NEW LIARS CLUB (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore | cache | AfD))
This article was speedied per ]
- On the deletion review page, there is an instruction "Deletion Review is to be used where someone is unable to resolve the issue in discussion with the administrator (or other editor) in question. This should be attempted first – courteously invite the admin to take a second look". I haven't noticed this discussion taking place. While I'm aware that some users consider this an optional step, I would appreciate if the nominator could please explain why he omitted it (or, if there was a discussion that I missed, point it out)?
talk) 09:14, 16 February 2009 (UTC) [reply ]
Endorse deletion by default due to the nominator's failure to reply to a reasonable query. talk) 09:44, 18 February 2009 (UTC) [reply ]
- I took this to DRV because I preferred the input of uninvolved editors. AecisBrievenbus 23:05, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Better late than never, I guess. I would still weak endorse deletion because the band pretty clearly doesn't meet
talk) 00:34, 22 February 2009 (UTC) [reply ]
- Being non-sysop I cannot see the phrasing of the original claim and as such am unable to comment on the percieved claim of notability. Thus, I will comment on the above reasoning. The inheritence relation of notability here is quite weak. On the one hand, WP:MUSIC does provide the quote "Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable". On the other hand, not only does the same sentence in WP:MUSIC go on to suggest redirects, the link to other bands is not very strong here. First of all I will ignore
O.C. Supertones who played with the band at some point, though when or how much is not elaborated on in the article in question, and who is not, at the moment, notable enough to have his own article. Endorse, even taking into account the inheritence provided for in WP:MUSIC, this is not a case where such inheritence is reasonable. Usrnme h8er ( talk · contribs) 09:23, 16 February 2009 (UTC) [reply ]
- Comment: Things would come a long way if you'd start by providing references as evidence. The original article was completely unreferenced. =- Mgm|(talk) 10:27, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- To add to that... Had it had references when it was A7'ed, I would not have deleted it. CSD does not preclude recreation, so there's nothing about an A7 that prevents you from recreating a new version of the article that more clearly asserts notability and backs it up with independent, reliable sourcing. I'd be happy to see that happen. Jclemens (talk) 15:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- And for me, I agree and wouldn't mind at all, even if a cursory glance indicates to me that independent (non-inherited) notability might, as of now, be hard to find in RS. If recreated with the above mentioned notability inheritence sourced, it would be an issue for AfD, not CSD. Usrnme h8er (talk · contribs) 16:23, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually,
WP:CSD#A7 explicitly says that the indication of notability "is distinct from verifiability and reliability of sources" and that "the criterion does not apply to any article that makes any credible claim of significance or importance even if the claim is not supported by a reliable source. If the claim's credibility is unclear, you can improve the article yourself, propose deletion, or list the article at articles for deletion." The article contained a claim of notability. The sourcing of it is a matter for AFD, not CSD. AecisBrievenbus 22:59, 16 February 2009 (UTC) [reply ]
- Why are we here? As an admin, you have the capability to userify the article, improve it, and put it back. That's not wheel warring, that's simply a shortcut for what every single editor is allowed to do: try again if their article is A7'ed. However, as an admin who appears to have deleted a fair number of articles yourself, I would expect you to create articles with reliable sourcing, not come to DRV becuase the article failed
WP:MUSICBIO. If this is process for process' sake, please skip to the end and put a better and sufficient article back. Jclemens ( talk) 23:07, 16 February 2009 (UTC) [reply ]
- Actually, if you bothered to check, you would see that I didn't create the article. Yes, the article needed a fair amount of work, but that's what we've got cleanup for. CSD is for articles that clearly don't meet the strict criteria outlined in
WP:CSD. This article didn't meet any of the speedy deletion criteria. That's what we've got prod and AFD for. AecisBrievenbus 23:17, 16 February 2009 (UTC) [reply ]
- You're right, I didn't bother to check before. I now see that you declined A7 previously on the assertion that members of notable "bands" were listed, when one of the two bands was clearly not notable and its article has already been speedily deleted. I further see that the article creator is indefinitely blocked--not by me, and not at my behest--so what, exactly, is the point of undeleting it? If it were anything that was sourced or sourceable, that would be one matter. As is, the article is deleted, and would almost certainly be deleted if prodded or AfD'ed. What outcome are you looking for here? Jclemens (talk) 23:56, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That still leaves The O.C. Supertones, which in turn means that the article still contains a claim of notability. And a mere claim is enough to pass A7; a dubious claim is AFD material, not CSD material. This article doesn't meet A7 and shouldn't have been speedied. We don't speedy articles because they might possibly perhaps not survive an AFD, we only speedy articles that are clearly and blatantly not suitable. This article is not an open-and-shut case. And yes, AFD might result in the same outcome. That's always possible. But that's no reason to ignore the procedures and follow your own assumptions. AecisBrievenbus 00:52, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- So what? For DRV to overturn this, two conditions must be met: 1) A deletion process violation existed, which is disputed. 2) That the article is worth keeping. That is, a mere process infraction is insufficient to restore the article. The burden of proof is now upon you to demonstrate conclusively that the article should be kept. I don't see any point in arguing #1, when it's clear that the article isn't suitable per #2. Or, you can just go create the article again and improve it. Either way, I really don't perceive a point to this conversation at all. Jclemens (talk) 01:47, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Could you please point out where it says that "a mere process infraction is insufficient to restore the article"? The principal purpose section says that DRV "is to be used ... if the speedy deletion was done outside of the criteria established for such deletions." It doesn't say anything about your second point. And the fact of the matter is that this article didn't meet any of the speedy deletion criteria. The article contained a claim of notability. And even if that claim is unverified, unsourced, dubious and tenuous, A7 still doesn't apply. The speedy deletion criteria explicitly state that AFD is the way to go in those cases. This article should have been sent to AFD, it should not have been speedied. And yes, this DRV is about proper process. Anything wrong with that? AecisBrievenbus 22:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Can't see the article, but there if there is a claim of notability (and some one who can see it things so) it isn't a valid speedy. restore and almost certainly send to AfD as notability seems questionable. Speedy deletion is to be used with great care and any out-of-process speedy should be restored. Hobit (talk) 01:45, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd be happy to have this be the case. If someone wants to IAR unsalt and restore Saint Pancake and send it to MfD, I'd be willing to accept that a successful DRV doesn't also require article notability to be established. Failing that, I'll only reverse myself when and if someone can demonstrate that the actual article merits retention. Jclemens (talk) 23:37, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- As you are (or should be) well aware, an article can only be speedied if it meets the speedy deletion criteria. This article did not meet the speedy deletion criterion you cited (A7), since it contained a claim of notability. That means that this speedy deletion was out of process. You should have followed proper process, which is AFD or prod. If you can't understand this, you should stay out of CSD. AecisBrievenbus 22:59, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Just to clarify, I think that it's debatable if this met the CSD criteria. It wasn't an unreasonable delete by any means. But debatable is rarely a good place or speedies. Hobit (talk) 23:22, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion. There is indeed no assertion of notability in the article as it existed when deleted. There is a non-specific mention of some local gigs, a mention of the previous band of two of the members, and a reference to a myspace page. That does not meet the standards of A7 as defined. Advocates of the article should provide a referenced version. I or any other admin would be happy to userfy this one if it is needed to create a new version.
Chick Bowen 00:05, 22 February 2009 (UTC) [reply ]
- A band is notable per
WP:MUSIC if it "contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable". The claim that New Liars Club contains a member of The O.C. Supertones is therefore a claim of notability. Whether this claim is credible and sufficient is something that needs to be assessed in AFD, it's beyond the scope of CSD. AecisBrievenbus 01:09, 22 February 2009 (UTC) [reply ]
- It is not put in such clear terms in the article as it stood, in part because it's not clear that the personnel and status of this band is stable. If they are, great, but that wasn't clear in the original article. I continue to think the best route here is userfication, expansion, and reinstatement. One plus of that is that if the band really is notable and reliable sources exist, an AfD would not even be necessary. I don't really understand why you didn't just do this in the first place, rather than bring it here. Might it be, by chance, to chasten the deleting admin rather than simply improving the encyclopedia?
Chick Bowen 02:35, 22 February 2009 (UTC) [reply ]
- Why on earth would I want to chasten the deleting admin? Where is that ridiculous idea coming from? I think I deserve a bit more credit than that. AecisBrievenbus 03:05, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I thought the statement "If you can't understand this, you should stay out of CSD" was a bit strongly worded if we're assuming good faith here. But my apologies if I misinterpreted your intent.
Chick Bowen 03:10, 22 February 2009 (UTC) [reply ]
- Yes, I feel that "I don't think this is suitable for Wikipedia" is not a good argument to speedy an article. And anyone who is involved in speedy deletion should know when an article can be speedied and when it can't be, what is covered by the criteria and what isn't. But I've never called the admin's general editing skills or his/her intentions into question, only the arguments behind speedy deletions. AecisBrievenbus 03:19, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- You know, when your whole argument boils down to "process wasn't followed" (unless I'm missing something where you've said the article was notable, and not simply "improperly speedily deleted" because it contained an assertion of notability) the fact that you never bothered posting on my talk page to query me on my rationale or ask me to undelete the article before coming to DRV is ironic--I daresay it gives you ]
- So what you're basically saying is "screw the criteria, I will speedy anything I see fit"? If you are not willing to take the time and the effort to "[follow] every possibly relevant wikilink", why are you speedying articles in the first place? How can you say that an article meets the speedy criteria when you're not willing to check if it does? AecisBrievenbus 05:18, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry, but if you wanted to start this discussion, the right time was several days ago, before you decided to disregard process and bring this to DRV without engaging me first. Your paraphrasing is inaccurate and your tone is incivil, but I will be happy to accept genuine public apologies. Jclemens (talk) 05:57, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- How is my paraphrasing inaccurate? You sighed at the thought of having to "[follow] every possibly relevant wikilink ... before deciding that A7 applied". And don't hold your breath waiting for apologies, because they're not coming. AecisBrievenbus 06:02, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(outdent) I'm sorry, I should have checked earlier: you're new here. Or rather, you've been gone for so long that things may not work the way they did when you went on a seven-and-a-half month hiatus... and about 1/3rd of your edits since you've resumed using this account have been to this thread. Bearing that in mind, I'm willing to overlook your process violations and incivility. Please do take this opportunity to review current behavioral expectations, DRV process, and CSD outcomes, however. No admin who's reviewed the article, except you, has supported its recreation. No one has ever said that process isn't important, but rather than decisions that do no harm aren't candidates for reversal, even if a consensus is reached that they were incorrect. Jclemens (talk) 06:25, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry to burst your bubble here, I haven't been away. I've been using my alternate account,
talk · contribs). I recommend you change your story and talk down to me in a different way. I'm waiting for the next gem. AecisBrievenbus 06:29, 22 February 2009 (UTC) [reply ]
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