Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bob Windle

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 22:04, 28 October 2008 [1].

Bob Windle

Nominator(s): YellowMonkey (click here to chose Australia's next top model!)

I'm nominating this article for featured article because I think it satisfies

WP:WIAFA. The subject is a four-time Olympic medalist, the highlight being gold in the 1500m free at the 1964 Olympics for Australia. YellowMonkey (click here to chose Australia's next top model!) 07:45, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

Giggy's comments

  • "1500 m freestyle" - should there be a space between the distance and the unit - I've never seen it written like this (that I can recall) before. Applies throughout.
Heh. Tony told me to put a space on my first FAC -
Thorpey. It's correct. YellowMonkey (click here to chose Australia's next top model!) 07:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply
]
  • In the first/second sentence you could add a bit more context by saying they're medals (and linking to a relevant article?)
I could but I think it will get unlinked in the common words sweep pretty soon. I think everyone understands the context.YellowMonkey (click here to chose Australia's next top model!) 07:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in all freestyle distances from 100 m to 1500 m" - I'd end the sentence at "distances"
Actually the range needs to be specified because nowadays they had the 50m freestyle which is for flat-out sprinters, which endruance swimmers can't do. In those days they didnt have that. YellowMonkey (click here to chose Australia's next top model!) 07:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "racing the 100 m and 200 m freestyle and the corresponding relays, having completed his transition to sprinting" - .... those are swimming races, yet you say he was sprinting (previous sentence too), or am I just confused?
Sprinting means short distances, not explicitly running on two feet. YellowMonkey (click here to chose Australia's next top model!) 07:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Of course... I can't believe I didn't pick up on that. I'd suggest you make it a bit clearly that you mean short distance swimming the first time you use the word (maybe "from distance swimming to sprinting" --> "from long to short distance "sprinting"") as I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought of running first. Well, I hope I'm not. Giggy (talk) 07:23, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • No image of any sort available?
Found two images of the Olympic pools he swam in. A bit corny, but there you are. YellowMonkey (click here to choose Australia's next top model) 04:03, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Giggy (talk) 09:12, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Some numbers aren't spelt out (eg. 12), some are (eg. fifteen)... noticed this in the early years section but check throughout
fixed. YellowMonkey (click here to chose Australia's next top model!) 07:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Windle as the "greyhound"" --> "as a "greyhound""?
clarified. YellowMonkey (click here to chose Australia's next top model!) 07:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "17 m 37.7 s" --> "17.37" or something like that? I dunno what the mos says on this.
Kept the min s format per always. YellowMonkey (click here to chose Australia's next top model!) 07:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Rose returned to the United States, and at the 1963 Australian Championships, Windle..." - the connection between the two clauses is a bit odd... I'd just not mention Rose here.
Reworded. YellowMonkey (click here to chose Australia's next top model!) 07:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "narrowly defeated him in a touch finish" - a bit redundant; clearly a touch finish is narrow (and vice versa), so cut a bit off
Done. YellowMonkey (click here to chose Australia's next top model!) 07:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Giggy (talk) 09:27, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support with all concerns addressed. Giggy (talk) 07:27, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:37, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments — A good article for the most part. It needs a thorough copyedit, however. Some examples from the lead and the "Early years" section:
  • First sentence seems a tad long and hard to read.
  • He won his first national title in 1961 with victory in the 1650 yd freestyle, and won the 220–440–1650 yd treble in 1962. - Does it need "with victory"?
  • Could you write a tad about his early/personal life in the lead?
  • The infobox says he was born on 7 November 1944, but the article mentions nothing of this.
  • In the first paragraph of the "Early years" section, some of your numbers above 10 are spelled out, while others aren't.
  • A turning point for Windle was the 1960 Australian Championships; he came second in the 1650 yd freestyle behind John Konrads and was selected for the 1960 Summer Olympics in Rome. - "Came in" → "placed".
  • He then dropped out of high school to attend a three-month training camp in Queensland with the Olympic swimming team. - "Then" is redundant.
  • Windle did not swim in Rome, with team officials merely wanting him to learn from the routine and atmosphere of Olympic swimming. - This would read more clearly as: "Windle did not swim in Rome; team officials merely wanted him to learn from the routine and atmosphere of Olympic swimming.
  • On his return to Australia, he switched to the tutelage of Don Talbot, who also coached Konrads. - "On" → "Upon".
  • He was known to do twice as much pre-season training as the other swimmers in Talbot's squad. "Known to do" isn't encyclopedic language. Maybe "Known to complete"?

Cheers, –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 16:27, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Did all of these instances. YellowMonkey (click here to chose Australia's next top model!) 07:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
When I find time, I'll review some more of the article later, though I have one quick question at the moment. Is "However, his victory was overshadowed by a suit malfunction that caused his bathers to partly fall off while he was racing" notable enough to warrant inclusion? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It was the main talking point according to the source. YellowMonkey (click here to choose Australia's next top model) 02:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, that's fine then. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 12:48, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Aside from needing a copyedit, for me the article is not resourceful enough, It uses few sources, although has enough citations which suggests to me the subject has not been researched as thoroughly as one would expect for our best work on wikipedia. There must surely be articles on him in the newspaper archives in Melbourne and Sydney

talk) 18:03, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

Well, I've scraped out everything in the resources attached, and I've managed to scrap out three more sources and whatever info is in them. I don't know what you think is missing. I have included the results of every Olympic, Commonwealth and Aus Championship race that he competed in. Unfortunately the electronic archives (subscribers only) only goes back 20 years, so the
Sydney Morning Herald can't be used yet. YellowMonkey (click here to chose Australia's next top model!) 07:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply
]
This oppose is somewhat unactionable. What more is needed, exactly? Cheers, –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 12:38, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Scraped out some more by Talbot. YellowMonkey (click here to choose Australia's next top model) 02:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Bert Trautmann, a recently promoted FA, uses photos of important locations in his life to make up for the fact that it has no photos of him. Are there any appropriate photos of important locations involving Windle, like one of Toyko, for example? The picture situation is always difficult for people from this era. I'm skipping my usual prose review for now because this has enough commentary already. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Found two images of the Olympic pools he swam in. A bit corny, but there you are. YellowMonkey (click here to choose Australia's next top model) 04:03, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Images all free images, however:
    • Image:Yoyogi Gymnasium.jpg licensed on commons as cc-by-2.5, while the original image at Flickr is licensed with cc-by-2.0 (generic). Change the license on commons to reflect this.
Done YellowMonkey (click here to chose Australia's next top model!) 03:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - First, nice job on the images, though the one Flickr photo needs a license adjustment, as Mr. Fuchs said. Now for the article itself...

  • "During his career, Windle set six world records, won six Commonwealth Games gold medals and 19 Australian Championships in all distances from 200 yd up to 1650 yd." Sentence looks off to me, perhaps because and doesn't come before won. Also, is up needed, seeing as a similar statement earlier doesn't use it?
  • This one caused some confusion, and I apologize for not making my beef clearer. To understand why I don't like this, it's necessary to read the whole sentence out loud. If you do that, you may find that the transition after the comma is what I see wrong. What I want is to see a connecting word (and) added after "set six world records,". Giants2008 (17-14) 23:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Tweaked for the better I think. YellowMonkey (click here to choose Australia's next top model!) 01:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maiden national title and international medals: "His quest to sweep all of the freestyle events failed when David Dickson defeated him in a touch finish in the 110 yd race." I'd like to see "touch finish" defined for those who may not understand its definition.
  • Olympic gold: Delink United States here.
  • "This meant that the Australians were the second fastest qualifier for the finals." Hyphen for second fastest? If so, check for other similar uses.
Tony1 said not to do so, so accordingly, all are hyphenless. YellowMonkey (click here to choose Australia's next top model!) 01:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If Tony told you that, I'm fine with it. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although made up 1.8 s on the Japanese anchor swimmer..." "He" did? :-) Maybe insert after first word.
  • US college career: "After the Olympics, Windle enrolled at Indiana University-coached by Doc Counsilman-on a swimming scholarship." Sounds like he coached the whole university. Perhaps move something around to fix this.
  • Why is Business capitalized?
  • "as hed did in long-course swimming."
  • International farewell: The actual name of the NCAA championship is the
    NCAA Men's Swimming and Diving Championships
    , not the NCAA spelled out. (Though it should be spelled out as part of the above)
Done, YellowMonkey (click here to choose Australia's next top model!) 01:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "men's teams titles for the university." Is teams correct? Seems like a lot of plurals for one spot.
  • "Wenden was saved and pulled from the water after Windle noticed this." Reverse the order of the events. He wasn't saved until after he was removed from the pool.
  • "Windle was usually regarded as the fittest and hard-working member of the Australian swimming team." Hardest is probably the word you're looking for.
  • Current ref 16 shouldn't be in all caps. Giants2008 (17-14) 19:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've tweaked these. YellowMonkey (click here to chose Australia's next top model!) 03:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I've neer gotten to see your articles at FAC YM, but this one's great. —Ceranthor(Sing) 20:03, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • About to give it a quick run-through, but everything seems to be in order. Support, any edits I will make will be superficial. Daniel (talk) 03:16, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • My comments are all struck, and I do believe it meets the comprehensiveness criterion, if only just. Therefore, I support. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'm currently copyediting the article a bit, but I got stuck at this sentence, which I'm having trouble understanding: The quartet won their heat and qualified fastest, with the Americans second with their second-choice team. Is it possible to reword that? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support, with my concerns addressed, and some copyediting. It might help to get someone new to the article to run through it with a fine-toothed comb, but it looks good for the most part. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 12:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I enjoyed reading this article. I have made a few edits to fix a few problems with the prose, but on the whole this is a beautifully written piece. I know next to nothing about the subject, (well more than I did this morning), but it seems comprehensive. Well done.

Talk 20:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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