Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Witches reel

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 10:05, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Witches reel

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Uncited since creation in 2014, I can find no evidence of the claimed traditional dance called the Witches Reel in reliable sources. There are various cribs for dances called "witches reel" online, but they are not all the same dance and none of them seem to have the reliable source coverage to meet

GNG. There's also a supposedly traditional song of the same name, which some sites claim was sung to accompany the dance, but at least one site

claims that it is mostly a modern fabrication rather than a genuinely traditional song.

In summary:

I do not believe that the traditional ceilidh dance (the supposed subject of this article) is real
I cannot find any evidence that any of the real dances or songs under this name are notable

Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 12:30, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Dance and Scotland. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 12:30, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I think it probably isn't notable, however I don't think it is true that the concept was very recently invented. I see references to the four 'traditional' verses of the song in books from the early 1970s. I wouldn't be surprised if there are not RS which confirm that this is a thing from further back, the problem may be finding them. JMWt (talk) 15:46, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Further - fwiw, Burns wrote about a witches reel in 1790 in a poem called Tam o' Shanter (full poem text here). Not sure if this changes anything or not.. but it is interesting.. JMWt (talk) 15:52, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This journal article (which I accessed via the WP Library function) gives some more detail. It says that Reels were associated with witchcraft in the 16 century after some (perhaps scurrilous) reporting of the North Berwick witch trial where the accused was said to have used the dance.

I apologise for perhaps going a bit OTT on this topic, but I would like to suggest now that there are sufficient RS to indicate that the 'Witches Reel' is an encyclopedic topic. An improved page could include pointing to the academic study of the link between witchcraft and reels, Burns and the four verses of the song - noting that it might be unclear how old the latter are. That's not exactly how the wording on the page is at present, but I'm now going to argue the topic is notable and therefore worth keeping. JMWt (talk) 16:17, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think it probably isn't notable, however I don't think it is true that the concept was very recently invented: I'm not suggesting the connection between witches and dancing is a recent invention – there certainly are references going back to the North Berwick witch trials. What I doubt is that there is a "traditional Ceilidh dance from Scotland" called the Witches Reel; I can find texts for at least three Witches Reels online and no evidence that any of those dances are traditional.

Possibly the concept of witches' dances is notable and an article could be written, but if so (a) I am unconvinced that "Witches reel" is the best location for it (Witches' dance maybe?) and (b) that's not what the current article is about, so we still need to decide whether the current topic is notable. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 16:54, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The current page is one line long. If I went and added the references that I've found and edited the copy to reflect that, are you still going to argue it isn't notable? JMWt (talk) 17:16, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Tam O Shanter refers to "Warlocks and witches in a dance...hornpipes, jigs, strathspeys" as well as "reels", otherwise that "They reel'd". There is no other mention and no reference to the term "witches reel". Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:18, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The article is specifically about the Scottish ceilidh dance with that name, which certainly exists and is commonly danced to a set of fast reels at ceilidhs here in north-east Scotland - it looks like this. Andy Greig's 100 Favourite Ceilidh Dances, p.97 has a description and says it was originally danced to a 48-bar jig. It would be a reasonable addition to List of Scottish country dances, but I don't think it's independently notable enough to merit its own page. Adam Sampson (talk) 20:13, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well it is at the moment. I don't see why it has to be exclusively about the Ceilidh or why we can't consider other aspects with regard to notability. JMWt (talk) 20:36, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Re-scope? Merge? Something else?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Star Mississippi 01:37, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - regardless of whether or not it's real, can't find any in-depth coverage to show it passes
WP:GNG.Onel5969 ^{TT me} 22:13, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:07, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this page.