, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Done. I had to move the documentation page though since you placed it at {{Cite usenet/doc}}, and had to fix the interwiki links that your editor apparently broke. Amalthea 09:04, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

More like citation/core; include quote, Sep and PS

{{

editprotected

}}

Please replace with the current sandbox, excluding the top noinclude sandbox template.

This is probably an interim version to basing it on {{citation/core}}, but adds the quote=, Sep= and PS= parameters.

Mark Hurd (talk) 11:15, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Do you like the minor changes I have made? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:52, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, use this version. Mark Hurd (talk) 23:56, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Done. Please update the documentation if necessary. Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 02:35, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

purlnet:msgid/

Should we use

purlnet:msgid/

?

I.e. [[purlnet:msgid/{{{id}}}|(Google Groups)]]

instead of [http://groups.google.com/groups?selm={{{id}}} (Google Groups)]

e.g. purlnet:msgid/[email protected]

Mark Hurd (talk) 06:35, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Cite element

{{

editprotected

}} Please sync with the sandbox, to use a span instead of a cite element. (See Template talk:Citation/core for more information.) —Ms2ger (talk) 13:15, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Template:Citation error uses span instead of strong for the error message. Should this be the same? — RockMFR 15:41, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, why isn't it using citation error ? —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:18, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Makes sense, it uses {{citation error}} now. —Ms2ger (talk) 17:56, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Done —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 02:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Differences

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I see two differences between this template and the majority of the other cite templates:

The title is quoted and italicized; {{cite web}} formats the title in quotes only
This template uses "Retrieved on", where all the other use "Retrieved"

---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 20:22, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I too noticed these inconsistencies at the

Mrwojo (talk

) 02:54, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Done, Woody (talk) 21:57, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Nnemo, 26 June 2011 — Google Groups

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Hello,

Currently we read : "Bla. Bli. (Google Groups). Blu."

This is incorrect. The period after "(Google Groups)" ends no sentence.

Please correct this by replacing "(Google Groups)" with "Google Groups".

Thanks,

--Nnemo (talk) 01:37, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

You may be right, but could you discuss this and get an agreement before I change it? It's been this way for a long time without complaints. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:26, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

OK. Let's discuss.

As for me, I agree with the requested change.

--Nnemo (talk) 18:33, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Update to citation/core

Sandbox version updated to use :

{{cite newsgroup}}

{{cite newsgroup |author=Tanenbaum, A. S. |title=LINUX is obsolete |date=January 29, 1992 |newsgroup=comp.os.minix |[email protected] |quote=I am not unhappy with LINUX |PS=Single post.}}

Tanenbaum, A. S. (January 29, 1992). "LINUX is obsolete". Newsgroup: comp.os.minix. [email protected]. I am not unhappy with LINUX {{cite newsgroup}}: Unknown parameter |PS= ignored (|postscript= suggested) (help)

{{cite newsgroup/sandbox}}

{{cite newsgroup/sandbox |author=Tanenbaum, A. S. |title=LINUX is obsolete |date=January 29, 1992 |newsgroup=comp.os.minix |[email protected] |quote=I am not unhappy with LINUX |PS=Single post.}}

Tanenbaum, A. S. (January 29, 1992). "LINUX is obsolete". Newsgroup: comp.os.minix. [email protected]. I am not unhappy with LINUX {{cite newsgroup}}: Unknown parameter |PS= ignored (|postscript= suggested) (help)

This makes this template compatible with

Citation Style 1

:

Adds full date parameters including |month= and |year=
Adds anchor using |ref=
Adds more standard author parameters |last= and |first=
Adds |trans_title= for non-English titles
Adds IDs such as JSTOR, bibcode, DOI and more

---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 16:38, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

If there are no comments, I will update this within the week. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 14:01, 12 October 2011 (UTC)