Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not/Archive 26

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

The April update of all content policy, deletion policy and enforcement policy pages and all the general style guidelines is done, and I'll try to get the updates done on the first of each month from now on. - Dank (formerly Dank55) (push to talk) 03:48, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I've asked a question at Wikipedia talk:Notability (books)#Short story?, about whether a guideline for short story articles should be created. There are many short story articles that have only a synopsis. Any opinions and suggestions are appreciated. NJGW (talk) 03:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC) (edit: I should have specified the discussion can be found at the link above)

"There are many short story articles that have only a synopsis." And there's nothing wrong with that. --Pixelface (talk) 03:43, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Other than they violate

WP:ENC, of course... you can go tilting at windmills all you like, but your idea of what's wrong or right in these situations doesn't match Wikipedia's longstanding principles. DreamGuy (talk

) 13:23, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Believe me, your ruleslawyring does not impress me. The Wikipedia: namespace is a wiki too you know. Have you happened to read the RFC thread above? Can you care to explain how summarizing a source qualifies as "synthesis"? And can you find me a definition of "encyclopedia" anywhere that says plot summaries are forbidden? I know plenty about Wikipedia's longstanding principles, and I also know plenty about longstanding practice. And speaking of Cervantes, go look at the article The Siege of Numantia. Maybe you could also tell me how long that article's been on Wikipedia (that is, if you can find the history tab). --Pixelface (talk) 08:47, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Ultimately, these probably need to meet the

general notability guideline, though I can see merging of stories of notable authors into a "list of short stories by X" if they are otherwise not part of a notable anthology (say A Medicine for Melancholy). --MASEM (t

) 03:57, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Ultimately, the GNG is but one indicator of notability. --Pixelface (talk) 11:07, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Ultimately best practise may be to merge them though. Or it may not. That's about the size of it, it pretty much comes down to consensus as to the best method of organising and presenting. Hiding T 12:09, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Probably the best thing to do with poor quality short stories is to fold them into collections or anthologies, if that's what they were/are published together as. Shunting them to the author doesn't seem like it's feasible, given we don't throw plot details into biographies. For example The Myst Reader is the anthology, but it also covers the plot and production of all three books. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 13:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

If there is no anthology to merge to, delete the plot details and merge anything salvageable to the biography page. If someone really insists on saving the plot details, they are free to start up a new wikia project for plot summaries and move such unencyclopedic content there. DreamGuy (talk) 13:23, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Any time someone says other Wikipedia editors are "free" to put content on Wikia or insist on calling something "unencyclopedic", I always think that the person suggesting as much is free to go to Britannica 2.0 and see if their idea of what's "encyclopedic" matches an actual encyclopedia. That means you. --Pixelface (talk) 08:34, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Do you just link to that every time everyone disagrees with you and hope that people will blindly accept that the page in somehow backs up what you say? You're not even a good bluffer. There's nothing there that supports your claims. Now, do you want to talk about encyclopedia content, or do you want to continue to fail at pulling mind games on people who aren't as gullible as you hope they'd be? DreamGuy (talk) 13:27, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Please don't make this personal; this should not be a

battleground. Comment on content, not the editor. --MASEM (t

) 13:32, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Why tell someone they're "free to start up a new wikia project for plot summaries" and then get all offended when someone tells you that you're free to go to another encylopedia project? I linked to a newspaper article about Britannica 2.0. I don't know the actual URL and I don't care. You're free to go there and see if your idea of an encyclopedia matches a real encyclopedia that's been around for more than a decade. Then put your money where your mouth is. The article doesn't "back up" what I say and I made no bluff and I didn't say it "supported my claims." Where do you get off saying that plot summaries are "unencyclopedic content"? You can talk about "encyclopedia content" to your heart's content at Britannica 2.0. How many encyclopedias have you ever worked for? You seriously think that encyclopedias don't contain plot summaries? Have you even read any part of any encyclopedia? Frankly, you have me wondering if that account's been compromised. --Pixelface (talk) 04:26, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Some Some articles on TV shows have the list of a show's broadcasters worldwide and that of a show's title in multiple languages. Some users consider those are unnecessary fancruft, and delete them all, while some other users think those are useful information, and keep them.

Should those kinds of list be considered indiscriminate collections of information? -- JSH-alive ^{talk • cont • mail} 09:12, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

(Wait! It could work with such kind of books and all kinds of media, also. -- JSH-alive ^{talk • cont • mail} 13:33, 30 April 2009 (UTC))

I'm inclined to say it is an indiscriminate collection of information, particularly the list of titles. It also does not mesh with

talk · contribs

) 16:07, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

In general, if it is just a rebroadcast of that show in another language. In cases where it is a completely different production, nationalized for that country/area, then I'd keep that list. --MASEM (t) 12:42, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Alas,

WP:ILIKEIT is no reason to keep such lists of indiscriminate stuff. If the lists are unverifiable, then they should be nominated for deletion. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs)

13:01, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

In response to JSH's second addition above, yes, the list of the alternate names of a published (and translated) work, show, movie, whatever in foreign countries is not appropriate. --MASEM (t) 14:05, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

And also, name of a fictional character in various languages. Now, it seems a solid guideline is needed. -- JSH-alive ^{talk • cont • mail} 07:01, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I was just wondering - why is WP:NOT tagged as policy? There are a lot of different concepts here and some of them seem to rise to the level of policy but others do not. For example, "Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought" is largely an expansion on our

Actually many of the items in this list are noted in the

Five pillars, so in some sense this policy actually has greater force than most other policies, in my view. Especially given that fact it seems like it unquestionably should be a policy to me. Locke9k (talk

) 21:14, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I do think it's a mess - it just doesn't have the logical backbone that other policies do; it's basically a shopping list of "stuff the community has agreed WP shouldn't do". A lot of it is duplicative of things elsewhere, just collected in one place. I think a major revision to structure it as Wikipedia:Inclusion policy would improve it; but I'm not sure the reams of virtual paper that would require would be worth it. Rd232 ^talk 21:56, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps we could have a more explicit definition of which are considered policies or guidelines? I don't know, that might be too messy and hard to gain consensus on. Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 23:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Another early step in rationalizing this will be to split the behavioural and the content parts-- though I do not know what to call them. DGG (talk) 17:16, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

This is a content policy, pure and simple. Admittedly, a lot of the content, like

WP:NPOV. In some ways it makes sense to keep all of the prohibitions on article content in one place, rather than spreading them around. I guess it boils down to the fact that content that fails one or more content polices is an indiscriminate collection of information that is not suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs)

17:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Why is

WP:RS is not a policy. --Pixelface (talk

) 04:04, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

the part that needs to be separated is the "Community " part. this should be policy. The rest should be a guideline. DGG (talk) 18:14, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't remember a consensus being gained for the addition of the statement "Excerpts of lyrics may be used within an article for the purpose of direct commentary upon them, or to illustrate some aspect of the style" in

Actually, no. The current consensus is presumably that of the main content guideline, Wikipedia:Do not include the full text of lengthy primary sources. I hope this isn't controversial, but I've reworked it to better reflect that guideline, and linked to it. I don't think it actually conflicted before, but it was a lot more ambiguous.Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 10:24, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I think your version may be a bit wordy, but it seems to reflect consensus in the sense of reflecting general good practice. I don't think there's ever been a consensus against lyric snippets for the purpose of commentary.—Kww(talk) 12:27, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Aye, I kind of threw it all in: I figured that it was better, for the moment, to try and summarise the whole guideline than to try and simplify it too much and get yelled at for leaving out material that others thought was crucial to the point. A simpler phrasing might be

Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 12:35, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Shoemaker's Holiday, are you still opponsed to lyric only articles, and if so why? --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 20:46, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I think I'm OK with how it appears now. The words "relative to the length of the article" are crucial.

talk

) 13:25, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, if there's no objections except for mild ones related to length, we may as well leave it at that for now. Certainly, I agree with those words - the only reason I left them out of the attempt at shortening above is because that concept is made very clear in the linked guideline. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 14:45, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Given that it is now plain that WP#PLOT lacks consensus to be here (which is exactly what the RfC was about) I'd like to explore the options

1. Leave it as is. Inertia rules and we only change things that have consensus to change.
2. Update it so that it is plain that we only don't have articles that are 100% plot.
3. Remove it and put it in
   Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction)
   (WAF) or some other location.

   3a: Remove it from here, and open an RfC at

   WP:WAF to make sure we get the wording right, and consensus - there's been so many versions that I don't think we can point to a consensus wording for it. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk

   ) 18:30, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

4. Remove it entirely from here and everywhere else.

• As I read the RfC and the comments, I think #3 is the correct outcome, but I suspect #2 is the best of the rest. My personal preference would be #4, but I don't think the RfC supports that. Hobit (talk) 18:17, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

• I'd suggest a slightly modified plan, 3a. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 18:30, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

• There's two issues that I think we may need to strawpoll again for because the current poll only suggests moving off NOT but not if it should be weakened or not:
  • First Issue Where should advice that "Ultimately, the coverage of a fictional work should not be only a plot summary" should be located:
    1. Remain as policy at WP:NOT
    2. Remain as policy in new policy page (or possibly an existing policy page)
    3. Change to guideline in WP:WAF
    4. Change to guideline in new guideline page (or possibility an existing guideline page)
    5. No advice of this sort is needed and/or appropriate and should be removed outright from WP

• Second Issue Given any but the last choice above, what wording should be used at the target policy/guideline page? --MASEM (t) 18:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

• We should probably just remove the first and last option. They'll attract and undue amount of attention, and will ultimately polarize the debate, making it impossible to build a consensus. Rather, we should say "given that there is no consensus to remove WP:PLOT, but there appears to be large support for moving it and/or rephrasing it..." and then offer several middle options. Randomran (talk) 19:17, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I would like to see some analysis of the RFC before accepting the argument that consensus has changed. The straw poll seems quite close to me, so I see no consensus for removal, but mainly I would like to know what would be the benefits of allowing non-encyclopedic coverage, when clearly plot summary is not encyclopdedic. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 20:28, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Policy requires a decent amount of agreement. If over 50% are opposed to something being in a policy in any form, I don't see how we can continue to put it on a page that says that it has widespread consensus. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 20:33, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, to be fair, we're not about numbers here, we're looking at strength of argument - which is about equal on both sides. Plus there are a number of no !votes that suggest that they are misreading it (the ones that seem to be believe inclusion bans any plot summary, which is not the question being asked). But there are several no !votes that point to the fact that while the statement "coverage should not be only plot summary" is appropriate, WP:NOT is the wrong place for it, which is a very good point and I'm willing to consider if it should be moved - but there's more than enough support reading through all !votes that it should not be outright removed completely. Which is why I suggest a more specific straw poll now that the lay of the land that takes into account those no !votes that express the biteyness of PLOT being in NOT to figure out if a new location is better. That's why the above 5 options cover all possible cases and thus would be a quick numbers estimate to see where it should fall. --MASEM (t) 20:41, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I am not so sure. If it turns out the argument in favour of

WP:IDONTLIKEIT, then that arguement does not hold up. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs)

20:44, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I find myself agreeing with Gavin here. At the risk of recapitulating the whole debate above, NOT isn't a popular policy. There are thousands of users who come here each week hoping to add content which we have determined violates NOT. If we assembled them and asked whether or not we should remove our restrictions on advertising, directory or blog content, there would be a resounding "yes". I'm not trying to draw an equivalence directly here. there are dozens of long term users of the encyclopedia who are unhappy with plot for reasons which extend beyond ILIKEIT. But we might want to consider that the boundaries of the encyclopedia are constantly contested. The fact that they are contested should not indicate in of itself that we need to expand them. Outcomes matter too. Articles which are predominantly plot summaries and cannot be sourced to independent, third party sources are routinely deleted. As articles move up our internal assessment schemes, the bulk and relative importance of

original

summary decreases. We have existing style guides and wikiproject suggestions noting that we regularly seek to limit plot summary in articles. Just like WP:N, these policies, guidelines and practices come into conflict with many editors. I think that the conflict is partially unavoidable. There is no system of inclusion that can be made to satisfy an open editing pool while still retaining some boundary of what our content is and is not. We should take care (as has been noted here) to fix or clarify positions where this conflict flares up. One of the reasons I supported FICT was to ameliorate the conflict between policy and editors. PLOT here should probably be revised to do the same.

But I'm not sure that we have consensus to move plot to WAF (where it may provide needed oomph but would likely be regularly dismissed as "just a style guide"). I'm convinced that we don't have consensus to eliminate it entirely. Protonk (talk) 21:00, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Ahh. (edit conflict) with Random. He speaks the truth. Finding the middle path is the way out. Protonk (talk) 21:00, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

And once again, we find ourselves dragged off topic with the old "keep it the same" versus "remove it entirely" polemics that can only end in "no consensus". I'll be waiting around for the moment when people get sick of this pattern, and decide to discuss the numerous options in the middle. Randomran (talk) 20:52, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I think #2 and #3 on the list at the top of this section are the middle ground. Secondly, I think you should propose something specific if you have any ideas about that middle ground. Hobit (talk) 21:26, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, was only talking about this little diatribe in the middle here. You're right that #2 and #3 are both compromise solutions that get us away from the old debates, so hopefully we can get people to focus on those. Randomran (talk) 22:12, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

(undent):If

I suggest incorporating it into MOS and into the

WP:WAF, as the same principles apply to articles about non-fiction works in many fields - whether it's literature or science or political theory or whatever, third-party comments on the content, the influences on it and its influence on later works should be required for any kind of "higher grade". --Philcha (talk

) 21:05, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

*sigh* Why is it that my statement that we should remove iot from here, and open a discussion to work out a wording to add to

WP:WAF

constantly re-interpreted as "let's throw the whole thing out"? It's like noone's even reading what I say.

Let me state my position - again. 1. This is not an appropriate place for it. 2. The core idea is reasonable, but the wording isn't stable, so we ought to discuss changes. 3. This discussion on wording is best done at the page where we propose to insert it, to make sure that there's no edit wars by editors of that page.

If you will look, I proposed a week ago that we begin to discuss what wording we should take to the new page. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 21:07, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

The place to discuss its incorporation into the GA criteria is at

WP:DYK, articles are not accepted for DYK that are only plot summaries, primarily because plot summaries are not referenced. —Mattisse (Talk

) 21:20, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi, Mattisse, thanks for showing up.

WT:GAN might spot snags that I haven't. -Philcha (talk

) 13:00, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

• Like the idea. Would want a better word than "appropriate" as it provides no guidance about ratio. Hobit (talk) 22:00, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

there is no one rule about ratio. Finding one is impossible, as the preceding year's worth of discussion makes evident. It will depend on both the specific subject being discussed, and the available material. Some topics have more worth saying about one thing than another. DGG (talk) 22:06, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Certainly, but as articles show up at AfD for being in violation of NOTPLOT, I'd like to see some more guidance about what we expect. Hobit (talk) 22:08, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I like Wagner's wording in Die Meistersinger: "Not too short, and not too long" . If I was not clear, this wording is intended to replace NOT PLOT. DGG (talk) 22:13, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I think this is great, but it ought to be in

WP:WAF as per discussion above. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk

) 10:59, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

In alternative venues such as Wookieepedia, where the inclusion criteria are more relaxed, this is not a problem: plot summary can be used on its own, or to provide filler where real-world coverage is lacking in order to provided extended coverage of a topic.

But in Wikipedia, a lack of significant real-world coverage will result in successive conflicts with various content policies. Generally speaking, if a topic fails

At the moment, there is a concerted effort to have

For this reason, I don't think that

Incidentally none of the notability guidelines are policy. They're guidelines, and subject to control here, for all types of articles. I agree with the goal of making "an increasingly better written and more comprehensive encyclopedia" and that applies to fictional topics also. More comprehensive is the key. means fictional topics can't be exempt from them, explicitly or implicitly. Otherwise you get us in a circular bind. We cant change WP:FICT because it contradicts here, and we cant change here because it contradicts FICT. There has to be a route to change. DGG (talk) 19:54, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with DGG. There is widescale acceptance that plot-only articles are inappropriate, and that a "Wookiepedia" level of detail is inappropriate. However, the current policy is probably too harsh, or at least has been used in ways that are too harsh. We'd make a lot of progress if we rephrased the current WP:NOT.

• Scene-by-scene plot descriptions: An article must do more than describe the plot of a narrative work, with substantial coverage of the work's real-world development, reception, and significance. However, a concise summary of the plot is an appropriate part of an article, and should consist of more than a mere teaser.

I think there's something in there for everyone. It never states that we don't want plot, but that we want more than just plot. And it also states that this policy is not an excuse to trim down a plot summary to the point that it beomes a mere teaser. I think most people would agree that this is an improvement on what we have now, or at worst a lateral move, because we explicitly try to stop this policy from being abused. Randomran (talk) 21:11, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Still broken. Try applying it to the Bible (where pretty much any character who did anything but begat another probably has an article) or, to use a practical example, the following FAs: Hamlet, Romeo and Juliet, The General in His Labyrinth, Trial by Jury, Agrippina (opera). All of these clearly have a "scene-by-scene" plot description, for some definition of scene-by-scene, anyway. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 07:54, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Gavin, please read User:Pixelface/On NOTPLOT (and it's citations). It cannot be policy. And it's spelled "remain" by the way. --Pixelface (talk) 06:50, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

The general consenus in reality is that the thousands of article creators and writers who work on plot based articles that a scant minority of at times only a half dozen accounts comment on in AfDs and the millions of readers who come here for this information is that these articles are what Wikipedia is. Thus, "not plot" is something supported by a vocal minority only whereas compared to the few who comment in threads such as this versus those who actually work on and come here to read the articles suggests that overwhelmingly the community thinks spinoff articles are acceptable. And I cannot help but wonder how much we would actually improve these articles if we devoted more time to adding references and out of universe information than on Guideline pages and in AfDs. It increasingly seems that so much time and energy is misplaced. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 06:58, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Gavin, histrionic comments about why we should ignore any people who dislike it being here neither further discussion, nor are they likely to to help, nor will strawman versions of the arguments against NOTPLOT.

I think everyone agrees we should have some policy or guidelines on fiction, but here, we can only use a blunt stick to deal with a nuanced issue. Better to open an RfC at, say,

God, this is so boring - haven't we just had a discussion about plots in artciles about fiction somewhere? I agree (!) with Gavin Collins's first sentence, "It is general consensus on Wikipedia that articles about works of fiction should not be split and split again into ever more minutiae of detail treatment." After that it all goes wrong. I commented in the previous debate that articles on fiction have to start with plot, otherwise reporting of sources' commnets is meaningless, since there's nothing for them to refer to. And the fact that an article starts as plot-only does not mean it's going to go cancerous and metastasise into a swarm of in-universe trivia.

I confess when I see the word "encyclopedic" I suspect the motives of whoever uses it. I've seen no definition of the word, and suspect it's more of a tribal badge. It reminds me of the saying that the 2nd best way to sink a politician's career in the UK Conservative party is to ask "But is (s)he sound?", which really means "Can we trust this person to do as we want?" (BTW the most damning words in the UK Conservative party are "too clever", which means "thinks for himself / herself"). I suggest "encyclopedic" should be treated as

WP:WEASEL. --Philcha (talk

) 07:26, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I think the key point for you to note is that a lack of significant real-world coverage will result in successive conflicts with various

undue wieght on the primary source, they lack credibility. Public and scholarly critique of an artist or work, when well-researched and verifiable, helps to put the work into context and enhances the credibility of the article. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs)

10:25, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Re "In the case of plot-only articles that place

undue wieght on the primary source, they lack credibility", I suspect a plot summary that's defective in some way will be the most serious threat to credibility. If readers think, "That's not the movie I saw / book I read / etc.," they won't read down as far as the digest of third-party comments. "Public and scholarly critique ... enhances the credibility of the article" but is not essential to its credibility. --Philcha (talk

) 12:10, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

That's right. The plot summary of Shane was incorrect for the longest time by giving the wrong ending, and that is the kind of thing that would give Wikipedia a bad rap with readers. I don't know how that originated, but it may have come from an incorrect secondary source. If you see the film itself (and the ending, probably a copyvio, is on Youtube), you can see how it actually ends. So I totally disagree that reliance on the primary source is a WEIGHT issue; if anything it is a verifiability issues. On this "NOT" question: While Gavin is certainly correct that plot-only articles are undesirable, there may be exceptions to that. Perhaps there should be an article on the plot of Ulysses, for instance. I just don't think it belongs in this particular policy, as it elevates plot issues to the far more weighty things that Wikipedia indisputably should not be. Stetsonharry (talk) 12:20, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Gavin, I know you want WP:NOT#PLOT to remain in this policy because you have a thing against articles about D&D characters. It's okay that you have a thing against articles about D&D characters. But it's not okay that you want to enforce that viewpoint through this policy page. If "lack of significant real-world coverage" results in an article not meeting various content policies (and that claim is dubious — even after Equazcion's attempt to sneak that into WP:V), what does that have to do with this policy? If an article in that state already does not meet other policies (and which policies exactly?), having a section in this policy would be redundant. You wouldn't even have to mention this policy, just the other policies.

If "significant coverage" does not exist about a particular story, it's not "undue weight" for the article to summarize the story. Once that coverage has been written, that's when "undue weight" comes into play — when deciding which opinions and viewpoints to put in the article. You could say that the King Claudius article is giving undue weight to the view of Charles Boyce, since the views of Charles Boyce are the only ones the article cites. But if the article didn't cite Charles Boyce, there would be no opinion given undue weight. All articles on Wikipedia lack credibility. That's because you never know what who wrote what and when. Regarding "critique", opinions are opinions. They are not facts we're dealing with. It's not "undue weight" to cite Shakespeare and his play Hamlet in the King Claudius article. I want to know who he is and what does he do. That can easily be summarized from WikiSource. What Charles Boyce thinks about the character is not the priority. If the views of Charles Boyce conflict with another source, then you can start talking about undue weight, and neutral point of view, and how best to summarize their views. --Pixelface (talk) 12:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

• The straw poll above clearly indicates that there is no consensus for
  WP:IDHT - tsk. Colonel Warden (talk
  ) 12:42, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Correct, there is no consensus to have it here. There is also (unfortunately) no consensus to remove it, and since it is already here, that means it stays here, does it not? Nutiketaiel (talk) 13:44, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
    • That is the rule (on rules), right? Anyway, the average article usually is okay; it is the children's TV shows/movies and/or articles on new TV shows that have too much plot. Some of the speculative fiction TV shows/movies/books have too much plot also. Resurr Section (talk) 13:58, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
      • Nope, per policy. Policies and guidelines describe standards that have community consensus is surely emphatic enough here. Hiding T
        • It does have community consensus. The straw poll is a list of all the players in this endless war who happened to notice the straw poll. But if you look at the response of the average editor who encounters an article on a minor character for the first time, their inclination is to think it has too much plot and tag it for deletion or merging. Resurr Section (talk) 14:04, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
          • Irrelevant unless you take account of those editors who create the articles in the first place. And a failure to comment means you can't count their opinion, per Wikipedia:Consensus: "silence can imply consent". But as I said up above, there never was an exit strategy so we're free to move the debate on from whether it should be in this page to a debate about what consensus means. Good luck with that. I'm quite clear on what our polcies direct us to do. Hiding T 15:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
            • In other words, because of the history of this battle to save some WoW/D&D/SF text, in which the text was added in the heady early days on Wikipedia , a small group of editors will repeatedly attack until the rules on using secondary sources to write articles are not enforced for that text. Resurr Section (talk) 15:11, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
              • Good luck to them.
                WP:V deal with that. Hiding T
                15:34, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
              • You started editing 20 days ago (under that username anyway). What history do you know about? Over one-third of Wikipedia's articles fall under
                ignore it. --Pixelface (talk
                ) 15:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
                • I'll dispute your numbers in asserting Over one-third of Wikipedia's articles fall under Category:Fiction, as per [7]. Hiding T 08:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
                  • Look for yourself. --Pixelface (talk) 01:32, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
                    • I'm disputing that over one third of articles fall under the rubric of
                      WP:PLOT per [8]. Hiding T
                      15:20, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
                      • Yes, I know that already. And I'm familiar with that story in the Signpost. I also know that the study was based on a database dump from January 2008. It's currently May 2009. Could show me where in the study it says how many articles fall under Category:Fiction? I just pointed you a tool (that I used) that will give you that information. Have you used it? --Pixelface (talk) 03:21, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
                        • The tool you pointed me to won't prove that over one third of articles fall under the rubric of
                          WP:PLOT can relate is going to be less than one third. Not every article within Category:Fiction is relevant here, is it? Hiding T
                          11:07, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
                • Reply Obviously I had a previous incarnation. I stopped editing Wikipedia quite a while ago because of this sort of fighting, and am not posting using any other username at present. I care about quality and improving Wikipedia as much as the next person, and it is my view that secondary sources are needed, at about one per paragraph, to justify anything on Wikipedia. I am a huge fan of fiction, which is why I can say that the error rate in these plot summaries is high. I view policy as set by precedent and usage, which is why the current state of affairs is fine the way it is; PLOT is discouraged, but practiced, and over time excessive text by fans is pruned by more mature fans--sometimes even the same editors as they grow up. PLOT is needed because people refuse to abide by NOR, N or V. Resurr Section (talk) 19:51, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Nutiketaiel, if that were true, I could add "Wikipedia is not a place for Nutiketaiel to edit" to this policy. Then I could contact editors who don't like you (or wait for them to show up), and then there would be no consensus to remove it. But since it's already here, does that mean it stays here? No. A person might edit a policy page after consensus to add, no consenssu to add, or no discussion whatsoever. Editors make
      bold edits to policy all the time. But text within policy must have consensus to be policy. You do not have to get consensus to remove a portion of policy (that has no consensus to be policy) before it can be removed. It needs consensus to be here. A policy must have wide acceptance among editors. --Pixelface (talk
      ) 15:43, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Drilnoth. I'd really like to have a more productive discussion on relocating WP:NOTPLOT, or rewording it. But it's frustrating when someone comes along and says "it must stay exactly the same", and others are more than happy to take the bait and respond with "it must be destroyed!" Can we take a step back and see how futile these arguments are? Wikipedia works on consensus building. Randomran (talk) 16:19, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

One interpretation (and that's all that is) of the straw poll is that:

• The concept of PLOT is still strong enough to be policy, and certainly at least a guideline (all the Yes voters, and a good chunk of "No" voters) (And that is, to be clear, that plot summaries are appropriate, but that they shouldn't be the only aspect that constitutes a work's coverage)
• PLOT as written into NOT is possibly misplaced because it implies plot summaries are not appropriate at any time. (most of the No votes)

Thus, I think the prudent action is to move it, which begs the question, is it strong enough to be policy (thus likely requiring a new page) or is it a good guideline (allowing it to be moved to WAF without question). The way I read the !votes, I'd believe it edges on policy, which is why I think we need to think about a new policy page that can go into depth to encompass all the thoughts and issues relating to this. --MASEM (t) 16:25, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

In answer to Randomran, I am not making bald assertions that

WP:NOT#PLOT

should not removed from this guideline. The rationale for keeping is overwhealming in the sense that plot only articles conflict with Wikipedia's existing policies and guidelines.

1. Plot only articles fail
   WP:V
   because reliable, third-party sources are necessary both to substantiate material within articles and to give credit to authors and publishers in order to avoid plagiarism and copyright violations;
2. Plot only articles do not contain any measure of encyclopedic coverage as described by
   WP:INUNIVERSE
   ;
3. Plot only articles conflict with
   WP:INUNIVERSE
   refers);
4. Plot only articles conflict with guidelines, such as
   WP:N
   because evidence of notability cannont be confered from coverage of a topic which does not impart real-world information about its subject matter by repeating or summarising the primary source.

Overall, the achilles heal of any argument that plot only articles should be allowable is a failure to recognise that as the level of real-world coverage becomess less and less, a plot only article will come into increasing conflict with other content policies. Simply removing

WP:WAF in verifiable evidence that it enjoys consensus support at guideline level.--Gavin Collins (talk|contribs)

07:45, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Let's have a competition to see who can pick the most holes in Gavin Collins's last post, with a special prize for the most holes in a single item.

Or let's do something productive, as A Nobody suggested in ""not plot" is something supported by a vocal minority only whereas compared to the few who comment in threads such as this versus those who actually work on and come here to read the articles suggests that overwhelmingly the community thinks spinoff articles are acceptable. And I cannot help but wonder how much we would actually improve these articles if we devoted more time to adding references and out of universe information than on Guideline pages and in AfDs."

I'm not an all-out inclusionist, but this discussion is almost a satire on the follies of deletionism. --Philcha (talk) 08:12, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

This discussion is not about inclusionists vs deletionists. I can see the point you are making, namely the main argument against about having a policy about plot only articles that fits within the framework of Wikipedia's existing policies and guidelines is that it would facilitate the deletion of articles which do not meet

WP:NOT#PLOT is not a magic bullet that can guarantee an article will deleted. In my experience, most plot only articles get merged in topics that provide real-world evidence of notability. As the level of real-world coverage becomess less and less, a plot only article will come into increasing conflict with other content policies. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs)

08:37, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

How do you refute his point 4, "Plot only articles conflict with guidelines, such as

WP:N because evidence of notability cannont be confered from coverage of a topic which does not impart real-world information about its subject matter by repeating or summarising the primary source"? Resurr Section (talk

) 09:03, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

And for that matter, how do you reconcile having lengthy plot descriptions with the

WP:PSTS policy? Resurr Section (talk

) 09:24, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

OMG, there's another one! If point 4 simply said, ""Plot only articles conflict with guidelines, such as

WP:N

" I'd agree with it as a bald fact. The addition of "such as" conflicts with [[WP:WEASEL}}.

WP:PLAGIARISM. --Philcha (talk

) 13:46, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I find incredible Gavin Collins "I have never participated in an AFD discussion in which a policy or guideline has been invoked, and the participants automatically agreed that this was the correct approach". As far as I can see "delete, not notable" is the 3rd most common phrase in AfDs, behind "keep per ..." and "delete, per ..." --Philcha (talk) 13:46, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I need to repeat for the aggressive group of people hoping to wikilawyer their way into getting what they want without the consensus to do so: if you don't have consensus to remove something, as you clearly do not, you cannot remove it by claiming there is no consensus to keep. That's exactly opposite of how everything works here. PLOT has always been in this policy, has always been supported, and a coordinated campaign by a small but vocal group of people who don't want to play by the rules don't get to change the rules with an argument of "we don't have the support to change it but we win anyway". I've not seen such a calculated attempt to turn Wikipedia policy on its head in a long time. DreamGuy (talk) 14:05, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Always? Really now! In any case, this is, as far as I can tell, the first widespread debate as to whether the addition has consensus. If it shows there isn't consensus for the inclusion, then it cannot be considered a "a widely accepted standard", as all policy pages say they are right at the top. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 14:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

In answer to Shoemaker's holiday, its not that simple. Wikipeida's existing framework of policies and guidelines do have consensus, and as the level of real-world coverage in a plot only article becomes becomes less and less, it will come into increasing conflict with them. Philcha can dismiss these concerns with a bald assertion that they are mere weasel words, but as I have made clear at the start of this section, Wikipedia policy don't exist as a restaint on editorial autonomy as Philcha might have you believe; rather it is there to support the creation of articles which anyone can edit without the need for editorial oversight by any other authority (such as a panel of experts). --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 14:54, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Are you claiming that WP:NOT#PLOT has consensus to be policy? Because it doesn't. And if you're saying that a section of policy page that has no consensus to be policy should remain on that policy page, you're dead wrong. You absolutely do not need consensus to remove something from a policy page before it can be removed. Otherwise, whenever someone makes a bold addition to a policy page and someone wants to remove it, it would have to be debated for days until there was a consensus to remove it. No, sections of policy must have consensus in order to be policy. They must have wide acceptance among editors. The

Wikipedia:Check your fiction existed though[15]. The {{policy}} template was created March 7, 2004[16]. That template was added to Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not on May 12, 2005 by Radiant!. Before that, this page was in Category:Wikipedia official policy as early as October 7, 2004[17]. Before that, this page was in Category:Policy thinktank as early as September 30, 2004[18]. WP:NOT#PLOT clearly had support from some editors when it was proposed, and clearly has support from some editors now, but policies describe standards that have community consensus. WP:NOT#PLOT does not. --Pixelface (talk

) 02:47, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Consensus can change. This historical excursion fails to recognize that true Policy is not written down; it exists in the minds of users. A lot of articles on fiction are written by children and children cannot be expected to understand the need for reliance on secondary sources to guide the article. Instead, they are convinced that the reader will be entertained, as they were, by a retelling of the plot twists, revelations in the backstory and the other plot devices. Resurr Section (talk) 03:13, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

This gets covered by WP:Competence is required. Anyone, regardless of age, can edit, but if they can't comprehend policies and guidelines, they aren't mature enough to edit.—Kww(talk) 03:25, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that WP:NOT#PLOT existed in the "minds of users" before it was added to this policy? And if "

The Empire Strikes Back, Quatermass and the Pit, Casablanca, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Pattern Recognition, etc. Any secondary sources would be consulting the primary source anyway. Now, what does The Crow and the Pitcher mean? If you want to include analysis in the article, fine, cite a secondary source. Have conflicting interpretations been published? Fine, cite them. But you don't need analysis to answer the question "What is fictional work X?" or "Who is fictional character Y?" If you want to insist on analysis, okay, Wikipedia editors can and do provide their own analysis all the time, like it or not. If a child, say a fan of Naruto, makes a plot-only article and it's nominated for deletion for "violating WP:NOT#PLOT", do you think that would make them more likely to add secondary sources to plot-only articles in the future or more likely they'd just start vandalizing after seeing all the other plot-only articles (many of which have survived multiple AFDs)? I suppose they might even start redirecting every plot-only article they see because "them's the rules." --Pixelface (talk

) 16:35, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

What I am suggesting is that editors need guidance. Written rules are needed for some people. The continuing war on the absolute requirement of citing secondary sources to write a tertiary source is misguided. Resurr Section (talk) 03:53, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Anything that has secondary sources can be the topic of a Wikipedia article. The examples you provide are of classics of civilization that have secondary sources. Joseph Campbell commented on Star Wars. If secondary sources are found for Elaeniaro Anime, great. Resurr Section (talk) 03:53, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

• The complete lack of willingness of most people to build a consensus here is embarrassing. I won't be surprised if we're arguing about "keep exactly the same" versus "remove it entirely" one year from now, unless people wise up and recognize we have to find a middle option to build a consensus. Randomran (talk) 15:28, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

• That's what I was trying to do in my post above, but as always the discussion descended into a completely unproductive battle between two equally uncompromising sides. Here's an idea: Why don't we try to compromise by discussing the following section... –
  T • C • L
  ) 15:40, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

The only issue where I feel we can compromise on is the issue raised by Philcha is that

WP:AFD, and maybe he has a fair point. I am open to expanding the wording, so that it is not a bald prohibition without rationale, but is clearly explained.--Gavin Collins (talk|contribs)

16:12, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, this just won't work. Since plot only article fail

WP:NOT#PLOT from a content guideline to a style guideline is not acceptable. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs)

15:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

So how about a content guideline, rather than a content policy? It doesn't have to be

WP:WAF

that it is moved to. As I said, this won't perfectly suit everyone... I'd rather see it made an essay or something, but that isn't going to happen because it is unreasonable. I'm trying to help find a middle ground that will suit everyone to some extent, even if it isn't quite what any one person wants.

Anyway, I feel that plot-only articles can pass

T • C • L

) 15:54, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Plot summaries have nothing to do with sources - or at least, it's not just a sourcing. It is possible in many cases (classical works) to source from secondary materials without touching real world aspects (though if you can do this, you likely have more than enough secondary sources to fill out the real world side). This is a balance of content issue, almost an extension of NPOV's part about undue weight. --MASEM (t) 15:57, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm a little worried that demoting it to guideline is weaker than what consensus suggests. Several "no" !votes on the straw poll suggest that it's still a valid argument but express the concern that editors may take its presence in NOT to immediately AFD articles that are plot-only, and another group of "No" !votes suggest that the presence of PLOT here in NOT implies that plot summaries are never appropriate. Both of these are very valid concerns, but they still emphases that a plot summary should be part of , but not the only aspect, of the coverage of a work of fiction. Only a handful of "no" !votes can be read to outright disagree with this factor. This suggests that there's still the strength of a policy behind it but just in NOT. Unfortunately, save for my suggestion of NPOV (as this really comes down to an issue about balanced coverage), there's really no other long-standing existing policy this could be moved into, and even the NPOV is not the best home for it as is. If the consensus agrees that if we're trying to avoid creating a new policy page but we need to move PLOT off here to avoid the implications of what NOT implies, then maybe WAF is the best place, but there's something that bothers me about demoting the concept to a guideline given that it has the reasonable strength to be policy. --MASEM (t) 15:57, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

"Reasonable strength to be policy"? No. It. Doesn't. Get over it. It should not take take this long to remove a section of policy that does not have consensus to be policy. Masem, your stubborness, and your recent re-addition of WP:NOT#PLOT to this policy, is absolutely ridiculous. --Pixelface (talk) 01:28, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

This discussion is the new consensus - what has happened in the past is not longer relevant per

WP:SS that make up coverage). --MASEM (t

) 03:55, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

There is no new consensus here Masem. Just still no consensus for WP:NOT#PLOT to be policy. Like I've been telling you for more than a goddamn year. And what happened in the past[20] [21] is not irrelevant. If that were true, you would have never started those ANI threads on me and user RFC on me for my removals of WP:NOT#PLOT — removals, btw, which are totally justified by the RFC above. The RFC above shows that there is no consensus for WP:NOT#PLOT to be policy (if you were ever having trouble believing that). Accordingly, Shoemaker's Holiday removed WP:NOT#PLOT from this policy on April 23, 2009 and you re-added it — again. Care to explain that? You're an admin. And you've re-added WP:NOT#PLOT to this policy more than anyone else on Wikipedia. [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] I am sick and tired of your obstructionism. Enough is enough already. You just can't let it go, can you? --Pixelface (talk) 15:14, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

You're not even reading the conversation or attempting to work on collaboration on a solution, you're just reiterating which is not helping. Again

Consensus can change

, and Shoemaker's RFC above is the current reassessment regarding PLOT which overrides any other previous discussion or consensus on PLOT. That includes any past assertion that PLOT has consensus or no consensus to be in NOT. Now, even I agree that reading the !votes that there's likely good reason to move PLOT out of NOT, but the concept behind it is reiterated through a majority of all !votes and thus appears to still be a general policy, that coverage of topics should not be solely plot summary. Taking it out of NOT can allow for more discussion on the point and strongly assert that PLOT is not a reason for deletion.

The only reason I've reverted Shoemaker's change was that the RFC was still on going and until it is completed we should not be making changes to what the RFC is discussing, even his straw poll said that it would be evaluated after 2 weeks and that change was not two weeks after the RFC. --MASEM (t) 15:36, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps we should start a discussion at

T • C • L

) 15:47, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I could live with this. But maybe we should brainstorm some other locations besides WAF. Maybe there are better locations. Let's try to ignore the few people who insist on a hardline either way, unless they truly are a majority. Randomran (talk) 15:58, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Your misssing the point; most of the policies and guidelines have some prohibition against plot only articles. For instance, a plot summary might come from a reliable source, but guidelines such as

WP:BK#Criteria specifically prohibit the use of flap copy as evidence of notablility. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs)

16:05, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

If plot only article are already prohibited by multiple other policies, as you state, then why are you so fixed on having it redundantly listed here? If your assertion is truly correct then removing it from this policy shouldn't affect anything. Locke9k (talk) 20:08, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

The kind of users who create excessive decriptions of plots (children, in other words) will not understand what a primary vs a secondary source is. They need a simple explanation of what is an is not appropriate. Resurr Section (talk) 20:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

anyone who uses flap copy is clearly not doing it right, for several reasons, including the prohibition on teasers: sections on plot here have to give the ending. One can usually tell flap copy because the plot description is too short. But this is a separate problem: how to write them competently. (the worst of it is the episode section, written in TVguide style, which is possibly even worse)

While I dislike deletionism, I'm not in favour of fancruft. Attempting to strengthen the policing of fancruft is pointless, because fan-boys hugely outnumber good editors, and policy changes designed to exclude fancruft have tarnished WP's image and very probably alienated newbies who might have become good editors with a bit of gentle guidance. I've done a bit of lateral thinking and proposed at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Make_each_article.27s_class_visible_to_unregistered_users what I think might be a win-win solution to issues like this. --Philcha (talk) 16:18, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Just as a point: for every article that says that WP's current "cruft removal" is tarnishing its image, there's likely another article that criticizes WP for documenting fiction in too much details over the weight of other topics, also tarnishing its image. The pendulum of what degree to fiction that we cover has swung back from being too deletionist and is approaching a midpoint. It is important to get this pretty close to right. (and yes, the class idea is good to help encourage editors to get involved) --MASEM (t) 16:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

citation for that, please. I think the ratio is probable 5:1. pro fiction, though it of course depends on where you look. What I think really tarnishes our image here is inconsistency, and, even more, bad writing. There are lots of ways to do an encyclopedia, but people expect serious reference works to have some degree of uniformity and quality. DGG (talk) 17:23, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

• you are all aware of current guidance: Articles about fictional topics should not read like book reports; instead, they should explain the topic's significance to the work. After reading the article, the reader should be able to understand why a character, place, or event was included in the fictional work. That's been around since before we had the guideline/policy split, when it was one of Wikipedia's rules to consider. It's currently guidance over at
  WP:PLOT. Personally, I'm thinking we p[erhaps do need a separate policy on fiction the way we have a separate policy on biographies. Eventually I would imagine every subject area is going to need its own policies. Hiding T
  10:09, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

But I still think it's one aspect that's being thrust into the limelight far too much by this. Far better to handle it as part of a coherent set of guidelines. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 16:12, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I've got a proposal at

Advertise

Should this be on the watchlist? I know that it is on CENT, but as we may recall, FICT was placed on the watchlist and received a good proportion of the RfC traffic from there. Arguably changing NOT is a bigger deal than creating FICT. Thoughts? Protonk (talk) 20:46, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I have opened an Arbcom case at

Well, that's a request; open is another matter. Seems to be short on parties. Cheers, Jack Merridew 15:57, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I've commented, and knowing ArbCom, this is way too premature of a step to be taken. --MASEM (t) 15:58, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Either this is very good timing or well organised concert party [28][29][30]. I would like to think this is all in good faith, but action represents an unnecessary escalation. Shoemaker has already started an RFC, an Arbcom case. What next for heaven's sake? --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 16:25, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I notice that one of the diffs above is my protection of the article. That's rather unfortunate, since it seems to imply that I am part of this "well organised concert party" - I'm not sure what that means, but it doesn't really sound good. I would hope that discussion here can establish whether or not there is a consensus to change policy, without animosity, personal attacks, grudging admittance of good faith, or anything in between. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 16:56, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

You might start by restoring the longstanding consensus version of the article. By letting someone who clearly does not have consensus make a change and protect that version -- whether intentional or not -- you are taking a side. The status quo must be preserved until an actual consensus is established, otherwise someone has successfully gamed the system. DreamGuy (talk) 17:06, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

You protected it in a state where it contradicts long-standing policy. Normally I'm not big on "wrong version" arguments, but in this case I am. It's been brought up at ANI. Please note that I don't accuse you of wrongdoing, just that I think that preserving stable policy is one of the rare cases where the correct action would have been to revert SH's change while the article was protected, and am trying to get consensus to do so at ANI.—Kww(talk) 17:08, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I started a discussion at

WP:AN. Needless to say, I didn't think the situation required urgent administrator intervention. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK

17:11, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I have already commented on SheffieldSteel's talk page. I suggest that next time a administrator blocks this policy from being edited, he do his detective work before hand, not after, rather than use

WP:WRONG as an excuse to make a sudden intervention, which in this instance seems to bizzarely reward the edit warrior. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs)

17:22, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Following

protection policy shouldn't be cause for trouting and insinuations that I'm colluding or acting in bad faith to protect a version of the article that I disagree with. Apologies if this makes no sense; I'm sure Gavin sees his actions as perfectly rational but I cannot personally see how. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK

17:50, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

You might be right, but I think a word on two (like a warning) on this talk page would have worked wonders - at least then we would know where you coming from. It seems to me that

WP:WRONG seems to be the only policy which administrators refer to nowerdays, and then only in retrospect.--Gavin Collins (talk|contribs)

17:54, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I think you guys are unfairly jumping on Sheff. There is no reason to insinuate that he acted to aggravate an edit war. His actions were within a reasonable interpretation of policy (arguably crystal clear if you read only PROTECT). And he reversed his actions when questions were raised about them. Protonk (talk) 17:58, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it's an innocent mistake. Sometimes the long-standing version is obscured when you look at the most recent edits. It helps to check back at what was the policy a month or so ago, but even then, you might stumble across a fleeting version. Randomran (talk) 18:03, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Per WP:POLICY (shown above) it really doesn't matter if the text has been around for a while.... Hobit (talk) 18:07, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

We're really talking about

WP:PREFER, here. Randomran (talk

) 18:18, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Really? Which part? I'm seeing nothing that applies to this discussion there. Hobit (talk) 18:23, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually the decision to protect the article as-is was taken deliberately. The reason I did not revert to a pre-edit-war version was because I did not want my personal views to be reflected in my admin actions. I believe policy shouldn't be changed without a consensus to do so, and I believe WP:PLOT should be part of WP:NOT. My reading of protection policy (specifically the section linked to by

WP:PREFER) gives me the option to revert; I decided not to revert in an attempt to avoid giving the appearance of acting improperly. That didn't work out so well, and here we are  :-/ SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK

18:43, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for trying. It's tough to handle these kinds of contentious issues. Randomran (talk) 19:21, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

← (ec) I'll agree with Protonk here (once again) and suggest that we are always supposed to AGF. While I'm sure it's not intensional, I think that maybe we're looking for a scapegoat to blame, and Sheff got caught in the crossfire. Perhaps a lot of it stems from the difficulties in achieving a community consensus for items like NOTPLOT. From my vantage point, it looks like a lot of great writers are starting to show some signs of fatigue and frustration. We're trying to take something that is

• • I take pleasure in finally being able to agree with Gavin's initial statement--though, alas, not his subsequent ones. . Arbcom has twice opened cases on this, and, each time, refused to decide the content issue, instead deciding the question before it on the narrowest possible behavioral grounds. The only actual content issue i can recall their ever dealing with is fringe science, and they decided it in such a way that there have been multiple cases about it there and elsewhere ever since. If they were to actually decide content guidelines, it would indeed mark a revolution, and I am not sure a desirable one. My own view is that they're a den of wild beasts, unsafe to anyone in the vicinity. Best avoided, because the results will be perhaps unexpected but certainly disagreeable.. I do not think anyone on any side of any issue has ever has ever gone away from a decision (or non-decision) there satisfied. I don't disagree with subsequent comments about an apparent conspiracy. If the fiction-positive people were to be able to mount a conspiracy, it would be the first sign of unity they've ever shown. I see no reason why an admin in his right mind would permit editing this part of the policy in any direction until there is some evidence of consensus. DGG (talk) 23:59, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

You now, despite never having any consensus to make any changes, the PLOT section when it was restored reads: "The coverage of a fictional work should not be entirely plot summary." ENTIRELY? So if it's 99.99% plot summary it's fine? That's NEVER been what the plot section was for. In fact, by saying entirely it's basically encouraging huge plot summaries, which is the exact opposite of what this section of NOT has always been about.

You might try reading this "plot" template, which gives a better idea of how plot has historically been covered here:

This article's plot summary may be too long or excessively detailed. Please help improve it by removing unnecessary details and making it more concise. (Learn how and when to remove this template message)

I don't think ANYONE who has made any comments here was seriously arguing for an article to be entirely a plot summary, and if anyone has they've clearly mistaken Wikipedia for a blog or personal page or something. This is absurd.

What we need to do is go back to the version of this section before the months of edit warring happened and wait until there is a clear, demonstrated consensus to change it. The plot section encouraged "concise" plot summaries when appropriate, not plot summaries that can be so long that they are in danger of being the entire article if an external link or something gets deleted. DreamGuy (talk) 21:08, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

• No, what we need to find is a middle ground. Per
  WP:POLICY we shouldn't be stating things in policy that don't have consensus. The RfC shows that there isn't consensus for WP:NOT to host a comment on plot. That said, there is a strong, admin-heavy, group that thinks it should be here and are unlikely to be flexible on the topic even in the face of the clear fact that NOT#PLOT lacks consensus. If changing "merely" to "entirely" is too much of a step, then I'm not sure how we are going to see any compromise. I see it as a small first step away from a policy that lacks consensus to be here. Hobit (talk
  ) 21:36, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Oh, and I agree with the tag. Good editing style does dictate that per
    WP:WAF. But it's not a reason to delete or a reason to not include (which is largely what WP:NOT is about), it's a reason to improve (which is what WP:WAF is about). Hobit (talk
    ) 21:56, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
    • I don't really agree with your assessment of the RFC. An RFC is supposed to be a discussion-a search for consensus- not a vote. All the RFC showed was what the initial impression of a bunch of people was when they were forced to characterize their position as falling in one of two categories. It did not show that no consensus wording can be reached for inclusion within this policy. We need a new RFC without a premature strawpoll and without a few highly vocal individuals polarizing the debate at every turn.Locke9k (talk) 13:37, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

The question asked was whether plot summaries should, in principle, be discussed in WP:NOT. If over 50% of people are opposed, irregardless of the wording, I don't see how any specific wording is going to get consensus. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 14:34, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. I'm more than willing to try to find some middle ground as frankly that's the only way we are going to get anywhere. But complaining about a poll as a way of judging consensus is silly. There is no other viable way to get input from a large number of people. We use polls for AfDs, the Admin bit and all sorts of things that require community-wide input. Now we need to figure out what to do about it. Hobit (talk) 15:39, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

WP:NOTMEMORIAL was intended for mainspace. Our tradition and current practice is that it does not apply to userspace of now deceased contributors. This policy note is sometimes misquoted, unsuccessfully, with respect to wikipedian memorial pages The text needs to be modified to clarify that it is not policy that past wikipedians may not have memorial pages.

Proposed text (new text in bold):

Memorials. Wikipedia is not the place to memorialize deceased friends, relatives, and so forth. Subjects of encyclopedia articles must satisfy Wikipedia's notability requirements. This does not apply to the userspace of formerly productive wikipedians.

--SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:16, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Aye Anything like this or suitably similar. People can do nearly whatever the hell they want in user space, we can at least make a clear note for memorials. --Tznkai (talk) 01:08, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Agree Keep it simple here in the NOT policy. Then, we work on getting the proper guidelines established for the user space. —

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05:52, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Disagree Specifying here that the policy does not apply to userspace effectively endorses the use of user pages as memorials and arguably conflicts with other NOT policies, such as WP:NOTMYSPACE, as well as other WP policies such as

WP:UP, which clearly states that people cannot "do what they want" in user space. Some overlap between policies that generally make the same point is good for consistency and reduces unnecessary debates. This is not a neutral proposal to clarify an existing situation and a more detailed debate is warranted than this 'simple' suggestion implies. As the OP effectively notes, WP:NOTMEMORIAL has been quoted by several users as an argument against the use of user space as a memorial which suggests that there is some disagreement about whether or not the policy should apply... regardless of whether 'convention' suggests it currently does or doesn't. AngoraFish 木

09:33, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

• comment community consensus seems to be favoring the ability to establish memorial pages in this case. I don't see a reason why we couldn't move forward on several fronts at the same time. Just a thought. —
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  11:26, 26 April 2009 (UTC)