Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Arsenal F.C. seasons/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 23:31, 7 October 2016 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of Arsenal F.C. seasons

Nominator(s): Lemonade51 (talk) 21:30, 3 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Completing the set of Arsenal lists, this is a comprehensive account of the football seasons played by the club. It's the second time I've nominated this here, the first nomination stagnated and reviewers raised issues with sourcing. Since then I've expanded the lead and history sections, sorted out the table and tided up the referencing. A big thanks goes to club historian Andy Kelly who helped out with the line-ups in the smaller cup competitions. As ever feedback would be most appreciated. Lemonade51 (talk) 21:30, 3 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Mymis

"by munition workers" -> link "munition"
"The club later that year resigned from amateur governing bodies, the Kent County and London Football Association and voted to turn professional" -> I believe the comma is missing somewhere?
En-dash (–) = An en-dash indicates that Arsenal did not participate -> maybe just "En-dash (–) = Arsenal did not participate"
when you click on "Joy (1952)", it does not go the the full ref
The Daily Telegraph, The Times, BBC Sport, The Independent nowhere linked
www.rsssf.com is not needed
UEFA.com -> UEFA
ESPN FC -> ESPN FC
theguardian.com -> The Guardian

Article was published on the Guardian website, not in the newspaper. I've wikilinked the site now.

Mymis (talk) 23:30, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look @Mymis:, have made changes. Lemonade51 (talk) 00:03, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You have my support, great work! Mymis (talk)

Comments by Struway2

An interesting article: I do approve of informative footnotes.

Resolved comments from Struway2 (talk) 11:09, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

* ~~Couple of the numeric columns don't sort numerically~~

~~Most of these lists (apart from a few of the very early ones) include the abandoned bit of the 39/40 season~~
- ~~and you'll want to include it as another exception in the league results source~~
~~Why do you use European Fairs Cup rather than its proper name?~~

~~Andy suggested this was its correct name, but I've changed it back to Inter-Cities~~

~~and in footnote e, please~~

~~If goalscorers are sourced to Andy Kelly's lineups, I'd like to see an accessdate more recent than 2011~~

~~Updated~~

~~don't think so~~

~~You have Ollier variously dated as 1992 and 1995~~
~~In the Key to cup record, you have R1 = First round, R2 = Second round, etc. But in the table you use R16, whch I'm guessing isn't the sixteenth round.~~
I'm sorry, but I'm going to raise issues with sourcing this time as well: not the lack of it, but the lack of clarity. From where I sit, the goalscorers column is the only one that appears to have any. The reader needs to be able to see where the content of each cell (or column or competition, anyway) comes from, so that if they're interested, or if they're spotchecking cells for a featured list candidacy, they know where they're supposed to look. And a list of 13 general references doesn't do it. Please can you make it clear, at appropriate place(s) on the list, where the reader would find the source for the Mercantile Credit thingy, or the FA Cup results, or for that matter last season's Premier League.

Cited the columns now

raising the obvious question: what makes statto.com a
reliable source
?

Well it isn't user generated, and was started up by Tony Brown, a football statistician who has written several books in use by the FA.

We've all used it. The presentation and apparent completeness of the data is good. Their association with Tony Brown certainly supports a claim of reliability, although their about page says that he supplied the original data and they've worked with him since, not that he started it up. As far as I can tell, there's no problem with the quality of the data. Their longevity is another factor. I'd like it to be
WP:RS.
But, there's nothing I can find on the site to say who "they" are. And there have been problems with reliability in the non-WP sense of the word. The site went down during the 2015 close season and stayed down well into 2015/16, with no explanation at the time or (AFAIK) since: 23 July, 5 August (with a helpful professional message that read "Follow @StattoCom for updates a couple of thousand followers might make it sooner - we will be back very soon"), 29 August. There were no updates on their twitter, just an apology when it came back up that reads as if the whole thing is a one-man show. It was down again this close season, but not for as long. Struway2 (talk) 11:09, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply
]

In any case, Ollier's book (up until the 1993-94 season), and Kelly's first team line ups site (before and thereafter) would be sufficient as the main source for league and cup results. Both authors are club historians and Kelly's site is regularly updated. Lemonade51 (talk) 11:38, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Was the London Challenge Cup really a first-team competition? right up to the 1970s?

Not exactly. After 1930 it became a secondary competition to Arsenal, much like the EFL Cup is today; when they did reach the final however, Chapman or whoever was incharge selected first-teamers. For consistency purposes I've included the cup results as they are listed as first-team games in Ollier's book.

I know I originally hatted your reply to this query, but having had a think about it I can't see why Ollier does list them as such. E.g., in 1937, the match programme for the final names the participants as Tottenham Hotspur Reserves and Arsenal Reserves, and apart from the Compton brothers with 14 and 15 league apps that season, neither of whom were first-team regulars yet, the remainder of the side averaged 2 league apps apiece. (As an aside, Denis Compton scored 54 for the MCC vs Yorkshire on the same day as that final; suppose if he'd nipped off quick once he was out, he'd have got there for a 6.30 kick-off :-) Kelly only lists it up to 1929/30, so you might want to clarify which sources verify which competitions; anyone wanting to look anything up will obviously go to Kelly, because it's available online, and will wonder why this competition isn't there.

The reason I'm including this is because of consistency, especially when it comes to the top goalscorer's column. The seasons before 1930 had added this competition to the goal tally, so I see no reason why the ones thereafter can't. Arsenal did field reserve teams after 1930, but Kelly said that during the 50s and 60s that was not always the case. For instance, Alan Skirton, a first teamer, scored four goals in the competition in 1961–62 which pushed his goal tally from 19 to 23. Have adjusted the note.

Second sentence of the second para of the lead might want tweaking: "success" twice in eleven words

Tweaked

MOS:IM
(last bullet point) requires alt text for images. The Highbury-related image is an ideal illustration (no pun intended) of why we need alt text: its caption doesn't give the text-only reader any idea of what they're seeing

Added

Source for being top scorer in division? Struway2 (talk) 14:20, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Clarified this.

@Lemonade51: Probably me, but I can't see where. There's nothing at the top of the column or in the colour key. 07:56, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake, added source in the colour key! Lemonade51 (talk) 13:02, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Think you need to make the players marked in the column the same ones as listed in the cited source. I see at least three discrepancies... Struway2 (talk) 13:32, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Struway2: Rooke, Macdonald and Shanks were the ones that needed changing. Lemonade51 (talk) 14:25, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @Struway2:, always good to have your feedback. Think I've addressed your concerns.

Thank you for your prompt replies and apologies for my habitual less-than-prompt return. I've edited any feedback into the comments above, and added two new comments on the end. I'm mostly off-wiki until Thursday, but promise faithfully to look back here as soon as time allows. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 17:57, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the delay @Struway2: been busy at work. I think I've got them all now. Lemonade51 (talk) 22:22, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And thanks once more @Struway2: Lemonade51 (talk) 23:19, 1 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can anything be done to narrow the unduly wide Community Shield column?

Can't seem to do anything...

Pity. Don't know what it looks like to the rest of you, but on my browser/screensize it's almost as wide as the Other comps column, in which Mercantile Credit Centenary Trophy wraps to one word per row. Leaving comment open just in case anyone has suggestions: not something I'd oppose on

@Lemonade51: One more (sorry for the bitty nature of this review, I juat haven't got the concentration span I once had). ~~Can you sort the top goalscorers column such that the "n/a" cells don't come between the real names beginning with M and N.~~ If it helps, once you've done this I will come back and support (and if I then notice anything else, I'll fix it myself if I can). Thank you for your patience. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 15:06, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Done! Thanks again for taking the time to review. Lemonade51 (talk) 16:23, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support. This version of the list is much improved on the first nomination, both the prose and the referencing. As far as I can tell, the list does now satisfy the

FL criteria. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 16:53, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

Addressed comments from - Yellow Dingo (talk) 05:50, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

in 2003–04 when → in the 2003–04 season when

Not done, having two 'seasons' in the same sentence would be repetitive.

"In 1930, Arsenal beat Newcastle United to win its first major piece of silverware." - what was the silverware??
'year later; by the" → "year later and by the"

Think it works better with semicolon

"United in the Cup final" → "United in the FA Cup final" - Arsenal also competed in the 1979–80 Football League Cup so just saying "cup" is ambiguous
"against Aston Villa" → "against Aston Villa in 2015"

— Nice list, i'm very close to supporting it. - Yellow Dingo (talk) 02:32, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments @Yellow Dingo:, have addressed them. Lemonade51 (talk) 11:36, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support good list from Lemonade51. - Yellow Dingo (talk) 05:50, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Source review passed, promoting. --Pres N 22:32, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This
WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot
goes through.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.