Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hugo Austin

• Keep all this is not the way to settle disputes. Nor am I going to try to settle it by dealing with the question myself here. But even if there were agreement that the GNG is applicable to fictional articles 1 the GNG and WP:N itself are guidelines, and therefore have exceptions. So it would be necessary to show that these should not be exceptions. 2 Violation of BEFORE, because the nom has almost certainly not made a comprehensive search for each article. 3 if some are too large and some too small, there is an obvious remedy--edit every one of them. That way , we actually build the encyclopedia 4 absurdity., because i could equally well make a nomination for every article on every athlete, on the basis that there is no full agreement on what the guidelines are, and I propose =removing them all as the way to settle the question. 5 and most damning, violation of DELETION POLICY, because deletion is the last resort and at the very least, every one of them could be redirected--and thus there is an alternative to deletion.DGG (talk) 17:12, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm unsure what "dispute" you are suggesting was being settled by this AfD?
    WP:V - all actual policies. In fact, several of the articles nominated are a violation of CSD G5 as they had been individually deleted at AfD then recreated later. And finally, wikilawyering around the "deletion policy" (which changes every second week) is not a good basis for any argument in here. If you wish to solve the problem, then actually get in there and help to solve it. If you simply wish to preach from the sidelines, then maybe let those actually stuck with managing the problem decide what to do with it. I notice a fair bit of that sort of thing on Wikipedia. Orderinchaos 17:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]

So we are to give up editing when it becomes difficult? The solution of merging was rejected because in won;t fit into the sparse tabular format of the present list articles, but that's no argument against a proper merge to good substantial sections of a combination article. As for the dispute being short-circuited, it's at NOT and FICT and multiple other places, and the nominator admits he is bringing it here because there is no consensus at any of those discussion that articles such as these are to be deleted. DGG (talk) 22:04, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"So we are to give up editing when it becomes difficult?" Checking your edit history, I see you have not edited these articles or helped at all in trying to control the raft of unacceptable edits to them. When those who promote a rabidly inclusionist ideology actually lift a finger to help fight the endless array of mindless reverting drones inserting cruft that the few admins and editors that actually watch these corners of the encyclopaedia struggle to keep out, I shall listen to their views with interest. As it stands, I see no reason why any of these articles should survive - I actually think they'd be far better off at a wikia where Wikipedia's rules don't apply at all, so they can write whatever they like (which it seems they do anyway). Orderinchaos 23:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note It should be noted by the closing admin that DGG has emailed and talkpaged abuse to admins and editors who have supported this proposal. (For some reason I seem to have been spared.) I was rather surprised to find this user is a fellow admin when I checked listusers - this is behaviour I wouldn't even accept from a newbie. I think DGG needs to come clean on what other off wiki activism or canvassing he has engaged in with respect to this AfD. Orderinchaos 23:57, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Whoa up there, Orderinchaos! DGG is one of our soundest and most knowledgeable inclusionist editors/admins! That accusation is

gratuitous and uncalled-for, and I formally request that you withdraw it! --Orange Mike | Talk 21:46, 3 July 2009 (UTC) (notorious deletionist)[reply

]

"DGG is one of our soundest and most knowledgeable inclusionist editors/admins" While Orderinchaos could have been a little more diplomatic in his phrasing, he speaks from the frustration of trying to do the right thing while getting no support or assistance and only criticism from a group of users who want articles which are in no way compliant with content policies kept and yet show no sign whatsoever of being willing to do the huge amount of work necessary to fix this mess and then maintain it. He also happens to speak the

truth. DGG has contacted people regarding this AFD; I was one who received a most unwelcome email from him and it appeared that he was so furious that I would support "what will turn out to be the most disruptive nomination in wp history" that he fired his email off mid-sentence. If he is going to make efforts to influence AFDs by chastising people for supporting AFDs and not voting as he wants, he could at least have the stones to do so in a transparent manner on site. I have never received an email from DGG previously and have never even exchanged messages onsite so while he didn't explicitly ask me to change my position it was certainly there by implication and I find his behaviour mid-AFD inappropriate and agree with the essence of Orderinchaos's comments though I do agree that his phrasing wasn't the best. Sarah 03:05, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

On principle I refuse to withdraw a true statement. Sorry. Orderinchaos 03:40, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

DGG, I am not involved in any dispute and am not aware of any. This nomination is certainly not a way to resolve any dispute that I have no knowledge of. What is the dispute that you refer to? Please explain how you know whether or not I have tried to find reliable sources showing notability in the real world for each character listed here? You don't. You can't. Assume good faith. I did search on

WP:RS

. As Orderinchaos says, uninvolved, neutral editors and admins have been attempting for over a year to control these articles and try to edit them in a positive way. It's sometimes easier to start with a fresh slate, a blank page, than to work with what we have, and this is one of those times. The "solution" of merging was not rejected solely because of the tabular format of the list pages, but because merging what we have into another page just creates a list of crap. Right now it's not "difficult", it's impossible. I'm not opposed to a list of characters, but putting the crap from 50, 100 (I haven't actually counted) articles into one page doesn't get rid of the problem.

Comment - I think that if they do get deleted we should start to work on a wikiproject for Home and Away. From a admin suggestion it would make sense to make the project to focus on Neighbours also. This way we can all work together to produce good articles that do have a place on Wikipedia. I do stress though that I do not support keeping articles such as Hugo Austin, Xavier Austin, Ruby Buckton. .. because they are not notable. If you are a fan and interested in saving some of the articles now would be a good time to indicate your interest in such a project so something good can come of it. To be honest I'm wondering why I did say keep because most of the articles are poor and before the edits were just typical plot summaries with nothing that would interest a reader of wikipedia if they came across it randomly. As you do sometimes.Raintheone (talk) 01:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying you have changed your mind from keep? Matthewedwards :  Chat 

• Comment -- I too find it extremely disturbing that the nominator chose not to inform the article creators as the deletion policies recommend. If our nominator has an explanation as to why they chose to ignore the deletion policies' recommendations I hope they will share that. When I find an article I started has been deleted -- and the nominator chose not to inform me, I am pretty mad. In the five years I have been contributing to the wikipedia I have seen, time and again, promising new contributors, who end up going rogue, and being banned, and I think the watershed event is a more experienced contributor's lapse from
  WP:BITE. Geo Swan (talk) 03:56, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • There are dozens of creators, recreators, re-re-creators (as several of these articles are violations of CSD G5) and it is up to those who add content to justify it. We are not talking about "promising new contributors" here - I am not sure that you have actually read the articles in question. Orderinchaos 04:56, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've spent a little bit of time looking at some of them since the post above. Our nominator has made a number of claims about these articles, including that they were all short. I found that this was not true, the half dozen I've checked, so far, included one really long article. This further confirms my concern over the nominations of such really huge lists. What I have noticed in the past, and what I am afraid I am finding in this nomination, is that nominators of these long lists lapse from the due diligence I think is reasonable to expect from them. If you are going to nominate a bunch of article, all at once, and claim they are all the same, you should take a close enough look at them so that you can be sure you are telling the truth.
    • Your comment, "We are not talking about "promising new contributors" here" -- what do you mean? Are you suggesting that the contributors are vandals? Are you suggesting they are hopelessly poor spellers? Incapable of writing a coherent sentence? If they are not vandals, and they are doing their best to make contributions that comply with their limited and inexperienced understanding of the the wikipedia, then I have no hesitation calling them "promisting new contributors".
    • In my attempt to fully understand all our nominator's concern I also looked at
      List of Seinfeld minor characters, and the corresponding list for Coronation Street
      . Seinfeld has close to twenty separate articles devoted to characters from the show. Seinfeld was a weekly show. If Home and Away was a daily show, and it has run longer than Seinfeld, it makes sense to me that it would have a greater number of characters.
    • It is up to contributors to do their best to provide content that complies with policy, so its retention can be justified. But the policies do recommend telling the article creator, and citing the sheer number of people the nominator would have to notify in this particular case seems to me to be a very weak argument. No one forced our nominator to nominate all these articles at once. Geo Swan (talk) 05:24, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • You've actually misread what the nominator said. The nominator said: "nothing but either one sentence stubs [...] or extremely long and detailed plot summaries". Length does not correspond to quality - in fact these articles were pure and simple
        unverifiable claims and unencyclopaedic language and extremely poor spelling. Some of the information is actually copyvio from a range of forums which would be EL/RS violations if linked. If these were promising new contributors, they would actually contribute rather than simply dump. In my opinion they should be blocked if they persist. Orderinchaos 05:58, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply
        ]

(after ec)Geo, just to clarify something, Matthew didn't say they were all short. He said some were really short and others were extremely long: "are nothing but either one sentence stubs...or extremely long and detailed plot summaries -- or rather, recaps -- and character biographies that only a dedicated fan would be interested in." It is true that some are incredibly long "Storyline" pages filled with unverifiable detailed information about everything that ever happened to the character. The problem, IMO, is the issue of

Claudia Hammond (Home and Away). I've been accused of supporting a disruptive AFD nomination but I know nothing about any policy disputes and care even less. All I do know is this subject area is a mess that makes Wikipedia look ridiculous and it needs to be resolved one way or the other - either through deletion or through the people wanting these kept coming and helping to clean up the unverifiable original research. Sarah 06:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

• (2xEC with Sarah and MichaelQ) I don't have to inform the creators. There is a tag on each article. It is listed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2009 July 1, and three deletion sorting pages. Many have been recreated a number of times after being deleted and salted, just at different page titles. I don't think my not informing them personally will turn them into rogue editors and vandals, but if it does so be it. Their true colours will have shown. They aren't "their" articles anyway. I've had articles I've created AfDed and I haven't been notified on my talk page a single time. It's no big deal. They're not mine to worry about. Other than that length, which I stressed are different, the articles are the same. A bunch of plotlines that do nothing to show the encyclopedicness of their subjects and the impact they've had on the world. There is no bias for me picking the H&A character articles. I just happened to be reading a couple and was dismayed by what they actually were. Length of show and number of characters does not equal character importance. Matthewedwards :  Chat  06:53, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• As an administrator, who should be setting an example of compliance to the wikipedia's civility policies, so less experienced contributors can see what is expected of them, I think you should have a very good reason for not leaving the courtesy heads-up on the talk page.
• I am surprised you would assert that placing a tag on each article is sufficient. I log in to the wikipedia just about every day. You probably do too. But newcomers usually don't. If they are knowledgeable to know they should place articles they work on on their watchlist, and that they should check it, every time they log in, they would still have to log in sometime before July 8 2009 to learn that the articles were nominated. If the next time they check their watchlist is a couple of weeks later there is no record for them to review. Several contributors here have suggested that the people contributing these articles are doing so in bad faith. And one of the justifications for this suggestion is that they re-contributed the articles after they had been deleted. Can you please explain how a newbie is going to learn what lapses of policy they made in the first version of an article if no one tells them to look at its deletion discussion? To suggest that the recreation of a deleted article is bad faith, in this circumstance, is extremely unfair. I left a heads-up for one of these contributors. I looked at their contribution history. I didn't see any glaring signs of vandalism. I didn't see anyone trying to warn them of concerns about their editing choices.
• With regard to "true colours" -- I am going to assume it simply never occurred to you that by deleting newbies articles, without telling them, you spread chaos and discord. That is what you are doing, whether you realize it or not, because those newbies have no opportunity to learn what they did wrong, and they have had the example set for them that the wikipedia's civility policies can be ignored, if you feel strongly enough about an issue.
• IMO complying with the policies should be the top priority no matter how strongly we feel about an issue. Nationalists, who edit war, and otherwise try to preserve the reputation of their nation, and are willing to disregard the wikipedia's policies to do so, represent a problem. I'd like to draw a parallel between their damaging actions, and yours. You also seem to think an issue -- ridding the wikipedia of "fancruft" -- was so important that you were willing to ignore the recommendations in wikipedia policies to do so.
• I don't know what ECx2 means. Geo Swan (talk) 13:24, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It means he edit conflicted twice, with me and you. Sarah 14:33, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep ALL. Oh, it would have been easier to say keep a, b, c, d, and delete, e, f, g, h, i, j, k.... but a huge mass nomination does not really allow editors the luxury of time to go through them one by one by one by one by one (etc) to make an individual determination for each to see which might be salvagable per
  WP:POTENTIAL, and which might not... or even if one or two actually do have the required sourcing and should not have been nominated. By placing all the eggs in one basket, the nom allows either a keep all or delete all. With such a practice, whether perceived as disruptive or not, even even one gets deleted that should not have been, all of Wikipedia is diminished. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 06:49, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]

"At least seven days" is plenty long enough to at least check each article for sourcing. They've been tagged for months and months. Truly none have potential and there is no information that can be preserved because it's all plot junk. If you haven't looked at them all, then how can you stand behind what you've just said? Matthewedwards :  Chat  06:59, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your mass nomination has just about assured that NO ONE could do a diligent source search for them ALL. Yes, 7 days would be ideal... for three, six or perhaps even nine articles, allowing interested editors the time to do a diligent and in depth search for each. But for 100 at the same time? Nope. Sorry. A diligent and in-depth search across numeous databases with various search parameters and including visits to libraries is most decidely limited by the sheer volume of articles here being mass nominated. Many editors have obligations outside these pages. If such limitation to

improvement was not the intention, such is certainly here the result. Which is why huge mass nominations are consider by many to be disruptive to the project. SPECIALLY when it could then lead to "rogue ediitors and vandalism". Why create wikidrama simply for the sake of more wikidrama? Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 18:49, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Visits to libraries? You're assuming libraries actually have stuff. I actually did already look and the *only* thing available in my state (I'm in Australia) is a 1989 book in a library in a town with 300 people out in the middle of nowhere. It was published by the producers only a year after the chart run, so may not even be usable as it's basically a primary source. We don't want to preserve content which is unreferenced, unverifiable and most likely false. Orderinchaos 20:30, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, visits to libraries. Wikipedia understands that not everything is online. Yes, I am assuming that many libraries (if not the one in a town of 300) have stuff.... books... as well as microfiche, videos, DVDs, archives, and more... and I am assuming that somone might wish to also use these and other available sources... magazines, books, digests, search engines other than google, and yes... even bookstores. That the only library you found in your state with an older book was in a town of 300 really does not allow an presumption that paints all libraries and sources as useless. Not all books ever written about every subject are in each and every library, and many might never be in a library. However, it IS a pretty safe assumption that a popular (to some) soap opera that has been running for 21 years broadcasting thousands of episodes which has received 33 major awards and nearly 70 award nominations might have received just a little bit of coverage somewhere. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 01:20, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And this library side-conversation still does not address the fact that the mass nomination will and is serving to create more disruption. The sheer number precludes them getting proper attention. The lack of courtesy notification precludes contributors from being set to a search for their "favorite" articles. And if ALL are deleted, these contributors will come back and wonder just what the heck happened to their good faith contributions... as

WP:CIV does not allow the presumption that every editor who ever contributed to these articles did so in bad faith and as vandalism. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 01:20, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Sure, Home and Away has received heaps of attention and heaps of articles and material has been written about it, that's why Matthew hasn't nominated Home and Away. However, very few of the characters themselves have been written about in RS compliant sources and the few that have (Sally, Alf, Charlie etc) haven't been nominated. Sarah

There is a lot of plot junk, but that doesn't justify throwing them all out. We're supposed to at least attempt to find salvageable information. This is going to take a lot more than seven day to properly deal with these articles. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 10:10, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep lists, rework lists to conform to MOS, merge characters to lists This is a bit overwhelming to deal with all of these at once. These could probably be displayed on a list, but I'm not sure the lists are named properly, and there shouldn't be duplicates of anything. Trim out the fan-plot summaries and merge what's left of each character article into the list. Keep any characters that have met coverage requirements. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 10:04, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Just for the record, I would consider something along the lines of this an okay solution. I did not anticipate or expect this AFD and had been considering a solution of redirecting the non-notable character pages to a central list containing the basic character information (which is all these most of these pages are once you remove the storyline essays. So I would actually be satisfied with what Kraftlos proposes here. I would still rather get rid of the page histories because I know the fans will keep edit warring restoring their storyline essays as they have been leading up to this AFD and after previous AFDs which closed as redirect. I just hope that people who don't want them deleted will volunteer to help deal with cleaning up these articles because it's way too much for Orderinchaos and I to deal with and at present very, very few people are even around these articles and we're greatly outnumbered by the edit warring fans on dynamic IPs who refuse to even engage in discussion. Sarah 14:33, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• I agree - this would be quite an acceptable solution. Re the last part of what Sarah said, yeah it's completely unacceptable that two admins are left with the *entire* burden of enforcement of policy against a literal army of IPs, putting ourselves at risk of 3RR and having to blat recreated articles (and figure out which ones are recreated and which ones are not). I have never seen most of the ardent Keep voters ever before trying to help us. Orderinchaos 20:16, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I am concerned over the comment immediately above -- which reminds me of the triggers for police brutality. A former mayor of Toronto, John Sewell, wrote a book where he explained how good cops get drawn into police brutality. His explanation was similar to that famous quote from the War in Vietnam: "We had to destroy the village, in order to save it." The Police, he explained, have their own subculture. Their values were not the same as those embodied in the laws they enforce. Public order plays a much higher role in Police values than the laws they enforce. A strict compliance with the law is frustrating for the police, because it results in suspects they are sure are bad guys escaping punishment, on technicalities. So, what, exactly, is being argued, above? Are you arguing that over-worked and frustrated admins, concerned over the coverage of this topic, should feel free to bend or break the wikipedia's policies because it is really important to keep the wikipedia's coverage of this topic under greater control? No topic is so important it justifies our administrators lapsing from a strict compliance with our policies. Geo Swan (talk) 16:16, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The fact that there are so many G5 nominations, that the IPs will not comply with Wikipedia procedure and simply blindly revert, the SPAs have no interest in engaging or discussing their actions even when they get blocked for them (totally in line with policy, too) - what would you suggest? "Strict compliance" never saved anyone or anything, that is why we have
    Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy nor is it governed by statute. The selective interpretation of policy - that a constantly changing deletion policy, should trump V, NPOV, OR, NOT, all cornerstones of our encyclopaedia - is ridiculous to me. Orderinchaos 18:33, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]

• Keep all -- Nominator should withdraw this flawed nomination. Many of these article are mere stubs. But, as the nominator acknowledges, some are longer -- they are a different case. Nominator should pick the half dozen longest, but unreferenced articles, and nominate them, making the effort to properly inform the article creators. Maybe references can be found. If those working on these articles have the energy to improve them, and find references -- once that concern is brought to their attention, a half dozen is the most articles one can reasonably expect good faith article rescuers to work on at once. A half dozen is about the most articles one can expect the participants in a deletion forum to take a proper look at, and put on their watchlist, so they can notice the article has been improved to the extent they would reverse a deletion opinion. If those half dozen articles end up being deleted then the shorter ones should be open and shut. Geo Swan (talk) 13:35, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you understand what is going on at all. They don't care about references. They don't care about Wikipedia policies and we have tried to explain why certain material isn't suitable for Wikipedia but all that happens is they ignore us and return regularly in what appears like an organised manner to edit war over restoring their essays to the pages, to such an extent that about 20 of the pages which we've tried to make a start on cleaning up have had to be protected. Sarah 14:33, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"They"?? As some sort of "US versus Them" mentality in an encyclopedia anyone can edit? Did you yourself understand all policies and guidelines when you first edited? Did experienced editors then treat you as some sort of uneducatable heathen and delete your edits out of hand? Is such an expectation toward newcomers now becoming the unwritten rule? Wikipedia is not for only experienced editors. It is about and for the readers. It is up to the experienced editors to encourage growth in newcomers, not alienate them or antagonoze them by tossing out their good faith contributions as if they did not matter. The fact that "they" include informations about subjects that the "us"

time required to seperate the wheat from the chaff. Mass nominations, whether perceived as disruptive or not, and whether intended as diruption or not, do not best serve the project. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 19:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Your assumption of good faith of these "editors" (who are not interested in being "educated", and shift IP so regularly that a logical place to "educate" them doesn't exist) extends well beyond any measure of common sense. They're just fans of a show who want Wikipedia to show every last detail of their heroes' lives, whether it belongs here or not, and will not take no for an answer. The patterns of behaviour suggest an uncanny level of coordination, possibly from a fan forum, but we're yet to find it. Discussion works only when one has a line of communication. I look forward to seeing your efforts in modifying their behaviour in the future. Orderinchaos 20:21, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, it's just charming isn't it when the AGF falls to a bunch of edit warring IPs who refuse to engage in discussion, rather than a couple of long term established and experienced admins who have spent huge amounts of time trying to clean up a walled garden of junk. I too look forward to seeing an influx of experienced editors willing to clean up these articles. I would hate to think we have people who sit around AFD pontificating and lecturing but who refuse to actually do the work implementing the outcome they demand. 8 Sarah 03:05, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protection prevents anonymous IPs from editing a page. That leaves registered accounts that can be schooled if willing to learn or blocked if not. As for me, I do my share of contributing and improving, so I hope you're not including me as a "pontificator". MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 07:21, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ATD. Thank you. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 22:54, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

I'm sorry but that's just such a ludicrous response. You've clearly not bothered to look very deeply at what has been happening. As I've said already, an initial effort to clean up unverifiable material resulted in an influx of IPs and new accounts edit warring over restoring their storyline essays to such an extent that more than 20 articles have had to be protected. I'm obviously not referring to any editors editing in good faith but a core group who refuse to respond to messages, are distinctly SPA-like in their edits who come here solely to edit war over restoring their material and when they don't get their own way, they post their essays under different names, which is how we wound up with a bunch of articles about the same characters. Unfortunately there are very few responsive good faith editors in this subject area who actually want to edit with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, rather than treating us as a hosting facility. Any good faith editors who are responsive and want to edit within policy and write articles that comply with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines are most welcome and I am most willing to help and advise such editors to find their way around this project and write compliant articles. Sarah 03:05, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep all for now. Mass noms are a really bad idea for this very reason; some likely should be merged while others should be kept. If fans are building these - so what? We look for good articles and this is possibel in many of these. For those that aren't a list article is an acceptable solution. This nom just seems very pointy which is a bad idea for XfD.
  -- Banjeboi 22:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Keep:They provide a valuable resource on the show and the characters and are as valid as any other article on a fictional character. Alternately, if it is felt they are not worthy of individual articles, move all the details to
  List of current Home and Away characters. Especially keep Recurring characters of Home and Away, this contains information that does not belong in either of the other two lists and should be maintained as a separate list. Skteosk (talk) 22:19, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Incidentally, I have been involved in editing or creating many of these pages. I am not part of a conspiracy. I have only ever been contacted to be told that a page has been deleted or is about to be deleted. I have taken great care to ensure that all contributions I make are the work of myself and no-one else. I apologise if I have broken any rules but I believe that these articles, which I feel are frequently singled out ahead of identical articles, should not cause offence to anyone. Skteosk (talk) 22:24, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment See. My point has now been made, and thank you. Here above speaks
  put away that brush that continues to paint all as unredeemable pariahs. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 22:59, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Merge and redirect all to
  original research. The best solution is to merge these all; this preserves the information that they are characters as well as removes most of the problems listed above. No prejudice to recreation of individual articles after there's evidence presented that an individual subject meets our policies and guidelines. ThemFromSpace 23:06, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • TFS offers a cogent and well-thought opinion that the mass nomination did not even attempt to address. A proper merge and redirect that preserves the histories and allows recreation could indeed serve the project. Nice. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 01:26, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed and as I've said, I would find a solution along these lines acceptable, however we need a lot of help to implement it and as such a staunch advocate of this subject area, I look forward to seeing you over there helping us to do so. Sarah 03:05, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

When it closes as temporary keep all so that such can be then impemented, I'll be here. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 08:55, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge stubs & redir - It may be a lot of work, but I do believe that the Group is notable (notice small caps) to
  WP:Notable (notice large caps)). Exit2DOS2000^•T•C• 03:09, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• The nominator did not include 3 of the 100? I have not been notified by DGG, nor am I privvy to or even heard of Wikien-l before your comment above, but if he said "all" (100%), he should modify that statement to say "most" (97%). I hardly think that 3 not being nominated does much to justify that 100 were. A mass nomination is never for the best when other options are available, even if an editor or two are frustrated with the pages being a magnet for anonymous IPs. That calls for protection, not deletion. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 07:31, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I just named three off the top of my head as examples of some that were't nominated but by no means was that all of them. Other articles not nominated include Justine Welles, Pippa Ross, Josie Russell (Home and Away), Liam Murphy (Home and Away), Miles Copeland (character), and Lance Smart. And there are others. I wasn't trying to "justify" anything, thankyou; I was simply providing correct information for any users who come here after reading the incorrect information DGG posted to the mailing list. It's really very unhelpful that you make these kinds of authoritative sounding (but actually false) comments without being willing to get off your AFD chair and go into this corner of the project and get the actual, you know, facts. I really wish you would stop sniping from the sidelines and actually do something constructive to help clean these articles you insist we kept. What, for example, are you going to do about the multiple articles for the one characters which you want kept? Perhaps you would be so kind to go and do some merge and redirects to resolve that problem since you are so intent on keeping all articles. It's very, very easy to sit at AFD sniping, lecturing and judging others but not so easy to actually go into this subject area and clean it up and then maintain it. I would really appreciate your help doing so. Sarah 02:56, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• That a small number were not nominated does not detract that far too too too many were so all at once. To address the concerns of the nominator will require indepth researches to attempt improving any portion of 100+ articles against the ticking of the clock... more than a bit overwhelming. And will then would require coming back here as the sands trickle out of the hourglass to debate further about which ones were improved enough to merit a keep and which ones merit a redirect or merge. I have other areas of the project where I devote my time...
  WP:V. Now that the nominator's concerns have been made, this AfD should close all as a temporary keep and semi-protect all from any contributions from anonymous IPs. Then editors can coordinate efforts to save the ones that may be salvagable or redirect/merge the ones that are not. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 08:55, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• As I said, I have no real objection to the details being moved to appropriate list articles. It is the unfortunate habit of deleting whole articles or stripping them down to the bare bones that I find somewhat disrespectful. I admit many of the articles relate to short-term guest characters (one of whom was only in two episodes) and could quite possibly be deleted although I think it would be fairer to move the content to Recurring characters of Home and Away (another reason to keep it in existence). I have been endeavouring to "trouble shoot" List of Home and Away characters and ensure it only lists characters who were officially classified as "main" on either the opening or closing credits, as I believe was the intention. My only claim to being an expert on the subject is watching the show for a number of years and occasionally contributing to fan sites but I would be willing to provide whatever help and advice is needed to prevent the whole resource being the victim of mass deletion. Skteosk (talk) 12:39, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Skteosk, thank you very much, I appreciate your willingness to come and help clean this subject area up and bring it in line with Wikipedia policy and guideliness. Your help is most welcome and I will come and talk to you on your talk page when this discussion is over. Sarah 02:56, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Although I'm on wikibreak and working on a variety of other areas too, I'll do what I can to assist also. I think the end picture will look like a heap of redirects to a list for those characters who are "bit parts" or low impact/simply a plot device, while a selection of short (but not stubbish) reasonable articles on the key characters at various points and over time can be built up, and an emphasis on references where they exist would be a positive thing, and I'd be happy to encourage anyone who wants to help with it. It's good from a maintenance point of view too as less articles and less crap means less work to keep/develop (and is also a good "gatekeeper" on false spoilers and such things). Orderinchaos 11:01, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Keep all per DGG , DreamFocus and Schmidt. Those wanting deletion seem to have some strong and valid points. But at the end of the day I dont think its going to hurt the encylopedia to have a few articles on a soap written in a more fan friendly perspective than we’d normally wish. If these were in a topic area like science or religion the case for such mass deletion would be much stronger. Not agreeing with everything Geo said, but basically upgrading to Strong keep per Geo Swan and ANobody. FeydHuxtable (talk) 18:51, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete all. This material is not encyclopedic, it belongs on a fan forum or such, not on Wikipedia. WWGB (talk) 04:47, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• 'Merge all individual articles AND character lists to
  talk · contribs) 09:07, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Comment -- Since no one else had left the good faith heads-ups on the talk pages of the creators of these articles I started doing so. I know the opinion has been expressed above that this was unnecessary. If I have understood the xplanation as to why the good faith heads-ups are not necessary, it is because those concerned about these articles had already tried patiently explaining what was wrong with these articles, and had exhausted their ability to
  assume good faith. User:Conquistador2k6 replied. I encouraged them
  to come here, and weigh in on whether the efforts made by those with concerns over these articles, to explain the concerns, were sufficient.

I continue to feel that our nominator should have had a good reason to choose not to comply with the recommendation of the deletion policies to leave those good faith heads-ups. And, if those concerned about these articles had really made a significant effort to communicate with those working on these articles, I am mystified as to why I didn't see any indication of those efforts on the talk pages of the articles, or the talk pages of the contributors.

The suggestion has been made above that this mass nomination was not a wholesale, indiscriminate nomination made with little consideration to the after-effects -- because there were several Home and Away articles the nominator didn't list. But didn't the nominator have to edit the list, after the nomination, having included several articles that for one reason or another shouldn't have been listed?

Several contributors here have tried to defend the nominator's decision to not bother informing those working on these articles that they had been nominated for deletion. They have repeated that it is not required. They have also repeated that the show of good faith is not necessary. Strictly speaking the policies don't require this show of good faith, but I absolutely can not agree that this show of good faith is not necessary. I regard it as absolutely essential. Those concerned about these articles have cast serious doubt about the character, judgment and motives of those who want to work on these articles, and have challenged those contributors commitment to the project's core policies. Newbies aren't mind-readers. A newbie who only returns to the project occasionally, isn't going to see that the article was formally nominated for deletion. They aren't going to see discussion on the deletion forum. When those deleting the articles don't inform the newbies, they can't expect the newbies to learn what our policies and procedures are. They can't expect them to learn from their mistakes. When those deleting articles can't be bothered to inform the newbies that formal steps to delete the article were initiated it is extremely unfair to characterize the newbies as the contributors who are acting in bad faith. How in the name of heck are the newbies supposed to know that the deletion of this material was backed up by policy, and their recreation of the material was not, when those making the nomination chose not to inform them of the nomination?

I continue to think the best thing would be for the nominator to withdraw this flawed nomination, and initiate a better researched, more limited nomination -- one that was respectful to the efforts of good-faith contributors. Geo Swan (talk) 15:57, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree with Geo here,. Not notifying people is always bad. Saying they were notified already in essence is not a n excuse, when its so easy to make sure they are aware. Such practice always looks like an attempt to try to get things through in the hope that at least some of the opponents will not notice. Nominating a large number of articles of varying degree of notability is also never a good idea--the almost inevitable result, unless stopped, is for the medium notable ones to be lost, because the argument is based on the least notable of the batch. Neit4her of these show good faith.m they show rather an attempt to deleted all one can get away with regardless of the merits, or, more likely, a view that the arguments of those who might want too preserve these articles are so contemptible that they are not worth taking account of. On the basis of this AfD I think it is time to propose a change strongly deprecating joining afds unless the circumstances are truly identical., and saying that if any good faith editor will say that they are not, the nomination must be split. DGG (talk) 08:52, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

At the end of the day we're more interested in finding a solution that works than in process wonkery. Following the letter of the law has not worked to date, so we need to try a more intelligent approach. This is what is being attempted here, in my view - something drastic needed to be done to pull the category into line, and something drastic will probably happen, although it may not be in the exact terms of the nomination. One final note - you repeatedly cite AGF and insist that we should show it to vandals (while yourself failing to show it to those of us who are trying to help the encyclopaedia - some of your notices to contributors re this AfD border on

WP:AGF if you read it: "Unless there is strong evidence to the contrary" is an important caveat. There are good faith users who we can work with (e.g. Skteosk and Conquistador), but the ones responsible for this mess are not within their number. Orderinchaos 18:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

• I put my reply to the concern that I have canvassed other wikipedians, and written "shameful" comments on the afd's talk page. Geo Swan (talk) 10:30, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete all. This is not what Wikipedia is for, IMHO, and everything is unverified per
  WP:V. I suggest the fans create their own wiki, if there isn't one already. –Moondyne 00:49, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Delete all & redirect per
  WP:NOT. There is strong consensus that this stuff should be in a character list. Eusebeus (talk) 13:00, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Speedy keep all as disruptive mass nomination (the community cannot reasonably be expected to adequately review scores of these in a mere week and based on comments above, it is clear that accounts are indeed just looking at some without considering each one, which is problematic because they vary considerably on terms of quality from one to the next; and also disruptive because of the various bad faith accusations in the discussion above). Moreover, various of the so-called delete claims above either reflect not looking at the articles or are flatout just dishonest. Let us first take the titular article. Well, its contents are certainly
  WP:PRESERVE. Now whether the individual articles should remain or if they should me merged or redirect is for the individual talk pages. Deletion is clearly and overwhelmingly a bad call that no one seriously supports, and again, the notability and verifiability varies per character. Tony Holden and the actor who played as him as a search string gets six Google News hits, some others get more, others less. It would take a post equal to this entire discussion thus far and then some to adequately go through every single one of the items listed above. Finally, Wikipedia does not have a deadline. There is no pressing, dire need to hurry up and get rid of these now when other options like sourcing (as I have begun to do to Hugo Austin and the second item on the list, etc.--the sources are out there!), or merging and redirecting are on the table. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 17:59, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Um, all that source you added says is "Hugo Austin (Bernard Curry)". I'm not kidding (people can click to see for themselves), that is all it says about this character. It does not say anything *about* the character beyond its mere existence in the show. "No evidence beyond mere existence" is a quite valid AfD argument for delete. There is no "out of universe" information there. The six Tony Holden hits - four are from unreliable sources and one is about the actor, not the character - it would support expansion of

walled garden is entirely false, and anything inserted as a "spoiler" cannot be trusted as it does not indicate its source (indeed, I've seen criticism of Wikipedia's H&A articles on exactly this base in a range of fan forums). In fact I think you have demonstrated quite well the sound basis that exists for deletion - these articles are for the most part entirely indefensible. Orderinchaos 18:51, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

No basis beyond

WP:IDONTLIKEIT exists for deletion, which of course is no legitimate basis. The actor playing as the character is out of universe information; the critical comments about the character in the sources is out of universe information; etc. That this information comes entirely from reliable sources demonstrates that the articles should either be kept and expanded further or merged and redirected with edit history intact. Thus, this nomination is entirely indefensible and thus far has only been sustained by falsehoods and attacks on other editors, i.e. it has been disruptive and unproductive and serves no beneficial purpose for our project, whereas actually improving the articles does or having more considerate and careful discussions on individual article talk pages would have. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 19:26, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

The actor has nothing to do with the character - the actor is a real world person, the character is a fictitious representation created by a script writer which the actor happens to represent. I see no critical commentary in the four words "Hugo Austin (Bernard Curry)", therefore I'm unsure what you are referring to. Articles on Wikipedia need to meet notability, they need to sustain themselves from independent, reliable secondary sources which primarily pertain to the subject, and they need to avoid original research or claims which cannot be sustained from such sources. That, in summary, is the problem with the great majority of these articles. I actually *do* like some of them, so "IDONTLIKEIT" doesn't really apply, but my liking them as a mildly amusing work of fiction (whether or not it correctly describes the onscreen fiction) has nothing to do with its encyclopaedic value. Orderinchaos 20:07, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The character is from a show that is notable to everyone who watches it and for all the sources that cover the character. And again, the problem with this mass nomination is that while I added one source to Hugo Austin, I found considerable out of universe information in interviews and the like for another character who clearly is notable and absolutely can be expanded to include out of universe sections beyond just the plot elements (I only scratched the surface for this character). And in event, the characters are doubly notable per User:GlassCobra/Essays/Hotties are always notable, which is the best notability "guideline" anyone has ever come up with on this site! Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 20:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete all This long discussion has not turned up a single valid reason for keeping these unreferenced personal essays on non-notable topics. A list with a one-line description of each character might be appropriate if it can be supported with reliable references. Drawn Some (talk) 00:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.