Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carpenters Bridge

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep and rename to

21™ 02:07, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
]

Carpenters Bridge

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Fails to meet

WP:N requirements. Only one print source, and search of the internet yields no other reliable sources. Rjp422 (talk) 20:31, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
]

Comment Needs work to improve and expand, but the structure is listed in http://delaware.hometownlocator.com/maps/feature-map,ftc,2,fid,213761,n,carpenters%20bridge.cfm, http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnispublic/f?p=gnispq:3:791814287212855::NO::P3_FID:213761, http://uglybridges.com/1077384, and http://www.lat-long.com/Latitude-Longitude-213761-Delaware-Carpenters_Bridge.html. Celtechm (talk) 21:51, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Delaware-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:33, 2 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:33, 2 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I just looked at the page and new secondary internet references has been added and links making it no longer an orphan. I find it interesting that a bridge, has a road named after it and two Zip code designated communities (on either side of the bridge) has changed from not notable to being notable. The article may need to be renamed 1) because there is two other Carpenter Bridge articles on Wikipedia and adding the state may help. A disabig page may need to be done. 2) I think most of the confusion is that the bridge is referred to as Carpenters Bridge susing an older name for it, while Kent County and the community refer to it as Carpenter Bridge. No doubt the pre-1962 was named for someone. The article is a stub, but I can see it being expanded a bit more. Jrcrin001 (talk) 05:26, 4 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Internet search yields no reliable sources, just the typically unreliable GNIS and Hometown Locator type sites that have been designated as not being enough to establish notability in the past. The argument that it is a ZIP code designated place seems at best disingenuous as the government recognizes no such designation, only census designated places. Thousands of roads, trailer parks, and subdivisions are designated by postal areas in order to route mail more directly and they are certainly not worthy of having an article about each and every one as has been shown in past AFD's. Having lived in lower Delaware my entire life, there are absolutely not any communities named after Carpenters Bridge, or whose naming was "influenced" by Carpenters Bridge. There's Autumn Glen, Woods Edge, Tuscany Estates... Nothing to do with Carpenter or Bridge. Superman7515 (talk) 16:22, 4 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - See: Carpenters Bridge Crossing Homeowners Asssociation and Carpenter Bridge Properties LLC through Lessard Builders who began the housing developement near
    Carpenters Bridge in 2006. See also: Land designated as Carpenters Bridge on pages 8 & 9 in the lower left of image. Jrcrin001 (talk) 08:02, 6 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Good find on the new material. My issue, still, is that the bridge itself does not carry notability per
WP:N. The sources you've just provided are all about a housing subdivision named after the bridge in its proximity. If anything, it seems like there's more sources for a page about the housing subdivision than the bridge itself. Rjp422 (talk) 15:07, 6 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
]
The comment was to refute the "absolutely not" in the statement prior. If we take the bridge by itself, it is marginal. I still think Keep But ...then add the road named after it and the HOA/community/LLC with the bridge then the area of Carpenter Bridge is more interesting and notable. Question - If the article was rewritten focusing on the collection of CB, would this be more acceptable to others here? Jrcrin001 (talk) 21:26, 6 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification! By collection, do you mean the residential area such as the sources you provided? I'm not an expert on Delaware, but if it proves that the area around the bridge is considered to be the "Carpenters Bridge" neighborhood, then I agree and I think that would be a better approach.Rjp422 (talk) 17:31, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the homeowners association was started as required by law prior to the development being started, however, the development itself was never built because of the housing crash. No such development exists and no community in the area is named after Carpenters Bridge. The closest developments, on the north and south sides of the crossing, are Riverview Estates (north) and Coursey's Point (south). Superman7515 (talk) 20:52, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Superman is right regarding construction. Compare the maps on pages 8 & 9 at the following link to the temporary Google maps posted below. See referred to link here: http://stateplanning.delaware.gov/plus/projects/2009/2009-10-02.pdf
You can see that the Delware planning has progressed to the point of adding roads and plots. See: http://carpentercousins.com/temp/CarpenterBridgeCrossingMap.jpg
Yet, based on the satlilite map of the same area, construction has not started for the Carpenter Bridge community/Crossing/HOA/LLC. But there appears new construction nearby. And planning indicates future building when the economy improves. See: http://carpentercousins.com/temp/CarpenterBridgeCrossingSat.jpg
So
Carpenters Bridge should really be an article about' the bridge, the road named after it (Road 35), Carpenter Bridge, LLC, and the Carpenter Bridge Crossing HOA. How many bridges have a road and construction company name and a planned and approved, but pending community named for it? I think the combination is rather unique, notable and worth keeping. Maybe rename it Carpenters Bridge area, Delaware? Jrcrin001 (talk) 00:39, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
]
The construction company isn't named after it, it's just the LLC that will be handling the subdivision until such time as the HOA can take over. That's not uncommon and is in fact required by law in Delaware. Same case for the HOA, this would be opening a whole can of worms where suddenly dozens of trailer parks, random roads with nothing built but a dream for the future that may never come true, etc are suddenly deemed worthy of an article when nothing may never be built there. They applied for the permits 6 years ago (have to double check the dates) and haven't built anything yet, after 10 years the county and state consider it scrapped and they can't build without going through the whole process again, so it's possible it will not happen in this economy. Superman7515 (talk) 16:30, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Small bridge over a small river. Nothing special about it. Dough4872 00:29, 6 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete->Keep- This article deserves to be kept given the new direction of the subject and the organization of the info on the page.
Did you forget that you nominated the article for deletion above?  Unscintillating (talk) 23:23, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, I am aware that I nominated. I wasn't sure my vote was logged by nominating, and circumstances had changed during the discussion but I still felt this way. Changing my vote now, regardless. Sorry for being a newbie, I hope you can forgive me. Rjp422 (talk) 01:45, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - This is a strange case. The topic appears to be a road bridge. Since there's some fairly diverse sourced content, but it doesn't appear to be particularly notable as a bridge, logically it might make sense to merge it into an article about the highway or the locality. First I investigated merging it into the article about the numbered connector road (Road 35) that it's on. However, Road 35 doesn't even appear on the Wikipedia list of Delaware roads, much less have an article; Delaware state documents about the road generally seem to call it Carpenter's Bridge Road (or some variant spelling of that). There's also no place clearly associated with the bridge. Indeed, the name "Carpenters Bridge" shows up in contemporary documents and as far back as 1890 (the NYTimes news piece cited in the article) as a place name -- and there seems to be no other place name for the local area near the bridge, but GNIS recognizes it only as the name of the bridge. Given that "Carpenters Bridge" is documented to exist as a bridge, a place name, and the namesake of the road that crosses it, and there seems to be no broader article to which the content could reasonably be merged, I conclude that the topic merits an article of its own. --Orlady (talk) 20:08, 8 August 2012 (UTC) I find it particularly noteworthy that this is the place name associated with an 1890 murder and a recent plan for a solar energy development. --Orlady (talk) 22:02, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Bushranger is right, it is a county road, Road 35 - that is named Carpenter Bridge Road. Google map shows hundreds of street addresses with "Carpenter Bridge Road" and by using the street view, one can see the street signs marked "Carpenter Bridge Road." Jrcrin001 (talk) 00:39, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Non-notable bridge, non-notable road.
    verifiable as a populated place name - if it can be, then moving the article to that name and making it about the place might work, but if it cannot be (and I can't verify it as being anything other than "there's a bridge here so we call it that" through Google - 0 gNews hits, 0 gBooks hits for "Carpenters Bridge, Delaware"), deletion is warranted. Note that if kept, a page move will be needed for disambiguation as there are quite a few other Carpenters Bridges. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:04, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Carpenter Bridge disambig page exists. What do you think of Carpenters Bridge area, Delaware? Jrcrin001 (talk) 00:39, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There's also Carpenters Bridges in Tennessee, Louisiana, and Ljubljana. As for a potential rename/rescope, though, perhaps this might be of interest? - The Bushranger One ping only 01:32, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If kept, the article definitely should be renamed to include "Delaware" as a disambiguation term (e.g.,
WP:primary topic for "Carpenters Bridge". --Orlady (talk) 15:07, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
]
Relisted
to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 10:45, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - based on the above comments and an effort to rescue the article, I rewrote it and sectioned it as appropiate. How is this re-write? PS I am not the original author.
The article still needs to be renamed. I am not sure of the procedure while pending the discussion above. So I leave renaming to a more expirenced editor. I like Orladys naming suggestion of Carpenters Bridge (Delaware).
And as a minor item, I corrected my goof above referring New Jersey instead of Delaware. Jrcrin001 (talk) 18:33, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for all the leg-work in saving this article and getting it up to shape! You rock.Rjp422 (talk) 01:45, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Superman, on the article page, asked for a citation in the lead regarding locations near the bridge that are referred to or part of Carpenters Bridge. I am answering here, because this discussion is still open. I rewote the line to be more clear. "Locations near the bridge are sometimes referred to as being part of or using the name Carpenters Bridge. This is outlined in the sections below." I did not remove the citation tag. But I think it is now clear that the article and citations indicate directly or indirectly that the area has an association or identify referring to Carpenters Bridge. Jrcrin001 (talk) 00:21, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It still needs to be cited though, because there is no location in the area that locals ever refer to as being part of "Carpenters Bridge," you either say it is in Frederica, Felton, or Canterbury. At worst you'd say near Killen's Pond, which is a state park and much more widely known than this non-descript bridge. There is no association of the area with the bridge, the only "community" near-by that was planned to use the name in it was never built and is less than 4 years away from being permanently scrapped. Feel free to contact Lessard Builders, http://lessardbuilders.com/, they currently have no plans to begin construction on that site. The only site they are building on Carpenters Bridge Road is named Dickinson Creek, http://www.lessardbuilders.com/html/community.php?id=2. Internet searches don't turn up any reliable sites identifying Carpenters Bridge as a community, nor are there any saying that an area of Delaware is commonly referred to as "Carpenters Bridge" and nothing "outlined below" meets the citation required of the sentence as written.Superman7515 (talk) 03:43, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this page.
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