Talk:2021 Belgian Grand Prix

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Hold up...

Provisional classification lists everyone as done one lap + no points awarded. Who's right?... Admanny (talk) 17:22, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm unable to find a source that states that no points were given in this race. The info in formula1.com clearly states that half points were, in fact, given.
talk) 17:40, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply
]
Wait a second, the formula 1 website says no points were given... weird.
talk) 17:42, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply
]
Check FIA results, the points are there. Must just be a bug/mistake on the F1 website. But on a different note, the race results mention a 6,880 km lap - I guess it's because Verstappen didn't start at the start line, but at the end of the pitlane, so he didn't do the full 7,004 km. Shouldn't this be mentioned in the infobox? (instead of 7,004 km) Miki.krok (talk) 17:49, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That site is down for me, saying to "follow the latest news on Facebook". But yeah, if that site used to say points were given, let's leave them there. -
talk) 17:52, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply
]
From FIA.com: "Results have been calculated in accordance with Article 51.14 of the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations, namely at the end of lap 1 being the penultimate lap before the lap during which the signal to suspend the race was given. However, for the determination of points, Article 6.5 is applicable, the leader having crossed the Control Line 3 times, therefore complying with the requirement for the leader to have completed more than 2 laps in order for half points to be awarded". So officially it's only 1 lap. 84.250.68.20 (talk) 17:54, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Miki.krok: - race distance is calculated from the starting line (pole position). However, pole position and the finish line are off-set by 128m
SSSB (talk) 08:42, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is also why no fastest lap is awarded if a result is called at 1 completed lap (meaning that the leader was on lap 3 when the red flag was shown). On lap 1, the drivers cross the start line, then the finish line, but do not cross the finish line a second time (therefore setting a "timed" lap) until the end of lap 2. Mbdxecw2 (talk) 19:12, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure we will ever have an awnser for that question. It is the most plausible reason I've heard so far though.
SSSB (talk) 22:13, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is the reason, not a plausible reason. The times per lap are taken from finishline to finishline. Lap 1 starts when the lights go out (in this case the SC drove away) and because nobody starts at the same place there is no valid way for timing the first lap because everyone drive a different length for the first lap. 2A02:A420:26:33EA:2:2:4DDA:D7B0 (talk) 12:26, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. For the same reason, circuits like Circuit Gilles Villeneuve would be able to count a fastest lap on lap 1, as the control line is in front of pole position there. Mbdxecw2 (talk) 00:23, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the FIA's documents (most importantly the timing page) it seems that lap times on the first lap are never actually taken. Rather, the data is given for the time of day at which each driver completed lap one. And then the timing sheet shows how long it takes to complete subsequent laps. I doesn't appear to be a matter of "the timing line is behind pole so we can't record the lap time on lap 1". Of course, this is
WP:OR, but I thought it worth pointing out. SSSB (talk) 12:39, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply
]
I guess with a mixture of tracks where you could count a timed lap on lap 1, and tracks where you couldn't, the most consistent way is to just never count lap 1, as you say. I wonder if they discount (for fastest lap purposes) any lap with a standing start (even if it's a restart)? Mbdxecw2 (talk) 18:34, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Reflecting sources while avoiding editorialising

This is a highly unusual event in Formula One history, and the need to handle how we write about it differently than usual has already caused a fair amount of discussion. I think it might be a good idea to start compiling sources in order to make note of how the event is described in them and to work towards a consensus on how we should describe it.

  • The Guardian calls the event "farcical" and makes note of the fact that this was a race without any racing. Another Guardian article puts the word race in scare-quotes in the title.
  • Reuters call the event "a three-lap farce".
  • The BBC makes note of the race not including racing.
  • Autosport describe the event as a "farce" and also use scare-quotes for the word race.
  • The Race also uses the word "farce".
  • Racer magazine's reporting seems to be using less emotive language than other outlets, though correct me if I'm wrong.
  • Motor Sport magazine makes note of the "classic F1 confusion".

Looking at several of these patterns I suspect that the usage of the word "farce" probably stems from Lewis Hamilton being widely quoted as using it, while the scare-quotes on "race" may be related to statements made by Alfa Romeo and McLaren. There's probably a lot more to dig through, but I think establishing who actually said what and allowing opinions to be reflected in the article while keeping a

WP:NPOV
on Wikivoice statements is important.

HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 04:45, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If lots of sources call the race a farce, then we should report that. We should also include Hamilton's complaints as well as rebutals to it (namely Masi and Domenicali the former arging there was a chance of some green flag racing, and the latter saying the three safety car laps were not based on commercial reason. I'm also sure we can find a third-party source that defends the decision. Maybe an ex-F1 driver tweeted "It's good that the fans at least saw the cars, even if the weather didn't permit racing", or something to that effect. However, I think the key is to read the whole of the sources we compile, not just the headline. Then, we are as close to neutral as possible. We can only be as neutral as the sources allow.

It's also important to make a distinction about which aspects where are were a farce/critised. i.e. If we write Hamilton called the event a "farce" - that isn't neutral, because it is isn't accurate. It would have to be Hamilton called the decision to run three laps behing the safety car a "farce" Same with the Masi critism, nobody (whose opinion is noteworthy/as far as I'm aware) is critising his decision not to allow green-flag racing, only to run the three laps behind the saftey car.

So long as we follow this, we should be fine.
SSSB (talk) 08:53, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wording in lead

Reading through sources I am forced to question how appropriate the wording of "The 2021 Belgian Grand Prix was a Formula One motor race held on 29 August 2021 at the Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps" in the lead is. This possibly carries over to numerous other cases where the word "race" is used, however the prominence of the opening sentence makes this more significant. Several of the sources mentioned above, as well as others like this Racer magazine article, or this paywalled Autosport article either question whether the event was actually a race or outright reject the notion. I think a wording which clarifies that from an official or formal perspective a race did take place while also making it clear that many do not consider the event to have been an actual race would be more appropriate and reflective of sources. I don't know what this wording would look like, but it should be considered. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 07:23, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • The 2021 Belgian Grand Prix was a Formula One motor racing event held on 27-29 August 2021 at the Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps? I know we argued about if Grand Prix refers to the weekend or the race and I seem to remeber that we concluded that we could use either, as sources don't agree (though I could be mistaken)
Otherwise we would have to leave it as it is - it is officially a race. Then later in the article (not sure if it appropriate in the lead) we can mention that the terminology of "race" is contentious.
SSSB (talk) 07:44, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In this particular case breaking with the existing convention and going with your suggestion is likely the best option. While in almost all other cases I continue to hold the view that the lead should merely state the date of the race (as that is when most of the competitive action usually takes place) while the main body should include the full detail of the dates, in this case all of the competitive running took place on Saturday 28 August, making the current wording arguably misleading in a similar way to how using the "event held over 32-34 Smarch" wording in the opening sentence of the lead may mislead some readers into believing that the grand prix was a multi-day endurance race on other articles. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 08:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Grid position for Perez

What the heck do we do for Perez in grid position? - article still has 7 just now in the qualifying table - others who started at the back have this noted - so should there be some note for Perez starting at the back as well. (I mean even the stewards weren't sure of the situation here, so ....) 141.92.129.45 (talk) 16:29, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Qualifying tables always reflect the officially declared pre-race starting grid. Race tables reflect the actual starting positions.Tvx1 00:09, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gary Anderson

Gary Anderson said cars could run safely in wet condition at a reduced speed that was dictated by either the lead car or an FIA mandated delta time. 2A02:C7F:FC54:C400:1C02:96DD:EA3E:327B (talk) 05:51, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, an we have a source for this. Secondly, I'm confused by this statement. That sounds like a glorified VSC to me. I don't understand how a race would like that (all the more reason for a source).
SSSB (talk) 06:54, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Fastest Lap

Nikita Mazepin was given the fastest lap award. I tried to correct but it was removed soon after. His time was a 3:18.016 CarbonF11240 (talk) 14:02, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It was removed because Nikita Mazepin wasn't awarded the fastest lap. The race classification doesn't credit lap times to anyone.[1] The lap-by-lap chart shows no lap times were recorded.[2] And even if lap times were recorded and the fastest lap reconised, Mazepin still wouldn't have fastest lap because he set the time at the end of lap 2, but the results were taken at the end of lap one - as explained here:[3] SSSB (talk) 14:14, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Just to add a further to what SSSB has stated. You may have heard some people (perhaps online) mistakenly comment that no fastest lap was awarded because Mazepin finished outside the top ten. Top ten is the requisite for the awarded point, not a requisite for the fastest lap itself. In this case, fastest lap was simply not awarded at all. See here and here. The Belgian GP is skipped over entirely while the award is given in all other races, including when the driver with FL finished outside the points (Max at Azerbaijan for example). DB1729 (talk) 14:47, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2021%20Belgian%20Grand%20Prix%20-%20Final%20Race%20Classification.pdf
  2. ^ https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2021_12_bel_f1_r0_timing_racelapanalysis_v01.pdf
  3. ^ https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.mazepin-rues-missed-opportunity-to-gain-more-experience-in-the-wet-at-spa.34dSLw6qofq21BzSapWSF.html

Introduction and article structure changes

Hi just to let you know I have expanded the article introduction and put more detail in it. I have also restructured the article so the race classification now comes immediately after the race report and before the post-race stuff as I thought it made more sense to have it there . I think the article flows better because of this . What does anyone else think?--MKL123 (talk) 15:17, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. In general I think it belongs best together, but given the length, I agree. SSSB (talk) 19:33, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thsnks. Also would you say my intro detail is fair and accurate? I would like a second opinion. MKL123 (talk) 21:25, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction phrasing too complicated?

I rewrote some parts of the introduction and fixed a few mistakes in the rest of the Article. I think the introduction is written a bit too complicated and might be difficult to understand. Does anyone else think the same? Computergy22 (talk) 20:32, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fine MKL123 (talk) 07:08, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Computergy22: (because I am very familiar with the race and Formula One in general, I understand fine so,) could you please specify which parts you find complicated and difficult to understand. Just so I have a bit of an idea how to improve it, thanks. SSSB (talk) 09:47, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm new to Wikipedia editing so I might be wrong but some sentences feel too long and are a bit sluggish to read. I would split them up a bit and maybe remove some redundant information. Computergy22 (talk) 16:09, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What is the length?

On the bar on the right, there are two different pieces of information: Course length (7.004km) (4.352mi); and Distance (6.880km) (4.275km.) I normally consider myself to be familiar with F1, but I do not understand why there is a difference. Is there a difference between the two, like say the racing line and the line if driven through the centre of the track? Something else? MarsyJ3 (talk) 03:47, 5 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • The circuit is 7.004 km if you do a complete lap. That's the course length. Distance refers to the distance covered over the entire race, which in F1 is the minimum number of laps that exceeds 300 km (except for Monaco). So for a normal race at Spa, the Distance field would read 308.176 km. This race, however, was only one lap and started and finished in the pit lane. Going through the pit lane is shorter than doing a complete lap of the circuit, hence the discrepancy. 5225C (talk • contributions) 04:20, 5 November 2022 (UTC), expanded 04:22, 5 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @5225C: That's not correct. @MarsyJ3: The race of the opening lap of the Belgian Grand Prix is always 6.880 km (for the current layout), becuase the pole grid slot is 0.124km further forward on the track compared to the finish.[1] Therefore the first lap of the race (from the pole slot to the start of the second lap) is just short of one complete lap of the circuit. 6.880=7.004-0.124 (opening lap length = track length - distance between pole and finish line). It is for this reason that the "scheduled distance" parameter reads 44 laps, 308.052 km, but 44x7.004 is actually 308.176.
    The same is true for the opening lap of virtaully all Grands Prix. SSSB (talk) 08:05, 5 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Both incorrect the race distance is shorter because each driver started the race once leaving the pitlane exit which is placed after the the start/finish staight first corner hence the km distance covered for the one classified lap will be shorter than normal. MKL123 (talk) 18:06, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @MKL123: that's not correct, what I said before is. The official race distance is dependent on the pole position slot. The fact that Verstappen started the race in the pitlane is not relevant when discussing the official race distance.

    This has the consequence that the cars actually traveled less distance than the official race distance, for those reasons. But this is true of any GP, as the drivers don't drive on the circuits centre line (which is used to determine circuit length). SSSB (talk) 22:40, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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