Wikipedia:Peer review/Stefon/archive2

Stefon

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I had initially sent this to PR last year, but since then, I've added more to the article and sent this to GA. However, I am not sure if this meets GA criteria. Listed below are my concerns:

About the Appearances section; I have no idea if I should list all his appearances on Weekend Update or leave it as is. If I go with the latter option, I might give readers the assumption that the character has only appeared 4 times while it's actually a lot more (see Special:Diff/1141299627)
Another concern is how much detail I should put. For example, as established earlier in the Characters section, Stefon develops a relationship with Seth Meyers, and it's one of the notable points of the character. The Appearances section does not really touch on this more than the wedding and other mentions, while the Characters section only uses 2 paragraphs to explain this relationship. (This is definitely related to the first concern.)
Another problem with the Characters section specifically and the whole article in general is that I feel like the statements are presented as if they are facts. We never really know if the things Stefon says in his appearances are true or not.

If anyone can answer my concerns and give advice to help me improve the article, that would be great. Spinixster (chat!) 07:10, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Thebiguglyalien

General:

The short answer to your first two concerns is "what do the sources say". If you can find information about all of his appearances in secondary sources, I say add those details (as long as you're not trying to list every club/gimmick he talked about or something like that). It would also be really helpful if one of the sources said he appeared in however many sketches. The sourcing looks pretty good overall; I was worried that it would be sourced to the sketches themselves. As far as other details go, I think the article could afford to expand a little more.

Lead:

The first sentence is a little long-winded. I would split it so the first sentence is that he's a "fictional character played by Bill Hader on Saturday Night Live" and then the second sentence would talk about his creation.
WP:LEADSENTENCE
is relevant here.
There's room for a few more details in the lead. None of these necessarily have to be in the lead, but a few possibilities might be more about Stefon's character arc, the supporting characters (Stiller and Mulaney), or his outside of SNL appearances.

Development:

The article's weakest point is its coverage of the writing process, where very little is said. I'd like to see more about how Mulaney and Hader write the sketches. I happened to see a couple sentences about this in Valinsky (2012), which would be a good starting point.
by people Hader and Mulaney had encountered – I'd specify where they encountered them (e.g. "in their daily lives"). Right now it could be read as them specifically seeking out people to inspire the character. Same goes for the lead.
The body of the article doesn't tell us what Weekend Update is. The lead calls it "SNL's recurring satirical news segment", but that information is not in the body.
exuberant descriptions of nonexistent nightclubs – Nonexistent from Stefon/Seth's perspective? Would "fictional" work better here?
in an attempt to – This could be shortened to "to" and it would mean the same thing.
I know that Mulaney referenced his use of the word "midget" in one of his stand up specials. If any sources make the connection, that would be a good detail. But if not, it's not that important.

Character:

to recommend unusual events and destinations – I could be misremembering and I haven't checked the source, but does he recommend "events"? This seems to contradict the next sentence, which says he introduces them as clubs.
I'd expect to see a little more coverage of the "midget" jokes (even just a sentence) given how frequently they appear.
possibly due to his heavy use of recreational drugs – According to whom? Right now it looks like Wikipedia is speculating.
His mother is named Ms. Stefon, and... – I agree that we shouldn't present these as facts, and everything from this to the end of the paragraph should be attributed to Stefon.
Consider attributing ideas to the authors instead of the books themselves. Even better if the authors' qualifications can be included (like "professor of media studies" or whatever it may be).

Appearances:

The number of subheadings here could be reduced.
A few really short paragraphs here. These should be avoided per
MOS:PARA
.
the head of the segment – Not clear what this means.
One of these appearances was opposite Colin Jost instead of Meyers, right? If I'm remembering correctly, that detail could be mentioned.
Could more be said about what they did in their autism charity appearances?
Paramount Pictures began discussions for a Stefon movie – Do we know when this happened?

Reception:

Stefon has had a generally positive reception. – Is there a source supporting this?
I don't like how the sources are used with Stefon's quotes, such as "New York's hottest club" and "This place has everything", have been used by several media sources. The sources don't actually say that the quotes "have been used by several media sources". They just use them and we came to the conclusion on our own, which is an original research concern.
The character has also been criticized. – This doesn't really add anything, since we see it in the next few sentences.
It's not ideal to sort reception into positive and negative if it can be helped. I'm sort of a stickler with reception sections, but the ideal would be to have more sources that describe the general reception rather than specific critics' responses, and then sorting the ideas by topic instead of by positive/negative. A paragraph on reception to the character's queer aspects would be great if a little more info on that could be found.

These are the notes that I'd want addressed before passing this in a GA review, but the eventual reviewer could always see some of these differently. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:03, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the feedback, I'm in the process of the article accordingly. To answer a few points:

Character:
- I did remember him recommending an event that was happening in a club, but I'll remove "events" for now.
- I didn't include the names of the authors per a discussion in the WP:Discord server, where I asked for advice. The reason why I changed this was because the sentence was quite long: In Saturday Night Live and Philosophy: Deep Thoughts Through the Decades, Kati Sudnick and Erik Garrett mention Stefon as an illustrated example of the problems of a technocratic elite., and even longer if I include the professions. The Heartland source was added later. If there's a way to include the authors and professions without it being long, I'd love to know.
Appearances:
- Doug Abeles is the head of the Weekend Update segment. I unfortunately do not know how to make it more clear without repeating Weekend Update twice.
- The paragraphs will hopefully be expanded once I add more information about the character's appearances.
- I can try including more for A Funny Affair, but there are surprisingly very limited sources for Night of Too Many Stars. The only source I could find (which is in the article) mentions Stefon "drenching Paul Rudd in vodka".
- It is unknown when Paramount Pictures began discussions for a Stefon movie. According to the original interview, it might have been around 2012-2014, but that might be original research.
Reception:
- I was basing the sentences off
  WP:RECEPTION
  , where it says to signpost each paragraph with a topic statement. If this isn't appropriate, I will remove it.
- I couldn't find more reliable sources about the character's queer aspects other than the Polygon source. There is the last paragraph in the Guest appearances section if it counts as a response.

I'm not very good at prose, so if there's any other issues, please let me know. Spinixster (chat!) 11:21, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If I were writing it, I'd cite the authors instead of the book title. Something like "communications professors Kati Sudnick and Erik Garrett mention Stefon as..."
Is Abeles the segment's head writer, the director, etc?
I like the reception essay and following it will generally help. Just make sure each sentence adds something in some way and has a corresponding source that explicitly says whatever it's cited to.

Also, don't worry too much about whether it's perfect before nominating it. Once you have the content written and sourced, you're most of the way there. The barrier to GA isn't all that high, and any minor issues can be smoothed out in the review process. Just be ready for a long wait time before a GA reviewer picks it up. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:57, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the reply. I believe I've added all of the character's appearance (except for his appearance in the SNL Katy Perry promo, I couldn't find a source for that). The prose may be repetitive, but are there any other problems? Spinixster (chat!) 07:00, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say it's ready for a GA nomination. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you again for the comments! Spinixster (chat!) 01:16, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]