User:FayssalF/JK
This page is meant to be a central place for all volunteer uninvolved editors and admins seeking a resolution to this dispute. It will also serve to organize all work dedicated to reach a compromise. It has been made clear that both users would not reach a compromise if left alone. It is time now to listen for the last time to these users' concerns and deal with them according to Wikipedia policies and guidelines.
user:Opiumjones 23's concerns
Left comment on AN [1]
user:BKLisenbee's concerns
It would hard for me (or anyone else, for that matter) to have any kind of civil discourse with a user (opiumjones_23) now (Catalpa), who sent me yet another e-mail rant, addressing me this way: "hey shithead". That mail and other similar threatening or disrespectful e-mails were sent immediately to Wikipedia administrator/mediator/Fayssal. I have also been unambiguously threatened with legal action, and opiumjones_23 was clearly warned. This is the kind of nonsense I have had to deal with for several years, unfortunately, thanks to this Wikipedia mess. I do hope, however, some resolution can be found. Although I am the main focus of this current matter, please be fully aware that there are others who are very concerned that some resulution be accomplished. Several other editors have taken time to conscientiously research the Jajouka and Joujouka situation, mainly to avoid confusion which having two separate entries for the Master Musicians has caused over the years.
I sincerely hope that anyone willing to help will be fully aware of what has been going on, and be meticulous in research and edits, and be aware that I am not the only concerned person in this dispute. Unfortunately, the Master Musicians of Jajouka, has been the victim of a long-standing smear campaign by this user (opiumjones_23), ever since he began to use Hamri as his excuse/rationale. If the painter Hamri were a musician with any legitimate status as a musician, perhaps it would be easier to decide this case. Hamri's claim to fame was that he was a close friend of painter Brion Gysin for years (though he was left nothing in Gysin's will), and Gysin with Hamri brought Brian Jones to the village for a single recording, of which Hamri did the original artwork. That's it. So later the LP was released, and the artwork was changed. Is that really so "controversial" as opiumjones_23 has said all along. And who, precisely, are the original musicians? Is it a group that opiumjones_23 has produced a mere 3 CDs on the Sub Rosa label? Who, precisely, is this Ahmed El Attar, who opiumjones_23 claims is the leader of his "original group"? And perhaps more important, who made him the leader of a "Joujouka" faction/band, that opiumjones_23 claims is the "original" group? Where does Bachir Attar's father Hadj Abdesalam Attar fit in? He was the undisputed leader of the "original" group also, when Brian Jones made his one 1968 recording of "Pipes of Pan". But is it only because of the Brian Jones / Brion Gysin and Hamri connection that these musicians and their music are significant? There is nothing in print about Ahmed Attar, anywhere, with the exception of opiumjones_23's productions, his band's MySpace page, and his own website [2]. These and numerous other issues remain to be solved, hopefully, so that Wikipedia will not be used to attack and smear others, even noninvolved parties.
ABUSE OF WIKIPEDIA'S MISINFORMATION and LINKS PUT ON OTHER SITES AND BLOGS SUPPORTING LIBEL:
See this link: [3]
where a Frankrigger comments with links to Wikipedia's entries, claiming that I am guilty of harrassment via e-mails. This is patently untrue, and all e-mails received from opiumjones_23's e-mail have been forwarded to administrator/mediator Fayssal. Gyrofrog, please take note, and also see that opiumjones_23 friend Paul H. has been commenting here and elsewhere, smearing my name, claiming that I am guilty. As the Chelsea Hotel blog where this was originally done accuses me of being the subject of an Australian police investigation for Internet harrassment, which is an outright lie.
There has been continuing misinformation and disinformation on Wikipedia regarding confusion over who hereditary leader of The Master Musicians of Jajouka, Bachir Attar, whose father Hadj Abdesalam Attar, who was the undisputed leader of The Master Musicians of Jajouka when Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones once recorded in the village. The music existed long before either Brion Gysin, Hamri, William Burroughs and Brian Jones and opiumjones_23 ever set foot in the tiny Moroccan village. Unfortunately, the confusion and "controversy" is on Wikipedia's associated pages:
(article) Master Musicians of Jajouka Featuring Bachir Attar. NO redirection from Master Musicians of Jajouka, as the Wikipedia article had originally. It is the height of presumption and misguided arrogance for an opponent of Bachir Attar and the Master Musicians of Jajouka to determine on Wikipedia what name the group is know by. The group's name is: The Master Musicians of Jajouka, and the leader is Bachir Attar, just as his father before him was the leader.
(article) Master Musicians of Joujouka (I and other concerned people strongly believe there needs to be only one article on Wikipedia entitled Master Musicians of Jajouka, with some information about the confusion with opiumjones_23's "Joujouka" in a new section). One reason is that opiumjones_23 begins this way: "These original musicians hail from the village of Joujouka, Jajouka or Zahjouka (spelled جوجوكة or جهجوكة in Arabic)" There is no proof that his band are the "original" musicians. This confusion is a blatant and outrageous claim that is totally unsubstianted and largely perpetrated on Wikipedia and on the user's own MySpace Joujouka site and joujouka.net. It is patently untrue. Please remove "original musicians". The spelling of the village as Joujouka only perepetrates the confusion. It is commonly known as Jajouka, as the Google Books and other references below will demonstrate.
(article) Jajouka (this page is supposed to focus/concentrate on the village in Morocco) As it currently stands, there is a misstatement that the village "hosted a Brian Jones 40th Anniversary" celebration, which was (organized not by the villagers but by opiumjones_23. This self-promotion needs to be removed, as it was opiumjones_23 who organized this event, and the links to his radio talk have mainly to do with his event) I had initially put a link to a MSN Encarta map which showed the spelling of the village as Jajouka (not "Joujouka", which was predominantly the way the illiterate painter and a friend of Brion Gysin pronounced the village where his mother was from. This article is about the village, and history, not an announcement page for an opiumjones_23-sponsored festival. The link to the radio interview by him should be removed as well as the announcement of his festival, which was actually the 39th anniversary anyway, not the 40th. Another point on [article] Tangier is that under references and notes, #2, joujouka.net should be removed especially since there is no reference or note to jajouka.com, a far more popular group that has in the past, and still tours throughout North America, Europe, Scandinavia, Europe, Japan and Hong Kong. Note also that opiumjones_23's Irish friend has an article on his site, about Hamri, the Painter of Morocco, part one here: [4] that begins, "Silent midnight in Joujouka, 1997..." However he and opiumjones_23 spell the name of the village, the common spelling for the village and group is JAJOUKA. See also this map link also, where it spells the village name as Jajouka, and shows the location on Google Maps: [5]. The MSN ENCARTA MAPS location link, I had put this on Wikipedia several years ago when I first noticed the misspelling of the village and Master Musicians of Jajouka on Wikipedia, is this: [6] This MSN link needs to be re-added to Wikipedia (why was it ever removed??) to show the spelling as is commonly used today, Jajouka, or Jahjouka (but not "Joujouka" as well as the exact location in Morocco. They are two different places, apparently nearby, but the spelling in no place on the MSN Encarta map is "Joujouka". Although the user in question says the "official" Moroccan spelling of the village is Zahjouka."
(article) Mohamed Hamri (no reputable source other than an art-pamphlet shows that Hamri was born in "Joujouka" or Jajouka, and see below that various books have him as born in Ksar-el-Kebir, as well as opiumjones_23's own obituary published in England in the Independent newspaper. It is on his joujouka.net site here, along with a PDF file of the original announcement: [7]The place of birth in Morocco of the painter Mohamed Hamri is incorrect on Wikipedia as it currently stands (though let it be known that it had been correct initially, until opiumjones_23 changed it. opiumjones_23 wrote an obituary saying he was born in Ksar-el-Kebir, Morocco (still a "reputable" source on Wikipedia), and Wikipedia says Hamri was born in Joujouka. The same obituary says that Hamri was immortalized by Paul Bowles in a book, and it turns out that it was Brion Gysin's book The Process where Hamri was "immortalized" as a character. Read this book written by Brion Gysin himself: [8] This same obituary calls a totally illiterate an "intellectual". Now opiumjones_23 has changed his tune to say that a very limited-edition 56-page art book mainly with photographs of Hamri's painting, with a very short "biography" entitled "Hamri, the Painter of Morocco", written by two Irishmen who deceived /conned/fooled many people over years, [2 real names removed by FayssalF] (according to a Wikipedia entry: "...claim ... was based on fabricated documentation, and rather than being aristocrats of Munster origin, his ancestors were ordinary Belfast working people.(they wrote the art pamplet for The Lawrence Arnot Art Gallery in Tangier, "Hamri the painter of Morocco", (Tangier,2004), taking their "royal" lineage very seriously, when in reality they were proven impostors, with no royal lineage at all. This author who co-wrote the art pamplet on Mohamed Hamri, MacCarthy said he would be the next king of Ireland, if a monarchy ever were established there. (See for reference: [9] They said in their art gallery book that Hamri was born in Joujouka (sic). The two confurred "titles" on individuals for a fee of money. They illicitly gained a million dollars/euros/pounds from others and when found out, they were disgraced in Ireland as well as in Tangier. Yet we are supposed to take this little pamplet's information they put in that Hamri was born in Joujouka when other far better researched books say Hamri was born in Ksar-el-Kebir, which, mind you, even opiumjones_23 had in his Independent newspaper obituary of Hamri in 2000. The exposed former Irish royal "Prince" or "Mor" was not royalty at all; he was a total fake, and proven to be so, yet this man's pamphlet is being used as the sole justification for a Wikipedia footnote/reference to claim that Hamri was born in the village ("Joujouka" sic), where his mother was from. On the other hand, several notable books, have references to Hamri as being born in Ksar-el-Kebir, Morocco, never saying he was born in Jajouka. Thus I think this definitely needs to be corrected to Ksar-el-Kebir, Morocco. It should also be noted that Mohamed Hamri was never a musician, but he certainly used them, to the point of stealing money due to them. Since the "obituary" by opiumjones_23 also says Hamri was an "intellectual". It would take a big imagination and stretch of the imagination to ever consider him an intellectual. The fact that this was put in Hamri's Independent newspaper obituary by opiumjones_23, who wrote the article, does not make Hamri an intellectual. I would like it noted on wikipedia that he was illiterate, and footnotes and references can also state facts that in his early life he was well-known in Tangier as a petty thief and smuggler. If one has had a notable past, even criminal, then I see no reason why it cannot be put on Wikipedia, if there are sources to back this up. Everyone wants facts, right? These are known facts about Hamri.
(article) Tangier (under people who lived in Tangier, Hamri is described as "the Picasso of Morocco"; only one newspaper article has this, but it seems to be conjecture and wishful thinking. Books have described him as he proclaimed himself on his personal calling/business card which I still have: "Hamri, the Painter of Morocco" The article is one of perhaps hundreds written over the years in newspapers on Tangier, mainly a travel piece, with a bit about Hamri's wife Blanca. She is a long-time resident of the city, but she is not one of the most important or socially prominent people in the city, having been a secretary for the former headmaster of the American School of Tangier who died two years ago. Since as I pointed out, there are many travel articles written on Tangier, I suggest that the one from the Independent be changed to this one dated December 21, 2008, from the New York Times: [10]. It is more current and less contentious.
(article) William S. Burroughs; Burroughs recognized and supported Bachir Attar as hereditary leader of the Master Musicians of Jajouka (he did not say Master Musicians of "Joujouka", in a signed letter to Cherie Nutting dated November 30, 1994, describing Bachir Attar as: "the sole rightful inheritor of the mantle of Leader of the Master Musicians of Jajouka, and his band of musicians, who are the only rightful 'Master Musicians'". Regardless of any other letter to the contrary, this seems to have been Burroughs' final say on the matter. (See a copy of the original signed letter on the jajouka.com site under documents). For the signed letter by William Burroughs, see this page: http://www.jajouka.com/documents.html Jajouka manager Cherie Nutting has the original letter and she can be contacted via the jajouka.com site. On this letter http://www.jajouka.com/jajoukaletter2.html on page three, Burroughs assistant describes Hamri as "a complete impostor" and William Burroughs says that Mohammed Hamri in opiumjones_23's film Destroy All Rational Thought reveals himself to be a "con man". Burroughs wrote this.
Of significant and informed interest is the 8-page letter written by Jajouka producer Joel Rubiner dated March 11, 1996 and sent to both opiumjones_23 and his friend, who organized a protest in Dublin, Ireland expressing his outrage that they used without permission a copyrighted photograph taken by him and which he stated he still has the negative for, and which opiumjones_23 still uses on his joujouka.net site and also where his friend has on his Outsideleft.com site here: [11]. The photograph by Joel Rubiner is of Brion Gysin, Hamri and William S. Burroughs. Rubiner expresses his concern that his picture was being used on a protest-flyer against Bachir Attar and the Jajouka musicians. The producer who wrote the letter to opiumjones_23, had personal dealings with Hamri and explained what actually occurred over the years, including theft of money and bullying tactics by Hamri, and meeting his wife in Tangier. See please scroll through and read this letter carefully, as it is self-explanatory: [12]
(article) Bachir Attar As it currently reads, after much edit-warring, including with other users such Abelekrim, Bachir Attar leads the Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar. The name of the group he leads must be corrected throughout Wikipedia as he is the the one and only hereditary leader of The Master Musicians of Jajouka, and his father Hadj Abdesalam Attar was the undisputed leader at the time of the Jones recording. There are many book references to this. Bachir lives in the village and many of the musicians still live there, but some live in nearby Ksar-el-Kebir and elsewhere, to earn income since there is no real commercial enterprises in the village other than some farming. Bachir never claimed to lead a "Joujouka" group, and the spelling is a moot point here. He is merely the acknowledged leader of the Master Musicians of Jajouka, and they have toured throughtout the world on many occasions, including 2008 in Canada, and confirmed tours and performances are in the works for 2009. I do not think that any blogs should be used as sources, and I believe this is the position that Wikipedia has taken regarding this issue, and others. Thus, the Walrus Blog interview may not be used. Further, it slants the position of Bachir by making opinions appears as facts when it says uses two links to opiumjones_23's Joujouka MySpace site, as well as to the user's own Joujouka.net. This seems to the typical modus operandi of opiumjones_23. No blogs should be used as links, and Wikipedia should not be filled with self-promotional links to Brian Jones Festivals, Hestercock, the Brink, etc., for these have been the source of bias and misinformation and at times slander, as in the case of Paul Bowles, filled with opinions, not facts, and smearing and damaging people's good reputations.
(article) Cherie Nutting (comments to be added)
(article) Brion Gysin. See this Google books page, where Brion Gysin himself writes about both Hamri and the Master Musicians of Jajouka, and please note that Gysin himself uses the spelling as Jajouka and not "Joujouka". [13] In the summer of 1950, Gysin went to a religious festival or moussem, at Sidi Kacem, held on or near the beach outside of Tangier. It was here that he first became fascinated with the music he later found to be the Master Musicians of Jajouka. It should be noted in any article or on Gysin's article that his close friend and protege Mohamed Hamri was illiterate and pronounced the name as "Jou-Jou-Ka", so perhaps that is why Gysin at first, and later Brian Jones, adoped that spelling. However, it must also be noted that the spelling used by Gysin in much of his later writings all documented, is Jajouka for the village and Master Musicians of Jajouka.
(article) The Rolling Stones; The Rolling Stones group recorded and collaborated with the Master Musicians of Jajouka (not Joujouka).
(article) Steel Wheels (album) There is no doubt that The Rolling Stones worked with and recorded with Bachir Attar and the Master Musicians of Jajouka, recording in the summer 1989 for three days tracks in the kasbah in Tangier, Morocco, with him and the Master Musicians for the song "Continental Drift" in the Stones Steel Wheels album. Mick Jagger also visited Jajouka with Bachir, and this event was fully documented in the film by BBC Television for "The Rolling Stones in Morocco" and shown on British television in 1989.
(article) Bill Laswell (here it says under the Greenwood, etc. section, that he worked with the Master Musicians of Jajouka. Perhaps for clarification of this and other statements regarding the MM of Jajouka, the name Bachir Attar could also be added, so there is no mistake which musicians are being referred to. However, as I have said, there should NOT be any redirection to Master Musicians of Jajouka Featuring Bachir Attar, which is what opiumjones_23 wants.
(article) Berber music The only link here is to opiumjones_23's Joujouka. This is a prime example of the bias of this user and and sloppyness of Wikipedia, as it currently stands regarding Jajouka's music.
(article)
(article) Steel Wheels [14] Somewhere it should be pointed out that the Rolling Stones both collaborated and recorded with Bachir Attar, leader of the Master Musicians of Jajouka in the summer of 1989 in Tangier on the Stone's song "Continental Drift" on the Steel Wheels album .
(article) Brian Jones The links on the Brian Jones page seem to be a substantially a promotion campaign for the user's Irish radio interview and the user's Brian Jones Festival in 2008. As it currently reads: "Jagger and Richards visited Jajouka in 1989 after recording "Continental Drift" for the Rolling Stones album Steel Wheels with the Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar in Tangier. An homage to Jones entitled "Brian Jones Joujouka very Stoned", painted by Mohamed Hamri, who had brought Jones to Jajouka in 1967, appeared on the cover of Joujouka Black Eyes by the Master Musicians of Joujouka in 1995." Actually, it was only Mick Jagger who visited the village of Jajouka in 1989 (he and the other Rolling Stones did, in fact, record with Bachir Attar and the Master Musicians of Jajouka. Keith Richards did not visit the village of Jajouka at in 1989.
(article) Brian Jones Presents the Pipes of Pan at Jajouka should not be redirected to Joujouka. As this entry currently stands,
(article) Tales of Joujouka (created by opiumjones_23) (comments to be added) This book was a collaboration between Hamri and his wife Blanca Nyland Hamri, since Hamri could not write.
(article) Boujeloud (album) (created by opiumjones_23, redirected from Boujeloud, so I wonder what happened to the article on Boujeloud, and why it was redirected, and who did this?)
(article) Ornette Coleman The official Ornette Coleman website mentions only recording the Master Musicians of Jajouka (not a "Joujouka" group). See: [15]
(article) Paul Bowles. The famous expatriate writer and composer Bowles was dragged into this after his death on the pages of Wikipedia, and he is still being slandered by opiumjones23 on his own site for his band Joujouka (see joujouka.net and by people he knows on various blogs (Irish writer Paul Hawkins), and Joe Ambrose (Irish friend of opiumjones_23) who describes himself an "art-terrorist", and who has stated that he does not believe in the laws of libel); it is disgraceful and unethical. Bowles was accused of all kinds of misdeads, and in the past he was characterized as a serial-sexual predator, and this information remains "interviews" by opiumjones_23 and his friends who do his bidding on the Web, blogs, blog comments, etc. Unverified "facts" have been repeated so often that people are now beginning to believe them, and Wikipedia's Jajouka / Joujouka / Hamri / Brion Gysin/ Pipes of Pan have a major role in perpetrating confusion, misinformation, disinformation, and even slander and libel on occasion, via links on its pages, so I hope there can be a resolution. Bowles friends have had the location of their Tangier residence inserted, with insinuations about criminal sexual exploitation of children and sexuality. Fayssal is fully aware of this. Opiumjones_23 claimed that he "knew" Bowles, when in reality he and his Irish friend were persona non grata, that is, not welcome, in Bowles apartment and they were asked to leave by the maid and chauffeur. Also, let it be known that they slander Bowles in various of their rants. Were he now alive, he could sue for libelous accusations and untruths. Opiumjones_23 also directly threatened to sue me on the pages of Wikipedia and he was warned about putting such threats on Wikipedia. The Wikipedia article on Bowles now seems to be OK, however I would like to draw attention to the link to the official site, which should be corrected to: The Authorized Paul Bowles Web Site, the official site for the Estate of Paul Bowles, http://www.paulbowles.org That is the name of the site. Also, the note link 30 referencing the the official Paul Bowles site should be changed to this page: http://www.paulbowles.org/terms.html and the text changed to remove reference to webmaster. In other words, please remove the footnote link to http://www.ralphmag.org/DT/letters1.html since the letter no longer is on the web. The page on the official site is self-explanatory. Thank you.
Regarding trivia, babel and totally unrelated information and personal names and links to outside sites are still on User opiumjones_23 and User Talk Discussion pages, especially the unsigned comments by user Abelekrim on Opiumjones_23's user talk discussion page, indexed in Google and other search engines, so that speculation and dragging in completely noninvolved parties names are turning up the Wikipedia user page when searches are being done on their names. This is the kind of thing that makes Wikipedia look bad. Yes, there are problems with Wikipedia indexing discussion talk pages and I hope this can be addressed by administration. It is time that higher ups in Administration finally take notice to this problem and do something about it.
It is also a fact that most professors at universities and colleges now give automatic failing grades in courses to their students who use Wikipedia as references in their papers. I can understand why, based on this "controversy" largely stirred up by Hamri, opiumjones_23 and his Irish "art-terrorist" friend who want only their controvery on the Internet. Though the latter is not editing on Wikipedia, that I know of, I have noted that on sites are being used as links/references also in Wikipedia, and he states that he does not believe in the laws of libel. Fortunately, Wikipedia believes that libelous statements and unproven allegations must be avoided at all cost.
Numerous discussion/edits by opiumjones23 have been contentious, and long disrupted the lives of innocent people, causing nightmares, and I was once threatened with legal action. Many times in the past few years my edits were reverted by him and others. I began editing on the Jajouka and Master Musicians of Jajouka pages because I saw the group spelled as Joujouka, when I was familiar with the current leader, Bachir Attar, who lives in the village. opiumjones23 has repeatedly tried to say that his musicians represent the "original" group, but he has gone well beyond this to repeatedly discredit Attar, whose father was the hereditary leader of the group. Thus, as I see it, much of this has spread to blogs and only today I found a blog which seems to perpetrate this notion. It could be as a result of Wikipedia's having two separate pages, one for Master Musicians of Jajouka (which opiumjones23 felt should be redirected to Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar). This redirection should be eliminated. The other band of musicians, is what opiumjones23 calls the Master Musicians of Joujouka.
Jajouka is the spelling for the village which is most commonly used in the West and in most publications by far, and reputable sources and references. Many books have used the spelling of Jajouka and the name of the group is almost always spelled Jajouka. Invariably, these published books have used knowledgeable sources and interviews, including Brian Gysin, to accurately I feel spell the name of both the far more popular group as Jajouka, and it is led by Bachir Attar. William Burroughs said that there was no dispute that Bachir Attar was the only rightful inheritor of the mantle of Leader of the Master Musicians of Jajouka, and you can read that on the official Jajouka.com site under documents.
I will also say that this Master Musicians of Jajouka/Joujouka dispute seems to have come about beginning in the 1990s when Mohamed Hamri, a Moroccan painter, who was illiterate and a close friend of Brion Gyin who once lived in Tangier. There is confusion as to the commonly accepted spelling of the village as Jajouka caused by consistent references to a Master Musicians of Joujouka on Wikipedia. I had long ago put on a simple MSN Encarta link showing the spelling and precise location of the village on the Jajouka page (for the village). Someone removed this, and for clarity's sake, it really should be there, along with other map references to the village, which I have visited only once. A pronounciation of the village by Mohamed Hamri, who was illiterate, has been used as Joujouka. But it is a pronounciation, not turned into a spelling by opiumjones_23, who knew Hamri well, and his wife, and who has put out a mere 3 CDs using Joujouka as a spelling for his band. But the origin of the spelling may have come from Hamri, and from that point in the early 1950s Brion Gysin first spelled the name of the village and the musicians, "Joujouka". More important, however, is the fact that both Brion Gysin and William S. Burroughs, who learned of this music through his close friend Gysin, in their quoted writings and reliable references in books later spelled the village name and the music group as Jajouka, or Master Musicians of Jajouka.
The following are some of the references to the preeminent and commonly used spelling in published books (not a very short bio, as in the case of the Hamri reference mentioned above, which as I have said, was written by a deceitful individual who claimed he could be a future king of Ireland, and who much has been written about exposing this fact in newspapers and now a book. In view of the fact that the author has a long history of deceitful activities, and theft of monies were involved, and the revelation that he was a complete fraud, as his father was a working class citizen in Ireland and not Irish "royalty", I would not put too much faith in his pompous writings.
Let's get to the commonly accepted spelling of the Master Musicians from the village. Please look at Google Books, which has indexed relevant books for reading, a very useful feature. You can start by going to Google Books, then search on Master Musicians of Jajouka, and you will find many sources, and can read much of the contents online. I did this yesterday and forwarded it to the administrator Fayssal, who is trying to help settle this matter to the satisfaction of all parties concerned, not just me and opiumjones_23. While I can understand that he, as producer of only 3 CDs of his largely unknown band of "Joujouka" musicians wants to be acknowledged, the fact of the matter is that he has gone out of his way to discredit the hereditary leader of the very group whose music has been around for over 1,000 years, widely credited as being the first "World Music" group. But his use of Brian Jones and Brion Gysin, and Hamri and William Burroughs, as well as his extra-Wikipedia use of the Internet, blogs, and interviews, all with him, give only a one-sided and distorted picture of the history of the music and the group. There is one group, and one leader, and it is the Master Musicians of Jajouka led by Bachir Attar. That is what most reputable sources say. I and user Emerman, who I have been accused of being, who I am not, have never seen in print any documentation showing that his Joujouka is the "original" group. Beat Generation figures are used to attempt to justify his position, but the books and references I have read point to The Master Musicians of Jajouka, and the village is spelled almost consistently, with one or two scholarly exceptions, as Jajouka. The Master Musicians of Jajouka group whose father was the undisputed leader at the time of the Brian Jones recording in 1969 was Bachir's father, not the Ahmed El Attar that opiumjones_23 claims. Where is his documentation for this in some reputable source? One group, one music, one page on Wikipedia for this group seems to be the correct way to proceed. It is clearly the Master Musicians of Jajouka.
NOTES FOR FAYSSAL OF WIKIPEDIA FROM USER: BKLISENBEE
Google Books provides a wealth of information about the Master Musicians of Jajouka and Bachir Attar, as well as Brion Gysin and Jajouka, William Burroughs and Jajouka, etc. Please look at these books in Google Books; there are many other references to Jajouka in Google Books, too numerous and time-consuming for me to view all today..
Back in No Time By Brion Gysin, Jason Weiss Published by Wesleyan University Press, 2002
Written in 1981 by Brion Gysin, please note the article by Gysin on page 279, “Hamri’s Hands”, where is described as a cook, as well as a painter, and also note Gysin’s use of the spelling for the group as Master Musicians of Jajouka.
NOTE: There are many instances throughout this book where Brion Gysin himself (he wrote the book) consistently uses the term Master Musicians of Jajouka. This should lay to rest any claim by user opiumjones23 who reinvents history and facts to suit his purposes on Wikipedia and makes it Joujouka, always contentiously dragging in Hamri, who was a known thief in his youth, later a painter, and never a musician, who was not born in Jajouka but in Ksar-el-Kebir, for his “controversial” purposes only. Gysin did at times spelled it Joujouka (remember that Mohamed Hamri was illiterate and did not read or write up until his death), and regardless of the original LP release of a single work Brian Presents the Pipes of Pan at Joujouka (later released as Brian Jones Presents the Pipes of Pan at Jajouka (it is also very clear from the many sources below that the Master Musicians of Jajouka is, by far, the preferred spelling. The point is, the village is most commonly referred to as Jajouka, and the group has recently been referred to as Jajouka on the Moroccan Presse Agency (MAP in news releases and in Le Matin du Sahara et du Maghreb out of Casablanca in recent reports.
I suggest when you look at these sources, you search inside each book for Master Musicians of Jajouka and you will see these instances and the pages they are mentioned within each book using a Google Book search on these books:
Wising Up the Marks: A Modern William Burroughs
By Timothy S. Murphy
Published by University of California Press, 1998
A Google Book Search within this book actually quotes William Burroughs on page 222, and other instances where Jajouka is used are on pages 224, 225, 258, 264, and 272; Jajouka is consistently used either as Master Musicians of Jajouka or Jajouka, also referring to the Moroccan village, throughout this book. It seems that William Burroughs also wrote liner notes for an LP album, Apocalypse Across the Sky, a Master Musicians of Jajouka album, with Bachir Attar as the leader of the group.
Note also that within this book it has Master Musicians of Jajouka and Ornette Coleman, not a “Joujouka” as opiumjones_23 claims on his revisions of Master Musicians of Joujouka and other pages on Wikipedia. This, of course, needs to be clarified. As I pointed out to administrator-mediator Fayssal yesterday, even the official Ornette Coleman website uses only the spelling as Master Musicians of Jajouka.
Global Minstrels: Voices of World Music By Elijah Wald Published by CRC Press, 2006
Master Musicians of Jajouka is listed, and Bachir Attar is described as the "hereditary leader". The spelling of the village and the group as the Master Musicians of Jajouka (not "featuring Bachir Attar") is used this book on page 204. “Joujouka” or Master Musicians of Joujouka is not used even once in the book, and there is no mention of Mohamed Hamri either.
Mass Mediations: New Approaches to Popular Culture in the Middle East and Beyond By Walter Armbrust Published by University of California Press, 2000
The term/use Master Musicians of Jajouka or word Jajouka referring to the group or village is used in many places throughout this book, which also elaborates a little on Hamri and “Joujouka”, as well as this quote on page 159: “"Zahjoukah" is the closest representation of the old Jbala pronounciation of the name…” Thus, the use of Zahjoukah on Wikipedia is actually how it could be pronounced, but not the preferred spelling of the village or group, which is Jajouka. See also page 750, which refers to Hamri as a “reputed smuggler” who was learning to paint. Note also that it was Paul Bowles and Brion Gysin who first heard the music of Jajouka at a festival outside Tangier, Morocco.
World Music: The Rough Guide By Simon Broughton, Mark Ellingham, Richard Trillo, Orla Duane, Vanessa Dowell Published by Rough Guides, 1999
Information about World Music, including the Master Musicians of Jajouka, Brian Jones, Mick Jagger, recording the Rolling Stones Steel Wheels album with the Master Musicians of Jajouka and leader Bachir Attar. Includes photographs.
Nothing is True - Everything is Permitted: The Life of Brion Gysin By John Geiger (not to be confused with opiumjones_23 film) Published by The Disinformation Company, 2005
There are several instances in this book about Paul Bowles, who first heard the music of the Master Musicians of Jajouka in 1950 at a moussem near Tangier. Meticulouly referenced footnotes from acual sources or letters are used throughout this book. Note this des cription of Mohamed Hamri at the bottom of page 91 and top of page 92: “ A young Moroccan, Mohamed Hamri, who had been introduced to Gysin by Paul Bowles, acted as Gysin’s ‘little back door’ into Moslem manners and ways. Hamri was described as Gysin’s ‘blood brother… (an) irrepressible, busy, puckish, volatile, laughing Mediterranean trickster.” (footnote provided. A reputed smuggler who ran contraband from the International Zone into the Spanish and French Protectorates, Hamri ‘spent his entire time trying to get hold of money illicitly,” Bowles observed. He often succeeded. On one occasion he borrowed a suit from Bowles to attend a wedding, indeed a suit Bowles had work to his own wedding, then failed to return it…..” Also, note that Hamri stole an expensive radio from Bowles, etc. This caused a temporary rift in the friendship between Bowles and Gysin, but they later were friendly again for year to come.
This book also says that it was Hamri’s mother who had come from Jajouka, not Hamri himself. There is no reputable source in print which claims that Mohamed Hamri was born in the village. Rather, even in the Indepenedent obituary of Mohamed Hamri, writte n by opiumjones_23 himself , Hamri was born in Ksar-el-Kebir, Morocco. Michelle has this fact in her book Paul Bowles and the Literary Renegades of Tangier also.
Note that in the above book, a search within the book for Master Musicians has on page 103 “In December 1954, he opened a restaurant featuring the Master Musicians of Jajouka. Called the 1001 Nights, it was located in a narrow wing….” note the spelling as Jajouka.
Page 145: “Gysin's fascination with the Master Musicians of Jajouka is echoed by Burroughs' repeated evocation of them, the "Pan God of Panic piping blue notes through...” William Burroughs also became interested in the music of the Master Musicians of Jajouka (not “Joujouka”). There are references to Robert Palmer, Augusta Palmer’s father who visited the village, etc. This is a well-researched book.
The Rock Snob’s Dictionary: An Essential Lexicon of Rockological Knowledge By David Kamp, Steven Daly Published by Broadway Books, 2005
This book refers to The Master Musicians of Jajouka.
On the Track: A Guide to Contemporary Film Scoring By Fred Karlin, Rayburn Wright Contributor Rayburn Wright Published by Routledge, 2004
On page 95, there is reference to Howard Shore, conducting the London Philharmonic Orchestra, using The Master Musicians of Jajouka (led by Bachir Attar) for his 2005 film The Cell. It also says: “Ornette Coleman performing with The Master Musicians of Jajouka…” Wikipedia user opiumjones23 claims that Ornette Coleman recorded with his “Joujouka', which is absolutely untrue.
Anthropologica Published by Canadian Anthropology Society Date unknown, but it refers to Master Musicians of Jajouka Featuring Bachir Attar on a release of their album Apocalypse Across the Sky, and also has a lesser known spelling Jahjouka, once. Jajouka Rolling Stone: A Fable of Gods and Heroes By Stephen Davis Published by Random House, 1993 Original from the University of California 0A Digitized May 13, 2008
References The Master Musicians of Jajouka and Bachir Attar, The Rolling Stones performing with Jajouka led by Bachir Attar, and Apocalypse Across the Sky album of the Master Musicians led by Bachir Attar. There are 30 references in this book to the Master Musicians of Jajouka. There are 3 references in this book referring to Jajouka as the spelling of the village, not once is it spelled as Joujouka which is how Wikipedia has it.
The Autobiography of Donovan: The Hurdy Gurdy Man By Donovan Leitch, Donovan Published by Macmillan, 2007
This autobiography of singer Donovan refers to the Master Musicians of Jajouka, and states on page 105: “Linda [Donovan’s wife] also told me more about the darker side of Brian Jones. He had been back to Morocco to record ‘The Pipes of Pan”. He had been introduced to the Master Musicians of Jajouka through the bohemian painter Brion Gysin, friend of Paul Bowles and mentor to William Burroughs. Brian learned from Gysin that the musicians of Jajouka continued seven-hundred year-old traditions, the ancient rites of Pan.” No spelling of Joujouka in this book either.
The Rough Guide to Rock: the definitive guide to more than 1200 artists and bands By Peter Buckley Published by Rough Guides, 2003
Three pages reference the Master Musicians of Jajouka (Bachir Attar), and various recordings, and no references to user opiumjones23's “Joujouka” offshoot, with only 3 CDs on the SubRosa label in Belgium.
Book of Lies: The Disinformation Guide to Magick and the Occult By Richard Metzger, Grant Morrison Contributor Grant Morrison Published by The Disinformation Company, 2003
As I wrote Fayssal previously, this book quotes Brion Gysin, to refer to the village as Jajouka and the group as The Master Musicians of Jajouka. Has several photographs of Brion Gysin. The author met with Brion Gysin in Paris and he interviewed him.=2 0The book also says, on page 115: “On one of my first visits to Paris to meet with Gysin I was blessed with a special evening. After looking into the Dream Machine for a couple of hours, Bachir Attar, then the son of the Master Musician of Jajouka—he is now the Master Musician himself after his father’s death [this clearly implies that there is a hereditary leadership as leader and he says Bachir is the leader of the Master Musicians of Jajouka, in effect…something to this effect needs to be clearly pointed out in Wikipedia pages]—and his brother, cooked me a ceremonial meal. During the feast Bachir played flute music…”
On page 92, “This music captured his [Gysin’s] imagination and after years of searching he traced the musicians, with the aid of the Moroccan painter Hamri, to Jajouka, ...” (Hamri pronounced the village/group as “Joujouka”, but clearly Brion Gysin spelled it correctly as Jajouka in his later years, and the illiterate painter Hamri is described by opiumjones23 as an “intellectual” in his obituary of Hamri in the English newspaper, The Independent, which in print says that Hamri was born in Ksar-el-Kebir, not in his mother's village, Jajouka. Yes, Hamri was born in Ksar-el-Kebir, but he was clearly not an intellectual and never described that way in any published references and books. Most books who have researched this described him as a petty thief, smuggler, bully, con artist, who became an accomplished artist, but never as a musician. Hamri had no claim to the music of the village, and in fact he stole money from the musicians. I have met him and his wife over the years I have lived in Tangier, and when he was sober, he seemed OK. I do not dispute his talent as a painter, however, he is no "Picasso of Morocco" as is on the Tangier Wikipedia page. He called himself, "Hamri, The Painter of Morocco." He was not the "National Painter of Morocco" either.
The Dream at the End of the World: Paul Bowles and the Literary Renegades in Tangier By Michelle Green Published by HarperCollins, 1991 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Mar 4, 2008
This book says Mohamed Hamri was born in Ksar-el-Kebir, and it refers to the village of Jajouka and the Master Musicians of Jajouka. Michelle Greene does not use any spelling of the village as Joujouka, nor does she refer to any group with the name the Master Musicians of Joujouka. It seems well-researched and interviewed many people, viewed sources and letters, interviews, etc.
Keith Richards: Satisfaction By Christopher Sandford Published by Carroll & Graf Publishers, 2004
According to the Rolling Stones
By Mick Jagger, Keith Richards, Dora Loewenstein, Charlie Watts, Philip Dodd, Ron Wood
Published by Chronicle Books, 2003
See page 257 about recording Steel Wheels album, and on page 258, Mick Jagger himself writes using the spelling as Jajouka, and there is a photograph of the Rolling Stones in Tangier with the Master Musicians of Jajouka's leader, Bachir Attar. Please read carefully the photo captions, where Jagger says that these are the same musicians (Jajouka, not "Joujouka") that Brian Jones recorded in July 1968, etc. This is from the Rolling Stones themselves.
I could go on and on, but you get the point: there are no reputable sources other than opiumjones_23’s use of the Internet, unsourced blog comments, adding slanderous comments about me, as he did on a Chelsea Hotel blog, etc., that truly justify any of “Joujouka” and these sources all seem to take the position that Bachir Attar is indeed the hereditary leader of the Master Musicians of Jajouka, and that Hamri was not a musician, not born in Jajouka. In the historical context, the Master Musicians of Jajouka, sometimes spelled Zahjouka, or Jahjouka by Moroccans, and usually as Jajouka in English and in the West in general, Hamri was a very minor player in the music except that he exploited the musicians and his only claim to fame with them is that he brought his close friend Brion Gysin, who later brought Rolling Stones' founder/guitarist Brian Jones to the village to make one recording of the Pipes of Pan. The Rolling Stones did indeed grant to Bachir Attar, as the acknowledged leader of the Master Musicians of Jajouka, permission to re-release the original Brian Jones recording of Pipes of Pan and the spelling was corrected to what was commonly used. If the artwork was changed from the original, so be it. What is so controversial about changing to a new cover for a new release?
I respectfully request that some administrators and concerned editors correct this information on Wikipedia, as soon as possible. This misinformation on Wikipedia has been there for months and even years. It must be noted that Brion Gysin spelled the name as Jajouka in his own writings.
There are many other Google Book results for Master Musicians of Jajouka, more often than not referring to Bachir Attar as the current leader. There are also video documentaries which mention this, and future documentaries and films are to be released in 2009 regarding Jajouka (long before opiumjones_23 appeared on the scene with his "Joujouka" incarnation. These and letters from important people involved in the estate of Brion Gysin and William Burroughs, also support the Bachir Attar as leader and spelling of the village and group as Master Musicians of Jajouka. You can see some of these documents on the current Jajouka.com site. The group has now established its own record label, Jajoukarecords and will be releasing a new CD early in January 2009.
I welcome the help and assistance of concerned individuals and Wikipedian administrators to resolve this peacefully. I just don't want to be smeared on the Web, in Wikipedia user talk/discussion pages or on any blogs' comments, particularly by opiumjones_23, with false accusations and in the case of the Chelsea Hotel blog, false statements supporting a libelous and accusation by person in Australia, accusing me of being a "serial" harrasser by sending numerous e-mails. Unfortunately, opiumjones_23 has added his "comments" to this blog, claiming that I am guilty of e-mail harrassment, and he knows this to be completely untrue, and he has again, as he has done many times on discussion pages of Wikipedia, falsely accused me. Shame. Smearing someone's name on the Internet is is not productive. I am a fact seeker, however, I do know well Bachir and Cherie, manager of the group, and I have also met Hamri and his wife, and Bowles, since I have lived part of each of the past 25 years in Morocco. I have only visited the village--Jajouka--once. One other Wiki user attempted to get me fired from one job as a webmaster, and it did not work. This woman, who has done edits on Wikipedia, also runs a site for Bowles, and she now links mainly to opiumjones_23's Joujouka MySpace page and his main joujouka.net site, and others, claiming "historical facts". However, she is totally ignorant of the real facts, and has had numerous glaring mistakes on her PB and JB sites, two of many domains which she bought up over the years. Yes, having a dot com domain with someone's name, does not make it official, and this is the case with brionjones.com as well. It's not an official site. and yet Wikipedia still has on the Brion Gysin page that it is an official site for Gysin, when it is not, and no where on the site does it say so. This needs to be edited or completely removed. The internet can be a highly deceitful place, filled with misinformation and disinformation, wars and campaigns used to influence thoughts. It is unfortunately being used all the time to attack people via comments. This is why I am opposed to using real names in general on user talk and discussion pages, including people who are not even directly involved in this particular matter.
Upon reading the other side's POV, it is clear that he takes a position that only Hamri was and is the most important figure in the musicians affairs, and that Bachir "never did anything" slant is clearly unnecessary and another example of the smear tactics used by opiumjones_23. Hamri, as well as being an artist who was born in Ksar-el-Kebir, established the dubious reputation as a bully and petty thief who stole money intended for the musicians. No wonder he was fired. Since the Walrus is a blog, it is not really a "reliable source"; and, let it be known that opiumjones_23 has used its comments section to promote his Brian Jones festival in "Joujouka".
Regarding MSN Encarta's map references, it is clear that Jajouka or Jahjouka are used, but different locations. Jajouka is where the saint's tomb is located. Joujouka is not used on any reliable map source as a "variation" of the spelling of the village. Again, it was Hamri and Gysin who used that (and Gysin later used the spelling as Jajouka). Do not forget that Hamri was illiterate. It was his mother who was from the village and there are references to that point. Nor was he ever a musician. It is absolutely clear that the spelling of Jajouka is, by far, the most used in all contemporary and historical cited references both for the village and the name of the group of Master Musicians which are seen in Google Books, and other sources.
The 1973 Oui Magazine article by Burroughs does use a spelling of Joujouka, but do not forget that William S. Burroughs himself unambiguiously stated in a November 1994 letter[16] that he regarded Bachir Attar as the 'sole rightful inheritor of the mantle of Leader of the Master Musicians of Jajouka', and Burroughs further wrote that 'his [Attar's] band of musicians, who are the only rightful Master Musicians'. Let it also be known that Burroughs also used a spelling of Tangiers for Tangier, and everyone knows that Tangier is, by far, the only correct spelling in common use. Tangiers is a secondary spelling, mainly used by some in the United Kingdom, but it is abhorrent to those who know the correct spelling of the city. Likewise the spelling and use of Jajouka is much preferred over the Joujouka spelling and use, and hundreds of sources use Jajouka.
Once again, user Opiumjones_23 has clouded the issue with his renaming of the group 'featuring Bachir Attar'. It is abundantly clear that the name of the group led by Bachir Attar is the Master Musicians of Jajouka on nearly all of their albums and recordings. It is high time that Wikipedia fix this glaring mistake and revert the redirection that was put in by opiumjones_23. At one time or another he has claimed that Attar does not live in the village, that he lives in New York, etc. Bachir Attar lives in Jajouka, Morocco.
In his comments at the bottom of this page, Opiumjones_23 states, as factual: "Literary criticism and biography citing Joujouka Academics and writers who knew Burroughs and Gysin like Barry Miles Victor Bockris and the late Prof Eric Mottram have all used the Joujouka spelling. Miles also has used Jajouka in a recent book." Well, contrary to what the user says, here is the Google Book entry for Barry Miles:
The Beat Hotel: Ginsberg, Burroughs and Corso in Paris, 1957-1963 By Barry Miles Edition: reprint, illustrated Published by Grove Press, 2001
On page page 153, it says: "they danced to the music of Jajouka", and "Brian's love for the music of Jajouka inspired him to open a restaurant..."
On page 215 it refers to Jajouka music
and on page 266 the use and spelling is, again, Jajouka.
So much for factual accuracy in Opiumjones_23's statements at the bottom of this page. As a matter of fact, Barry Miles does not use a 'Joujouka" spelling anywhere in this book. And if "Joujouka" is a spelling he may have used (where, exactly?), then why did he later change his spelling to Jajouka?
It is absurd to have a determined enemy of Bachir Attar and the rightful legitimate group of Master Musicians of Jajouka he leads (as pointedly made clear by William Burroughs, who also stated no other person or group was in his thinking the rightful group), to want to have on his Wikipedia page that they are one and the same. That would be even a worse scenario. My conclusion is to eliminate the confusion by removing one major the source of it by permanently removing the Master Musicians of Joujouka page on Wikipedia. Failure to do anything else would continue to perpetrate this problem on Wikipedia.
Fayssal. When are you going to remove the redirect, insisted upon by user opiumjones, that goes to Featuring Bachir Attar? This is not correct. The group is known as the Master Musicians of Jajouka, and it is that way on other Wikipedia entries, including the Steel Wheels album. On Steel Wheels, I also strong urge you to insert a comma and then, led by Bachir Attar, to avoid confusion as who the Rolling Stones actually recorded with. There should be no confusion which might lead some to believe that the Rolling Stones actually recorded with "Joujouka", when it was the Master Musicians of Jajouka who are led by Bachir Attar.
While on the redirect issue, opiumjones is totally wrong in describing the Featuring Bachir Attar on releases. There should not be a redirection. The name of the group is simply The Master Musicians of Jajouka, who are indeed led by Bachir Attar, who does live in the village, not in New York. This redirection is something which opiumjones wanted to emphasize Bachir Attar, and then claim that he "spends much of his time in New York.", a put-down and an innacurate one. That way opiumjones can claim (wrongly) hat the group he manages is comprised of musicians who are "still living in the village".
Another point, Joujoukan quality is not the same as Jajouka or even Joujouka. This is hardly an endorsement of opiumjones' "Joujouka" band by the group U2. The group claims no current support by the current royal family of Morocco. However, in the past, the Sultans of Morocco did support and use this group. While on the redirect issue, opiumjones is totally wrong in describing the Featuring Bachir Attar on releases. There should not be a redirection to "Featuring Bachir Attar". The name of the group is simply The Master Musicians of Jajouka, who are indeed led by Bachir Attar, who does live in the village, not in New York. This redirection is something which opiumjones wanted to emphasize Bachir Attar, a "solo career", etc., and then claim that he "spends much of his time in New York.", a put-down and an innacurate one. That way he is free to say his group is comprised of musicians who are "still living in the village". — Preceding unsigned comment added by BKLisenbee (talk • contribs) 15:21, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
Bachir Attar does not "trade" using the name "featuring Bachir Attar". Check the official Jajouka site, and the "led Bachir Attar" under the name of the group he leads, which is: the Master Musicians of Jajouka. Led by is there so that people can instantly see that The Master Musicians of Jajouka's explicit leader is Bachir Attar. It's plain and simple.
User:Catalpa's concerns
I must commend Fayssal for rendering the 8000-odd words above into bullet points. However, rather than addressing them as a list, it is best to deal with a few core issues. User:BKLisenbee advocates adopting a policy across several Wikipedia pages which would elevate and promote Bachir Attar as the “rightful” Jajouka/Joujouka. User:BKLisenbee uses language such as "rightful inheritor of the mantle" in reference to Bachir Attar and his claim to lead the musicians of the village.
Therefore it is essential to first deal with the claim that Bachir Attar is the “hereditary leader” of the Master Musicians. This is the crux of the entire dispute and all other issues revolve around it.
- Hereditary leadership
The first reference to the alleged hereditary leadership in a book is in Paul Bowles' letters (published in 1995). The publication date is important because the assertion was made at a time when the controversy in the media over the re-release of the Brian Jones presents the Pipes of Pan at Joujouka album first arose. In reference to Cherie Nutting, “Married to Bachir Attar, hereditary leader of the Master Musicians of Jajouka."
I can find no prior source or reference that leadership of the musicians was hereditary in Joujouka/Jajouka. This claim first appeared as part of an attempt to promote Bachir Attar as a commercial artist. Only after that date do we find sources referring to Bachir inheriting the position as chief. They include the1999 World Music Rough Guide, which also mentioned the existence of a rival group of Jajouka musicians. “Another, rival, Jajouka group exists and has also made an album and toured. They are not well regarded by the Bachir Attar group.” World Music The Rough Guide 1999 (p. 572) by Simon Broughton, Mark Ellingham, Richard Trillo, Orla Duane, Vanessa Dowell - 1999 (p. 572). The same book notes that Bachir Attar lived in New York (p.574).
If leadership of the musicians were in fact hereditary, then Bachir's father, Hadj Abdesalam Attar would have inherited the title from his father before him. There is no evidence of this. In fact, authoritative sources are either silent on the issue or name other leaders. Philip Schuyler makes no mention of hereditary leadership, nor do Brion Gysin, Burroughs, Hamri, or Robert Palmer. Whereas Hadj Abdesalam Attar was a leader of the musicians at the time of his death in 1982, we have sources to the effect that he was not the leader in the 1960s and 1970s
“We could no longer see him. ‘Who is he?’ I asked Hamri. ‘Berdu, the Master’, Hamri replied. ‘The Master?’ The Master Musician of Joujouka’. Rosemary Woodruff Leary, "The Master Musicians" in Ed. Paul Krassner. Psychedelic Trips for the Mind, reprinted 2001, pp 58-62.
This indicates that Berdouz (real name: Mohamed Attar, a drummer) was leader at the time.
In 1976, Soft Need published a verbatim conversation between Rikki Stein, then manager of the musicians of the village, and Brion Gysin. In the conversation, the leaders are referred to as being Mallim Fedal and Mallim Berdouz; the circumstances of the anecdote date it in 1971-72 (Stein and Hamri were at the Rolling Stones' office in London at the time). Neither Berdouz nor Fedal were Bachir's grandfather, nor were they father and son. Therefore, the claim that leadership is hereditary begins to crumble. See Rikki Stein with Udo Berger, Brion Gysin and Jerry Baskin, "Hamri Send Up with our Shadows" in Ed Udo Berger, Soft Need No. 17, Brion Gysin Special, (Paris /Basel, 1977) p.66.
It is also interesting to note that Bachir is not the eldest son of Hadj Abdesalam Attar, and that he has older brothers where are musicians. How to explain this in the context of claimed heredity? Why didn't the eldest brother "take the mantle"?
If leadership was hereditary Bachir Attar would have assumed this on the death of his father in 1982. Therefore it is notable that when the New York Times publicised an up coming concert he performed in New York in 1989 he is described as "Attar Bachir is also from Morocco; he's a master musician from the Jajouka tribe and he plays two different types of flutes." Source"Sounds Around Town" By PETER WATROUS, Published: January 6, 1989, New York Times. No leadership status is accorded, which, for a journalist, would have been of enough interest to mention. We can see the evidence of this in more recent years.
The claim of hereditary leadership arose as part of a campaign to establish Bachir Attar as a commercial artist, and is not backed by any historical facts. Bachir is also the first musician from the village to seek headline billing apart from his fellow musicians (i.e. the "featuring Bachir Attar" phrase).
It can be concluded that Bachir Attar's claim to be hereditary leader of the village musicians is false. Therefore the assumptions of rights or legitimacy based on that false claim are void.
- Two groups: Jajouka/Joujouka and Master Muiciians of Jajouka featuring/led by Bachir Attar
The official Moroccan spelling is Zahjouka. Clearly, neither of the two groups of musicians currently performing use this official spelling. No particular group is more or less legitimate by virtue of using a particular spelling in its name.
Up until Bachir Attar launched his solo musical career, the names "Master Musicians of Joujouka" and "Master Musicians of Jajouka" were synonymous. Despite claims that Bachir Attar's group is the "real" Master Musicians of Jajouka, he actually trades under the names “Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar” and currently “Master Musicians of Jajouka led by Bachir Attar”.
In the 1960s, both the Joujouka and Jajouka spellings were used to refer to the musicians of the village. In a 1962 letter from Brion Gysin to Paul Bowles, quoted in John Geiger's "Nothing is True - Everything is Permitted", Gysin speaks of a nightclub “run by polished peasants of Joujouka quality”. (John Geiger Nothing is True - Everything is Permitted: The Life of Brion Gysin, 2005 .p.179.) Gysin also used the spelling Jajouka, as documented by User:BKLisenbee.
The Master Musicians of Joujouka are the cited artists on the original Brian Jones LP, released by Rolling Stones Records in 1971. Then in 1974, an LP entitled "Master Musicians of Jajouka" was released at a time when newspaper articles and books all used the name Joujouka. The name change was part of a dispute at the time over the recording. However it was recorded by the same group who worked with Brian Jones in 1968. In 1980 the group toured again as Master Musicians of Jajouka. The tour billed Master Musicians of Jajouka in 1980 ref The Guardian (1959-2003). London (UK): Sep 12, 1980. p. 3 (1 page).
I suggest, without prejudice, the page on Bachir Attar’s group is correctly named though he has just changed his trading name so this might be added as an also known as “Master Musicians of Jajouka led by Bachir Attar.
The Master Musicians of Joujouka page should reflect that they are also known as Master Musicians of Jajouka
I have several other points to make and sources to add re above points.
Catapla (talk) 19:12, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Re Brian Jones presents the Pipes of Pan at Joujouka (Rolling Stomnes Records, 1971). The artwork and Lp mixing and mastering was all supervised by Brian Jones before his death. The LP is cited in dozens if not hundreds of books. The page should reflect the history of the recording of which the controversial 1995 release in which altered Jones' intentions should be covered as one part of that history. I will provide citations and full articles to any editor who wishes. The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography is one of the most important verifiable sources in the world.
The latest edition is 64 Vols from 2005 and online by subscription with 55, 000 entries. Brian Jones entry in Oxford DNB states“He recorded Pipes of Pan at Joujouka”. This most recent edition was published in 2005. Catapla (talk) 02:43, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
- Re Burroughs.
In his 1973 Oui article Burrough uses the Joujouka spelling. In his last writing published posthumously in 2001 and edited by his literary editor James Grauerholz, Burroughs also uses the Joujouka spelling in reference to Master Musicians of Joujouka. The first listed is an important one as it is Burroughs last book.
It must also be noted that Burrough last visted Jououka/Jajouka in 1973. Last Words: The Final Journals of William S. Burroughs - Page 52
William S. Burroughs, James Grauerholz - Literary Collections - 2001 - 304 pages
“Did we? I'm ready to hit it again. So where. The Pan Rites of Joujouka — a boy danced in front of me for a few seconds — impersonal as Pan, God of nature. .”
Further Burrough works also use that spelling
Conversations with William S. Burroughs - Page 56
by William S. Burroughs, Allen Hibbard - Literary Criticism - 2000 - 234 pages
But I notice that they are tending, at least in the Joujouka record [Brian Jones Presents The Pipes of Pan at Joujouka, Rolling Stones Records], ...
Burroughs Live: The Collected Interviews of William S. Burroughs, 1960-1997 - Page 167
by William S. Burroughs, Sylvère Lotringer - Fiction - 2001 - 847 pages
But I notice that they are tending, at least in the Joujouka record [Brian Jones Presents The Pipes of Pan at Joujouka, Rolling Stones Records], .
Word Virus: The William S. Burroughs Reader - Page 361
by William S. Burroughs, James Grauerholz, Ira Silverberg, Ann Douglas - Fiction - 2000 - 576 pages
When Burroughs was invited by Oui magazine in late 1972 to visit the Moroccan hill country of Joujouka, home of the Master Musicians, de Gramont and Gysin
Paul Bowles by His Friends - Page 15
ed Gary Pulsifer - Literary Criticism - 1992 - 160 pages
William Burroughs“I was there on an assignment from Oui magazine to do something on the Joujouka festival. Did you ever get to Joujouka by the way?
- Literary criticism and biography citing Joujouka Academics and writers who knew Burroughs and Gysin like Barry Miles Victor Bockris and the late Prof Eric Mottram have all used the Joujouka spelling. Miles also has used Jajouka in a recent book.
- Re The village name as both spellings are current in books in print and in media it would be wise for the village page name to reflect this more strongly.
- Re Ecarta map there are two spots marked on the map jajouka on one side of road and jahjouka on other. This hardly proves its reliability as regards accepted official spellings as it has two villages almost in the same place using different variations of the village name.
map Catapla (talk) 02:40, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- re Walrus and sources
BKLisenbee says above "You may add a recent article/interview from Walrus magazine on Bachir Attar and Jajouka, [17] however, please take note that two links were added to opiumjones_23's Joujouka MySpace site, as well as to his own Joujouka.net via comments." In fact in the body of the article it clearly states "Bachir Attar emphasizes that he carries the true Master Musician lineage: it was his father, Hadj Abdessan Attar, who held the title of Master Musician until his death in 1982. Another group also playing as authentic Master Musicians of Joujouka exists (there are various transliteration of the village’s name). One music critic calls the situation “a tragic development … an example of what can happen when music from a developing country gets pulled into a the influence of the music industry.” For the novice listener, the fact that there are two groups playing as the Master Musicians of Jajouka/Joujouka seems a bizarre distraction from the larger issue: that of preserving musical traditions from extinction."
It further sates that "All is not without hope, however, at least in Jajouka. Frank Rynne, who is affiliated with The Master Musicians of Joujouka, is organizing a festival this month link in riginal artcle in Jajouka to celebrate the 40th anniversary of Brian Jones coming to the village and to promote peace, argues that Jajouka’s musical tradition does have a future. “The claim that there are no young musicians in the village is not accurate and does nothing to preserve the village or its legacy. There are plenty [of] young people in the village who actively participate in the culture, life, music and other activities in the village,” he writes. The future of the music might rest on the interest and abilities of young Jajouka musicians, but if Western listeners continue to be interested in and support the music, this will probably help them tremendously."
The Walrus article also links to The Faded Myth of the Goat-God an article by a german journalist who visited Joujouka in 2001 Arian Fariborz. This article states "Nevertheless Bachir Attar retained his ambition to link his name with that of the music of Joujouka and to bring it out into the world. He cooperated with top ranking western pop stars, an article by but he made such big concessions that little was left of the original form of the music of the Master Musicians.
And, unlike Hamri, Bachir Attar never did anything for the good of the village and its inhabitants with the considerable income he gained from the commercial marketing of the Joujouka brand. He began to recruit people who had nothing to do with Joujouka – commercial musicians from the nearby town of Ksar El-Kebir or Tangier.
"The Music of Joujouka featuring Bachir Attar", recorded a few years ago together with the Indian DJ Talvin Singh is Attar's latest album. It lacks any trace of the fascinating musical content of the traditional Master Musicians."
Therefore the situation is not as clear as BKLisenbee presents. Independent media interviewing Bachir Attar or Master Musicians of Joujouka/Jajouka refer to the fact that the village has spawned two groups. One Master Musicians of Jouojuka (sometiimes Jajouka) in the village Jajouka/joujouka/Zahjouka and one "featuring" of "led by" Bachir Attar that is not based there or in same cases not even from there.
A Mojo article in October 2008 noted the villages participation in the Brian Jones 40th Anniversary Festival and recorded the attendece of Anita pallenberg and John Dunbar and the proceeding were precided over by Ahmed Attar and Mallim Ali Abdelszm Attar who at 94 is the oldest surviving musicia from the Brian Jones recording seeion in 1968 who also played with the group,in the 1950s at Brion Gysin and Hamri's 1001 Nights resturant in Tangier. source Mojo October 2008.
This indicates that the village and the oldest master is allied to the group in the village who represnt their village MMOJoujouka. This further erodes any current claim regarding hereditory leadership.
Catapla (talk) 02:23, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
been off line for a while there are some new issues raised and a few points re the list that I will deal with asap.Catapla (talk) 03:25, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
User:FayssalF's summary of BKLisenbee's points
Well, summarizing user:BKLisenbee's concerns above while awaiting for user:Opiumjones 23's ones. I may miss something but this so correct me if I am wrong. BKLisenbee feels that...
There needs to be only one article entitled Master Musicians of Jajouka, with some information about the problems. It could be as a result of Wikipedia's having two separate pages, one for Master Musicians of Jajouka (which opiumjones23 felt should be redirected to Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar). This redirection should be eliminated. The other band of musicians, is what opiumjones23 calls the Master Musicians of Joujouka. One group, one music, one page on Wikipedia for this group seems to be the correct way to proceed. It is clearly the Master Musicians of Jajouka;
Bowles was accused of all kinds of misdeads;- Personal names and links to outside sites are still on User opiumjones_23 and User Talk Discussion pages, indexed in Google and perhaps other search engines;
- Non-notable references and sources are still being used;
- The place of birth of the painter Mohamed Hamri is wrong on Wikipedia. opiumjones_23 wrote an obituary saying he was born in Ksar-el-Kebir, Morocco (still a "reputable" source on Wikipedia), and Wikipedia says Hamri was born in Joujouka;
- The same obituary says that Hamri was immortalized by Paul Bowles in a book, and it turns out that it was Brion Gysin's book The Process where Hamri was "immortalized" as a character. This same obituary calls a totally illiterate an "intellectual";
- Opiumjones_23 has changed his tune to say that a limited-edition art pamphlet "biography" (not a real book) about the artist Mohamed Hamri, written by an Irishman who fooled many people over years, into believing that he would be the next king of Ireland;
- Several notable books, have references to Hamri as being born in Ksar-el-Kebir,Morocco; thus I think this definitely needs to be changed to Ksar-el-Kebir. It needs also to be noted that Hamri was never a musician. he was well-known in Tangier as a petty thief and smuggler;
- [BKLisenbee] was once threatened with legal action;
- opiumjones23 has repeatedly tried to say that his musicians represent the "original" group, but he has gone well beyond this to repeatedly discredit Attar, whose father was the hereditary leader of the group.much of this has spread to blogs and only today I found a blog which seems to perpetrate this notion;
- William Burroughs said that there was no dispute that Bachir Attar was the only rightful inheritor of the mantle of Leader of the Master Musicians of Jajouka, and you can read that on the official Jajouka.com site under documents;
[BKLisenbee] had long ago put on a simple MSN Encarta link showing the spelling and precise location of the village on the Jajouka page (for the village). Someone removed this, and for clarity's sake, it really should be there, along with other map references to the village, which [BKLisenbee] have visited only once;- The Master Musicians of Jajouka group whose father was the undisputed leader at the time of the Brian Jones recording in 1969 was Bachir's father, not the Ahmed El Attar that opiumjones_23 claims;
- Google Books provides a wealth of information about the Master Musicians of Jajouka and Bachir Attar, as well as Brion Gysin and Jajouka, William Burroughs and Jajouka, etc. Please look at these books in Google Books. There are many instances throughout this book where Brion Gysin himself (he wrote the book) consistently uses the term Master Musicians of Jajouka;
Thank you for the breakdown. I will be forwarding some sources in the near future. Catalpa (talk) 23:54, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- Poking! -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 14:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
User:FayssalF's summary of Catalpa's points
- User:BKLisenbee advocates adopting a policy across several Wikipedia pages which would elevate and promote Bachir Attar as the “rightful” Jajouka/Joujouka.
- In the 1960s, both the Joujouka and Jajouka spellings were used to refer to the musicians of the village.
- Hereditary leadership of Bachir Attar's --which ,according to Catalpa, was first appeared in a book is in Paul Bowles' letters (published in 1995). -- is disputed.
- If leadership of the musicians were in fact hereditary, then Bachir's father, Hadj Abdesalam Attar would have inherited the title from his father before him but authoritative sources are either silent on the issue or name other leaders.
- Writings of Rosemary Woodruff Leary(Timothy Leary's wife), who visited Joujuka in September 1969, implicated Berdouz (real name: Mohamed Attar, a drummer) was leader at the time. The claim that leadership is hereditary is crumbled.
- Bachir is not the eldest son of Hadj Abdesalam Attar. The claim of hereditary leadership arose as part of a campaign to establish Bachir Attar as a commercial artist. It can be concluded that Bachir Attar's claim to be hereditary leader of the village musicians is false.
- New York Times publicised an up coming concert he performed in New York in 1989 he is described as "Attar Bachir is also from Morocco; he's a master musician from the Jajouka tribe and he plays two different types of flutes."
- The official Moroccan spelling is Zahjouka. No particular group is more or less legitimate by virtue of using a particular spelling in its name. Up until Bachir Attar launched his solo musical career, the names "Master Musicians of Joujouka" and "Master Musicians of Jajouka" were synonymous. [He] he actually trades under the names “Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar” and currently “Master Musicians of Jajouka led by Bachir Attar”.
- The Master Musicians of Joujouka are the cited artists on the original Brian Jones LP, released by Rolling Stones Records in 1971. Then in 1974, an LP entitled "Master Musicians of Jajouka" was released at a time when newspaper articles and books all used the name Joujouka. The name change was part of a dispute at the time over the recording.
- The Master Musicians of Joujouka page should reflect that they are also known as Master Musicians of Jajouka.
Back to work
Note: The requst that both of you have submitted which asks for having one article only cannot be accepted since realistically both bands exist in the real world. "One is more notable or more original than the other" is not a reason to delete one of them. Otherwise, you can try that at
= fixed or affirmed
= rejected request or assertion
= needs more informationI've started with
I think that there are correct references to both Joujouka and Jajouka in the 60s, eg the Brian Jones album sleeve notes by Gysin used Jajouka in !964 when first published and Bowles used Joujouka in a letter as stated above.Catapla (talk) 03:58, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- Comment: I'm not pointing fingers, I just wanted to notify those who've been involved that I have reverted three of four recent edits by an anonymous IP. I believe both musical groups warrant a mention in this context. The edit I did not revert seemed rather minor, some clarification about an external link. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:14, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
Mohammed Hamri
- The edit is here.
- The reference to the place of birth has to be kept since there is no other reliable source that discusses that. So we have to go with what we have. The reference is also used by Moroccan media regardless of the questioned reputation of the author of the book—which in my opinion is something not relevant. Objectivity comes first.
- The article suffers from an undue weight. I've already done my best to cut some redundant and prose styled edits. I tried to fix it in that direction but it seems that some more work is needed such as adding more content concerning what he is known for; painting. Undue weight is a problem since the musical side of his life gets almost 75% of the content size.
- I tried to use the name Zahjouka though Jajouka may also be used if you want to get rid of the former since his works have always had the name 'Jajouka' then there would be no problems.
I have some articles from the 1950s from Moroccan newspapers which are about his paintings, two by Gyin and reviews of shows.They would help develop his artistic life. the music weight is correct for 50% as he did bring the music of his village to the world and collaborated and organised their first two records and brought The Rolling Stones, Beat connections. that is quite important as he was a Moroccan emerging from colonialism and he proudly promoted his Sufi music culture of to the wider world. Catapla (talk) 03:58, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- re point 5 in catapla's concerns Brion Gysin and Rikki Stein confirm this also in Soft Need 17 interview.Catapla (talk) 04:01, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
re Point 10 Their second LP in 1974 was entitled master Musicians of Jajouka the same Musicians as played as Master Musicians of Joujouka on the Brian Jones 1971 release. Ali Abdelsalm El Attar age 94 and the oldest musician in the village presided over the festival of the Joujouka last year and played on both records. Mojo Oct 2008, Dazed and Confused dec 2008, Onelife Dec 2008 Catapla (talk) 04:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
This source throws up some points , and even mentions wikipedia. past masters by The National , Dubai, UAE Catapla (talk) 04:47, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Regarding Fayssal's edit and comment that the reference to a book claiming Hamri was born in Joujouka, I would like to reiterate that Michelle Greene in her book with extensive information about Hamri and Gysin states that it was Hamri's mother was from Jajouka, and nowhere does she say that Hamri was from Jajouka. It is beyond me why the user's reference to Hamri's obituary in The Independent newspaper cannot be used to substantiate the place of Hamri's birth as Ksar-el-Kebir. It is every bit a legitimate reference as the book which erroneously claims Hamri was born in Joujouka. The author, as stated before, has been known to claim he was Irish royalty, which was proven untrue, so why must Wikipedia believe that the book cannot be partially fabricated. The Independent obituary clearly and unambiguously states that Hamri was born in Ksar-el-Kebir. Thus, perhaps a better solution would be to say that references have stated that Hamri was born in either Ksar-el-Kebir, or Joujouka. Authors have been known to fabricate books, articles, etc, and this is no exception. - BKLisenbee
- BKLisenbee brings valid points, Catalpa. Neither Michelle Greene nor the The Independent state explicitly that he was born in the village. I have to agree with BKL's idea (a better solution would be to say that references have stated that Hamri was born in either Ksar-el-Kebir, or Joujouka). -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 18:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
The National newspaper from Dubai, presented a slanted and one-sided view without any real grasp of all of the facts, presenting only a one-sided article based on an e-mail from the user who promotes his Joujouka. The writer writes so unclearly, and without any sense of doing his research, that he fails to mention that Mick Jagger (and video film crew) went to Jajouka to visit the home of Bachir Attar, leader of the Master Musicians of Jajouka, and the crew had just recorded Bachir and the Master Musicians in Tangier in 1989. Thus, Mick Jagger did not visit "Joujouka" or the user's group, while in the village, they visited Bachir Attar and the Master Musicians of Jajouka. Hamri had no part in that at all. The comments are clear, except for the first one, where the reader can't even seem to spell Bachir correctly, referring to "Bashir's". - BKLisenbee
- Again, I have to agree with BKL here. I must say that I've never read a detailed and emperic description of the historical events such as that. However, the last parts of the article rely much on your e-mail, Catalpa. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 18:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes, Wikipedia is mentioned in the above. And why not? The user who promotes his "Joujouka" band as part of a festival he holds (it is not the village or the musicians who do the organizing), only because he supplied his slant to the writer, who glaringly fails to mention that The Master Musicians of Jajouka led by Bachir Attar had just concluded a successful tour in the United States, including one at The Kennedy Center in Washington, D.C. as part of its elaborate Arabesque Festival of Arab Music. These points were conveniently omitted. It's hack journalism at its worst, in my opinion, and not balanced in any respect.--maroc 17:00, 21 March 2009 (UTC)This unsigned comment by BKLisenbee
- It is kind of balanced BKL. Only the last part of it which can be deemed unbalanced. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 18:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- Re the above comment, the User BKLisenbee has previously said the Independent source can not be used as it says Hamri was an intellectual now he says it can be used.
Re the Walrus, he previously siad it could be used but on discovery taht the article referred to the MMOJoujouka he said it was a blog and can't be used. In fact blogs assiociated with major publications like The Times and The Guardian are often used on Wiki The Walrus is edited by the editors of the magazine and is part of the publication. The National article is another example. It correctly notes the motivation behind certain activities regardiong the music of Jajouka as being cash driven rather than Sufi driven.
Sources are the core of the projectCatapla (talk) 14:50, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- No to blogs Catalpa. You already know why. As for the National, I said above that it is very detailed and accurate. The problem is the last part of it. So if we can use it as a source for the first parts then yes. Most of the last parts rely heavily on your version of the story (your e-mail). Please let's keep ourselves reaseonable guys. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 18:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
---
Bachir Attar
- Here I removed the highly POVedit labelling Hamri as 'a ruthless and tyrannic manager'. We don't label people that was even if they were Hitler.
- Here I did a major cleanup. First, per wp:CRYSTAL.
- By doing the above, I removed the {{npov}} tag.
- I didn't want to make the article look so ugly by placing {{fact}} tags after every unsourced edits. I urge editors to bring sources over here so I can place them there. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 10:39, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
- Added The Independent as a reference to Bachir Attar as the leader of the band. Quoting from the newspaper: Berdouz's real name, it transpires, is Mohamed Attar, and there are three more Mohamed Attars among the 13 musicians here, as well as a Mustapha Attar and a Bachir Attar. The latter, now leader of the group, but an eight-year-old apprentice drummer in 1968. There's one thing which is innaccurate at the Wikipedia article; his date of birth (nothe the eight-year-old apprentice drummer and the year 1968 and compare it with 1964 mentioned in the Wikipedia article. Needs verification.
- Of what band though? He is obviously the leader of his own band he calls Master Musicians of Jajouka led by or featuring Bachir Attar but the article clearly raises the fact that he is not the undisputed hereditary leader etc Your edit makes that clear but future editors should be aware. Catapla (talk) 03:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
- The bit where it says "The claim that Attar's reissue of the Brian Jones album was made by friends of the former manager, ..." seems to be missing something, as it is incomprehensible as it stands. Jonur (talk) 16:32, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
- Removed it. The edit summary is... removed dubious and unsourced sentence (that can be added once RS are added though I don't believe it adds any encyclopedic character). -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 17:55, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I will read the article, I have noted that there has been editing on the pages since this process started, including the non NPOV removal of the disputed tags on Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring bachir Attar. I did not note the attacks on Mohamed Hamri there before. Does anyone know who inserted them? Catapla (talk) 09:23, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
I notice that the Independent UK has allowed some of its archive to be viewed on their site. This is good. the No Stone Unturned article is now available there. No Stone Unturned frank Rynne and Bachir attar discuss Joujouka Jajouka 1995
Nb Bachir Attar does indeed trade as mmoj led by or featuring Bachir Attar.
Catapla's NPOV/POVis clear to Svest. I think that some of the extraneous personal stuff on this page should be redacted also. Svest that would be your call.Catapla (talk) 18:09, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Re master musicians of jajouka featuring bachir Attar there are three refs on the page and a huge pile of inaccurate and unsourced pr. Is Augusta Palmer a "film professor"? I can't find an academic accreditaion for her.
The person who recently uploaded photos removed the disputed tags .
Also BKL is using talk pages on the articles to leave notes not here, that should not be allowed under the rules of this mediation. Catapla (talk) 20:15, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
MOVED TO CATAPLA CONCERNS
- Please understand that we are dealing with the article Bachir Attar. Please don't bring other subjects yet. Let the flow of this page go as prsented above and please help us with the layout. You'd remove parts of your recent posts and repost them when time is appropriate. Thanks. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 23:59, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
- That is a very difficult request as one poster here has added , readded, removed and reeditede as the issues unfolding in such a way as to render folllowing his flow impossible. I am relying only on your summeries at this stage. I must also point out that the number of personal attacks that have posted here by that user that have NOT been queried is too large to strat even mentioning. To be quite honest I think you need to lay down the law. I have left a message on your talk page re breaking the topc ban with unsigend talk page edits by BKL. Catapla (talk) 00:29, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
- That happaned before we started the one-by-one case process. The first stage was a stage for me to listen to all your concerns before addressing them and fixing what should be fixed at every single article. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 00:38, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
I am not sure where to park the above I will move it up to catalpa concerns for the moment. Catapla (talk) 00:29, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
- user:Catalpa/Sandbox would be the most appropriate parking :) Please, that space should not be used to add defaming or attacking statement. I trust you won't. In general, that place would help you organize your ideas and help better solve this case. The same advice goes to BKLisenbee. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 00:34, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
Please redact suggestion of defamation which is in itself defamation. I never worked out how to either archive or sandbox. I will try. so back to work
The following sentence in the Bachir Attar article ("Hamri had sold the copyright for the music to Brian Jones, and Bachir Attar had to negotiate with The Estate of Brian Jones and The Rolling Stones for the loan of their ancient music for the issue.") seems to be out of place. Either it should be part of a longer discussion of the dispute over the disk reissue, or it should not be there at all, since it comes without context. Jonur (talk) 15:54, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks Jonur. I really appreciate your help. I'll make sure to review all articles after finishing this round in fact. I am waiting for the parties to prepare a set of references asap so we can move forward. However, as this case is more a typical case between the main two editors I'd really appreciate if we can let them fix the articles depending on their concerns. I hope you understand the fact that the less intervenant the better for the articles to be fixed. Thanks again. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 00:44, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
- sorry fayssal I was busy .
Would it be best to just post lists of refs without comment to speed all this up?
That would be ok with stuff available online, perhaps some short quotes of other material and scans sent to you and maybe jonur as he/she seems interested? ? . If you could make a short list of what might be neded , I have posted lots of surces, if key issues could be confirmed everything should just flow from that. This page is nearly 20,000 words ie it is a quarter of a phD thesis. Is my suggestion wise? Catapla (talk) 18:21, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Re point 2 of Catalpa's concerns in fact there are sources that show that both names were used for MMOjoujouka in the 60s.
Re point 10 likewise. what is needed to further prove this? Catapla (talk) 18:24, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
- I'll prefer to review the references at your sandbox. This page is so huge and the references will only clutter it to no end. Just for convenience. I'll then take the appropriate refs and put them here myself. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 18:53, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
That sounds wise. Ok I have left some refs and comments there and will continue there and only make short comments here re your work or direct suggestions. If you want to move anything to my sandbox that that should not be here or just to clear clutter please feel free to do so. Catapla (talk) 14:05, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Back to work 2
Note that problems seem to occurring again see here [18] and we should finish this process if you have the time, i have limited time but have some new sources that help distinctions. Catapla (talk) 19:11, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
February 2011
New ANI discussion following suspected evasion of topic ban. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 00:01, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
March 2011
New ANI discussion following suspected evasion of topic ban. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:35, 8 March 2011 (UTC)