Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2016 September 8

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8 September 2016

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Karla Lane (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Closing admin clearly misapplied the applicable guideline. The closer stated there was no consensus on "whether her only award is notable, and hence whether she passes PORNBIO". However, under PORNBIO, a qualifying award must be "well-known and significant", a higher standard than merely notable; PORNBIO was tightened up in this regard four years ago. If there's no consensus that the award passes a relatively low bar, it should be evident that it fails the guideline's actual higher bar. Closing admin has refused to discuss
The delete !votes in this discussion were substantially more numerous, better argued, and better grounded in policy and guidelines. The keep !votes, to the extent they had any grouding, pretty uniformly rested on the argument that meeting any part of PORNBIO "automatically" guaranteed the subject an article. This contradicts express language in WP:BIO, which PORNBIO is part of, saying that technically passing an SNG "does not guarantee that a subject should be included". !Votes which contradict the governing guideline should be discounted, especially when they are in the clear minority. Finally, the keep !~voters made only trivial attempts, at best, to rebut the argument that, as a BLP without adequate reliable sourcing, the article should be deleted. BLP policy overrides a marginal pass of a dubious SNG. See Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 December 26 (Jayden James), which presents essentially the same issues, where the community strongly endorsed deletion, as well as the similar, quite recent, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kristina Rose. Clear failure to meet GNG and BLP sourcing requirements overrides a heavily disputed claim to technically pass an SNG, especially one the community shows little confidence in. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by administrators since 2006. (talk) 11:40, 8 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • I find it hard to believe that you don't understand my comment. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 01:47, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I understand your comment perfectly well. The first sentence is about your knowledge of other DRV discussions. The second misunderstands the nature of deletion review. We are discussing whether the close accurately reflected the policy-based comments in the discussion. It is not the place to say anything new about whether the article should be deleted. And the third is simply a generic insult that could be applied to anyone who starts a deletion review. None of those sentences in any way contributes to the discussion of the issue at hand here. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 17:34, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • And even though your third sentence is irrelevant, I'll still give an answer in the interests of collegiality. I want this to be deleted because it is an article about a living person that is not written on the basis of reliable sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. 86.17.222.157 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:48, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to delete per most of the above. I find the arguments that the single award in question is 'major' are unconvincing, and that was the only thing saving this article from an outright deletion already. Jclemens (talk) 07:47, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and delete. It is a fact that the award has not been demonstrated to be notable, and so the close is at fault to cite the possibility that the award is notable. That there "is a split", aka "a dispute" is just a reflection of die-hard supporters of the long since discredited PORNBIO guideline section voraciously arguing in support of WP:BLP and WP:NOTDIRECTORY violating porn starlet stubs. Discrediting the failed arguments, there is a consensus to delete. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:53, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and delete Regardless of the fact that no-one provided any evidence that the award was "well-known and significant" in any way, it's simply a BLP that fails GNG. Given that practically all the Keep votes were based on this unproven claim of the award's significance, this is an easy Delete. I also note that if you take this and the other two linked AfDs above, every single Keep vote apart from one came from the same pool of six editors. I suspect this means that to delete most porn performer articles, you need at least ten people who believe it's not suitable for Wikipedia. This isn't how discussions should work. Black Kite (talk) 15:08, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • ... or you need an admin willing to close correctly per V and BLP regardless of the numbers involved in whatever discussion happens. Jclemens (talk) 01:21, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • You've hit the nail on the head there. The idea seems to have taken hold at AfD, and among many admins, that notability is the only game in town. If
        WP:BLP policy (which insists on a high standard of verifiability) was understood to be more important than any notability guideline, as it is, then we wouldn't have the problem of articles about living people being kept when there are no reliable sources available with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 17:42, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply
        ]
  • Overturn and delete - I was one of the "!deleters" and with good reason - The article did quite simply fail GNG and it shouldn't of been closed as NC at all. –Davey2010Talk 21:53, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, just to check, you all did notice that this article has actual sources, including a rather relevant interview about issues in the porn industry published in a mainstream location? To claim that there are "no sources" or
    WP:V. I feel like our porn discussions are basically a lot of people on both sides not actually caring about the actuality of the sources or article, just !voting to keep or delete because it is a porn article. Black Kite's comments about the keep !voter's is certainly true (and frankly, I strongly suspect some of those folks are paid editors), but the delete !voters are also generally coming from a fairly small group (though much larger than the keep !voters and I very much doubt _they_ are being paid). Hobit (talk) 16:12, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • I don't think anyone could blame you for that. I think this one could have been closed as delete, but NC was a reasonable reading. Welcome to the crossfire of someone else's war. Hobit (talk) 17:40, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The only reliable source cited in the article is The Daily Dot, and its coverage starts with the words "Porn star Karla Lane told the Daily Dot...", so the coverage is simply quoting her and is not independent. The only thing that it verifies is that Ms Lane said those words, not that those words are true. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 16:40, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yep, it's the old question about if an interview counts as a RS for WP:N. And if you read out essays on the topic, the answer is "generally yes it does". And _this_ interview is about her experiences and opinions. At the very least we know what she's said are her experiences and opinions. And if you read the piece it is significantly more than a fluff interview. Plus there are other sources that, while not mainstream, are independent of the subject. And mainstream isn't a requirement for being a reliable source... Hobit (talk) 17:38, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reliable sources are characterised by a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Do you really believe that any of the other sources have such a reputation? They are promotional web sites for the porn industry, which have a reputation for peddling fantasy, especially when writing about individual performers, rather than fact. Our dear leader got it right when he compared the content of such sites to kayfabe. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 18:41, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've not got the first clue if, XBiz or "the porn corporation" are RSes, though I'd tend to guess that they get things right in their field of interest. Do you have some knowledge otherwise, or are you just assuming because they cover porn, they are likely not reliable? And the Daily Dot is reliable. Hobit (talk) 02:32, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any ideas on Porn Corporation? Hobit (talk) 12:06, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks, I'm a bit loath to do research on such things from work for obvious reasons. Still, we have one solid source, so
    WP:V issues are met and SNG arguments are perfectly reasonable. So I stand by my endorse, though deletion would also have been a reasonable read of consensus. Hobit (talk) 12:43, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.