Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/British logistics in the Western Allied invasion of Germany
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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British logistics in the Western Allied invasion of Germany
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Concluding article in the series on British logistics in the campaign in North West Europe in 1944-1945, taking the story down to the conclusion of the war in Europe. (Its American counterpart is still in the works.) For some reason the campaigns of 1945 has not been covered in the literature or the Wikipedia nearly as well as those of 1944. Once again though, I have uncovered some striking images and maps and high quality sources. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:15, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
Support by Nick-D
This is a fascinating topic for an article, and is in great shape. I agree that there's an odd neglect of the western Allied invasion of Germany in the literature - it was one of the most successful, and most important, campaigns of the war but is seemingly of little interest to historians. I have the following comments:
- Either the first sentence of the lead or the article is too narrow, given that logistics for the RAF units involved in the campaign were also significant.
- The background section should be broadened to note that the 21st Army Group was a multinational formation - the First Canadian Army should be noted, along with the presence of other smaller national contingents, though I think that most of them were used as part of the sieges in France in this period. As the article notes, all were dependent on British logistical support.
- The background section should also note the logistical story for the 21st AG up to this point in the war - e.g. that it enjoyed good logistical support from the invasion of Normandy (which was needed and formed an explicit part of British Army doctrine which emphasised firepower and mobility to limit casualties), and various problems that affected it over the autumn and winter were largely ironed out.
- The 'Organisation' section could note the contribution made by civilian workers in Belgium and France
- The 'Operation Veritable' section is quite long, and would benefit from being split into subsections
- Ditto the 'Operation Plunder' section
- I'd suggest explaining what's meant by 'grounding' in the context in which it is used
- "British PWX were flown directly to the UK" - this seems to have been the case for all liberated Commonwealth POWs (see Second Australian Imperial Force in the United Kingdom#Prisoner of war repatriation)
- I'd suggest weaving in a link to Surrendered Enemy Personnel somewhere in the material on German prisoners. The topic is somewhat controversial due to allegations the prisoners were mistreated after the war (largely by the French and Americans - the British seem to have treated their POWs relatively well).
- During the war. Apparently 2.6 per cent of German prisoners held by the French died, compared with 0.1 per cent by the Americans, and 0.03 per cent by the British (and 35.8 per cent of those held by the Soviet Union). The whole point about Surrendered Enemy Personnel was that (contrary to what our article says) they were not POWs and were not treated as such. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:58, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- While the post-war period is out of scope, it might be worth noting briefly the huge logistical problems the 21st Army Group faced as it transitioned to becoming an army of occupation - the German economy and transport system was destroyed and the population was facing mass starvation. One of the reasons rationing became even more strict in the UK after the war was the need to feed Germans in the British occupation zone. The occupation army also continued to receive a high standard of logistical support after the war.
- It is not just a matter of it being outside article scope; it is also outside the scope of my sources. I will have to use different ones to write a paragraph at the end. Hawkeye7
Support My comments above are now addressed. The other comments are for consideration ahead of a FAC. Nick-D (talk) 04:22, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
Support from Gog the Mild
- "Although it contained personnel nations". Is there a typo here?
- "This required major operations". If these were largely military, as opposed to, say, mine clearing, construction, rubble and boobytrap clearing etc, then perhaps 'required major military operations'?
- I don't use words like "operations" casually. Re-worded slightly, and piped to operational level of war. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:04, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- There are several duplinks.
- "along with two DUKW companies that were converted to using 3-ton trucks." I don't understand what is meant here.
- What are "railtails"?
- "Montgomery sought to defeat Germany". Seems a little grandiose. With just the 21st Army Group?
- "In turn this demanded a high degree of organisation and professionalism required to utilise the available machines and firepower to best effect". This doesn't quite work grammatically. Consider removing "required".
A high class article. Just the minor nit picks above. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:10, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
Support from Vami
Reserving a spot. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 18:28, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
- Lead
I recommend reducing the first sentence to a facsimile of those of related articles (e.g. British logistics in the Siegfried Line campaign).By 1945 the British Army was highly experienced, professional and proficient.
This is vague and somewhat redundant. I suggest the addition of just a little bit of context, especially since "By 1945" would suggest that this sentence is referring to the British experience of logistics throughout the war rather than the specific period of January to May 1945.The offensive was supported by 600 field and 300 medium guns. Over 2.5 million rounds of 25-pounder ammunition were made available.
Do the field and medium guns both shoot 25-pound shells?Petrol, oil and lubricants (POL) was [...]
I wonder if this shouldn't be "were".[...] from the UK [...]
While there's no doubt at all that just about anyone who will read this article will know that "UK" here means "United Kingdom", and it's obvious from context anyway, I'll still highlight that this is the first time the acronym occurs in the article and without explanation.- I did not know the RAF flew jet fighters during the War! And that they ran on kerosene fascinates me. Yesterday's lamp becometh tomorrow's jet.
- So much has been written about the German jets I think the Gloster Meteor may have been forgotten. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 11:06, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
- Background
- When did Montgomery assume command of the 21st Army Group? Before Overlord?
The Canadian historian, Charles Stacey noted that:
Is this comma here necessary?[...] when the American Operation Cobra broke through the German defences.
Where?Petrol was brought in tankers and over the Operation Pluto pipeline.
Is this petrol distinct from our old friend POL?- Yes. POL is all fuels. "Petrol" is the British word for motor spirit. It was originally a brand name, but long ago became the regular word. Americans call it "gasoline", which was also once a brand name. The main types of POL in use in the period were petrol (MT-80), aviation spirit (MT-100), kerosene (JP-1), distillate (diesel) and fuel oil (bunker fuel). Hawkeye7 (discuss) 11:06, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
[...] for which [Montgomery's] Allied forces were particularly suited; [...]
As opposed to his Axis forces?
- Operation Goldflake
The Combined Chiefs further decided to reinforce Eisenhower's armies in North West Europe at the expense of those in the Mediterranean.
When/where was this decided?What is ration strength? Google has an answer, but I think the article should, too.At the rail stop there were messes and a kitchen that ran 24 hours a day. During the two-hour rail halt, the troops were served a hot meal and provided with sandwiches for the next one.
For the next day or the next rail stop?At the start of January 1945, British bulk storage facilities [...]
Where?[...] but the American position was not so good.
Unencyclopedic and vague.[...] 21st Army Group's REME units [...]
This acronym is explained later but should be explained here.
- Operation Veritable
[...] of which around 227,000 tonnes (223,000 long tons) was for Operation Veritable.
Should be "were for" here.[...] the supplies being to sustain the divisions in operations when the road network became congested with operational traffic.
Huh?[...] and the divisions were issued with Arctic clothing and equipment that had been stockpiled for operations in Norway.
...from all the way back in 1940?The 5 miles (8.0 km) of the Nijmegen-Cleve road [...]
Suggest use of |adj=on here for "The 5-mile-long Nijmegen-Cleve road..."
- Operation Plunder
[...] while the attached II Canadian Corps continued to draw its from the First Canadian Army's No. 13 Army Roadhead at Nijmegen. [...] while the US 17th Airborne Division drew its from the US Ninth Army.
Recommend "its supplies" as in the previous relevant clauses.Additional supplies of fuel were loaded on DUKWs, which ferried fuel across the river until bridges were opened.
This can be condensed with no loss in quality.[...] Forêt de Soignes [...]
Suggest use of English name.
Image review - pass
Will conduct one before the end of the weekend. Hog Farm Talk 15:53, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- File:Rhineland Campaign - 6-10 March 1945.jpg - source link is dead
- File:Advance from the Rhine to the Baltic.jpg - creation date is wrong
- File:Operation Goldflake.jpg - with the current tag, you would need to include a tag for why it's PD in the US. This is presumably Canada Crown Copyright, so if that's the case switching to the crown copyright tag would work.
No concerns with the other images. Hog Farm Talk 02:43, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
Source review
- Spotchecks not done
- Sources are high-quality RS
- Notes and references are consistently formatted.
- Support--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:22, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.