Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barry Schwartz (technologist) (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. There are obvious

Barry Schwartz (technologist)

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Barry Schwartz (technologist) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Doesn't look to be passing

• Delete No indication of wp:notability. Based on text of article, ability to establish such appears unlikely. North8000 (talk) 13:53, 13 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Do the research. The page was originally created by

WP:POV

• Comment Yes, this goes way back. Anyway, Here are some sources for notability, if you need it... Interviewed by Brian Williams on Prime Time NBC, see here. Article about myself in Journal News, see here. I've been quoted hundreds of times by places like WSJ, NY Times, Forbes, and so many more. Here are some links to those, but I stopped keeping track. I cover SEO and search news, I am a publisher. I am one of the most cited journalists in the search space. I've spoken around the world, including Search Marketing Expo, PubCon, La Red Innova and so on. I also run conferences, here is an article for a very large Israel paper on a conference I ran there, there are others but they are in Hebrew. But you guys can do your independent research. I am pretty sure you don't want to hear from me on this. But wanted to just add some of these links. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rustybrick (talk • contribs) 22:41, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• It looks like this is another attempt to increase traffic to your website. All but one source you provided are to your OWN website, which is setup to sell yourself, no surprise. Citation should be as close to the source as possible and this looks like an attempt by the subject to protect their own presence on wiki. Verification on MSN failed. The video was about space exploration. It did not mention you. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 01:43, 16 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Aren't the links nofollowed. I do not care about the links. Maybe NBC moved the video, here is a copy of it on YouTube. And here is a citation in a book, one of many. Should I stop providing sources and let others? What is protocol? Rustybrick (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:19, 16 September 2011 (UTC).[reply]
• More books, Art of SEO, Killer Facebook Ads, Google AdWords, etc. Leading paper in Spain, over here. Rustybrick (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:35, 16 September 2011 (UTC).[reply]

I do not believe getting cited in eachother's book counts, which is apparently happening commonly in the world of "SEO specialists". You could publish a book and briefly mention the author that mentioned you as a gratitude and it still doesn't establish your notability. The links are no follow, but it still brings visits, just not tracked back to wikipedia.Cantaloupe2 (talk) 08:37, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• It just seems like you dislike me for some reason. Did you spend any time at all looking to see my contributions to the search industry, not just "SEO" but to Google, Yahoo, Bing, etc. This seems more personal to me than anything else, maybe I am just taking this the wrong way. But there are very few people in the search industry, specifically journalists, that have given as much time, content and information to the industry. Please just spend time researching my background, contributions, mentions and so on, instead of assuming this is about getting traffic, because I can prove it is not about the traffic. (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:36, 18 September 2011 (UTC).[reply]

• I'm looking for same level of coverage as well known to the public figures who usually have coverage about them and justifiably so. In prior deletions, consensus was that snippets of mentions is not a "significant coverage". The media approaches those who work in the field all the time. If they're doing issues on earthquake, they may ask a professor at a nearby school for a comment and may get mentioned as "Dr. Jane Doe of department of geology at State University said" but that is a trivial mention. As per
  WP:BASIC coverage should not be trivial. If we didn't have these limitations, wiki will become flooded with people wanting their own stand alone article. You may be a snippet in another article, but the amount and reliability of information I can locate on you does not warrant stand alone article on you. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 19:49, 18 September 2011 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Internet-related deletion discussions. — frankie (talk) 20:14, 14 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. — frankie (talk) 20:14, 14 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Technology-related deletion discussions. — frankie (talk) 20:14, 14 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak Delete Does not seem to clearly meet the general notability guideline. There are sources, but most of them don't really seem to be about the subject directly and substantially. Steven Walling • talk 22:27, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• followup that is what I was seeing. When I went through the sources he linked as well as those I verified independently, there was substantial coverage of the subject. Bloggers, SEO consultants and such emphasize on their presence on websites, but as you probably seen their presence is particularly polished on primary source blogs.

• Keep Being routinely interviewed as the expert on something by reliable sources can amount to notability as a recognized expert or authority. Obviously we are rather skeptical about this in borderline cases, but I don't think this is borderline. I accept also that we should be especially skeptical about articles about themselves by experts in internet marketing, but I think he passes none the less. The decisive factor for me is the editorship of Search engine watch. DGG ( talk ) 01:40, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • reply and that page is a publication designed specifically for search engine marketers. That publication has got a page on how to spam on Wikipedia by How Small Businesses Can Get a Link from WikipediaYou get a general idea of the market it supports and it makes the
    WP:POV? Even on technology issues, I don't see these small publishers to be on the same level as Reuters, TechCrunch, wiredCantaloupe2 (talk) 09:48, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    • ClickZ didn't return a significant presence on Hoovers search. On ClickZ page, it looks like it is owned by the same company as Search engine watch, so it looks like the two are not two unique independent sources. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 10:15, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have not been with Search Engine Watch for years and even so, what does that article have to do with my writings. I cover search news, not how to spam, and do black hat SEO. I cover news on search, nothing to do with abuse. (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:28, 19 September 2011 (UTC).[reply]

• Keep As someone who works in the filed of Internet marketing, I've gotten to know and appreciate Barry Schwartz's presence at conferences where he covers them for Search Engine Watch. Over 19,000 people subscribe to his Twitter feed where publishes daily insights into the happenings within the industry. I know that Barry has been interviewed for his opinions & insight on the search industry by leading national US based TV networks. I will do my best to hunt down links to these interviews. Unfortunately, like many TV news interviews, they're not retained on broadcasters site even if they were ever posted there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kology (talk • contribs) 12:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC) [reply]

This is nuts! It's Barry Schwartz for crying out loud. There are people on wikipedia who are in much smaller niche's and industries than that of search engines and the internet. Anyone in internet marketing, and especially SEO knows exactly who Barry Schwartz is, he's basically a celebrity. On that, how come there's no wiki pages for Rand Fishkin and Dave Naylor?

Not only is Wikipedia missing an entire niche/industry worth of notable figures, but they're thinking of deleting what little it has?!

SteveOllington (talk) 19:04, 18 September 2011 (UTC)— SteveOllington (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Preceding comment was copied from the talk page — frankie (talk) 13:09, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. It seems that Cantaloup2 wants to delete all of Wikipedia's content about SEO. Cantaloup2 as you can see above makes outrageous, biased and false statements, speaking from ignorance. Already Aaron Wall and Brett Tabke were deleted, which were not good decisions because Aaron is also an Internet celebrity and operator of SEObook, and extremely popular website, and Brett Tabke operates PubCon, and possibly the largest webmaster conference. Rand Fishkin used to exist but Rand himself asked for it to be deleted. We should have bios for all the most famous webmasters. Jehochman ^Talk 15:26, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Jill Whalen and Bruce Clay were also deleted. Bad stuff. We should probably bring all these articles to deletion review for a more thorough discussion. Jehochman ^Talk 17:04, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Much as I disagree with Barry's politics, he is certainly a notable individual. Not an Aaron Wall, but still notable enough to warrant an entry (phnarr!). In any other field Barry's level of notoriety would not be an issue, the same should be true of those who work in digital. No reason to delete and frankly this appears to be overzealous, self-promoting, slightly ridiculous editing. • — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lord Manley (talk • contribs) 16:08, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete He has made some appearances in the media, but I still don't see the significant coverage in reliable, third-party sources that we should have to write an article. Furthermore, I don't see anything exceptionally special about him to warrant an IAR pass from the guidelines. If we have an article on searchengineland he could be mentioned there, but I'm not seeing the need for a full-blown biography on him. ThemFromSpace 19:35, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment This AfD is being
  canvassed offwiki: [1] [2] ThemFromSpace 19:39, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  Comment Sorry, didn't realize that was a no-no. User:Rustybrick. —Preceding undated comment added 23:30, 19 September 2011 (UTC).[reply]

It does make it pretty visible that you're trying to get your SEO buddies who identify themselves as expert to create an undue influence, which could potentially clash with

WP:POV. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 03:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

• FWIW, my (non-Wikipedian) friend Jim Hedger (viz. some of his work, for what it's worth) who is both a journalist who has covered SEO and a pretty strong SEO expert himself, assures me that he'd count Barry Schwartz as one of the notable figures in the field. So, in this area where I'm not expert myself, I lean toward keep. - Jmabel | Talk 23:57, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

followup ok? I've NEVER heard of isedb.com. Is this a website most people skilled in the arts of internet publishing would know? How is this much different from asking a friend who is an editor of a city community college campus paper and saying he assures you that so and so student is "well known" in the community? What is your ground for the statement Jim Hedger is an expert? Cantaloupe2 (talk) 03:11, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not saying Jim is necessarily an expert at the level of meriting an article himself (he may be close, but I wouldn't pass judgment on this on a colleague). I'm a solid computer professional myself: MS in Computer Science, have run some pretty large dev groups, etc. Jim, whom I've known for over 20 years, is one of the two people in my acquaintance I consider most expert on SEO. If he assures me (as he does of Schwartz) that someone is one of the leading figures in the SEO field, I tend to presume he knows what he's talking about.

I was not saying at all that isedb.com was notable, or even citeable. I provided the link as a reasonable sample of Jim's recent writing on SEO, so that people who don't know him could tell that I'm not just getting my opinion from a random acquaintance, but from someone who actually knows the field. SEO is a field where I do not have independent expertise.

Canteloupe2: a lot of your complaint seems to be "I don't know about this guy so he's not notable." Is this a field you know well enough that you would expect to know the notable names in the field? - Jmabel | Talk 15:17, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Broader remark: It seems to me that we need a clear set of criteria on what constitutes notability in this particular area. Right now we have only half a dozen people in Category:Search engine optimization consultants, including Schwartz, which suggests to me that the bar is being set awfully high. - Jmabel | Talk 00:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

reply How well known is the field in the interest of the general public? There are highly specialized attorneys, such as those with expertise in birth injury who maybe well known in the highly specialized field of law concerning medical malpractice, or among insurance companies. There are also notable professors well known within the HIGHLY specific field. What convincing argument do you editors have to offer that justifies the inclusion of "SEO experts" but not biography page for every person that may as well be considered "well known within the specialty field"? Ask an editor in charge of journals for that very specific field and he/she will likely say "that person is an expert and well known in the field of(( whatever )) ". Cantaloupe2 (talk) 02:57, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Very. If you own a business website, you pay attention to this stuff and have heard of these famous names. Just because you've never heard of it doesn't mean other people are unfamiliar with the topic. Wikipedia is meant include all verifiable knowledge, not just: pop culture, Simpsons episodes, every crap musician who ever had a recording contract, and a complete catalog of Pokemon characters. Jehochman ^Talk 04:01, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Very well known to the general public according to what sources? You happen to be involved in related business, I am not. Knowledge among people in your specialty does not mean general knowledge(or lack of) among the general public. Wikipedia guidelines specifically say it is not for including every verifiable being on the face of earth. Notability is to established through reliable references, not personal experience. Wikipedia doesn't extend inclusion to every verifiable local bands. It doesn't include every person who's presence and occupation can be verified. Many of SEO " " experts " " don't pass the Wikipedia inclusion criteria for having stand alone articles about them. The owner of a local sub shop doesn't usually meet notability criteria and getting other people to blog/tweet/mention/talk over a plethora of different websites do not make it so. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 06:34, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are you arguing that search engine optimization isn't a noable topic? You are being very tedious and obtuse. Please go do something productive. You are commenting excessively here, drowning out the opinions of other editors. Jehochman ^Talk 11:21, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You make excessive personal attacks by making every accusation you can think of for edits you don't like. Your accusation of "slander" on a tag you disagree with for one and rebelling about other articles for another. I encourage others to post their opinion. Don't tell me what to do. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 12:18, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please see

WP:POINT. You are systematically attempting to delete every article about famous SEO practitioners, regardless of their notability. Whatever personal issue you have, please don't bring it into Wikipedia. Jehochman ^Talk 12:26, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

Worrrd (talk) 12:16, 20 September 2011 (UTC)— Worrrd (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Hello and welcome. I see that this is your very first contribution here. I am not sure who you're addressing by "you". Wikipedia is not a traditional publication that the publisher's editor makes inclusion/exclusion decision. Please refer to

WP:N/N, noticeboard for notability. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 12:47, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

Hope this helps. Stepman77 (talk) 16:34, 21 September 2011 (UTC)stepman77[reply]

reply I think you're right on the ball with what you presented in "strike 3". If every verifiable person with secondary source quotation or mention was to be allowed a stand alone article, the integrity of Wikipedia would be compromised. Now that I think about it, some kid who's been listed in the local paper would be equally undeserving/deserving of his own article. I suspect

WP:meat Cantaloupe2 (talk) 20:47, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

1) Barry is not some kids who's been listed in the local paper. Please stop making insulting comparisons. 2) You have presented no evidence of meat puppetry whatsoever. Either show the evidence or strike your false and defamatory statement against a living person or else I will ask an uninvolved administrator to block your account to prevent further inappropriate posts. Jehochman ^Talk 22:43, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

1.) No, but I feel that the they can be compared in my opinion. Disagreement with comparison does not equate insulting. 2.) See my words. "I suspect" I never stated that "it has been established" or "is". Opinion or suspicion is not defamation. It is an expression of opinion. When I left you a COI tag, you got all emotional and said it was harassment. Yet, you leave a warning on my page when you disagree with something. I feel influenced by your position of authority. I think that you're trying to suppress my opinions by telling me to suppress or you'll file a complaint. I do not feel that I am in violation of policy by voicing my opinion. An uninvolved administrator is welcome to leave me a message if their interpretation of rules differ. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 05:05, 22 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]