Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Brandon (pornographic actor)
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was speedy keep. Nomination withdrawn by nominator ]
Michael Brandon (pornographic actor)
I am withdrawing the nomination --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 18:42, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
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I went through all the sources here and I can't find anything suitable to sustain notability: n.1)it's an interview (primary source), n2)it's literally one mention, n.3)it's his own page, n.4) IMDb (not reliable), n.5) it's an interview (primary source), n.6,7,8 and 9) announcing the winner of a porn prize and porn prize do not count to prove notability since pornbio was deprecated. plus, in 3 of these sources his name doesn't even appear. So bad sourcing that doesn't yield notability. AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 02:19, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 02:41, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sexuality and gender-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 02:41, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 02:41, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been added to the WikiProject Pornography list of deletions.CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 02:43, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep I'd argue that while interviews shouldn't be used to establish something mentioned in them, OTOH the mere _fact_ that a WP:RS decided to interview somebody, is good enough to count for notability purposes. Would SF Weekly interview me (or millions of others)? No. But they did interview Brandon, so there should be something special about him. Ipsign (talk) 07:02, 12 May 2020 (UTC)]
- @Ipsign: actually I stongly agee with you, but is this a wikipedia policy or not? we should establish that interviews, at least those on very good media, count at least for notoriety. speaking of these Interviews, SF weekly is a local paper right? something distributed only in the sf bay area. so we have 2 interviews one of which on a local news paper, I don't believe that makes someone notable for WP standards. --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 10:08, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep, easily meets GNG, which should have been obvious if WP:Before had been followed. Gleeanon409 (talk) 08:15, 12 May 2020 (UTC)]
- Delete, interviews are primary sources, meaning they are useless for the purposes of establishing notability. As a result, this person fails WP:GNG, since there are no sources that would contribute to it. Devonian Wombat (talk) 10:31, 12 May 2020 (UTC)]
- Keep Meets the GNG. The Sfweekly article is fine. It is not a straightforward interview with Brandon; there are quotes from him, but also form others, commentary on the crystal meth problem & scene, discussion of his career, and even investigating reporting by the writer looking up his past criminal records. In addition, there's other sources out there in gay Media. http.Bay Area Reporter Advocate Out Chris7179 (talk) 15:09, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Delete a non-notable pornographic performer.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:13, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per the SF Weekly and Bay Area Reporter coverage. Where is the "local newspaper" problem described in a policy? I'm skeptical that San Francisco can be dismissed as "local". — Toughpigs (talk) 23:01, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- comment Honestly it is a bit confusing to me. I personally wrote Carlo Masi bio and to be accepted I was asked (otherwise they woulsn't accept it) to show consistent presence on national and international papers (mainstream). Carlo Masi is just an example, I can see other porn actors who can present such sourcing. So, why are we keeping articles like this one basing on one single article which happens to be a half interview? I see people are voting keep and I accept it but I would like to understand why they are doing so, what is their keep based on?. When I nominate an article I expect 3 possible results: the article is deleted, the article is improved, I am given an explanation of why I wouldn't have nominated that article and how the sourcing proves notability. Here I can't see any of these results happening. We are discussing if one single article. How many people had an article like this in their life? Bilion, I really can't see how in good faith one can say that this article alone proves notability. where and what did you find in the guideline that makes you suppose that one or 2 articles make person notable?. what I feel is that some people are voting keep basing on their personal perseption of this subject. when we deprecated pornbio we decided that porn is not a short cut to wikipedia. people of porn hav to show the same level of notability than the others. --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 10:36, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- I think you may want to take a break from your quest to delete articles in this area. The sources usually exist but for systematic discrimination do not pop in a plain Google search.
- LGBTQ content is typically discriminated against; there are leading national, regional, and locally-focused media which almost never are tracked by Google.
- Gay porn news is almost never going to show in a Google search without the exact website.
- Loads of mainstream, and gay-porn focused print media is not accessible online, but have done in-depth articles and interviews—which are certainly acceptable—have to found offline.
- When I look I see plenty of sources for Brandon. Gleeanon409 (talk) 11:14, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment. I found the following, although some are mere mentions, others do go in depth:
- "Adult Star Michael Brandon | Gay | AEBN". gay.aebn.com. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- Jul 28; 2011 | 2 (2011-07-28). "Monster's ball". Dallas Voice. Retrieved 2020-05-13.
{{cite web}}
:|last2=
has numeric name (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)</ref>
- "Porn Giant Michael Brandon Vows Comeback After Rehab Stint". www.advocate.com. 2008-12-12. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- Dec 8; 2011 | 1 (2011-12-08). "Slick move". Dallas Voice. Retrieved 2020-05-13.
{{cite web}}
:|last2=
has numeric name (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)</ref>
- "SF gay men's group welcomes new executive director". The Bay Area Reporter / B.A.R. Inc. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- Gremore, Graham (2013-11-23). "Lukas Ridgeston, Mason Wyler and More: Five Awesome Adult Film Comebacks". Queerty. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- "Gay AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- "Town hall addresses suicide, solutions". The Bay Area Reporter / B.A.R. Inc. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- XBIZ. "Michael Brandon Arrested on Drug Charges". XBIZ. Retrieved 2020-05-14.</ref>
- "Coming up in leather & kink". The Bay Area Reporter / B.A.R. Inc. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- "Trick or treat!". The Bay Area Reporter / B.A.R. Inc. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- "The Last Dance: Nob Hill Theatre, SF's only male strip club, to close". The Bay Area Reporter / B.A.R. Inc. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- Lee, Byron (2014-01-01). "It's a question of breeding: Visualizing queer masculinity in bareback pornography". Sexualities. 17 (1–2): 100–120. ISSN 1363-4607.</ref>
- "Golden Dildeaux dish". The Bay Area Reporter / B.A.R. Inc. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- AVN, Mickey Skee. "Mickey's Quickies | Jerry Douglas' 'Deep Throat' Kicks Up, Lukas Ridgeston Gears Up, Plus Gay Gossip AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- AVN, G. Zisk Rice. "Tony Dimarco Becomes a Raging Stallion AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- "Gay AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- XBIZ. "My Big Fucking Dick Michael Brandon". XBIZ. Retrieved 2020-05-14.</ref>
- XBIZ. "GayPornStar.TV Announces Top 10 Male Porn Stars". XBIZ. Retrieved 2020-05-14.</ref>
- "Frankie Knuckles, RIP". The Bay Area Reporter / B.A.R. Inc. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- AVN, G. Zisk Rice. "Tony Dimarco Becomes a Raging Stallion AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- "Michael Brandon Sex Suite at Palm Springs Resort Opens This Weekend AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- "Sex is Fun Podcast su Apple Podcasts". Apple Podcasts (in Italian). Retrieved 2020-05-14.</ref>
- AVN, G. Zisk Rice. "New Raging Stallion Releases Hit Multiple Niches AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- "Adventure travel". The Bay Area Reporter / B.A.R. Inc. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- AVN, G. Zisk Rice. "Michael Brandon Awaiting Felony Trial AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- "News Briefs: HRC panel to focus on immigration, LGBTs". The Bay Area Reporter / B.A.R. Inc. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- Barrett, Rusty (2017-06-01). From Drag Queens to Leathermen: Language, Gender, and Gay Male Subcultures. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-987496-5.</ref>
- AVN, G. Zisk Rice. "David Taylor, Austin Wilde Share Raging Stallion 'Man of the Year' Award AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- AVN, G. Zisk Rice. "Raging Stallion Names Ricky Sinz Man of the Year AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- "Meth-Head Michael Brandon Back to Porn?". Queerty. 2008-12-10. Retrieved 2020-05-13.
{{cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (link)</ref>
- AVN, Mickey Skee. "Mickey's Quickies | Daxx Reed Dead, Michael Brandon Back, Lana Luster Resurrected AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- "MONSTER, INC.: Michael Brandon turns 40 with a new boyfriend, a new line of adult toys, and a hot ‘party in the rear.’ AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- AVN, Mickey Skee. "Mickey's Quickies | Michael Brandon's Looking Good, Brent Everett Signs With C1R, Cody Kyler Attacked, Gay Gossip AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- "Jason Sechrest To Host 'Porn Star Talk' at Stockholm Pride AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- AVN, Mickey Skee. "Mickey's Quickies: The Best of the Past Decade AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- "Latest News AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- AVN, Tom Hymes. "Gay Porn Star Roman Ragazzi Dead from Reported Suicide AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- AVN, Benji Featherstone. "Ragazzi, Cruz Tie For RS Man of Year, Brandt Bestowed With "Bigger Than Life" Award AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- AVN, Rick Richards. "Ragazzi Outing Makes Mainstream Headlines AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- Belonksy, Andrew (2008-10-03). "Sad". Queerty. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- AVN, Mickey Skee. "Mickey's Quickies | Michael Brandon's Looking Good, Brent Everett Signs With C1R, Cody Kyler Attacked, Gay Gossip AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- "2013 Grabbys Held This Weekend in Chicago AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- Han, Sarah (19 November 2003). "8 Days a Week". San Francisco Bay Guradian. Retrieved 2008-03-12.</ref>
- AVN, Mickey Skee. "Mickey's Quickies | Michael Brandon's Inappropriate Behavior, Gus Mattox's 'Canned Ham,' Brandon Lee's Comeback Wish AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- AVN, G. Zisk Rice. "Bad Boys on the Hudson Scheduled for July 11 AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- Kliem, Mark (18 September 2006). "Porn Star Auditions". Lavender Lounge. Retrieved 2008-03-12.</ref>
- Harrell, Ashley. "The Rise and Fall of the Monster". SF Weekly. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- 2002 Grabby Award Nominees & Winners Performer Awards. Retrieved 2008-04-19. Archived 2008-04-30 at the Wayback Machine</ref>
- "Jake Deckard Named Raging Stallion's 2007 Man of the Year AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- 2005 Grabby Award Nominees & Winners Special Awards. Retrieved 2008-04-19. Archived 2008-03-28 at the Wayback Machine</ref>
- Keehnen, Owen. "MICHAEL BRANDON Interviewed by Owen Keehnen for the upcoming book STARZ". Retrieved 29 July 2012.</ref>
- "Michael Brandon Signs on as Vice President of 9X6 Lube AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- "FabScout Entertainment Taps Michael Brandon as Director of Live Events AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- "RileyPriceless.com Celebrates Christmas Cocktails Wednesday in WEHO AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- AVN, Mickey Skee. "Mickey's Quickies | Sharon Kane Discusses Porn History, Mark Dalton Dances, Porn Gossip AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- >Van Iquity, Sister Dana (March 15, 2007). "Shamrockin' Shenanigans: Make Way For St. Patrick's Day". San Francisco Bay Times. Archived from the original on February 10, 2012.</ref>
- AVN, Michael Stabile. "Michael Brandon Arrested, Battling Meth AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- "GayVN Awards past winners". Archived from the original on February 19, 2009.</ref>
- "Angelo Marconi, Landon Conrad Named as Industry's Top Performers AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- AVN, Mickey Skee. "Mickey Rings in the New Year with Some Fresh Dish AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- "Michael Brandon to Judge 'American Penis' Contest AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- Grabby Awards Wall of Fame Archived November 17, 2007, at the Wayback Machine. Retrieved April 19, 2008.</ref>
- "Pleasure Unveils Lineup for AVN Adult Entertainment Expo AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- XBIZ. "Gay Industry Awards". XBIZ. Retrieved 2020-05-14.</ref>
- XBIZ. "2010 Grabbys Awards Honors the Best in Gay Adult Entertainment". XBIZ. Retrieved 2020-05-14.</ref>
- XBIZ. "AEBN Announces VOD Award Winners". XBIZ. Retrieved 2020-05-14.</ref>
- "Chi Chi LaRue/Channel 1 Win Big at Fourth Annual Cybersocket Awards AVN". AVN. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- Cybersocket Wall Of Fame Award Of Excellence - MICHAEL BRANDON - "CyberSocketWebAwards". www.cybersocketwebawards.com. Retrieved 2020-05-13.</ref>
- There are more but these should help meet GNG. Gleeanon409 (talk) 12:00, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Gleeanon409: googling any porn actor name will yield many results (ofeten hundred thousands of results) but very rarely there are any suitable sources to prove notability. Now, if we can find a couple of good sources I am more than happy and the page is imporved, otherwise "probably there are sources" is not an good reason to keep an article (even if I read this reason more than once already, see zak spears). I don't agree that porn is censored by google, and there is no problem having sources not online (as long as they actually exist). Some of the article I nominatd have been online for years and if no reliable sources have been added so far I wonder if they actually exist. you suggest me to take a break from nomminating, just tell me if I am being vandalic or if I am breaking any wikiedia rule. I followed everything on before, before nominating and I think my nominations are fair but if I am doing something wrong I need to know. ps. if you answer me please ping me :-) . --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 14:12, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @AlejandroLeloirRey:, I think you are doing something wrong as I just demonstrated. You looked at a poorly written, under sourced article and after some searching(?), assumes it couldn’t become a good or even great article as sourcing didn’t exist. Well it does. And most articles need work, hard research to find information in sources, then re-writing the article to incorporate them. It takes work, and time to do so, far more time than to incorrectly misjudge the situation. When you keep sending articles to be deleted, coupled with perhaps mistakenly misleading nominations, you’re swaying others, who may or may not be mature or wise enough to know where to look, to also make bad decisions. And we all lose when a notable subject’s article is deleted. Gleeanon409 (talk) 14:58, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Gleeanon409: yes, may be I could do more research before nominating and I will do it next time. Still, if an article has been there for 10 years and the sourcing is poor there are little chances to find good sources. like i already told you the fact that a google search yields 10 thousand results, especially for porn actors, doen't tell much about notability. the fact that most of the article I nominated where cancelled and those which were not deleted where relisted at lest once tells me that my nominations where reasonable. I don't want to destroy the porn section of wikipedia but most of the article were accepted under different guidelines. 90% of the porn acotr bio that are now on wikiepdia would not be accepted if they were written today. I want to improve the porn section getting ready of all not notable bios and keep just the bio that are worthy to be kept. speaking of this particular article among all the sources you found, did you find some that definitely prove notability? --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 17:12, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @AlejandroLeloirRey:, you cannot use the current state of the article to judge if a good article is possible, only sourcing and work can tell. You need to do a much better job at researching for sources, IMHO. Gleeanon409 (talk) 17:45, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Gleeanon409: I am going to try harder. --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 18:01, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @AlejandroLeloirRey: I'm sure that you're right that 90% of pages in that topic area are not up to current standards. There are two ways you can work on that problem: by adding more to existing articles and making them better, or by deleting articles that are currently bad. I recommend the improvement project instead of the deletion project, because: 1) It will tangibly improve the amount that readers will learn about the subject. 2) Improving pages is something that you can do yourself, without taking up other editors' time. When you put articles up for deletion, it creates more work for other people. 3) You know from your experience with the Carlo Masi page that articles which look non-notable to some people can be built up to acceptable standards. When you try to delete rather than improve, you risk deleting notable topics just because of how it looks to you. Obviously, you are free to do what you want. I find that improvement is more productive, more satisfying, and better for the project overall. — Toughpigs (talk) 18:11, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Toughpigs: so far I did a lot of work on the articles but just not as much on the sourcing. I assumed that I would find most of the best sourcing already in the articles, especially because the articles are old. now, went trough those links that Gleeanon409 gave me and I found a few (very few) that are not that bad and even though most of the articles were not from reliable sources they all agreed that the subject was very important in the field (even though most of the articles where about his getting arrested again and again for drugs). I included those sources in the article (please check I didn't miss understand anything, you know my english is far from being good). Now i feel that he actually passes notability. --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 18:41, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @AlejandroLeloirRey: I'm sure that you're right that 90% of pages in that topic area are not up to current standards. There are two ways you can work on that problem: by adding more to existing articles and making them better, or by deleting articles that are currently bad. I recommend the improvement project instead of the deletion project, because: 1) It will tangibly improve the amount that readers will learn about the subject. 2) Improving pages is something that you can do yourself, without taking up other editors' time. When you put articles up for deletion, it creates more work for other people. 3) You know from your experience with the Carlo Masi page that articles which look non-notable to some people can be built up to acceptable standards. When you try to delete rather than improve, you risk deleting notable topics just because of how it looks to you. Obviously, you are free to do what you want. I find that improvement is more productive, more satisfying, and better for the project overall. — Toughpigs (talk) 18:11, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Gleeanon409: I am going to try harder. --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 18:01, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @AlejandroLeloirRey:, you cannot use the current state of the article to judge if a good article is possible, only sourcing and work can tell. You need to do a much better job at researching for sources, IMHO. Gleeanon409 (talk) 17:45, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Gleeanon409: yes, may be I could do more research before nominating and I will do it next time. Still, if an article has been there for 10 years and the sourcing is poor there are little chances to find good sources. like i already told you the fact that a google search yields 10 thousand results, especially for porn actors, doen't tell much about notability. the fact that most of the article I nominated where cancelled and those which were not deleted where relisted at lest once tells me that my nominations where reasonable. I don't want to destroy the porn section of wikipedia but most of the article were accepted under different guidelines. 90% of the porn acotr bio that are now on wikiepdia would not be accepted if they were written today. I want to improve the porn section getting ready of all not notable bios and keep just the bio that are worthy to be kept. speaking of this particular article among all the sources you found, did you find some that definitely prove notability? --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 17:12, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @AlejandroLeloirRey:, I think you are doing something wrong as I just demonstrated. You looked at a poorly written, under sourced article and after some searching(?), assumes it couldn’t become a good or even great article as sourcing didn’t exist. Well it does. And most articles need work, hard research to find information in sources, then re-writing the article to incorporate them. It takes work, and time to do so, far more time than to incorrectly misjudge the situation. When you keep sending articles to be deleted, coupled with perhaps mistakenly misleading nominations, you’re swaying others, who may or may not be mature or wise enough to know where to look, to also make bad decisions. And we all lose when a notable subject’s article is deleted. Gleeanon409 (talk) 14:58, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Gleeanon409: googling any porn actor name will yield many results (ofeten hundred thousands of results) but very rarely there are any suitable sources to prove notability. Now, if we can find a couple of good sources I am more than happy and the page is imporved, otherwise "probably there are sources" is not an good reason to keep an article (even if I read this reason more than once already, see zak spears). I don't agree that porn is censored by google, and there is no problem having sources not online (as long as they actually exist). Some of the article I nominatd have been online for years and if no reliable sources have been added so far I wonder if they actually exist. you suggest me to take a break from nomminating, just tell me if I am being vandalic or if I am breaking any wikiedia rule. I followed everything on before, before nominating and I think my nominations are fair but if I am doing something wrong I need to know. ps. if you answer me please ping me :-) . --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 14:12, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.