Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Thomas Müller/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 02:35, 19 September 2011 [1].

Thomas Müller

Thomas Müller (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): ArtVandelay13 (talk) 11:27, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've nominated this artlce before, and it failed largely due to the number of references from Müller's club, Bayern Munich. I've replaced most of these, and in addition the article has better images, plus expanded personal information. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 11:27, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:31, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • What makes this a high-quality
    reliable source? This
    ?
Trust me, transfermarkt is the most reliable source out there. 188.169.22.145 (talk) 14:12, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No offence, but I'm looking for a stronger rationale than "trust me". Nikkimaria (talk) 14:48, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
transfermarkt.de is a very reliable source. It belongs to the
Heyit's meI am dynamite 15:04, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply
]
I would agree on removing that image. It slows down the page load time significantly. 188.169.22.145 (talk) 08:46, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I think all non-English titles should be translated and written in trans_title of cite web template. 188.169.22.145 (talk) 12:59, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 13:40, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support Only two concerns: "Raul scores, ones, Neuer stopps everything - Bayern knocked out", "Gomez and Müller a good partnership" - these translations are terrible. 188.169.22.145 (talk) 14:17, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: this IP has been blocked as a sockpuppet of the blocked User:Taro-Gabunia. Ucucha (talk) 20:49, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK, changed. The first one was just a load of typos because I was adding so many; the second I couldn't find a useful translation for 'kongenial' (they don't mean friendly). ArtVandelay13 (talk) 14:30, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Gomez and Müller a symbiotic partnership" - this translation still doesn't make sense. 188.169.22.145 (talk) 15:31, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Any suggestions then? ArtVandelay13 (talk) 15:33, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't get the point of that sentence. Does it mean that Muller and Gomez fit each other well? (they play well when they are on the pitch together) 188.169.22.145 (talk) 15:36, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I take it to mean that they combined well in that particular match. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 15:42, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment What about adding assists statistic from ESPN? 188.169.22.145 (talk) 15:36, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unlike say ice hockey, there's no defined method of counting assists, so such figures inevitably vary by source. As a result, the consensus within WikiProject Football is that assists should not be included in tables of statistics. Oldelpaso (talk) 18:34, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, but I think ESPN is a quite reliable source. 188.169.22.145 (talk) 20:56, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comment Not an easy one to review, as Müller has only really been active for two seasons. This doesn't make it any less eligible, but does (perhaps unavoidably) make it harder to feel a sense of depth when reading the article. Nevertheless, as a summary of his career so far, it does a good job.

  • While it is mentioned in the Personal life section that Pähl is in Bavaria, the early career section could do with some wording making it clear that Bayern Munich are the nearest Bundesliga club to Müller's birthplace.
  • Done. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 15:10, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Playing style section - its never an easy thing to source, but I always feel compelled to ask: What are the weaker areas of Müller's game? Perhaps Robben made criticisms during their spat?
    • I'd love seeing it but I think it's impossible to source. 188.169.22.145 (talk) 20:54, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • It wasn't that kind of spat, but even if it was, would we put that weight behind something said in the heat of the moment? I've included a sentence about some of Müller's weaker areas. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 14:52, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • regular fixtures - not sure this one parses. A fixture, or a regular selection, but not both at the same *Noticing some passive tense in the article that could be reworded to sound more direct, e.g. Müller had scored four goals and made two assists during the competition.
  • He was philosophical about this dip in form, though - could do with a direct quote to support this.
    • The quote is in the ref, I don't think it can be fitted in neatly, and I feel this summary works best. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 14:52, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Müller's success in the World Cup was as part of a group of young players (Ozil, Khedira) that earned plaudits, so a sentence about how the team as a whole was viewed could be a useful addition. Oldelpaso (talk) 19:29, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – *Breakthrough season: "Muller credits Van Gaal for having the biggest part to play in his rise to success - the coach had arrived...". Hyphen in the middle should be an en dash, for good formatting and consistency in the article.

  • 2010–11 season: Keep an eye out for long, winding sentences like this: "He was philosophical about this dip in form, though, and after eight league games without a goal, he scored in a 4–1 win against Eintracht Frankfurt on 27 November, and again in consecutive league and cup wins against VfB Stuttgart three weeks later, talking (should be taking) his tally to eight goals in all competitions, including a spectacular goal to open the scoring in a 2–0 Champions League victory against Roma on 15 September." That could easily be three sentences, and it's all jammed into one overly long one.
  • 2010 World Cup: Another en dash needed to replace a hyphen in "against Spain - Muller said that he felt far more nervous...".
  • Should the last word in "as Germany won 3–2 to take the bronze medals" be the singular "medal"?
  • References that are to newspapers and magazines should have the publisher italicized. I see a bunch of cites to Kicker and The Guardian, among others, that need such edits. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 19:36, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. 50.19.78.29 (talk) 23:25, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
'medals' is correct - it's a team game. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 08:23, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I think the article is very good, without suffering from recentism or unnecessary detail, which is true for a lot of football articles unfortunately . Some suggestions:

  • The first two sentences of the second paragraph of the lead could be added to the very short first paragraph. I think it would fit better that way.
    • Done.
      • Actually what I meant was to keep two paragraphs, starting the second with "A product of Bayern's youth system...", but it's really not a big deal
  • 'Golden Boot' should possibly be explained in the lead
    • Done.
  • "30 mile journey " shouldn't this be given in metric units?
    • Done.
  • Either British or American English. "Honours" in the infobox, but "Honors" as a section headline. The Talk Page claims the article only uses AE, but wouldn't he then be a soccer player, not a "footballer", also "centre of media attention" certainly is not AE. In general, British English seems like the much more logical choice for this article to be honest.
    • I don't know why it was tagged as American English, as I've written most of it and I'm from the UK. Obviously I'm not claiming ownership of it, but British English makes the most sense for European footballers.
  • It could be mentioned that Klinsmann was Bayern coach during his debut appearances, because he is now of special interest to English language readers I suppose
    • Done.
  • The length of his fist Bayern contract could be given
    • Done.
  • What must be mentioned somewhere I think is van Gaal's well-know statement about him "Müller spielt immer" (Müller plays always), which was not true for some games in the first half of the 2010–11 season, during his "dip in form" [4]
    • Done.
  • The 2010-11 section seems a bit short compared to the previous season's section. Some things which could be mentioned in more detail are the CL elimination by Inter, which was rather dramatic and he scored in that game. Also Bayern's problems, such as the much less effective van Gaal system, which was increasingly criticised as static and unimaginative in the media could be discussed.
    • Done. I'm wary of making it too long, though, as the article will obviously grow and grow as time goes on.
      • Maybe you could simply start a new paragraph after "reflect on "an almost unbelievable first year as a pro"" to give it the same number as paragraphs as the section above.
  • I think it would be interesting to mention that members of the Bayern board publicly spoke out against Müller playing at the World Cup as late as March 2010 [5]
    • Done.
  • "Despite suffering a scare ... only suffered superficial injuries" A lot of suffering, plus what does the scare have to do with the degree of his injuries?
    • Removed one instance of suffering. The point being that when he fell of his bike there was an initial worry that he'd get an injury that caused him to miss the WC
  • The only two exact dates given in the entire text are those of Germany's squad announcements. What makes those so important? We don't even learn the month of the Champions League final, for example.
    • Gone.
  • His goal against Australia was voted Germany's Goal of the Month for June 2010. [6]
    • Done.
  • It could be mentioned that his second booking was for a hand ball. Also that he (and most of the German media) felt it was very harsh.
    • Done.
  • I agree with a comment above that "bronze medal" (singular) would be better.
    • I'm sorry, I still disagree.
  • Isn't the International goals table hidable usually?
    • Done.
  • Personally, I would put the Playing style and Personal life sections above the two statistics sections. There is this huge gap in the prose and I almost didn't expected anything more below.
    • Done.

EnemyOfTheState|talk 12:41, 21 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've addressed these points. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 18:07, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My concerns above have been addressed, I now Support this nomination,. EnemyOfTheState|talk 16:10, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - The points made by Enemyofthestate and Oldelpaso seem to have been well addressed. It meets the standards set by FAs such as Thierry Henry and Gilberto Silva. Spiderone 16:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Have there been any spotchecks for copyvios or accurate representation of sources? Karanacs (talk) 14:50, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For my comments above, I looked at a dozen sources or so, finding no misrepresentation. That counts as spotchecks of sources I suppose ? EnemyOfTheState|talk 11:40, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I checked about a dozen sources too, but can only read a little German. A few comments:
  • Reference 16 ("Fußballer des Monats (September 2009) [Footballer of the month (September 2009)]") is dead.
    • Fixed
  • Can the #13 ref in the ("After the Haifa match,...every match[13]...") sentence be a little more specific than the career games played page? I understand that's a tough sentence to cite with one though and I might have to pick through a few links from that page.
    • Fixed with your suggested link
  • The sentence "Müller again played in every game of the season and scored 19 goals (12 in the league)[36]" is reference by a career stats page. Would this one be better where it says all competitions on the same page: [7]
    • Ditto
  • "Müller played in every match of the first half of the season, usually as a starter,[36]..." Maybe it's because I don't read German that well, but I can't tell if he was a starter from that page, unless I click many of the games. "These goals took his tally to eight goals in all competitions[36]" also links to that career page. I don't see a to-date goals tally after the games. But again, I don't know if it's possible for a single citation to do all of this.
    • "Eingewechselt" means "substituted on". If it's not there, the player started the game.
I see it now. Thanks for the clarification.
talk) 22:29, 12 September 2011 (UTC)[reply
]
  • I think the references in "plays ... on the right for Germany.[69][70]" just mention he played in the games and was a midfield, not which side or which midfielder.
    • Added a new ref
  • In this sentence, "Müller has been praised for his pace, technique,[82][83] awareness and positioning.[38]" reference 82 speaks about his maturity and experience, how he's a superstar in the making and how he is a prodigy, but not about pace and/or technique. Reference 83 mentions both pace and technique though.
    • Reworded
Other than that, everything looked well represented. Is that what spotchecks means?
talk) 19:31, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply
]
How about this reference for games started and goals scored: [8]? (If it doesn't go straight there, click appearances and then the season.) It looks like 2010-11 he had seven total goals after the two Stuttgart games. It also looks like he was subbed on once after the Haifa game and started the rest.
talk) 23:34, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply
]
I think I've sorted these. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 14:41, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. But I have another question. Now I can't find where in the reference it says he plays in the center for Bayern when I use Google translator ("He can play in any of the attacking midfield roles but usually plays in the center for Bayern Munich,[27]"). More of my poor German reading?
talk) 22:29, 12 September 2011 (UTC)[reply
]
I've added a better ref. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 14:47, 13 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Everything of mine has been addressed. Looks good! Support
talk) 16:15, 13 September 2011 (UTC)[reply
]

Oppose on prose and a couple of reference issues: Sorry to come in late on this one, but I don't feel this is quite ready yet. It suffers in places from a tendency I have noticed in football articles to read an awful lot into a page of statistics. I found a large number of prose issues, most of which I have listed here but there are a few other ones too. A copy-edit would help here, I feel. I am slightly uncomfortable with a couple of the references and I think it needs someone with good German to have a quick look at some of the prose sources. One other point which makes me uncomfortable (I'm afraid it's a bit of a sore point with me): this chap is very young and very early in his career. How can this article be fully representative when he is so young and so much is still to come? How can we guarantee that his subsequent feats will be added in such a way to keep this at FA standard? This is not something I would solely oppose on, but I am not particularly happy about it. --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:58, 14 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • For non-footballers: link for second striker? Also, what technique? More specific is good; tackling, dribbling, shooting, crossing…
  • "he made his first-team breakthrough in the 2009–10 season after Louis van Gaal was appointed as the main coach": This suggests the two are connected; if not, lose the information about van Gaal.
  • "This accomplishment earned him an international call-up…" I think neither the fact of Munich winning the Champions League, nor his appearance in so many games would cause him to be called up. What about "His performances earned…" or even just "At the end of the season, he was called up…".
  • "This accomplishment earned him an international call-up, and at the end of the season he was named in Germany's squad for the 2010 World Cup, where he scored five goals in six appearances as the team finished in third place." Very long sentence. Maybe split after "World Cup" and lose "where".
  • "he made the 50 km journey to join local Bundesliga side Bayern Munich in 2000." Odd sentence. It sounds like he made a one-off 50km journey to join the club, and sounds rather like a very old-fashioned story where a player walks miles and miles to join a club! Did he move to the area, or travel 50km every time to play and train?
  • "He made his debut for the reserve team in March 2008 when he replaced Stephan Fürstner in a Regionalliga match against SpVgg Unterhaching,[4] in which he scored." Two points: first, the reference does not mention Furstner but my German is not good enough to tell if it says he scored. Second, it is very wordy. If he appeared as a substitute, what about "He scored on his debut for the reserve team in March 2008 when he replaced Stephan Fürstner in a Regionalliga match against SpVgg Unterhaching."
  • "second string" is football speak and should not be in a FA.
  • "Despite Müller feeling that his performance did not go well…" Noun-verbing. What about "Although Muller felt…"?
  • "made his Champions League debut on 10 March 2009 when he was substituted on in the 72nd minute for Bastian Schweinsteiger": Substituted on?? Either "when he replaced XX in the 72nd minute" or "when he came on as a substitute for…"
  • "a two year deal" I think it should be "two-year".
  • "He was prepared to be loaned or even transferred away to find first-team football…" A little clunky; what about "To find first-team football, he was prepared to be loaned or even move permanently to another club".
  • "but when Louis van Gaal was appointed manager, both players became fixtures in the Bayern first team from the start of the season." Again, my non-existent German does not help, but I am certain that the given ref neither mentions van Gaal, nor speaks about Badstuber, as it is a list of Muller's appearances.
  • "He rounded off September by being named the Bundesliga player of the month…" A bit too much here; what about "He was named Bundesliga player of the month for September".
  • Not a big deal, but there seem to be different sites used to show his appearances. Is there any reason, as I can see no reason for ref 18 being used instead of some earlier ones. And to be fussy, I'm not sure it shows that he played nearly every game.
  • "In February 2010, Müller signed a new contract with Bayern Munich through 2013…" Rather than "through 2013" it may be better to say "signed a three-year contract".
  • "usually playing in a central striking role due to the availability of other wide players Franck Ribéry and Arjen Robben." This is the first mention of his playing position and implies that up until now he played on the wing. If this change of position is significant, his position in earlier games should be covered somewhere.
  • "this time extending his stay at Bayern until 2015" Again, maybe use the length of the contract instead of giving a finishing date as there is no guarantee he will still be at the team in 2015.
  • "but as the team struggled for results, Müller was unable to match the previous season's goalscoring exploits" My lack of German does not prevent me believing that a list of appearances and stats can offer the opinion that he was not matching his previous feats, nor that the team was struggling for results! Maybe "lost frequently" or "did not win many games" for the latter.
  • "being dropped to the bench": Jargon for non-footballers.
  • "even receiving a telling off" Un-encyclopedic. Maybe "received a reprimand"?
  • "He was philosophical about this dip in form, though…" No need for "though" and while I agree the ref supports the "philosophical" I think there may be a better way of putting it. But I would be happy for it to stay as it is.
  • "a spectacular goal": POV. Who says it was spectacular?
  • "but was involved in an altercation with team-mate Arjen Robben, who was angered when Müller showed his displeasure at a poor free-kick Robben took during a 3–1 win at Werder Bremen." Not sure of the significance of this, unless it was a serious dispute that received comments from the press/other players.
  • "Müller again played in every game of the season and scored 19 goals (12 in the league),[45] but the season was less successful for Bayern, as they finished third in the league,[46] and were knocked out of the DFB-Pokal in the semi-finals by Schalke 04[47] and in the round of 16 of the UEFA Champions League by Internazionale; Bayern had won 1–0 in the San Siro, and Müller scored 31 minutes into the second leg to make it 3–1 on aggregate, but Inter levelled the score at 3–3 in the 88th minute, to go through on the away goals rule." A very very long sentence. And too many ands in the first part before the semi-colon.
  • "Van Gaal was increasingly criticised for inflexibility…" By who? His players? The press? Officials at the club?
  • "the eighth in an 11–0 thrashing of San Marino." Thrashing is POV.
  • "Müller's regular appearances for Bayern's first team caused German national team manager Joachim Löw to publicly consider him for a call-up…" Surely the fact of his playing would not interest the manager? Otherwise, any player for any team (or a big team if we are going to be more precise) who appeared regularly would be called up into the national team. Would it not be his performance and success that interested the manager?
  • Is it not unusual for a player to be called up to the national squad after so few seasons?
  • "winning Germany's goal of the month award in the process": Surely he won the award later, not the instant he scored it, which the sentence suggests at the moment?
  • "the bronze medals": I was not aware that such medals were given at World Cups. Nor is it a term I have heard used in this context before.
  • "The team's success was a culmination of a series of changes made after the national team's failure at Euro 2000. The Germans emphasized a more open, attack-minded style not previously associated with Germany, and included prominent young players, including Müller, Sami Khedira and Mesut Özil." Not really relevant here as it is written, unless it is recast to say that his selection was part of a deliberate youth/attacking policy.
  • "With five goals Müller ended as joint top goalscorer of the tournament": Odd phrasing. What about "With five goals, Muller was joint top goalscorer for the tournament"?
  • "Müller has started each of Germany's first eight qualifiers for Euro 2012, all of which have ended in victory." Why switch to present tense? Perhaps just "Müller started Germany's first eight qualifiers for Euro 2012, all of which ended in victory".
  • "He has scored twice in the campaign, both goals coming in a 4–0 win over Kazakhstan in March 2011" As above, maybe just "He scored twice in a 4-0 win over Kazakhstan".
  • "Müller's role can be described as an attacking all-rounder"… Well, why not describe it so then? Better as "Müller's role is an attacking all-rounder".
  • Müller has been praised…" By who?
  • "he describes himself as a player who can find gaps in the opposition defense but not particularly good at dribbling or one-on-ones." Something missing from the second part of the sentence. Maybe "is not particularly good".
  • "His parents are named Klaudia and Gerhard, and he has a brother, named Simon, who is two and a half years younger.": Better to combine this whole part and say "Muller was born in xxx to Klaudia and Gerhard Muller. He and his younger brother Simon grew up in xxx."
  • "He married girlfriend Lisa, a model[89] in December 2009, after being engaged for two years." He and his wife Lisa, a model, married in December 2009 after a two-year engagement."

I'm sorry for the long list of points here, but I felt I ought to make them all as the article already has three supports. I am quite prepared to strike the oppose when these are cleared up. --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:58, 14 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • I would also like to contribute here but would prefer to wait until the above comments are resolved. Please leave a note on my talk page once these are covered. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:33, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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