Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Achaia Football Clubs Association

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep, even when the meatpuppet/SPA posts are ignored. --MCB 04:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Achaia Football Clubs Association

Delete: Since it is an amature league of a district, lower than greek fourth division, I think this is unimportant article for everyone. KRBN 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Keep: No more, nor less notable than leagues in

Championnat de France Amateurs 2 (level 5 in France). --FocalPoint 13:49, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

There is a significant number of articles in Wikipedia on amateur, athletic unions operating on other than national level. Not one.--FocalPoint 05:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Rediculus to keep such a league of a village.--Moutalos 18:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:
Comité de Football des Îles du Nord of Saint Martin, 33.102 inhabitants, a Comité no less no more notable.--FocalPoint 08:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply
]
To administrators: Please note that Moutalos (talk · contribs) and Agelada (talk · contribs) cannot count as a voting user. If you can, you may compare his their server address with the server address of KRBN (talk · contribs)
Comment This is NOT a vote, administrators decide based on arguments --The Way 06:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Deleted words, in agreement with the comment of The Way--FocalPoint 08:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: If we include amateur leagues from the

European Champions? I think these leagues of both countries should be preserved. Georgeg 15:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

Keep:--

Tony esopi patra 17:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC).[reply
]

  • "The debate is not a vote; please make recommendations on the course of action to be taken, sustained by arguments" - please provide a reason, or the closing admin will discount your input.
The input provided by this simple signature indicates that apart from the population of
Achaia Football Clubs Association, there are also Wikipedia real users and contributors who care about this article.--FocalPoint 05:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

Keep: --Nakos2208 18:18, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The debate is not a vote; please make recommendations on the course of action to be taken, sustained by arguments" - please provide a reason, or the closing admin will discount your input.
The input provided by this simple signature indicates that apart from the population of
Achaia Football Clubs Association, there are also Wikipedia real users and contributors who care about this article.--FocalPoint 05:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

Keep: This article is in between wikipedia's perspectives --Kalogeropoulos 18:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Please quote
    Bryant 22:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply
    ]

Keep: for the reasons User:FocalPoint gives--Archidamus 18:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC) (I saw now it's not a vote, so I can participate)--Archidamus 16:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • One article being present on Wikipedia is not a precedent for another one to exist; only if it has run an AfD can it be used.
    Bryant 22:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply
    ]

Keep: This is very much so relevant.

Keep: Agree with FocalPoint. Not less notable than other existing articles about amateur football clubs or leagues. --Dada 19:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Please quote
    Bryant 22:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply
    ]
When improved and expanded, the article will contain information about the association and will be verifiable and neutral. Can you quote one key policy that is being violated? The only argument for it's deletion is notability and it is not always so trivial to decide what is important or not. Why should we consider the
Achaia Football Clubs Association is non notable, then IMHO you should seriously reconsider the status of the other articles I mentioned. --Dada 09:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Comment Amazing how so many users could find this before it was listed on the main page. T REXspeak 21:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: This is the kind of knowledge you can't find anywhere else. It's information that can be proved useful in many ways especially historically. Like it wastes server space or something???? --Alexignatiou 21:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please quote
    which Wikipedia policy
    indicates it is worthy of inclusion, rather than your own personal opinion on the article.
  • Delete Article is incoherent. It seems to be about an amateur league - seems unimportant in the context of Greek football.
    Catchpole 22:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Delete Article isn't even what it purports to be, as Dinosaur noted it's basically an incomplete list of chamions associated with the league. Not informative at all, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate place for information. --The Way 06:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC) Keep, but RewriteI've changed my mind regarding this. The article is no less relevant than other football clubs that have articles and we always must work to fight systemic bias, so it should stay. However, the format it is currently in is terrible; its still just a list of champions with almost no prose. The lists need to be cut down or removed and the article needs to be modeled after other football club articles; it needs to consist mostly in prose. --The Way 09:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Is it just me, or is there something up with some of the people voting for keep? None are applying the normal format (with an asterik) and many offer no arguments... --The Way 06:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment They all seem to be from the Greek Wikipedia. T REXspeak 09:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Note on comment: Many = 2 . Is it just me, or is there something up with NewMathematics as taught by The Way?--FocalPoint 08:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per
    Bryant 10:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Comment: It is interesting to go to see User talk:Georgeg because really it is suprizing for those who don't know why there are so many Greeks.

--KRBN 17:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:Take a look at:

--KRBN 17:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC

Well this is really funny coming from you who wrote "you could help and bring more people to vote DELETE" in User_talk:The_Way? --Dada 10:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: If i am not mistaken, anyone with 50+ edits has the right to vote, so comments on the ethnicity of the people who vote are really irrelevant. Besides, it is only natural for Greeks to vote, since they know better what the article is about. The only reason for deletion is it's notability (certainly the content needs serious improvement too but this is not our issue here), however the basic argument against it is that there already exist similar articles about amateur or very low-level clubs/leagues. Please let people decide without commenting on or attacking the voters and if any vote is illegal then it simply won't be counted. --Dada 14:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete It is so unimportant article. It has to do with a minor amature league of a district, even lower than Greek Fourth Division, where teams play in very bad stadium, and the teams are so weak. It does really not affect Greek football and I doubt even if that could be in a Greek encyclopedia (except wikipedia). So unimportant that doesn't cause the interest even of Greek fans and media. Nobody in the world will care about such an article. If such an article is accepted, I wonder what is not in wikipedia.

Also as we saw, so unimportant it is that ONLY GREEKS SUPPORT IT. The fact that is not accepted by the rest of the world, speaks everything. If Greeks want it so much, why they don't write it for their own in Greek wikipedia and want it here where nobody wants it, except them? Their opinion I think is too subjective. One proof of that that some of them called everyone who is Greek to save the article. One thing that proves the aim of them is that they called me anti-Greek because I proposed it for deletion. Their goal is pariotic rather than helping contribution in wikipedia.

  • Comment:For User:Archidamus As for the claim that Greeks know better the article, I know better my self. Does that mean that I have to write my personal biograph in wikipedia? KRBN 10:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: This is totally different. It is not a case of self promotion and no one will gain anything if the article stays. It is about an association of football clubs, member of the Hellenic Football Federation and their amateur league. --Dada 10:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Whoa now, this is beginning to take on a somewhat racist tone. Wikipedia is actively working to promote systemic bias which means we should include things important to different countries, not only things important to the US and UK. KRBN, please tone down this inappropriate rhetoric. The problem with the article is NOT that it's Greek, rather its that it's merely a list and the title misrepresents whats located within. If the article was changed to fit the format of the British football clubs, for example, I'd support keeping it. --The Way 07:40, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


  • Keep: (with some modifications, to keep everyone happy!)
  1. if amateur leagues are to have a presence at all on Wikipedia this league has a record of representing Greece in the
    UEFA_Regions_Cup (this is UEFA's top amateur competition and only one team composed of players from one amateur domestic league can qualify - Achaia won the Greek spot by eliminating the collective team of other amateur Greek leagues) in 2005. ([1]). There are leagues in the English football league system that have not achieved this but have been accepted. There has been a similar discussion on English low level teams here: [[2]
    ]
  2. the league itself has been around for nearly 80 years, and teams such as
    A1 Ethniki
    , contributing players to the national team (hence the league has an element of historical significance too)
However, I think individual teams within this league should not necessarily have their own wiki entry (ie just for having participated in the league itself), unless of course they have demonstrated other notability criteria (like
Panachaiki
). So I propose that the red links should be deleted.
I also agree with User:The Way’s comment in that the format could be changed to resemble that of the English football league system. Finally it would be nice if the article contained more information, but judging by the interest this discussion has generated, that should hopefully come pretty soon! StephP 12:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To my surprise, this process is working. I have already put in the information that

Panachaiki's history (an FC of national level Greek football). And...yes...the article was really ugly, but this was a question of notability as pointed out by several wikipedians who participated in this discussion, not a beauty contest.--FocalPoint 20:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

On a personal note, I owe an honest thank you to the original author of the article,

Tony esopi patra as well as KRBN: Despite the latter's poor arguments, bad manners, questionable practices and serious misunderstanding of wikipedia's actual and desired content, during this discussion I have learned better the deletion process, the term meatpuppet, that trawling for votes/opinions can be seen as spam or vandalism and I have identified the process for reporting editing abuse (Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets). I might even try it too.--FocalPoint 20:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

  • Keep: I cannot understand why it should be so complicated. Some people can find information in this article. This information is difficult to be found anywhere else on the internet and will definitely be useful to some (not only for people living in Greece). --CeeKay 17:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: League has been around for over 80 years, has had some notable teams playing it and represents a fairly large amount of players and teams. Furthermore, it probably has a fairly large amount of fans who watch this league, even if just a couple of hundred fans from each team watch these matches it all adds up. Englishrose 18:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, Useful information
    Bristol Downs Football League. Kingjamie 21:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply
    ]

— Possible

single purpose account: Billy i.e.The Billster (talk • contribs
) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
  • Keep: I'm from Greece and believe that Achaia Football Clubs Association article must be kept as many clubs participating in the Association are important --Noumenorian 21:01, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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