Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Fabula Nova Crystallis Final Fantasy/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 01:57, 24 July 2015 [1].

Fabula Nova Crystallis Final Fantasy

Nominator(s): ProtoDrake (talk) 10:06, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Fabula Nova Crystallis Final Fantasy is a subseries within the Final Fantasy franchise, primarily produced and published by Square Enix. It features games from multiple genres developed by different teams within the company and set in multiple separate settings, but they are all tied together by the use of a single mythos. This makes the series something of an oddity for both Square Enix and video game series in general. Aside from that, there are very few commonalities, so gameplay images would be redundant. All the references have been archived to the best of my ability. The article was made a GA in May 2014. It has undergone a peer review, and undergone copyediting based on both suggestions from that review and my own judgement concerning the article. ProtoDrake (talk) 10:06, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

--

Comments by SnowFire

Nice work as usual, ProtoDrake.

Year of inception 2006

I see you started a Wikiproject talk section on this topic, but I'm not sure if this makes sense to be in the infobox, or is correctly named if so. Isn't this really "year of announcement?" For all we know it was conceived in 1998 as a twinkle in Nomura's eye. And since when does this even matter that much? Do we care what year exactly Richard Garriot started thinking about ideas that would become the Ultima series?

Of the six announced titles in the series, XV is the only one yet to be released.

Seems kind of a backward phrasing. "As of 2015, five titles have been released in the series, and a 6th title, Final Fantasy XV, is in production" perhaps?

The settings, continuities and plots of the games are unrelated to each other

Nitpicking: I'd think that FF13 / FF13-2 / FF13-3 would be somewhat related to each other? For all that talking about "continuity" is a bit of a mess with FF13-2's time travel nonsense and how it totally ignores the Pulse plotline of FF13.

Nomura stated that he wanted something that the majority of people would note and appreciate

...the source says the reverse, though. ("people all around the world won’t be able to understand") Typo?

it was decided to build upon the idea of multiple games connected by a single theme... Whereas the common link in the Compilation was VII, the team chose to focus on "the tale of new crystals", with the themes and mythos connecting the games rather than an overarching narrative.

Not sure if this is one of those "lost in translation" things or the creators are just flakes, but... wat. What does "focusing" on the title even mean here? New Crystals might be mythos to a degree, but it sure isn't a theme. Was the source material this incoherent and we're just reflecting that?

Nomura created a real-world setting in XV, referring far less to the mythos' terminology

"real-world setting" could use some clarification or rewording - checking the FF15 article, I get the impression that this means "modern, contemporary technology" in the setting, but Lucis & Tenebrae sure don't sound like real world countries, nor do countries in the real world have a giant crystal and near-death experiences don't grant magical powers.

In a 2007 interview, Hashimoto compared the planning of the Fabula Nova Crystallis series to film franchises such as Star Wars and The Lord of the Rings.[75]

Good for him. I would describe my own work as a cross between "Citizen Kane" and "Vertigo" myself, with a touch of "Blade Runner." Do we seriously want to let the producers do the comparisons for us? This seems like the kind of comment that's only appropriate from a neutral third party reviewer. I mean, it's one thing to say "we were inspired by series X" but this is just bragging about how epic this is gonna be.

The title change also resulted in the "XIII" numeral being dropped from the series title due to lack of continued relevance.

Not sure if "relevance" is the right word here. "lack of accuracy" perhaps?

all three XIII games would receive digital-only PC ports.[5]

Is "digital-only" even needed? Nobody except Blizzard sells hard-copies these days in the PC market. Everything is on Steam / b.net / Origin / GOG / etc. I guess it's a harmless extra 2 words, but just seems it might imply something unusual when it isn't anymore.

As early as 2007, Square Enix considered re-branding Versus XIII as the next numbered entry

Mega-nitpick: "a numbered entry in the main series" perhaps? "Next" is weird since FF14 would be the next entry.

was eventually announced for a western released as a high-definition port to the same platforms as XV with the idea of boosting console sales prior to the latter's release.

I see this is in the source, so I guess it's fine. But, there wouldn't happen to be a source pointing out that this is crazypants megalomania talk? If not, oh well. (In the uncitable opinion of this Wikipedia editor, good luck with that, Tabata, if you think a PSP port is going to sell PS4s, but I suppose I'm not a source. I guess the article does say later that Type-0 HD sold poorly, which might suffice.).

For these games, Japanese developer tri-Ace was brought in to help with the games' design and graphics.

Is it worth pointing out that tri-Ace went bust afterward somewhere?

Lightning Returns had lower first-week sales than its predecessors, but still topped the sales charts in Japan, selling over 277,000 units in its first week and over 404,000 copies by the end of 2013.

I was under the impression that Lightning Returns had hugely disappointing sales compared to its budget and the expectations set for it, with Square going on a mea culpa tour after both FFX HD & Bravley Default outsold LR. (Which also led to tri-Ace disbanding.) Is that correct? There some way to say "LR sold well compared to most games, but failed to meet the high expectations for a big budget, highly-promoted game?" SnowFire (talk) 20:41, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@SnowFire:, I've addressed most to all of the issues you raised (Particular thing I feel I want to mentioned: the Hashimoto quote about the series' planning was about how several titles were planned in advance around a large overall concept, which has been better defined). Just one thing I want to mention: a; nothing was ever said about what caused tri-Ace to fall on hard times, or about anything concerning SEQX "going on a mea culpa tour" about them. Besides This is a general series article, after all, so verifiable fine detail belongs on an individual subject's article. --ProtoDrake (talk) 21:43, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the changes looked good to me in your edit, thanks.
Yeah, I do agree it's difficult to balance just how specific to get. Anyway, it's already linked in the article as a source ("FFXIII beginnings"), but http://www.usgamer.net/articles/where-final-fantasy-went-wrong-and-how-square-enix-is-righting-it explicitly talks about Bravely Default outselling FF13LR and how Kitase was asking for input on what worked in LR, what didn't, etc. You already mention the "much ado about nothing" quote on FNC from it, but the sales issue seems relevant too. This might be the article misleading me, but I got the impression that it wasn't just Parrish (the author) ragging on FNC, but also Kitase? Not sure. (If Kitase agreed, it would make it something of a "mea culpa..." usual disclaimer that we shouldn't take 1 article's claims as gospel, of course.) Another source on LR's sales compared to other FF games is at http://gearnuke.com/final-fantasy-xx-2-hd-outsells-lightning-returns-life-date-sales-japan-just-two-weeks/ . Not 100% sure this is the best source, but http://venturebeat.com/2014/07/28/bravely-defaults-1m-copies-sold-reveals-why-it-has-square-enix-is-reconsidering-its-final-fantasy-strategy/ has Matsuda's comments to a Japanese newspaper. It seems Matsuda doesn't refer to LR directly, but merely vaguely talks about neglecting their core audience with it merely implied that it was LR (/Hitman Absolution?) being referred to. To be clear I don't want to make the article a hit piece on LR or anything, just as it happens we do have sources on how FNC/LR underperformed a bit compared to expectations, so if there's going to be a sales section, it seems reasonable to mention it, even briefly.
If there aren't any sources tying tri-Ace's sale to FNC, then that's fine of course. Merely something I wondered about, I'll assume you know more about the topic.
Support. (Although I'd still like some more details/explanation on LR's sales per above, ideally.) SnowFire (talk) 22:16, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Once again, it's amazing how much detail you are able to find on these video game topics, over 150 references from reliable sources, and very nicely structured. Great job! Judgesurreal777 (talk) 00:08, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by PresN
  • The sentence in the lead starting "A subseries stemming" is pretty long and rambling- try splitting it in two.
  • "their respective teams used ideas and concepts from development to create additional games" - "concepts from development" seems to be missing "their" or something
  • "Those released in Japan and the west have generally received a positive reception and high sales" - given that none of the games have been released not in Japan or the west, I think this sentence isn't saying what you want it to. Only the games released in NA have high reception? They all do? The sentence also implies that the three XIII games aren't included in that first "positive reception" statement, but they too were released in Japan/the west.
  • "as a PlayStation 3 exclusive on December 17, 2009, while it was released" - while implies a contemporaneous relationship, but in this case the second half of this statement happened 3 months later.
  • "It was released as a digital download" - ambiguous: is "it" FF13? or FF13International?
  • "was released worldwide across March 2015" - across? Just "in" would work better
  • "features a real-time action RPG" - features, or "is a"? Either way, you use "feature" twice within a few words of each other
  • "mini-games and other similar features" - the other features aren't "similar" to what you've listed, so maybe "traditional features" would work better
  • The thought strikes me that, since all these games have their own articles, maybe you could drop the exact dates? Just have, say, the month/year that the games were released in each region? It may reduce some of the listy-ness of the Games section; the tons of dates makes it feel a little overwhelming. Same goes for the Related Media section.
  • "magazine titled Final Fantasy XIII Reminiscence: tracer of memories, was released" - no comma
  • "All the stories were later released online" -ambiguous; just the 3-part novella? Or all the stories mentioned in this whole paragraph?
  • "It became publication in the November 2011"
  • You mention the Type-0 l'Cie being branded, but not that XIII l'Cie get a brand as well?
  • "as Latin was no longer a widely spoken language and had gained a sense of mystery because of this." - bit odd to end the sentence with the prepositional phrase; maybe "and had therefore gained a sense of mystery."?
  • Stopping there for now; will get to the second half of the article soon. --PresN 18:27, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Wondering where to go after the completion of Final Fantasy XII, it was decided" - who was wondering? also, cut out the passive "it was decided" - Square Enix/whoever "decided".
  • "Whereas the common link in the Compilation was VII, the team chose to use "the tale of new crystals", with the mythos connecting the games rather than an overarching narrative" - what team, and you dropped an implied "the new series" from the sentence that the team chose to use "the tale" for.
  • "Another key idea behind the mythos was to ease the production of future Final Fantasy games by providing an established mythos" - double mythos
  • It took Nojima a year to write the mythos; do you know when that year was? 2003? Even if you don't, might be useful back at the start of "Creation" to mention that "while Final Fantasy X-2 and the original Kingdom Hearts were being completed" is 2002/03 or so, so we have an explicit frame of reference for what time period we're talking about.
  • Oh, I see, you say the mythos finished up by the start of 04 in the next section. Yeah, try to mention that a bit earlier so readers aren't wondering for a couple paragraphs.
  • "The original titles were XIII and Versus XIII" - jarred me a bit; maybe "The original titles in the series were XIII and Versus XIII
  • "with Agito XIII being a mobile phone title" - "being" is such a milquetoast, awkward verb construction, and you use it twice in this sentence. Just say "with Agito XIII described as a mobile phone title"
  • "with each supporting and future game being a "facet" of XIII" - totally misread this when I first hit it, as I thought "each" referred back to XIII/Versus, so the "and" threw me. Maybe "with future games each being a "facet" of XIII"
  • "as it "would have been an issue."" - period outside the quote, as it's not a full sentence being quoted
  • "there was speculation that the subseries would end with Lightning Returns" - as in, the XIII subseries? If so, "room for further titles beyond the XIII universe" doesn't make sense, since they would need to be in the XIII universe to be in that subseries.
  • "into multiple games "probably worked out just as well."[80]" - period outside the quote
  • "The layout of the mythos and its terms received mixed reactions" - layout is an odd word choice, though I can't think offhand what would be better
  • "are handled in much more interesting ways."[129]" - period outside quote
  • "Other aspects that came in for criticism, such as uneven aspects" - the sentence never makes it to a verb- drop the "that"
  • "Parish felt that the initial backlash" - remind readers who he is, it's been 4 paragraphs since you last mentioned that reviewer
  • "Type-0 sold 472,253 units" - this is the only sales number in this section to get this level of arbitrary precision; cut to "over 472,000 units" or something.
  • " its debut week, selling 93,000, though" - 93,000 copies/units
  • You say Type-0 HD ultimately did poorly, then the next sentence say it sold over a million units worldwide- did you mean that it did poorly in Japan?
That's all! I may swing back and give you a source review later, if you don't get one from someone else- right now the idea of parsing through 180 references fills me with dread. --PresN 19:40, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@PresN: Done everything there. Thanks hugely. If there's anything else, let me know. --ProtoDrake (talk) 20:06, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support - made a further minor tweak, but I'm fine with the article prose now. Good job on getting to all those so quickly; good luck with the rest of the nomination! --PresN 20:36, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • A single image is used, which is a fair use image with a proper template. It has no problems, though some could argue it is slightly too large. It is on the verge, but I don't think it's a problem. FunkMonk (talk) 09:37, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Source Review: Passed.

Ref formatting
  • It looks like your not supplying publishers, even for magazine-based websites, unless the source itself is a magazine issue. If this is not true, then you need to add publishers to the magazine-based website sources, like Famitsu online and Edge online.
  • Ref 6 - title has a lowercase And, should be italicized as CVG is a magazine.
  • Ref 19,30,37,56,65,68,75,179,180- (in Japanese)
  • Ref 35 not archived, and if DualShockers is reliable (which it appears to be), please consider getting it flagged as such at
    WP:VG/RS
I don't believe it's reliable.
WP:VG/RS#GameRanx_and_DualShockers – czar 16:46, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply
]
@
Czar:, I've addressed your concern, and (I think) I've removed DualShockers from the article. --ProtoDrake (talk) 17:47, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply
]
✓ looks good – czar 17:59, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 53- Studio Bentstuff edited/created the book, but Square Enix published it
  • Ref 55- no need to list "Edge Staff" as the authors, since that's assumed
  • Ref 58 also needs a publisher, and the formatting is different than ref 53
  • Ref 61- allcaps, link publisher, format isbn the same as the other books
  • Ref 66- it's
    USGamer
    , like EuroGamer, no .com
  • Ref 67- is PSPHyper an RS? Never heard of it (though I don't have a PSP)
  • Ref 71- wired in italics
  • Ref 72- similar issues to refs 53,58
  • Ref 73- issue? issn? publisher?
  • Ref 84- no staff, no italics
  • Ref 100- no .com
  • Ref 130- this is from Dengeki, not ASCII, yeah?
  • Ref 167- caps, source (Geimin)
  • Ref 170- ALLCAPS
    • Publisher thing was a deliberate design choice as I have not had problems with that in previous FA reviews, and all other issues I think addressed. And as for Ref 73, I can't find any other details about that issue and there's not much said about the magazine from the research I've done, which is why I included the link to the translation. --ProtoDrake (talk) 20:51, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Spotchecks
  • Forthcoming. --PresN 16:49, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Checked 12 different sources throughout the article (all usages of each); all came back clean. --PresN 03:02, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Maky

I'm actually playing FFXIII for the first time in my non-existent spare time, so what the heck...

  • "...is a series of games developed and published by Square Enix. Fabula Nova Crystallis is a series of games..." – A bit redundant
  • "The mythos can be freely interpreted by the teams developing the games." – I didn't catch the meaning and/or significance upon my initial read. It's later explained in the body, but in the lead, it needs a bit more for clarification.
  • 2nd paragraph in lead, "conceived" used as the verb in two consecutive sentences ... just sounds redundant
  • "It is set for a western release in April 2015..." – Any update on this?
  • "XIII was worked on by team members who had also worked on..." – Maybe change one "worked on" to "developed"?
  • "Type-0 HD‍ '​s development was handled by Japanese studio HexaDrive." – This feels like it was just slopped onto the end of the paragraph. Why not work it into the second sentence?

Everything else looks good to me. Just fix the readability issues, and you'll have my support. – Maky « talk » 06:05, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I attended to everything. Thanks for the comments. --ProtoDrake (talk) 09:10, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
All the changes looked good except for the one about the western release in 2015. Without changing sources, you changed the tense to say that it was released. Do you have a source that confirms the release? – Maky « talk » 00:34, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Whoops! I just rechecked the source given, and it says a July release. So sorry. I can't think what I was thinking when I put that in. This is the source in question if you wish to clarify. --ProtoDrake (talk) 09:20, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support – Good thing we caught that. As long as all other points made by other reviewers are covered and it has passed its source and image review, it looks good to me. – Maky « talk » 18:31, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Darkwarriorblake

Reading the article and the preceding comments I don't have a lot to add but I'll add my two cents:

  • As someone not really familiar with the Final Fantasy series of games, I get the impression that these are games in the Final Fantasy series but more explicitly related or tied together? If so, the Final Fantasy series and these games being a part of it does not seem to be mentioned at all in the lead. As stated I have a loose knowledge of the series, but the article seems to move into naming individual titles and their returning creators, but for someone with even less knowledge about the games than I, I think a link to the franchise would be useful here as well as an explanation that it is a subset of that series.
  • I've put a mention in the lead, and added a little something in the production section.
  • Have the games won any accolades that require mentioning?
  • None that stand out. XIII is the only one that was awarded anything, and one game's awards seems too insignificant within the scope of a series to add to the lead.
  • Only a personal preference and wouldn't affect promotion, but is there a good image(s) of the creative minds behind the games that could be added? One would suffice in the production section, but again this isn't a necessity, only do it if you feel like it.
  • I don't think it's really necessary to add it. There are images of Kitase and Toriyama availabe, but they don't seem to have had such an effect on the mythos as a whole as Hashimoto or Nojima.
Support - Perfect, it's a small change but I think it really helps understanding of your non-expert (i.e. me), I only really could tell it was about that series because of later game mentions and I recognize the art work. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 15:11, 11 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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