Talk:Battle of Das
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Harla and Adal
@Magherbin The Battle of Das wasnt a battle between Ethiopia and the Harla, nor were these kingdoms described as Harla, Harla was described as being a polity/kingdom that fought along these states. Salih's army was vast and consisted of Muslims from various regions and polities, the chronicler lists Harla as being apart of the coalition and differenates them from Adal and others, they didn't play a leading role in the Battle of Das either and after Amda Seyon subjugated Adal he fought a separate campaign against them.
Also I think I talked to you about this before, but there overwhelming academic consensus that the majority of the Muslims he was fighting against in the Battle of Das were actually ethnic Afar or Danakil.
talk) 23:45, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
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- They had separate names due to clan division but were Harla states, such as Hubat, Gidaya or Hargaya. Adal was a Harla state itself there's abundance of references that states this. Read Amelie Chekroun, the statement Adal= Afar has been dismissed by academics its outdated. Afar were occupied by the state of Adal sure hence they were probably part of the armies but it was a Harla state overall. GWB, Pankhurst and Enrico do not even mention Harla as being prominent part of the state, infact enrico mentions adal being led by Hararis but the Hararis are considered under the Harla polity. We are only now connecting the dots in the academic world that Harla were the Harari state and they ruled a vast territory especially the gulf of tadjourah which was Harla territory not Afar. Harla began losing territory to other groups, they did not exclusively inhabit the Harar region, their major strongholds were Zeila, gulf of Tadjourah and the south. Afar desert had Harla civilians as far back as the thirteenth century infact when the Adalites of Harar reached Aussa they had come across Harla who were already established in Afar, as far back as the thirteenth century see p.8 [1] The past historians made errors and assumed Afar represented Adal, this turned out to be false because the dankali state was on the western borders according to several maps. I believe the Afar had some level of influence in Adal but they were not the dominant group in the state and the Harla were incorrectly labelled Afar. See footnote 18 on the new research "For example, he considers that the ruling class of the "Adal" (ie the Barr Sa'd ad-D īn ) was "Afarized" and that the Ḥarla mentioned in the Fut ūḥ al-Ḥabaša were Afar (Morin , 2015: 53). Amélie Chekroun (2013: 195-199) shows that these interpretations are wrong" [2]. If you read her actual text she explains that Afar's territory was recognized west of the borders of Adal then goes on to explain that Harla who were the main population of Adal were led by Salih see p.196-197 [3]. I just noticed you removed sentences of Harla in the article, hence i'm reverting your additions until you gain consensus on the talk page. Magherbin (talk) 05:23, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Magherbin The number of states that were assembled by Salih was vast, the list of them provided by the chronicler was around 3 pages long, I only added the ones I recognized into the info box. Thus it is unlikely that all of these states were Harla. Since there was previous academic consensus there needs to be much more reliable research before we start dismissing accredited scholars. When we talk about Adal in Ethiopian texts, we are not referring to the Adal Sultanate or whatever polity existed in that area prior. The medieval Ethiopians exclusively referred to the Afar people as Adal, and some Habesha today refer to the Afar as Adal[4]. The claim you made that Harla inhabited modern day Afar territory is false, the Danakil depression was inhabited by Afars as early as the antiquity as Kaleb of Axum mentions them in an inscription. Afars have lived in the Dankil basin for thousands of years[5] pg 42 and in fact it was actually the Harla that migrated into lowland Afar territory in the sixteenth century[6] pg 193
- Amelie Chekroun was mostly referring to the Adal Sultanate which occupied the area from Harar to Somaliland. The kingdom of Adal that was mentioned in Amda Seyon’s chronicles has nothing to do with the region of Bar Sa’ad ad-Din as they were in two different locations. The capital of this kingdom of Adal, Talag, has been identified as the Afar settlement of Datag Ali, the word “Das” is an Afar word meaning “memorial of stone”.[7], the Adal in Amda Seyons chronicles appears to have been an Afar kingdom that intervened in the war between Ifat and Amda Seyon per Pankhurst. Not related to the Adal Sultanate. Amda Seyons chronicles described the people of Adal as having “hair painted like that of a women”, this is without a doubt a clear reference to the Afar people. Mora too was also an Afar kingdom. The text also mentions talk) 20:08, 13 June 2023 (UTC)]
- Afar has no meaning in the Dankali language it means desert in Harla, the Adalites were not Afar the Afar were under Adal state for centuries sure, but when the Adal Sultanate collapsed inside Afar territory the Abyssinians assumed Adal was still active in the region when Harla were obviously assimilated by Afar. Harla predate Afar in the Horn of Africa. I think you should read on evolution of people, they dont remain nomadic if they were ancient. It was the Harla that built Aussa town for the Afar despite being in the region since ancient times as you said, farming was introduced by Harla around the thirteenth century (might've been before). Sara Fani explains this "Until today the Awsa is the only region in which the Afar are farmer: agriculture seems to be introduced in the region by the ʻHaralla11, an ethnic group mentioned in the written Arabic and Amharic sources coming from the region of Harar12; according to the traditions, they dried the lake which in the time of their arrival occupied the region of Awsa, to farm, even if Awsa, at that time, was possibly already inhabited by sedentary people.13 A first migration of the Haralla group to Awsa refers to the period XIV-XVII century, may be as a consequence of the ʻAdal submission in 1288 or of the campaign of Amdä Ṣəyon ʻ(1332-1333)." [8]. Adal proper is the area around Harar, due to the Oromo invasion that area was destroyed by Oromo, occassionally the Adalites conducted military activities in the desert (afar) region as it was strategic to hold off an army most likely try to dehydrate opposing forces. Salih the leader of this coalition is from the Harar region and he is buried in Harar, he was not an Afar. Amelie is talking about Adal being independent from Ifat when she discusses Salih, therefore its the same state, i've explained that in the article. Mora was likely a Harla state, it occupied the southern Afar region, this is the region where Adalites moved their capital in the sixteenth century, its to be noted only the southern Afar (around mora state) are called Adal because they were influenced by Adal. [9] Zeila was ruled by the Harla, an individual named Abong Wargar was governor during Imam Ahmed's era. My theory is that the Afar became numerous through their nomadic phase and flooded those regions but much like the sixteenth century, the Harla continued to dominant the leadership of the region. This is my compromise Gidaya, Hargaya and Hubat are going under Harla kingdom in the infobox, we leave Adal and others as ambiguous for now. Magherbin (talk) 10:33, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- @talk) 12:50, 15 June 2023 (UTC)]
- Several references state Salih was the leader of Adal, one can make the claim Imam Ahmed wasnt the leader of Adal since the Adal sultan wasnt at war with the Abyssinians. Sultans are actual leaders while Imams are temporary leaders who arise during times of religious wars. "Arab rule" are used as reference to Harla kingdoms especially in Abyssinian texts as they viewed Muslims as Arab in the region. Hargaya is a well known Harari state alongside Gidaya there's references for this. Harla kingdom is not just referring to a polity but a region it was very large, some states broke away and produced mini kingdoms but that doesnt mean they werent led by Harla people just that they weren't a unified state, Gidaya and Hargaya likely broke away after an influx of arab migrations who had intermarried with Harla but they still spoke a language related to Harla. See map [12] see also Amda Seyon chronicles mentioning the Arabs of Harla. [13]. Dr. Lapiso covers this in his book [14] he includes Harla domain (not state) covering Mora Adal, Ifat, Hargaya, Harar, Ifat etc. Argobba are a breakaway group from Harla their language is similar but they were influenced by other groups. Based on this we can conclude there was some sort of nomadic population that held the territories much like the Oromo/Amhara/Somali population did, what those population achieved in terms of occupying large territory is not a new phenomenon, its what nomadic groups are capable of doing in one stage of their history. Harla dealt with clanist divisions, each clan created states. Regarding p.356-357, Cerulli makes it clear there are two places named Adal one in the Afar desert which most sources indicate southern Afar and Dawaro or near Dawaro. Many of the maps i've seen list Dawaro as south of Harar, while Harar itself is usually located inside the region called Adal, see map on p.209 [15]. Magherbin (talk) 16:47, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
- Remove the states that were apart of Harla. Gidaya, Hubat and Hargaya. The infobox should be
Adal
Mora
Harla
Zeila
Dawaro. - This is my proposal. talk) 22:33, 16 June 2023 (UTC)]
- Why should the Harla states be removed? They're mentioned as separate entity kingdoms. I will accept that if Gidaya, Hubat and Hargaya are mentioned in the article as sending troops in addition to the sultan of Harla accepting Salih. Wiki library servers wont let me access that source since its down but its mentioned by Amelie Chekroun that the Harla sultan submitted to Salih. This source states Salih is from Harar on p.41 and that the Adal army was headed by Hararis on p.65 [16]. Magherbin (talk) 03:43, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, we can mention them in the article. talk) 19:23, 20 June 2023 (UTC)]
- Yes, we can mention them in the article.
- Why should the Harla states be removed? They're mentioned as separate entity kingdoms. I will accept that if Gidaya, Hubat and Hargaya are mentioned in the article as sending troops in addition to the sultan of Harla accepting Salih. Wiki library servers wont let me access that source since its down but its mentioned by Amelie Chekroun that the Harla sultan submitted to Salih. This source states Salih is from Harar on p.41 and that the Adal army was headed by Hararis on p.65 [16]. Magherbin (talk) 03:43, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- Remove the states that were apart of Harla. Gidaya, Hubat and Hargaya. The infobox should be
- Several references state Salih was the leader of Adal, one can make the claim Imam Ahmed wasnt the leader of Adal since the Adal sultan wasnt at war with the Abyssinians. Sultans are actual leaders while Imams are temporary leaders who arise during times of religious wars. "Arab rule" are used as reference to Harla kingdoms especially in Abyssinian texts as they viewed Muslims as Arab in the region. Hargaya is a well known Harari state alongside Gidaya there's references for this. Harla kingdom is not just referring to a polity but a region it was very large, some states broke away and produced mini kingdoms but that doesnt mean they werent led by Harla people just that they weren't a unified state, Gidaya and Hargaya likely broke away after an influx of arab migrations who had intermarried with Harla but they still spoke a language related to Harla. See map [12] see also Amda Seyon chronicles mentioning the Arabs of Harla. [13]. Dr. Lapiso covers this in his book [14] he includes Harla domain (not state) covering Mora Adal, Ifat, Hargaya, Harar, Ifat etc. Argobba are a breakaway group from Harla their language is similar but they were influenced by other groups. Based on this we can conclude there was some sort of nomadic population that held the territories much like the Oromo/Amhara/Somali population did, what those population achieved in terms of occupying large territory is not a new phenomenon, its what nomadic groups are capable of doing in one stage of their history. Harla dealt with clanist divisions, each clan created states. Regarding p.356-357, Cerulli makes it clear there are two places named Adal one in the Afar desert which most sources indicate southern Afar and Dawaro or near Dawaro. Many of the maps i've seen list Dawaro as south of Harar, while Harar itself is usually located inside the region called Adal, see map on p.209 [15]. Magherbin (talk) 16:47, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
- @
- Afar has no meaning in the Dankali language it means desert in Harla, the Adalites were not Afar the Afar were under Adal state for centuries sure, but when the Adal Sultanate collapsed inside Afar territory the Abyssinians assumed Adal was still active in the region when Harla were obviously assimilated by Afar. Harla predate Afar in the Horn of Africa. I think you should read on evolution of people, they dont remain nomadic if they were ancient. It was the Harla that built Aussa town for the Afar despite being in the region since ancient times as you said, farming was introduced by Harla around the thirteenth century (might've been before). Sara Fani explains this "Until today the Awsa is the only region in which the Afar are farmer: agriculture seems to be introduced in the region by the ʻHaralla11, an ethnic group mentioned in the written Arabic and Amharic sources coming from the region of Harar12; according to the traditions, they dried the lake which in the time of their arrival occupied the region of Awsa, to farm, even if Awsa, at that time, was possibly already inhabited by sedentary people.13 A first migration of the Haralla group to Awsa refers to the period XIV-XVII century, may be as a consequence of the ʻAdal submission in 1288 or of the campaign of Amdä Ṣəyon ʻ(1332-1333)." [8]. Adal proper is the area around Harar, due to the Oromo invasion that area was destroyed by Oromo, occassionally the Adalites conducted military activities in the desert (afar) region as it was strategic to hold off an army most likely try to dehydrate opposing forces. Salih the leader of this coalition is from the Harar region and he is buried in Harar, he was not an Afar. Amelie is talking about Adal being independent from Ifat when she discusses Salih, therefore its the same state, i've explained that in the article. Mora was likely a Harla state, it occupied the southern Afar region, this is the region where Adalites moved their capital in the sixteenth century, its to be noted only the southern Afar (around mora state) are called Adal because they were influenced by Adal. [9] Zeila was ruled by the Harla, an individual named Abong Wargar was governor during Imam Ahmed's era. My theory is that the Afar became numerous through their nomadic phase and flooded those regions but much like the sixteenth century, the Harla continued to dominant the leadership of the region. This is my compromise Gidaya, Hargaya and Hubat are going under Harla kingdom in the infobox, we leave Adal and others as ambiguous for now. Magherbin (talk) 10:33, 14 June 2023 (UTC)