Talk:2006 Nukuʻalofa riots

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I'm rewrote for clarity and style, but the article probably still needs work. References need to be put into a better format (currently one is in that format -- dunno what to call it). It's just late here and I'm too tired to do it. We need better refs for lists of buildings destroyed. Comments on youths in "gangwear" are based on the Sione Langi photos. Link to reports of problems in Tonga with young men who have returned from the US imbued with "attitude"? It's in the main Tonga article, I think. These guys definitely don't believe in talangofua any longer. Zora 09:25, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tau'olunga, your reports are much appreciated. However, we're in sort of a bind here, since we're supposed to use published sources rather than info volunteer by random users. I'm not going to remove any of your reports, since I would consider you a trusted source and a reliable eye-witness. However, other folks may be more up-tight about this sort of thing. We should source things to published material whenever it's possible. I imagine that there will be reports and articles published later that can replace some of the reportage.

However, I did remove some things you wrote that might be considered speculative, as to what rioters intended or who they were.

How do you know they intended to attack the palace? How were they stopped? Was the whole police force in place defending the palace, leaving the rest of town undefended? Did they shoot at an angry mob marching on the palace? Give us the details that you personally observed and then we'll see what we can say without speculating.

As for most of the trouble being due to a few hard-core criminals ... I'd guess that you're right. I suggested this line of thought, after all. However, we're going to have to limit ourselves to what can be established from the evidence at hand, and at the moment that's your eye-witness observations (not allowed, strictly speaking) and the Sione Langi photos. The photos suggest US gangbangers to me, but I can't say that, since it's personal opinion. All I can say is that some rioters were dressed in gang attire, and that someone had spraypainted "Warlords" on a looted shop. We have to let readers draw their own conclusions, until we have some official report in hand, with a list of arrested ringleaders and their personal histories.

Scary stuff. I haven't been in Tonga for twenty years. If you'd asked me twenty years ago if something like this could happen there, I would have scoffed. Zora 02:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your edits are much appreciated --Tauʻolunga 19:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Could someone load a picture on the Commons, I think this article needs a photo or two. I'd do it myself, but I'm not that good with the copyright stuff. – Zntrip 22:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A photo would be great, but it would have to be a photo that some wikipedian took themselves (or the friend of a Wikipedian took and gave permission). If you have such a photo, upload it with one of the following three licences:

• GFDL is the most restrictive licence (of those I'm listing) for a photo, because while anyone can use it, they also need to include several pages of GFDL text, so no newspaper would use it in practice.
• Creative Commons SA_BY means anyone can use it so long as they attribute it to the original photographer.
• Public domain, if you don't care.

See Commons:Licensing for more information.

Photos which appear in newspapers or on their websites cannot be used except maybe under fair use; I'd avoid them entirely. For photos which appear on an individual's website or blog, you could ask them politely to consider releasing the photo under one of the above three licences. We can't accept photos under a licence which says "Non commercial use only" or "For use on Wikipedia only".-gadfium 23:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Done, someone else may place them --Tauʻolunga 04:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1. 17:29, 23 November 2006 (hist) (diff) Image:Dayafter.jpg (top)
2. 17:28, 23 November 2006 (hist) (diff) Image:Looters.jpg (top)
3. 17:27, 23 November 2006 (hist) (diff) Image:Startfires.jpg (top)

I'm disturbed by some of the changes Zntrip made to this article. He removed references to Sione Langi's pictures (youths in "gangsta" attire, "Warlords" spraypainted on looted shop) and replaced them with generalizations. Since the evidence for what I wrote is right there in the pictures, I don't see why he would remove the detail. I also do not understand why he claims that the crowd was attacking the royal palace. None of the news sources I've read say anything at all about that. They attacked the Prime Minister's office, but that's NOT the palace. What evidence does he have for an attack on the palace? I've posted this on his talk page as well. Perhaps he will explain. Since Tau'olunga thought that the palace was attacked as well, either it was a widespread rumor, or the news sources were supressing it. Zora 02:20, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would first like to say that I appreciated Zora’s edits and that all the edits I made were in good faith. The part about the Royal Palace being attacked, I thought I read it some were, but since I can’t source it, I’ll remove it. As for the generalizations, I stand behind those edits. This is my reasoning: “gangsta” isn’t an encyclopedic adjective; the exact word that was graffitied isn’t noteworthy and more may have been written; Sione Langi wasn’t specifically mentioned because there were more photographers that just him. – Zntrip 03:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but the evidence was in the photos that he took and put up. Perhaps it would help if I linked to the specific photos? I think "Warlords" is significant because that's a widely used fictional gang name, and it's the sort of thing that would be adopted by a bunch of young men starting a gang. As for the gangbanger attire -- when I see a kid wearing a hoodie and pants three sizes too large for him, ready to fall off, then I think "that kid wants to look tough." He may not BE tough, but he aspires to toughness.

What we're circling around here is the identity of the young men smashing and burning the shops. Both Tau'olunga and I know that a number of young Tongan men have been deported to Tonga from the US and Australia because they were involved with crime. They have brought a ugly new hard-edged style back to Tonga with them. Tau'olunga thinks that such folks spearheaded the rioting. I think that it's very possible. We can't SAY that, because it's speculation. All that we do know is the pictures, which is suggestive. (Oh, and I've been talking to Tongans here in Hawai'i, with family back in Tonga, and they want to blame the deported kids. This may just be a way of deflecting blame, however ...) Zora 06:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So what should be changed? The specifics of the graffiti and the name of the photographer aren't that important. I just reworded it. – Zntrip 22:47, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I differ in that I think that a spray-painted "Warlords" on a gutted shop is an undeniable piece of evidence. I mentioned Sione Langi's name only to reference the photos, but that can be replaced with a link. Perhaps Tau'olunga can get us a picture we can put up here.

Have graffiti been imported into Tonga by the deported young men? I don't recall seeing any graffiti when I was there.

As for the clothing ... I'll agree to leaving that out. I'm remembering the absurd outfits my daughter wore when she was a young teen; she thought tight and sparkly was the height of chic. She dressed like a streetwalker, even though she went to a girls' school, was generally well-behaved, and had never so much as gone out on a date.

The big question in everyone's minds is, I suppose, just how much did the People's Representatives have to do with this debacle, how much of it was disaffected youth, and how much will be blamed on ordinary Tongan folk. We don't have any evidence yet. I'm very much afraid that the royals will refuse any further concessions to democracy, and try to jail all democrats, not just any who might have been directly responsible. Zora 00:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It was probably rumour only. Or the activists directly gave up, as the palace was well guarded by army and police. It is not damaged. --Tauʻolunga 02:34, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Very interesting. I went back to the site where I had seen Sione Langi's photos, Planet Tonga. It has moved, and all the riot photos that show people have been removed. So the photos to which I was referring no longer exist on the net. There's also news that I haven't added: now seven deaths claimed, 354 people arrested, and Clive Edwards claiming that people are being beaten up by police (that's from some New Zealand website). We also haven't reported the speeches by the PRs that were broadcast over Radio Tonga, as reported by Matangi Tonga. That's old news. We should have put it up. Those speeches are disturbing. They veer between commending the rioters, threatening more if the PRs don't get what they want, and telling the rioters to stop. We should quote from them. Zora 03:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Try Image:Burnedshop.jpg. But do not ask me who is Ezekiel; he seems to be around already for some time. --Tauʻolunga 07:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone know if the Australian and NZ force had a special name; like Operation Astute in East Timor? – Zntrip 19:10, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Aotearoa Indymedia (www.indymedia.org.nz) wrote a lot about what's been happening in Tonga and 2 activists spent a week over there. Maybe some of their writing could be used too. IndyKid —The preceding

I have renamed the article from 2006 Tonga riots to 2006 Nuku'alofa riots, since the riots were only based in the capital city. I also changed the name ad interim to be 16/11, since the event has since taken on this name. Change it back to 2006 Tonga riots if you feel this is wrong. Kransky 03:28, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Clive Edwards wikipedia page linked seems to be about another Clive Edwards, which is an english drummer. 129.125.143.187 (talk) 14:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)Jake[reply]

Thanks, I've fixed it.-gadfium 20:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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