Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 August 19

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August 19

Category:Human Drama

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 04:13, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary, per
WP:OCEPON – eponymous categories should be avoided, and this only has one subcategory for works by the artist... the only other entry is the article for the band itself. Richard3120 (talk) 18:39, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:French people of Portuguese-Jewish descent

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: keep. bibliomaniac15 18:21, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: As I understand it - and I may be wrong - these are essentially the same thing. Rathfelder (talk) 11:00, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge While there are in practice Sephardic Jews who have no Portuguese descent (especially in France), the latter are almost all Sephardic, and often quite far back, so I think the specific categorization of where Jewish ancestors lived is unneeeded.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:38, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I quite agree and I am purging some of the excess Jewish descent categories.Rathfelder (talk) 18:02, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Support merge and purging! --Just N. (talk) 20:44, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the merge as per the logic above. --Dan Carkner (talk) 19:16, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, they are apparently no longer Jews (while they do have Jewish ancestors). One of them even was a Catholic theologian. Also it is part of a huge tree for X people of Y-Jewish descent. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:28, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Marcocapelle's explanation of the category scope. Dimadick (talk) 06:14, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fictional Islamic people

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Fictional Muslims. bibliomaniac15 18:22, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: rename,
WP:C2C per parent Category:Muslims. I am taking this to full discussion just in case it might be controversial. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:28, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply
]
I randomly did a search in about 20% of the articles in the category and the vast majority did mention the word "Muslim", but some did not. I would also support moving this to Category:Portrayal of Muslims in fiction. That category would only include a character if they were deemed significant to popular media conception of Muslims.VR talk 21:29, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move to "Fictional Muslims".VR talk 21:22, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fictional city-states

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: keep. bibliomaniac15 18:20, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: There is no need to categorize down to this level of granularity - a listing of fictional cities will be perfectly fine to encompass the articles of this type, including city-states. ZXCVBNM (TALK) 04:13, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge In real life many cities that were at one point city-states later became part of larger setups, or in the past were and later became city-states, the same things happen in fiction, in some forms of fiction without acknowledging the other set up.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:40, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What I'd like to know is, can anyone explain why Category:Fictional cities is designated as an empty container category to begin with? Does that have anything to do with guideline concerns? I'll be able to form a view once I have the answer. Haleth (talk) 14:11, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Islamic superheroes

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus to delete, so rename to Category:Muslim superheroes. Note, this follows Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2021_August_19#Category:Fictional_Islamic_people where the parent category was not deleted (despite multiple precedents) but renamed to Category:Fictional Muslims. – Fayenatic London 12:23, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: It seems categorizing fictional characters by religion is (sadly) not allowed on en.Wikipedia.
talk) 06:06, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply
]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 02:25, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Rename to Category:Muslim superheroes per bibliomaniac and Marcocapelle. "Islamic superheroes" imply that the character's MO is to champion a cause that is directly related to their religion or to appeal to adherents of the faith in real life. "Muslim superheroes" make more sense since it is more plausible that the religious identify is given as a facet of their overall characterization, as in the stories of the likes of Kamala Khan and Simon Baz. Haleth (talk) 14:15, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Religion is not particularly defining for most real people either. Because their religion is not the reason for their significance. The only exception are Jews, because they are a somewhat diverse ethnoreligious group rather than a religious community. Dimadick (talk) 10:50, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom and above discussion. --Just N. (talk) 20:49, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename to Muslim superheroes as suggested above, that could have some significance and usefulness but Islamic superheroes is poorly worded and unclear. Dan Carkner (talk) 19:18, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename and strong keep. This category is as significant as Category:African-American superheroes. Both categories are about minorities whose portrayal in media is often controversial. There are several scholarly studies on the topic of Muslim superheroes[1][2][3] and an entire book on Muslim female superheroes. I just looked at the first four entries in the category and in each case being Muslim was treated as a significant characteristic by media:
VR talk 21:57, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The nomination is not about whether these characters were Muslim or not, the nomination is about the fact that their faith is unrelated to their occupation. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:18, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I get that. But as the sources show, their faith is quite related to the character.
    WP:CATDEF requires that sources "commonly and consistently define" a superhero as Muslim for it to belong in this category. Just looking up the first entry, Simon Baz, that seems to be the case (CBS NewsLA TimesReutersTheWeekTorWashington Post etc).VR talk 15:54, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • WP:OCEGRS says we only create intersections with religion if the intersection is a notable topic in its own right. That is not the case here. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:12, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Apache Software Foundation members

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. bibliomaniac15 18:20, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per
WP:TRIVIALCAT
)
The Apache Software Foundation was founded by software developer Ken Coar and not coincidentally this category was created by User:Coar, the Wikipedia ID of the same Ken Coar. Whatever the COI origins of this category the bigger problem is that it's not defining: the apache.org homepage says there are 820 members and the articles in this category are known for being computer programmers but not for this association, except for Mr. Coar of course. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:22, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, just membership of an organization is hardly ever defining. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:11, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Apache is not just a leisure club of rich people (where the idea of NONDEFINING would be a true claim) but a decentralized open source community of developers. The ASF is a meritocracy, implying that membership of the foundation is granted only to volunteers who have actively contributed to Apache projects. I'd suppose most stately honours (orders) that we've categorized have less meritocracy in it than ASF. I really don't see any good reasons at all to dump this category. --Just N. (talk) 18:02, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – Fayenatic London 21:18, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 02:22, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further comment, people in this category are known as free software programmers or as open source advocates and already in those categories. They are not known for their membership of the Apache Software Foundation, which becomes very obvious when reading through the articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:39, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, Marco, you're doing mostly an excellent job in category discussion but the above interjection is IMHO not helpful. This category is not about their profession as programmers and not about their ethics as open source advocates. It's not even about them as as individuals but about their membership in a meritocracy called ASF. It seems to me you have never been a member of an academy (or am I wrong?) which is an analogue: you're chosen to become a member but unless you're the president or business administrator it doesn't require much of your life time and not much space in your wikipedia article (if existing). It's your logic that is searching in the wrong paths, dear Marcocapelle. This is about society and not about individual activities! An academy wouldn't exist without its members which build its existence as a meritocracy (not economically) and ASF the same. And as surely no one wants to read in WIkipedia who is a Diner's Club member it is absolutely diffferent with meaningful academies and other meritocracies such as ASF. --Just N. (talk) 21:51, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I do not agree, this is definitely about individual activities, because categories are assigned to individual biographies. The relevance for society should result and has resulted in a topic article. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:36, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete; having read the above, I am not persuaded that membership of this body is defining. – Fayenatic London 17:08, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Football (soccer) in Niue

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. – Fayenatic London 21:37, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: rename per
WP:CFDS. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:00, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply
]
copy of speedy discussion
@
Oculi: pinging contributors to speedy discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:03, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply
]
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 10:48, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Procedural relisting per above, four of the nominated categories were not properly tagged.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 01:34, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per C2D, to match parent article name - for now. --Just N. (talk) 21:55, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
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