Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Maggie Siner

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. While the subject seems to be on the borderline of notability, the consensus in this discussion is that this individual is on the non-notable side of that borderline. —⁠ScottyWong⁠— 19:34, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maggie Siner

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Maggie Siner (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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There are sources in the article that make it look legit, but once I scrape below the surface a bit, I cannot find any sources that are in-depth and independent.There are one or two good mentions, but no record of museum collections or significant shows outside of the private gallery circuit that might make her meet

WP:NARTIST. --- Possibly ☎ 02:25, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply
]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Artists-related deletion discussions. --- Possibly ☎ 02:25, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. --- Possibly ☎ 02:25, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 09:51, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Rhode Island-related deletion discussions. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 09:52, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 09:52, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It is also worth mentioning that he article is here because the person who wrote it made several trips to Venice to interview the artist. At some point they became friends and the article creator continued to edit/maintain the page. See the talk page for four new maintenance edits that are requested. I really wonder if we would have a page on her if it were not for these COI efforts, which is why I nominated it. --- Possibly ☎ 14:43, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. That was very enlightening. Definitely decisive in my vote for deletion above then. ExRat (talk) 14:56, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there I think it is not fair on Morningbastet tu showel suspiscions of retributed contributing, I think she discovered the artist, started to write and then befriended her not the other way round. However I have found that the Thomas Balch Library has acquired one of her paintings but they have not yet put it up on their website. However the information is here. I think the subject of this article is effetively in a grey zone of notability, but still the longevity of her appearances (from 1988) is a fact. It is such a shame though that so many primary sources were used, but Morningbastet just made a newbie mistake there :/Nattes à chat (talk) 15:13, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There is no suspicions at all here. Morningbastet confirmed that they worked in person with the artist to create the article through interviews, and then maintained the article over the years as a friend. Those are just facts that came from Morningbastet. --- Possibly ☎ 15:41, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have received from Morningbastet about 4 scanned articles of printed newspapers but there are no online versions. The newspapers are Loudoum Time's Mirror, Elan Magazine among (which this one cited in the references : “Bones Become Man’s Likeness”, Washington Post, April 4, 1988). I can send the articles for a check. I think this establishes the fact that she is known over a period of time. I am afraid that most of the articles can only be found in their printed form. There is also an article in the "American artist" from Betsy schein Goldman of 1993 which is centered on her an not an interview. I think it would be a mistake to delete this article just because the refs are not online. Nattes à chat (talk) 18:57, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Vexations. Where can I find versions of these two articles :
  • Weak delete I did a search on ProQuest and there were a few sources better than mere mentions: a 1993 article on her in American Artist magazine (just the summary); a fairly short article in the Washington Post; and a half-decent article in a publication called Roll Call. I suspect if all the sources were gathered she might pass
    WP:GNG but so far I'm not seeing enough out there. Curiocurio (talk) 19:11, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Weak delete I found a 2019 Washington Post review that has three paragraphs about her work, and a 2017 Washington Post review with two sentences, a 2019 local news with four sentences of attention to her work, a 2008 local news interview with an artist citing Siner as an influence, a 2016 art gallery's blog interview with another artist citing Siner as a mentor, a 2016 interview with some
    WP:BASIC. Beccaynr (talk) 04:20, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Comment On ProQuest, there is a May 1991 Washington Post article titled "Neighbors" with quotes from her, as well as a general reference to her experience teaching anatomy at Georgetown University and as a medical illustrator, a mention about how 3 years prior she assisted police, how she is currently planning an educational trip to China, that she previously taught at the Cleveland Institute of Art in France for 6 months, and she is currently showing work at a local gallery. The abstract for the American Artist feature is two lines and includes, "Maggie Siner is a prolific artist whose ease with her chosen medium and understanding of color and light make her a standout among those working in oil". Based on the
WP:BASIC even if it is a solid, in-depth feature. Beccaynr (talk) 20:22, 20 September 2021 (UTC) comment updated (website reference removed) to reflect additional research Beccaynr (talk) 20:42, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Keep I saw there is an exhition here going on now at the Dr. Bernard Heller Museum in New York and there is an exhibition catalog HERE where for this exhibition, which comforts me with the idea that her work is being recongnized. There were articles about her in 1988 according to the references so notability is demonstrated throughout time. For sure she is in a grey zone, but I think that given the current exhibition her notability has not disappeared and could progress in the future. Nattes à chat (talk) 09:35, 20 September 2021 (UTC) [reply]
It may be worth noting that the Heller museum is a religious institute and not an art museum. The two sources given do not help much as they consist of a name check on the site, which lists about 50 other artists in the show, and a single sentence description of her work in the catalogue, presumably written by the artist. --- Possibly ☎ 11:06, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Being a religious museum nonetheless makes it a museum and Siner appears in the exhibition catalog. I am searching for more of these exhibition catalogs as I don't think this has been done. Nattes à chat (talk) 14:07, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
A group show in a religious museum is something, but what is needed to establish notability or artists is a set of reviews or critical texts that are independent of the artist and talk about their work in depth. Exhibition catalogues are not great as they are produced in concert with the artists to show the artist in a favourable light. Another possibility is that if the artist has been included in museum collections, these can be used to establish notability via
WP:NARTIST. Neither of these seem to be true here, and several skilled editors have found only minor coverage. I'll stop commenting here. --- Possibly ☎ 14:16, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply
]
Comment The 2016 Ytali feature is available online: Maggie Siner: The Non-conformity of True Art, and as noted above, Elan does not appear to be a sufficiently reliable source to support notability. Beccaynr (talk) 16:03, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this page.
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