Talk:2009 Giro d'Italia

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to

   reliable sources): c (OR

   ):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the
   neutral point of view
   policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have

   suitable captions

   ):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

--maclean (talk) 04:59, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

• In the Infobox, the map caption could be more concise and informative. Perhaps: "Overview of the stages; route from Venice to Rome covered by the riders on the bicycle (red) and distances between stages covered by bus or car (green)."

• "Teams"
  • "Fuji–Servetto, on the other hand, was simply declined an invitation at first,[7]" - the citation does not say they declined, but rather they were not invited.
    • I'm not sure what the problem is. "Not invited" and "were declined an invitation" are synonymous, aren't they? Reference 6 makes it clearer - RCS Sport included 14 ProTour teams in the list. Cofidis, Euskaltel, Française des Jeux and Fuji Servetto all miss out. However the first three of these had already hinted they did not want to ride the Giro, while the weakness of the Fuji team perhaps explains their snub. so would it be better to ditch reference 7?
      Talk · What keeps her up) 02:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply
      ]
      • You are right. I read that wrong. I missed the "was". --maclean (talk) 06:27, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The 22 teams who took part in the race were:[9]" - that citation does not list the teams. That ref talks about re-organizing the 10th stage.
    • It used to discuss both. Will fix.
      Talk · What keeps her up) 02:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply
      ]
• "Race previews"
  • "Andrew Dampf (2009-04-16). "Lance Armstrong confirmed for Giro despite surgery". Yahoo! Sports. Retrieved 2009-04-20." - seems to be a bad link.
  • "It was also noted that three time trials, including the insertion of an unusually long time trial mid-race, might favor a rider such as Leipheimer.[16]" - the citation mentions that there are 3 time trials but doesn't seem to support the rest of the sentence.
• "Stages"
  • "The tenth stage was planned to exactly mimic a stage from the 1949 Giro d'Italia, in homage to the winner of that stage Fausto Coppi, but the race organizers were forced to alter it to cover only the Italian side of the Alps rather than also visit France, as there were concerns over the availability of radio communication in the area.[9]" - the citation does not attribute the stage to an "homage to the winner of that stage Fausto Coppi" + please add " | agency = " to the cite news templates to attribute Reuters.
    • Will add one that does. There's plenty out there.
      Talk · What keeps her up
      ) 02:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC) [reply]
      • The citation added does not support the sentence. -maclean (talk) 21:25, 8 October 2009 (UTC) [reply]
        • Yes it does..? Initially scheduled to take the peloton over five mountain passes in homage to one of the most spectacular day's racing in the Giro's history (stage 17 of the 1949 race from Cuneo to Pinerolo saw Fausto Coppi stage one of the greatest solo breakaways in cycling's history), the stage has had to be redesigned due to a series of landslides. What is the problem?
          Talk · What keeps her up) 07:56, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply
          ]
          • Article: in homage to the winner of that stage (and the 1949 Giro itself) Fausto Coppi
          • Reference: in homage to one of the most spectacular day's racing in the Giro's history --maclean (talk) 15:24, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • I still don't see what the problem is, but I added three more references that support this claim. Hopefully at least one is suitable?
              Talk · What keeps her up) 06:00, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply
              ]
              • It is important for Wikipedia to accurately reflect what the references say. The reference previously provided said the Stage was a tribute to an historic day of racing but the WP article said it was in homage to one man generally and the entire 1949 Giro. From the new refs:
              • Refdailypeloton (5/17/2009) - "in homage to one of the most spectacular day's racing in the Giro's history"
              • Refdailypeloton (5/19/2009) - "his year's "Cima Coppi" (highest point in the race), paying tribute to Fausto Coppi's extraordinary solo victory"
              • Reflondoncyclesport - "The 2009 Giro d'Italia paid homage to Fausto Coppi" - Does this reference violate restriction 1 of
                WP:ELNEVER
                wrt Sporza Live?
              • Reftelegraph byline - "Luca won stage 10 of the Giro d'Italia as the country's greatest ever cyclist - Fausto Coppi - was remembered on the 60th anniversary of his most famous day in the saddle."
              • Please remember,
                WP:V says "verifiability, not truth". I can appreciate the difficulty here as these refs are all saying something different about this race is a tribute to something different from the 1949 Giro. In these cases, it is probably best to elaborate, providing context, and attributing the sources directly, like "The dailypeloton wrote whatever was 'in homage to one of the most spectacular day's racing in the Giro's history'[19] as Fausto Coppi was remembered for whateveritwasthatwassoamazingaboutthatday."[20] --maclean (talk) 18:11, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply
                ]
• "Race overview"
  • "out-dueled" - is this a cycling term or a euphemism? If it is a euphemism, please select a more literal term.
    • Meh, not a cycling term at all, but not a euphemism either. It is a little slang-y, I suppose.
      Talk · What keeps her up) 02:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply
      ]
  • "wearer" - is wearer actually used?
    • Used by whom? It is a word. What would you suggest instead?
      Talk · What keeps her up
      ) 02:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC) [reply]
      • I guess it is a word [2]. Sounds weird. --maclean (talk) 06:27, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Menchov consistently got the better of Di Luca, and with his superior time trialing skills he was able to emerge as Giro champion." - unclear who "he" refers to.
    • Is it? For one, Menchov is already mentioned as Giro champion, and he's also the subject of the sentence. I'm not trying to be difficult here, maybe this is something that makes perfect sense to me but not others since I've been reading this article several times a day for months, but surely you don't want "Menchov consistently got the better of Di Luca, and with Menchov's superior time trialing skills Menchov was able to emerge as Giro champion.", do you?
      Talk · What keeps her up) 02:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply
      ]
      • If you have to explain it, then it probably is not as clear as you think it is. A danger of reviewing your own work is that, as you have inundated yourself with all the background research, it makes complete sense in your own mind but someone without that advantage stumbles. You don't have to constrain yourselves to re-arranging these exact same words in one sentence: you can elaborate or eliminate something and/or make it 2 or more sentences. -maclean (talk) 18:11, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The youth classification was won by Kevin Seeldraeyers, who remained consistent after Thomas Lövkvist, who for a day even led the general classification, lost tremendous time on Stage 16." - one too many "who"s in this sentence makes it difficult to follow.
    • Hmm. Grammatically, its probably simplest to eliminate the subordinate clause after Lövkvist's name, but the fact that Lövkvist led the general classification for a day is interesting and adds additional perspective to his fall. I wouldn't want to chop it into two sentences after Seeldraeyers' name, because then we'd get "...won by Seeldraeyers. Seeldraeyers remained consistent..." and that's even worse than what's there.
      Talk · What keeps her up) 02:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply
      ]
      • • Good revision?
          Talk · What keeps her up) 05:48, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply
          ]
• "World Rankings points" - which reference can confirm the info in this section?
  • I'll add one. The UCI publishes rankings after each ranking event and (thankfully) archives the old ones.
    Talk · What keeps her up) 02:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    • I changed the table, per citations pulled from the UCI website. I'm a little unsure if listing every last point earned in the Giro is encyclopedic, but I figure it's easier to subtract than add, so I put them all in. Top ten for rankings is pretty standard.
      Talk · What keeps her up) 07:56, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply
      ]
• After reading 2009 Giro d'Italia, Stage 1 to Stage 11, I think Horrillo's accident and the resulting protest afterwards is extraordinary enough to mention in this article on the race. -maclean (talk) 15:24, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• How many riders, total, competed on these 22 teams? Could you add this to the "Teams" section?
  • Each team sent a squad of nine, for 198 all together.
    Wikipedia:Embedded list with respect to this article; I think both "Jersey wearers" and "Other classifications" is best organized as lists. I am also aware of some instability over the last week with 78.13.197.173's edit being reverted — but this seems to be over issues of style rather than anything substaniative. I hope 78.13.197.173 signs up for an account and contributes more in the future. -maclean (talk) 23:57, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    I as well. Do you have an opinion on the repetition of "Giro d'Italia" in the lead, as the IP and I briefly discussed?

    Talk · What keeps her up) 00:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply

    ]

    What exactly do you mean by I think both "Jersey wearers" and "Other classifications" is best organized as lists. ? What revisions do you propose? Thanks for reviewing!

    Talk · What keeps her up) 02:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    • • I altered the puncuation above to make it more clear. It is me writing to anybody reviewing this evaluation. Those sections come close to violating GA criteria 1b. I'm saying that I aware the situation but am not going to take any action as I don't think the suggested alternatives would be better in these particular situations. maclean (talk) 21:25, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    
    Thank you once again for the review. Not that this should have influenced your decision on passage, but I hope you can appreciate that I've been working my tuchus off on this one, and will continue to do so on the stage articles (large-scale revision to both coming in the next few hours).

    Talk · What keeps her up
    ) 05:07, 14 October 2009 (UTC) [reply]

    Doping

    Is the positive doping test given by

    Talk · What keeps her up) 03:03, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    If he is to be removed from the 2009 Giro results due to that test, it should be mentioned here. Otherwise, I think it should not be here but only on Bosisio's article. --EdgeNavidad (talk) 09:49, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    Well, I'm sure there's every likelihood he will, just like Di Luca, but I don't know if the 27th place finisher being removed will be as newsworthy as the 2nd place finisher being removed. So we may not really hear about it.

    Talk · What keeps her up) 07:03, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply

    ]

    Random points and questions

    I'll just leave all my anal points and questions from the copyedit here.

    • Any reason why "22" is in numbers in the lead and spelt out in the body (even inconsistency there)?
      • I'm never quite sure what the rules on spelling out numbers are supposed to be. At the FAC, Sandy Georgia said that Lars Bak earning "2 points" in the World Rankings section was an error, but "170 for Menchov and two for Bak" seems odd to me (numerals for one and spelling out the other). Surely "one hundred seventy for Menchov and two for Bak" is unnecessary. If twenty-two should be spelled out, then let's spell it out.
        • WP:ORDINAL is the MoS ruling on this. As far as I see it, 22 can be either, but it should probably be consistent within the article. Apterygial 02:39, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply
          ]
    • I reckon you could easily merge Teams and Race previews and favorites.
      • How so? The flow is illogical is if "teams" follows "favorites," as we need to specify the teams before we specify the riders. Do you suggest nesting them both as subsections under a higher heading (maybe ==Race preview== ===Teams=== ===Overall contenders===?)
        • Probably not at all, I thought it could work, but in retrospect the current format is more logical than anything else. Apterygial
    • Why "Milan – San Remo" and not "Milan–San Remo"?
      • We were told at the FLC for List of teams and cyclists in the 2009 Giro d'Italia that team names need to be endashed and not hyphenated, and any name that includes a space needs the endash spaced, apparently to avoid confusion. This led to a massive movement of team articles, and apparently this race article. Currently, we seem to be debating "Sanremo" versus "San Remo" on that article's talk page. The spacing of the endash here seems to be an application of that guideline.
        • And then you have "Garmin–Slipstream" and "Silence–Lotto", but also "Acqua & Sapone – Caffè Mokambo" and also "LPR Brakes – Farnese Vini" (seems as though having multiple words either side of the dash influences whether there is a space or not). Apterygial 02:39, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • The guideline as explained at the FLC was if one of the sponsor's names is spaced, the endash needs to be spaced, too, so it's clear that the sponsors are "Acqua & Sapone" and "Caffè Mokambo" and not "Acqua" and "Sapone-Caffè Mokambo" I think this is a little silly, but it's what we're abiding by.
            Talk · What keeps her up) 02:50, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply
            ]
            • This guideline is found at
              MOS:ENDASH.--EdgeNavidad (talk) 07:43, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply
              ]
    • Many overlinks when the Race overview section starts, teams/some riders linked before.
      • What's the rule on this? I tend not to link when a rider or team is already mentioned in the section or subsection, but should I not if they're mentioned several screen lengths above in an entirely different section?
        Talk · What keeps her up) 01:18, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply
        ]
        • My understanding has always been that once linked in the body the link should not be repeated (with the exception of the cases outlined under Repeated links at
          WP:OVERLINK). But it's no big deal. Apterygial 02:39, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply
          ]
    • Maybe add a bit to the effect that the Di Luca saga has not yet been completed in the Race overview section. Apterygial 03:56, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    Assess at A-Class

    I'd like to assess this article at A-Class. Protocol is for a proposal to be made and, if supported by two uninvolved editors (aka not me), the article can be promoted. So if anyone agrees, please say so.

    Talk · Contribs) 06:09, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Superseded by the FA promotion :-D

    Talk · Contribs) 03:30, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Comments

    Here are some additional comments/suggestions.

    • Suggest changing "the many medium mountain and mountain stages" to "the many mountain and medium mountain stages". To the non-initiated "mountain and mountain" is quite jarring.

      I'll also just note that the phrase "medium mountain" doesn't appear in the rest of the article; you use "intermediate" in the description of the route.

      The two are essentially synonyms. RCS, the organizers of this race, refer to such stages with a verbose phrase like "stage on medium summit arrival." So does Unipublic, the organizer of the

      Talk · Contribs) 22:10, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply

      ]

    • "marked closely" in the lead is cycling jargon, though I think I know what it means (he stayed with him on breakaways). Could it be "defended vigorously against attacks"? Or more of a rephrase: perhaps "his closest challenger, Danilo Di Luca, attacked repeatedly during the mountain stages of the last week, but Menchov stayed with him" or "but Menchov successfully defended his lead". Not sure these are right, but I would like to lose "marked".
      • Done.
        Talk · Contribs) 22:34, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
        ]

        I think you should lose "any", too; after all, the race is in the past; there's nothing uncertain about the attacks. There were attacks, he defended against them. What does "any" mean here? Mike Christie (talk) 22:45, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • The last sentence of the lead says "doubt"; you could add that Di Luca is still in the appeals process to make it clearer why there's doubt, rather than Di Luca's results having been annulled (or whatever the word is).
      • Done.
        Talk · Contribs) 22:34, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
        ]
    • I just noticed "Palmarès" in the infobox. No doubt this is a standard term; if there is no satisfactory English word to use, could we have it link to
      Bicycling_terminology#P
      , at least?
      • Not done, as that would require an edit to {{
        Talk · Contribs) 22:34, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
        ]

        Fair enough; I think it would be worth doing, but it's obviously a minor point. Mike Christie (talk) 22:45, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • "Every city that hosted a stage start or finish in the first Giro was visited in this edition": "edition" just sounds weird to me. Is it standard usage in cycling? It's not ambiguous, just not a usage I know. Would "visited in 2009" be OK instead?
      • Done.
        Talk · Contribs) 22:34, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
        ]
    • "The type of stage together with the average speed of the winner decided the time cut – the amount of time a cyclist can use to finish the stage before he is eliminated from the race." Two comments here. First, is it worth adding "time cut" to the
      Bicycling terminology
      article, and even linking it? Second, I don't like the sequence of tenses: it starts in the past tense, then switches to present tense, which implies to the reader that we're now reading a definition; but then "the stage" instead of "a stage" reads as a reference to this race, not a general definition. I'd at least change it to "a stage", but it could also be something like this: "The type of stage together with the average speed of the winner decided how much time each cyclist would be allowed to finish that stage before being eliminated from the race", and cut out "time cut" altogether, since it's apparently not familiar enough to be used without an inline definition.
      • Done.
        Talk · Contribs) 22:34, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
        ]
    • "Fuji-Servetto were originally declined": I see what you mean, and my edit was incorrect, but I think it needs rephrasing in that case -- it's too easy to misread it as I did.
      • Revised to make the organizers of the race the subject of the sentence and not Fuji-Servetto. I greatly dislike "Fuji-Servetto were" anyway.
        Talk · Contribs) 22:34, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
        ]
    • Would a {{
      seealso
      }} for the "Race overview" section?
      • I don't think so. The section here provides an adequate overview of the race, sufficient for a description of a race of this size as a whole. The stage breakdown articles provide greater detail, such that if they appeared here, the article would be ludicrously big. Consider other articles, on shorter races, such as
        Talk · Contribs) 22:34, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
        ]

        Indeed I think you are. Maybe we could get another opinion on this, but it seems to me that this is a perfect example of

        summary style, which typically uses {{main}} hatnotes. Mike Christie (talk) 22:50, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply

        ]

    • "Lövkvist had, for one day, led not just the youth but also the general classification.[42]" His lead was after stage 4, and we're talking about stage 16, so perhaps this should be pointed out to the reader. How about "Lövkvist had, earlier in the race, led not just the youth but also the general classification, though only for a single day."
      • Done.
        Talk · Contribs) 22:34, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
        ]
    • "The most visible cause for the protest occurred during the eighth stage, when Rabobank rider Pedro Horrillo sustained numerous fractures and head injuries ...": that "occurred ... when" construction is a bit ugly. How about "The most visible cause for the protest was Rabobank rider Pedro Horrillo's accident during the eight stage; Horrillo sustained numerous fractures and head injuries ..."?
      • Done.
        Talk · Contribs) 22:34, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
        ]
    • "the criterium being neutralized – that is, each rider getting the same time as the stage winner regardless of when they actually finished": I think this could make it clearer that the organisers agreed to the neutralisation; this was not something that happened during or after the stage, it was a change made before the stage. How about "the criterium being neutralized – that is, the race director agreed that each rider would get the same time as the stage winner regardless of when they actually finished"?
    • I suggest unlinking all the team names in the "Race overview" section; all the teams are linked in the earlier list of teams, and this is just prose, so the aesthetic comments with regard to tables don't apply.
    • "Top ten of the individual standings after the Giro d'Italia": could this just be "Top ten individual standings ..."?

    That's everything I could see. Off out to dinner; will have a look when I get back. I hope this is helpful rather than annoying; I think it's a fine article. Mike Christie (talk) 21:37, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Certainly. If we've gotten to the point of quibbling over individual words, that's a great sign. Thanks.

    Talk · Contribs) 23:14, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply

    ]

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    External links modified

    Hello fellow Wikipedians,

    I have just modified 8 external links on 2009 Giro d'Italia. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

    • Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120306110200/http://www.rbaction.net/fly.aspx?layout=content&taxid=69&cid=1470 to http://www.rbaction.net/fly.aspx?layout=content&taxid=69&cid=1470
    • Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/6QYaTVVuF?url=http://bleacherreport.com/articles/172314-low-key-levi-leipheimer-is-a-contender-at-giro to http://bleacherreport.com/articles/172314-low-key-levi-leipheimer-is-a-contender-at-giro
    • Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/6QYakm8mz?url=http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=14713 to http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=14713
    • Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/6QYbzDEBw?url=http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=14867 to http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=14867
    • Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/6QYcIyHWb?url=http://web.utsandiego.com/news/2010/Feb/17/pa-cyclist-who-testified-against-landis-to-plead/ to http://web.utsandiego.com/news/2010/Feb/17/pa-cyclist-who-testified-against-landis-to-plead/
    • Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100206033507/http://english.gazzetta.it/More_sports/01-02-2010/epo-2-years-for-luca-but-ll-go-to-the-cas-602853952848.shtml to http://english.gazzetta.it/More_sports/01-02-2010/epo-2-years-for-luca-but-ll-go-to-the-cas-602853952848.shtml
    • Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091101000411/http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/getObject.asp?MenuId=MTU2MzU&ObjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=NDk4OTk&LangId=1 to http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/getObject.asp?MenuId=MTU2MzU&ObjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=NDk4OTk&LangId=1
    • Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/6QYd9T0rl?url=http://www.uci.ch/templates/BUILTIN-NOFRAMES/Template3/layout.asp?MenuId=MTU2MzU&LangId=1&RankType=RIDER&RankId=151 to http://www.uci.ch/templates/BUILTIN-NOFRAMES/Template3/layout.asp?MenuId=MTU2MzU&LangId=1&RankType=RIDER&RankId=151

    When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

    This message was posted before February 2018.

    regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check
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    Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:27, 24 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]