Talk:Ballistic knife

Would be worth clarifying the the article.--74.243.21.61 (talk) 21:18, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Federal ban, right up there with Nuclear Weapons, but most individual states have a state law banning it as well.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 21:20, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I added a citation to Title 15 Chapter 29 Section 1245, which is where the actual text of the law (ban) exists. The citation that was shown for the whole statement of legality seemed to only show legality of switch blades. When in fact the article is about ballistic knives, and there was no citation for the federal ban of ballistic knives. If I have it right, the Ballistic Knife Prohibition Act of 1986, which never passed the house according to govtrack.us, was the implicit citation the article was referencing. The whole thing seemed confusing to me, because a the bill never passed the house but became an ammendment to US Code. See section 1245 of the following HTML document, which refers to an ammendment as the Ballistic Knife Prohibition Act of 1986. http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/15C29.txt PhilosoraptorThinks (talk) 04:04, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually the statute (§ 1245) starts of with a key phrase "in or affecting interstate commerce." This is the exact same term used for switchblades (§ 1242) and is defined under § 1241 (a) thus: "The term "interstate commerce" means commerce between any State, Territory, possession of the United States, or the District of Columbia, and any place outside thereof."

It would seem then that they are only illegal to possess if there is intent or action to sell or buy it over state lines. This would make possession in and of itself legal provided there is no state or local law banning it.Legitimus (talk) 20:49, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Every state has a law banning them, I'm literally going state by state to confirm this. I also, see no military exception as implied in the article.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:52, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll buy that every state likely has a law about them, but not all ban possession outright. In Maryland it is only illegal to "sell, barter, display, or offer to sell or barter" ballistic knives(§4–105). There is no ban on owning them under the state's law and carrying would simply fall under the normal dangerous weapon statute (which doesn't mention them by name, but would apply). By default, this would make owning at home for sake of collection, as well as firing one to test it, completely legal. That is, provided you either made it entirely on your own with no intent to sell, or you bought it before the ban and plan to keep it.

The exceptions for the military is stated indirectly in part (c) "Exceptions." It states that paragraphs 1,2, and 3 of the switchblade law (1244) shall apply to ballistic knives too. Those paragraphs exempt "common carriers" (meaning that UPS, FedEx or the postal service themselves would not be criminals just for transporting them, only who sold them), sale to the armed forces, and carry by on-duty military personnel, respectively.

Would you mind if I paraphrased the cut-and-paste of part (b) you added?Legitimus (talk) 00:11, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

By all means, go ahead. It's funny, I'm finding quite a few states do not mention them at all. As opposed to what all the so-called knife legal experts have been saying for 25 years. The military thing is odd, too. For example, I bought one back in 1986. As a Marine Infantryman, I was surprised at the number of CO's that would flip out if you were seen carrying so much as a pocket knife! I was with 1stBn 9th Marines and had zero problems with my knife collection, got orders to 1st Bn 4th Marines and they made me check all my knives in to the armory along with my personal firearms (firearms I could see, but knives?) I ended up storing my spetznaz knife at a buddy's house because I didn't want the armory guys finger banging it or breaking it. I regret selling that thing, because the US made versions are a disservice to those originals. Still, I've seen City Cops hassle a Marine MP for having his Nightstick in his dar on his way home from duty on base. I can't imagine even the most lenient cop in the world giving a decorated Navy SEAL a pass on a ballistic knife because of the perception of them.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 01:51, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's really cool that you were in the service and also that you actually had one of these. And your experiences are pretty consistent with other people in the military I’ve talked to. Also, I have learned the hard way over many years to be very skeptical of any "knife law experts" on the internet unless they can cough up the specific statute cited and one can independently verify it. Generally I'm dubious of anything that says "legal/illegal for the whole US."Legitimus (talk) 16:01, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, yeah, I'm learning to investigate more of these things for myself now, you actually encouraged me to look more into this one by your edits. I first heard of these knives through the old Phoenix Force books by Gar Wilson in the 70s and 80s, maybe that should get a mention as it was the "Team Leader's knife". I ordered mine right before the 1986 import ban. Years later in the early 90s I saw two firms selling them through the gun/knife magazines: Southern Ordnance and I believe the other was Phoenix Ordnance out of AZ. They were fairly common (under the tables at gunshows in certain states) and I almost picked one up in a pawn shop in 1995, but it felt nothing like the original. I don't know if the manufacturers simply closed up shop or what, but I don't believe I've seen one offered for sale since 1997 at the latest.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 17:52, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also don't forget that ballistic knives may be illegal in some jurisdictions under certain circumstances even if possession is legal - by being carried concealed, either on one's person or in a vehicle; see Coppola's Son Dies in Maryland River Boating Accident, retrieved 5 November 2011; Coppola's Son Killed, O'Neal's Injured The Los Angeles Times, 27 May 1986: At the time, possession of a ballistic knife in Virginia was still legal, yet the suspect was charged with carrying a concealed weapon.Dellant (talk) 20:28, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's the case with most weapons, regardless. A 3" steak knife is legal in California, put it in your pocket, walk outside and if its not visible...it's a concealed weapon. A sharpened pencil qualifies as a "dirk or dagger" there, too and a child's jumprope meets the definition of nunchaku, which is why certain companies will not sell wooden handle jumpropes there.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 21:12, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

True. And someone like you Mike doesn't need to be told about concealed weapons laws. I mainly added the references here for anyone who is curious to know why the ballistic knife was a hot topic in D.C. in 1986; apparently it's now taboo to include them in the body of the article.Dellant (talk) 21:40, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well - where the info came from?
Spetsnaz units use the device called a NRS - Shooting Knife of a Scout (Нож Разведчика Стреляющий НРС-1). But the NRS doesn't have a spring - instead it has a small barrell and a special silenced cartridge in the grip (it shoots bullet - not launch the blade) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.196.80.14 (talk) 07:24, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Doubtful that it was confusion with the NRS series knives, since reports about Ballistic knives in use with Spetsnaz apparently predate their introduction. Of course that doesn't mean they weren't custom made for individual members rather than being a general issue item. 83.70.247.96 (talk) 13:24, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And - please don't delete referenced material. Cite authority and secondary references and sign your comments! Dellant (talk) 02:15, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Does any one have information on legality outside of the USA? I would like to know if any other countries have similar bans or prohibitions? - NDGKH (talk) 22:23, 17 January 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by NDGKH (talk • contribs) 22:20, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Afaik these are prohibited in commonwealth countries and not illegal in middle and eastern Europe (czech republic, slovakia, poland, likely ukraine and russia). Not sure it's illegal in USA either, check this: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s099-2411. "This bill never became law.". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.103.105.40 (talk) 14:07, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the USA, see the thread above.Legitimus (talk) 12:26, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why should they be prohibited? These are toys, and could not be used for combat. Spring could not store (for reasonable time) enough energy to penetrate human flesh covered with clothes and produce adequate harm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.25.232.72 (talk) 05:41, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Per the talk page guidelines: Talk pages are not a forum for editors to argue their personal point of view about a controversial issue, they are for discussing the article itself and ways to improve it, not not to criticize, pick apart, or vent about the current status of an article or its subject. And don't forget to sign your comments and/or edits. Dellant (talk) 21:25, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Don't try and confuse legislators with your "logic" and "intelligent thought." We all know those are worthless for making effective criminal laws. LOL. Seriously, read how the laws in the US came to be in this article. Plus it probably stems from anti-Soviet sentiments.Legitimus (talk) 12:50, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There was no USSR company called Ostblock. Ostblock is just Eastern Block in German, meaning Warsaw Pact countries. Soviet Army did not use these kind of knives, it is a toy. The knife pictured here is probably produced by some creative individual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.25.232.72 (talk) 05:38, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, your unsupported opinion, while undoubtedly intended to be helpful, consists of wholly conclusory statements - without verified references - of information that is also unsupported by cited references. The best way to present a case is to follow the talk page guidelines, find properly referenced material using verifiable secondary sources, then include it in the article, and don't forget to sign your name next time. Dellant (talk) 21:19, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ost means East in german, thus ostblock is translated more or less to east germany, you can translate it on google. Not sure about the claims of ballistic knives as toys, need sources to verify that they were not used.Millertime246 (talk) 21:35, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Again, it's all irrelevant without verifiable references. Neither the original sentence in the article regarding OSTBLOC/OSTBLOCK, nor the criticisms of it are supported by citing secondary reference sources. The fact that OSTBLOC or OSTBLOCK is a probably German in origin, and probably stands for "Eastern bloc" - gets us nowhere. There are not one, but two photos of ballistic knives in the article: one of them was supplied by a Russian contributor, and it's clearly not the cheaply-made, aluminum U.S.-made ballistic knife made by Florida Knife Co. and others in the 1980s. What we need in the article is a verifiable reference as to whether OSTBLOC or OSTBLOCK existed and manufactured ballistic knives for the Soviet Union or other Warsaw Pact nations.

For now, I have removed the OSTBLOC/OSTBLOCK reference - until someone can come up with verifiable references using secondary source material per the guidelines. Dellant (talk) 22:28, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are knifes that can shoot bullets. I think that makes these knives ballistic, and that means the introductory text of this article isn't 100% accurate. --82.171.13.139 (talk) 18:45, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• I assume you're referring to hybrid knife/gun or sword/gun combinations in which the blade is fixed to the weapon and features a separate gun barrel firing a conventional bullet or ball. These have recently resurfaced although they have been around since the 18th century. But "ballistic knife" as defined by available verifiable secondary sources does not include hybrid or combination weapons, but only knives that discharge a self-propelled (i.e. not powered by external forces) blade. What you are looking for is
  Gun hybrid or Pistol sword. Dellant (talk) 14:09, 28 March 2012 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • Okay, thanks for the explanation. --82.171.13.139 (talk) 21:35, 30 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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