Talk:Chelsea Manning/August 2013 move request

24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose, per GorillaWarfare, Sue Gardner, and others. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 00:26, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support reliable sources still call him Bradley.
  talk-contribs
  00:33, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

In 1964, world-famous boxer

Cassius Clay won the heavyweight championship from Sonny Liston, but soon joined the Nation of Islam, and the world quickly accepted new name "Muhammad Ali". For 50 years, that is how the world has worked. -Wikid77

20:00, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support Bradley Manning is what he is known by to most people. Sources still call him that. Also he is currently still a male with that name. If that changes in the future, we can move back. We shouldn't at this point confuse users who are looking for information about this person. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 00:40, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose due to
  MOS:IDENTITY. -- LtGen (talk
  ) 01:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support based on
  WP:COMMONNAME and the vast majority of reliable sources. Kelly ^hi!
  01:12, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per primary policy (BLP and related), as the subject clearly wishes to be identified as female and by the feminine name. Redirects and text will handle any resulting confusion. This illustrates WP's strength - this is a fluid medium, supporting older/dated language and links. Her preferences regarding use of masculine for administrative communication is a capitulation to rigid structures, not her desire generally. -- Scray (talk) 01:17, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
  • What primary policy? there is nothing on
    WP:COMMONNAME is the most widely used in the media. - Knowledgekid87 (talk
    ) 01:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

MOS:IDENTITY (a guideline), which has been cited many times above, is tightly related to BLP, the latter easily trumping COMMONNAME. I am confident that the spirit of BLP requires the current (feminine) title. -- Scray (talk) 01:56, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

MOS:IDENTITY which is yes a guideline has this in the lead, I have bolded the wording as it relates to the title move discussion: "Disputes over how to refer to a person or group are addressed by policies such as Verifiability, Neutral point of view, and Article titles where the term appears in the title of an article." - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:58, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

There is no controversy over the verifiability of her name, and her choice trumps (redirects handle the rest). -- Scray (talk) 02:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

The move discussion is to change the title of the article or keep it the way it is, if redirects handle the rest then what is the harm keeping it as Bradley Manning with Chelsea as the redirect when the majority of media sources are using the term? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:13, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

The harm is that we'd be violating the spirit of MOS:IDENTITY and BLP. Enough, already, with the badgering. -- Scray (talk) 02:36, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for jumping on this, but why exactly does "

WP:ARTICLENAME"? Many participants use this argument (or a similar one) during this discussion, but I have to admit that I can't see any primary/secondary ranking of the Wikipedia policies. Quite the opposite: When it comes to page names, then (obviously) WP:ARTICLENAME should be the first policy to be consulted.--FoxyOrange (talk

) 05:09, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm certainly not an expert on policies generally or BLP specifically, but I believe that BLP is seen as a sort of super-policy because it has real-life implications in a way that most policies about encyclopedia topics don't. YMMV. AgnosticAphid talk 07:45, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strongly Agree. The fact is he can request to call himself "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" if he wants, however, there is also a legal name changing process that must be gone though to change a legal name. The page should be reverted back to "Bradley Manning" until he requests that name change and it is approved by a judge Bwmoll3 (talk) 03:14, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• No, you're wrong. There is no requirement in the United States that a person go through any legal process to change their name. See our handy-dandy article on name change - common law usage-based name changes are entirely legal and acceptable. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:19, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose due to
  MOS:IDENTITY open and shut case. Legality of name change is a red herring, such a public announcement suffices in some jurisdictions, not in others. What Manning's "real" sex is an ideological not biological issue. I happen to believe "female" based on neuro-anatomy which I believe defines identity, but others can reasonably differ. Zoe Brain (talk
  ) 04:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Weak support. Although I find the trans-phobic comments in support of the move pretty reprehensible, I have to admit that COMMONNAME and the principle of least surprise leads me to conclude that the article name should be "Bradley Manning" for the foreseeable future, while the article content should unambiguously use feminine pronouns and the name "Chelsea" in compliance with MOS:Identity. VanIsaac_{WS Vex}^contribs 05:03, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. Per
  WP:IDENTITY to acknowledge the name she explicitly told us to use seems the appropriate approach. On another note, Jesus Christ some of these comments are transphobic. Yes, she has a penis; that's one of the inconvenient aspects of being a pre-op trans woman. Yes, the US government is likely to ignore whatever official requests she tenders, because they are backwards on these sort of things always. She is still a woman, and Wikipedia should not veer into trans-hate for the sake of the news outlets and governments that have not internalized the message. An Editor With a Self-Referential Name (talk
  ) 05:22, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Not particularly happy with the support mind you but as I was thoroughly smacked around with when I first got here the policy is what is important not my personal beliefs.
  MOS:IDENTITY have tenuous options at best when you talk about the title (though they do explicitly say changing the gendered pronouns and nouns so I am all for that.) The more common title and search indication should reflect what this individual is known for, in this case it is the wikileaks federal prosecution case, and that is under the title of Bradley. Nothing else this individual has done (including the statement of gender identification) meets Notability and therefore we should use the name that is associated with that notability. Now if that notability starts linking to Chelsea I will be the first to jump up and start saying we need to change the title to reflect it but until that point I don't see it as being supported by policy as they currently stand. I would suggest someone make a request to change the policies (such as BLP) to include title name and see if that gains consensus as a work around but right now this doesn't meet the requirements. Tivanir2 (talk
  ) 05:34, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong support. Manning's celebrity is based on his activity as a male; changing his identity is rewriting history. It's as bad as changing British names late in life to add pompous and pretentious titles. Manning's own statement was to apply from this time forward, and made no suggestion of retroactivity. So, if there is to be a Chelsea Manning article it should only apply to events taking place after her public statement. Eclecticology (talk) 06:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - Can you point to any other person on Wikipedia whose life is divided into two completely separate articles based on their gender identity? If not, why are you suggesting that we start doing this with Chelsea Manning? Do you propose that we do the same for every other transgender person with a Wikipedia article? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:57, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose.
  WP:IDENTITY is pretty clear on this one; transgender people, including Manning, should be identified as their latest expressed gender self-identification, which extends to their names. It seems like a lot of the support !votes reflect a poor understanding of trans issues; it's not like she's going to change her self-identified gender back within the week, so the "premature" argument doesn't hold weight, and the people who are arguing that she hasn't changed her legal name/hasn't started hormones/etc. don't seem to really understand the transition process and how long it can take to get to the various steps. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation}
  07:09, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. As Sue Gardner correctly pointed out earlier,
  MOS:IDENTITY is unambiguous in requiring that WP "reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification." We went through this already with the Wendy Carlos article. Wendy refers to those who refuse to refer to her as Wendy as having "cruel indifference to anyone's interests but their own. They have tried to turn me into a cliché, to treat me as an object for potential scorn, ridicule, or even physical violence by bigots (no joke in these dangerous times of beatings and deaths at the hands of the intolerant.) At best, they have arrogantly used me and abused me to grind their own prurient axes, to profit by and justify their own agendas. It's no fun to discover someone else's fetishistic hang-ups, to inadvertently confront an unsuspected slice of unwholesomeness in another. Even less amusing is to find yourself the target of painful bigotry and prejudice. [They] have caused me to wince involuntarily, and in some cases to spend sleepless hours at night. While I have never harmed or hurt any of them, they have chosen to hurt me. Is this deliberate nastiness, or just wanton insensitivity? Couldn't you wait until I'm dead? Have you no decency, no respect?" While this is clearly an emotional outpouring by someone who is deeply hurt, she makes a good point. I realize that this will generate a fair number of "please don't question the motives of those who disagree with you" responses, but I haven't seen any valid reason why so many here want to give Chelsea Manning the same shameful treatment that Wendy Carlos was subjected to. It's just wrong. --Guy Macon (talk
  ) 07:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Having the page named Bradley Manning would not be refusing to call her by her chosen name (which would of course still be acknowledged in the lead), or subjecting her to ridicule because of her transgender status. It would only be Wikipedia fulfilling its role, as reflecting the way others have approached this issue. If the case is or becomes that media outlets come under fire for refusing to use the name Chelsea, and that causes controversy and talk about the attitudes that represents, then that would warrant inclusion in the article. But it wouldn't change the fact of her

U-Mos (talk

) 10:14, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support per
  WP:SURPRISE, to support moving it back). But very simply, that's the name more than 90% of sources and readers know her. I surely do hope that sources slowly and steadily begin to refer to her by her new name, and that we can revisit the issue in 12 or 24 months. For now, if we want to provide a reasonable service to readers, better bring it back at Bradley Manning. --cyclopia^speak!
  10:29, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
  • If we want to be a Wikilawyerly, it would only be fair to point out that the policy in question uses language like "Wikipedia prefers", "Wikipedia does not necessarily", "Editors should also consider", "are often avoided", and "are among the sources that may be helpful in deciding". Compare this with policies such as
    WP:V, which uses language like "Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it" (emphasis in original) and "All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable." I'm just saying. --Guy Macon (talk
    ) 14:53, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong Support per
  WP:COMMONNAME policy. Echoing above, that's the name 99% of sources and readers know her, period. Cavarrone
  10:48, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. I think
  WP:COMMONNAME might seem to indicate the move, it is a rapidly decreasing factor; this is 2013, and society generally now accepts changes of gender identity happen and are real. The more reliable of sources are coming into line. Sam Blacketer (talk
  ) 11:00, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose on grounds that a person's declared identity is a special case and should follow WP's last-publically-declared-identity stance along the same lines as use of gendered pronouns. In other words, unlike most statements made on WP which require a weight of reliable sources, determining an identity should require one RS documenting the assertion of identity (of course barring absurd assertions like "I am Elvis," with the obvious unresolved caveat w.r.t. who determines absurdity). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smowton (talk • contribs) 12:10, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Weak Oppose simply because there is nothing to lose by changing the article title for the time being. Let's just move on people Badanagram (talk) 12:53, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support I think it is reality being really harsh towards Manning, and WP should reflect reality. I think it is wrong to argue that "we should respect Manning's wishes" Wikipedia cannot change reality, even if it is hurtful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by General Staal (talk • contribs) 13:02, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
  • This argument is based in ideology rather than Wikipedia policy. Please educate yourself about trans issues before blithely declaring that Manning's gender is not real. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
    • I am confused. Since when do trans issues and beliefs dictate policy on Wikipedia? Nobody is saying his gender isn't real. He has a penis, prostate and testicles. He is male. He can call himself an astronaut if he wants, but until he flies in space, he isn't actually an astronaut.yonnie (talk) 04:29, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
      • Nope, not how it works. Bearcat (talk) 08:02, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
        • Care to elaborate instead of making a useless, vague comment? yonnie (talk) 19:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
• Split (edit conflict) Two articles, one Bradley, one Chelsea. Bradley article covers events through and including the announcement with male pronouns, Chelsea article covers events including the announcement onwards with female pronouns. Each article links to the other. Once we're done pretending that Wikipedia is a newspaper, maybe we can have a merge discussion. This move was most poorly done, in my opinion, and we ought to give bd2412 T a mountain of thanks for stepping forward with a proper move discussion. htom (talk) 13:57, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Would the latter topic be
  notable enough to warrant an article? Manning is known for their actions as a (former) Private First Class by the name of Bradley who leaked certain documents, and not for any actions done whilst he assumed the name of Chelsea. If there is a split, how would you justify the existence of an article for the second topic? --benlisquare_T•C•E
  04:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Notabilty would be inherited, as they're the same human being. At the moment, the Chelsea article would be short; as the appeals grind on, it will grow. htom (talk) 17:11, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support move back to Bradley Manning per policy section
  WP:COMMONNAME which says, "Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural." --Bob K31416 (talk
  ) 14:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose move. Our BLP policy exists to prevent harm to living article subjects. That's what it's for. It's puzzling to me that users arguing COMMONNAME aren't even acknowledging that there is a conflict with other policies, let alone the fact that BLP frequently overrides other policies because of its goal of preventing harm to the subject. The argument that users won't be able to find the page they're looking for is extremely weak, since that's what we've always had redirects for. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Could you give the excerpt from

WP:BLP that applies to this case? Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk

) 14:14, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

"The possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment." --

WP:BLP --Guy Macon (talk

) 14:59, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

What harm, exactly, does this article title pose to the subject? It's a name Manning went by three days ago but now no longer wants to; that's all. -- tariqabjotu 15:29, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

This is rather easy to explain. If someone holds a position because of COMMONNAME, they would of course acknowledge that there is a conflict with other policies. If, on the other hand, they hold a position for some other reason that they would rather not admit, then they would look for a policy justifying their position, find COMMONNAME, and act as if none of the conflicting policies exist. its a pretty standard method of identifying a stalking horse. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:10, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

This is a clear failure to assume good faith. Many supporters, as noted, do not believe any policy contradicts COMMONNAME here. Some have argued/pointed out that MOS:IDENTITY deals with pronouns, not article titles (in fact, the guideline says Disputes over how to refer to a person or group are addressed by policies such as

Article titles where the term appears in the title of an article.). Please don't ascribe ulterior motives to anyone. -- tariqabjotu

15:29, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Guy Macon, Thanks for the excerpt from

WP:BLP

. Unfortunately, the excerpt you gave was slightly misquoted because you capitalized "The" at the beginning when it is not a sentence by itself. Here it is along with the rest of the sentence from policy which gives the context,

"Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives: the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment."

So I think that this part of

WP:BLP that you think apply to this case, I would be interested in seeing them. Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk

) 15:39, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I suggest you reconsider your statement that someone being transgender is a "titillating" tabloid story. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:35, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

That isn't a restricting clause. In the English language restricting clauses have a different syntax. It also fails the sniff test; clearly we do not want to limit the harm to be considered to those specific situations, but rather any harm to living subjects must be considered when exercising editorial judgment. To do otherwise is simply evil. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:28, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I think you're going beyond what policy says. However, I am interested about what harm you think would be done to Manning, or what harm Manning suffered in the past when the article was titled Bradley Manning. The question regarding what harm would be caused was posed to you previously by Tariqabjotu, but you didn't mention anything about harm in your response. Would you care to try again? --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:02, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I will take a crack at the question about harm. Recapping:

MOS:IDENTITY

for the purposes of this comment.)

It is reasonable to believe there's a possibility Manning could be harmed by Wikipedia retitling the article Chelsea Manning to Bradley Manning, because she made a formal announcement explicitly asking that "starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun." Wikipedia is an important site: the #5 most-popular in the world, read by a half-billion people every month, more widely-read than any other news or information site. If Wikipedia were to call its article Bradley Manning, Manning might believe that Wikipedia is rejecting her requested name and/or gender characterization. It is not uncommon for people who feel dissonance between their experienced gender identity and the gender they were assigned at birth to feel significant emotional distress, at least some of which is due to how they're treated by society. (See

this article.) And indeed, in Manning's May 2010 chat logs she describes herself as having GID (gender identity disorder), as having had three breakdowns, as being "in an awkward state," "uncomfortable with my role in society," "scared of being misunderstood" and "isolated as fuck." She says: “i wouldn’t mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn’t for the possibility of having pictures of me… plastered all over the world press… as boy…” I think it's clear that Chelsea Manning hopes and expects that people will use the name and pronoun she asked them to, and that to the extent people do not, they risk causing further trauma to someone who is clearly already significantly distressed. Sue Gardner (talk

) 03:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

That seems like quite a stretch. And actually, you shoot yourself in the foot. You quote Manning saying "I wouldn't mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn’t for the possibility of having pictures of me... plastered all over the world press... as boy..." So... are pictures of Manning as, by most people's observation, a boy or a man [i.e. almost every picture of the subject in the article] also violations of BLP? I sure hope not. Either way, even if we were responsible for people misinterpreting what it means for something to be the title of an article, Manning is going to spend the next thirty-five years in a maximum-security prison, where, presumably, there is no Internet access; Manning will probably never experience the trauma of seeing a Wikipedia article with a title against one's wishes. -- tariqabjotu 03:24, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi Sue, thanks for your thoughtful commentary. I absolutely agree that the WORLD should, ideally, comply with Chelsea's request. But what if it doesn't, and in a years time, most outlets are back to calling her Bradley? I know Jimbo has argued for a bit of "editorializing" on this, and has proposed IAR in order to keep at Chelsea. IMHO, wikipedia should not LEAD the pack, or even necessarily be on the bleeding edge. We should follow the pack, and come in late to the party - otherwise we risk being a cause of

Burma and Ivory Coast - both of these were subject of much debate, but have ended through consensus at what are seen to be COMMON english-language titles (which personally I don't agree with, but that's the way those cookies crumbled). In the case of Cote d'Ivoire, the government has formally requested, on several occasions, publicly, that the french name be used, but not all American/British media has followed suit, and since we follow media, we have "Ivory Coast" (but thankfully, we still have Costa Rica and not Rich Coast!) We risk offending millions of citizens of those countries, and officially pissing off their governments, but I don't see intervention from WMF on these matters. What I fail to understand is why TG people merit such a special exception to our article titling policy - I understand and agree with the pronoun issue, but the title is their to affirm to the user that they have arrived in the right place - so we need to balance that UI requirement for the user with the possibility to hurt the feelings of a BLP. A screenshot on this page demonstrates the silliness of the current article - when viewed on a mobile phone, the words "Bradley Manning" appear no-where on the first page - in spite of the fact that Bradley Manning is still searched 100s of times more frequently by Google users. Why would we not accede to Cat Steven's (30-year old) rename, or any of the other examples that have been trotted out - and the reason is, the article title and the article is first and foremost for the reader (while balancing BLP needs of course). The only way I can see implementing your ideas at scale is to say, there is a new change to the BLP policy, ONLY for trans* people - as soon as they announce a new name, the article is moved immediately - and it doesn't matter what reliable sources do (because if we do this, we should do this for everyone, not just Manning). But I don't think we should add such an exception, and I don't think the argument of harm to Manning is very strong in this case, especially if the first line says in bold "Chelsea Manning, (born Bradley Manning)" etc and clearly states that her preference is to be Chelsea and "she". Calling that "harm" is stretching the definition a bit too far, and equates the article title with the subject's legal/official/desired name (which is categorically not the case for other bios, and is also not what the article title MEANS). If we're so concerned about harm there is much lower and much harsher hanging fruit we should be going after - imagine if instead of this epic debate, people were removing unsourced bullshit from our hundreds of thousands of BLPs, or de-ghettoizing them in their categories, or any number of other things that are rampant and vicious (I'm sure you remember our friend Qworty and the damage he did - which is STILL not cleaned up fully). But an article title? We should be late on this, not early, and we should follow what the world does, and we should balance concerns for the BLP with concerns for our readers. If the world itself doesn't come to a clear conclusion, then we'll have to make a call, of course, but it should be informed BY reliable sources, not by a normative sense of justice. I just don't think it's our job to be progressive in these matters.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk

) 04:48, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:ILIKEIT and "Its the right thing to do because I think it is wrong" type of comments? - Knowledgekid87 (talk

) 15:59, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose per Nick, Scott, and Slim (in alphabetical order :) Plus, like Anthony pointed out, there are now plenty of reliable sources. Also, this. Draco^E 14:22, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. I think
  MOS:IDENTITY. I would also agree with Mark Joseph Stern in the Slate article, when sharing his opinion regarding our approach in changing this article to reflect Manning's identity. This time, we got it right. Cindy(talk
  ) 15:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support - MOS:IDENTITY says a bunch of interesting things, but it can be changed, especially given that there is easily 10 times more input to this page than there has ever been to that MOS entry. My reasoning is based on the fact that this article covers this person during the period when they were a man named Bradley. While I take no issue with the way they wish to live their lives, I believe the reality here is that they ARE one thing, but IDENTIFY as another. Whether that identity is true, part of an ongoing series of self-discoveries, or a self-delusion due to an inability to connect well with any gender identity, it is still all contained within Chelsea's mind. In time, as the world around her (read:Not just the hardcore acceptance group) comes to adopt this new identity, this issue should be revisisted. However, the rush to be the first kid with their hand up is what led to such a blow-up. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 15:21, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support per
  WP:IDENTITY will of course affect how it is addressed within the article, but not the name of the article. Wikipedia does not need to be in front of the pack on this, we are an encyclopedia and report what others are saying. Currently that is the male name. There is also precedence for this, Cat Stevens comes to mind initially and I could list many others. If, over time, the trend changes, we can address that then. GregJackP Boomer!
  15:38, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Why would you disregard other policies such as
    talk
    16:45, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not ignoring

WP:COMMONNAME is the more applicable policy, IMO. GregJackP Boomer!

17:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose as moving back to Bradley would be POV pushing to make a point and we arent here to do that but to build an encyclopedia. Thanks, ♫
  talk contribs
  16:23, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Please see: (
    WP:COMMONNAME. - Knowledgekid87 (talk
    ) 16:27, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Actually, Chelsea is the commonname because WP:COMMONNAME says that when a name changes, "more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change". You should only count neutral sources dating from 22nd of August forward.
      talk
      16:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
      • @
        WP:COMMONNAME they're talking about sources prior to the announcement; it applies even for sources after the announcement. -- tariqabjotu
        16:54, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support for three reasons: first, procedurally, because the page move the "Chelsea Manning" was a controversial move made without even attempting to obtain consensus, and such fait accompli maneuvers should be reversed until a contrary consensus is reached; second, because COMMONNAME is a substantive standard which, for encyclopedic content, should override stylistic standards; third, because, as the executive editor of the New York Times said in yesterday's paper, "we made the judgment readers would be totally confused if we turned on a dime overnight and changed the name and gender of a person in the middle of a major running news story. That’s not a political decision. It is one aimed at our primary constituency — our readers." The same principle should govern here; Manning's gender issues are at best a peripheral concern, unrelated to Manning's notability and most reader's interest in the matter. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 18:45, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support because that's what they're known as. --TripleU (talk) 19:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strongly Support - Just because (s)he has shouted to be known by some other name does not actually mean that (s)he is actually a transgender. Had (s)he been more vocal at an opportune time, (s)he might have saved the world of some idiotic espionage in recent history. DebashisM^Talk 20:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose rename as Bradley, per
  Cassius Clay won the world heavyweight championship from Sonny Liston, but soon joined the Nation of Islam, and the world quickly accepted new name "Muhammad Ali". Within weeks, it became bizarre, awkward to use the former name "Cassius Clay" and his famous youngest daughter (of 9 children) uses the name "Laila Ali" not Clay. -Wikid77
  20:00, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Not pleased with how this move went down. That said, now that we're at this discussion, I figured I'd wait to see what the most recent reliable sources say, and many of these use "Chelsea" like The Guardian (here as well), as well as The Daily Mail, MSNBC, Rolling Stone, HuffPo, Salon, and the Chicago Tribune. That, on top of
  WP:COMMONNAME is getting in the way of us being productive in this specific case. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line}
  20:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
  • WP:COMMONNAME
    applies:

CNN Still using Bradley Manning (News article made 30 minutes ago from this post)

Boston Herald (News article made 18 hours ago from this post)

USA Today (News article made 6 hours ago from this post)

Fox news (News article made 14 hours ago from this post)

BBC still referring him to Bradley (News article made 14 hours ago from this post)

All recent sources calling him Bradley Manning. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

CNN piece-- This provides no support for your claim.

The National Lesbian & Gay Journalists Association (NLGJA) issued guidelines for reporting on Manning's transition, advising journalists to "use the name and pronouns that someone prefers," citing AP style and suggesting "that she be referenced as 'U.S. Army Private Chelsea Manning, who formerly went by the name Bradley. (emphasis mine)

The issue of pronouns and gender identity resurfaced this week when Army Pvt. Bradley Manning announced his intention to transition from male to female in a statement signed "Chelsea E. Manning."-- Neither this or the above quote is evidence of CNN calling Manning by either name, and the later is referring to the chain of events and using Bradley is necessary to describe the change.

Boston Herald - The

reliable

on issues like this one.

US Today - This is an editorial piece, not something we can use to establish

WP:COMMONNAME

.

Fox News- The Army won't pay for Private Bradley Manning to become Chelsea Manning is the only sentence that uses Bradley. It doesn't call Manning one or the other definitively here. Later on, they quote the ACLU which calls him Chelsea. None of this supports your claim.

BBC Article - Y

So, you've got one legitimate article that actually names the subject as Bradley, that's almost a day old. This is unconvincing, and my and many others' points about the

MOS still stand. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line}

23:44, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

In fact, I'm not even really convinced that

WP:COMMONNAME is going to help us arrive at an answer. It's an unhelpful policy for determining the subject's name in this situation. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line}

00:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

— Adrian~enwiki (talk) 23:39, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose I believe that any gender references should be applied after the date of the announcement, lest the changes give the impression that the events were performed by a woman which changes the nature and character of the conversation. Srlevine1 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:39, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose Per
  MOS:IDENTITY. Thatbox (talk
  ) 00:12, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strongly Support, <redacted per BLP> MOS:IDENTITY is irrelevant. He didn't know what he was saying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Psychologicaloric (talk • contribs) 00:55, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• I have redacted a portion of the above comment per
  WP:BLP, as it was an entirely-unnecessary and hopelessly-inappropriate personal attack on the article subject. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk
  ) 03:08, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• I note that Srlevinel, Thatbox, and Phychologicaloric are all accounts that haven't been active in 4+ months, and all 3 accounts have less than 20 edits (counting deleted contribs too). - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 13:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support, as he's more commonly known as Bradley, at least until he gets a legal name change. Jackmcbarn (talk) 01:12, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per
  Help resolve disputes!
  01:13, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong oppose it really is a matter for the transgendered subject to make. And for anyone to claim that Manning was "in a state of psychosis when he decided he was Chelsea" and that "He didn't know what he was saying" is not doing their research, is being very insensitive and perhaps even outright insulting. I had reverted the mention of the gender issue back before it was clear that the subject did identify as a female and that they had made a public declaration. This isn't a political or social issue...its personal. If the subject identifies, not only in regards to gender but to name as well, it is a part of the transformation. Since Manning is in Federal Prison it is unlikely that they will receive the gender reassignment surgery (although it is possible as there is some word that the state of California may allow this eventually), but I do believe that the hormone therapy has either begun or been requested to deal with this medical issue, which this is considered by the US government federal system I do believe.--Mark 01:48, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. A transgender person should be referred to by the gender the person truly is, as substantiated by
  talk) (contribs
  ) 02:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
  • There are plenty of sources listed in this discussion that use the term "Bradley" - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:42, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
  • The gender that Bradley Manning truly is, is male (until he undergoes sexual reassignment). A person may assert their gender to be anything but the true (true meaning actual, as in what physically exists in the real world and not exclusively in the conceptual sense) gender which they actually have in reality is that of their biological sex. Walterego (talk) 10:20, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
    • This has been said around a dozen times here, but Walter please read
      Sex_and_gender_distinction for the distinction between (physical) sex and (psychological) gender. The essential idea here is not accurately describing the person's genitals as a matter of fact, but accurately reflecting their chosen identity as a matter of etiquette. Chris Smowton (talk
      ) 10:32, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - I remember discussing the exact principles floating here, in a slightly less contentious manner at the RM for
  John Cline (talk
  ) 02:55, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Seems like the guidance for what to do in an article when someone declares their gender and name change should be covered specifically in a policy, to avoid any more of these types of long discussions in the future that seem to involve armies of editors, whose time might be more productively spent editing other articles. --Bob K31416 (talk) 03:16, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose moving back, on balance. Reasonable arguments can be made either way, but enough sources have made the change, and policy favours self-identification; together, these factors tip the scale. Andreas JN466 04:34, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support moving back for procedural reasons (the move to
  soon, it hasn't happened yet. Good luck to the admin who closes this one. —  AjaxSmack 
  05:35, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Reliable sources have already begun referring to her as Chelsea. While
  MOS:IDENTITY, the title needs to be changed. I don't see any point in reverting the article title if we're just going to use Chelsea anyway. The initial, bold move seems legit to me. NinjaRobotPirate (talk
  ) 05:50, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support Manning is notable for actions undertaken when he was Bradley. The lead makes no sense now since it says Chelsea was convicted, but Bradley was convicted and the refs say so. Changing the whole article to use female gender and the chelsea name is just awkward. A subsection indicating the desire to be referred to as Chelsea makes more sense. He is not legally Chelsea, are we going to change the title again if he decides he wants to use the name Tammy next week? --Daffydavid (talk) 06:58, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support Manning is indeed "notable for actions undertaken when he was Bradley". The article should only used "she" and "Chelsea" for actions undertaken before his announcement. We just cannot write things like "she was raised as a boy", "she joined the army...", "she gave documents to wikileaks", etc : it is just too confusing and IMHO unfortunate. I have no doubt that Manning's personal journey is something serious, which I respect ; but writing the article like that just makes him/her look silly. I don't think we want that. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 10:38, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose The first line of the article can simply clarify the change to avoid confusion. --Lyo (talk) 13:21, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support as the actions for which Manning is famous (the leak, arrest, detention, trial) were carried out as "Bradley Manning". Manning's actions as "Chelsea Manning" have not eclipsed these.
  McPhail (talk
  ) 14:24, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support I think move a like this, which was bound to be controversial, should have been discussed and a consensus reached before the change was made. Chris Fynn (talk) 15:55, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: We should just wrap this up early per
  WP:SNOW: there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that any persuasive new rationale is going to come out in the remaining time. If we're not doing a poll (and if we are, I support per commonname & resistance to the original violation of policy involved in the peremptory move), then we should just close up the shop and let the admin team decide.  — LlywelynII
  17:29, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I disagree with wrapping it up early.
    WP:SNOW applies to debates where one side is definitely going to win and the other side has no chance of winning. That is not true in this case. In this case both sides of the debate seem fairly evenly matched. Cutting off the debate early could lead to Wikipedians complaining that they didn't have enough time to participate in this debate. It would be best to just let the debate last until it is scheduled to end so nobody will be able to complain that they were excluded from the process. --Yetisyny (talk
    ) 20:55, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support: Nobody knows (or cares) who "Chelsea Manning" is. "Bradley Manning" is most well known for the release of documents to Wikileaks and subsequent trial. LionMans Account (talk) 17:34, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose: If she identifies as Chelsea, that's where the article should be, with a thorough explanation in the lead. Dralwik|^{Have a Chat} 17:36, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
  • If he identifies as
    Yusuf Islam, that's where the article should be. Oops, it's at Cat Stevens. Oh! So we follow usage in reliable source to decide titles, not how the subject identifies! Got it. Do you? --B2C
    02:46, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
    • A simple name change is a far different thing than a sex change to match gender. So I'll clarify: if a transgendered person identifies as gender n, the article should identify that person as gender n. Reporting a transgendered person's gender by their birth sex can be seen as an active rejection of their transgendered nature, a potential insult that doesn't come into play with "only" name changes. Dralwik|^{Have a Chat} 03:51, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support: Support per
  WP:NOTABILITY and multiple widespread sourcing. Manning chose to identify as a male when he enlisted in the Army. Manning became notable for his actions while identifying as a male. This WP article was created because of his notable actions as a male and the article title should reflect the name Bradley, which he chose to identify himself as, at the time of his actions. Now that he has chosen to identify as a female, that choice too has become notable and should be covered in the article.-- Isaidnoway (talk)
  17:38, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose: Basic human decency requires that we do not continue to use Chelsea Manning's old name, given the real distress it would cause her (supporting evidence: the chat logs with Lamo in which she says that having her male persona splashed across the media would be nightmarish). Wikipedia does not exist in a moral vaccuum, and an encyclopaedia should not contribute to the making nightmarish of a mentally vulnerable person's life. 7daysahead (talk) 17:57, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

As far as the effect on Manning, Wikipedia's title is negligible if it is based on what the prevalent name used in the sources are. There's much more chance that in prison Manning will be seeing newspapers, etc, instead of this Wikipedia article. And if Manning does see this article in prison, it is only one article compared to the many articles or TV programs in the media. Manning's real distress will be from being imprisoned for at least 7 years. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:12, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The precise quote you mention is actually:

i wouldn’t mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn’t for the possibility of having pictures of me… plastered all over the world press… as boy…

So, it seems Manning prefers that pictures as a boy or a man be removed. Should we honor that request? Is it our place to remove

not write about themselves). -- tariqabjotu

18:26, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

There is a very real difference between "what subjects want" and "what will cause distress". I suspect that you are not transgendered, and I invite you to do some reading about the subject: it would make this talk page a lot easier for you to understand. Bob's argument ("other people will cause distress, so wikipedia should not worry about whether it causes distress") holds no water (and neither does their bald assertion that Manning will be more distressed by prison than being forced to present as male). 7daysahead (talk) 18:57, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Don't patronize me or insult my intelligence. I need not be transgendered nor read whatever advocacy materials you want me to read for my comment to be relevant. You mentioned those logs as reason to have the article at Chelsea Manning, and I pointed out that what Manning actually wants is for pictures as a boy excised from media attention. We are not compelled to give into that demand, however you choose to describe it. -- tariqabjotu 19:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Tarigabjotu, this is a red herring -- nobody is arguing for removal of the photo on the basis of the chat logs. The photo is a historical document of how Manning lived and represented herself at a particular moment in time, and assuming it's presented as such personally I don't see any issue with it. What's under discussion here is how Wikipedia should frame and represent Manning *today*, in the present tense --- that's why the article title, pronouns and first name matter. The chatlogs are simply evidence that Manning will experience distress if she is misgendered publicly, after having made it clear she is female.

I also reject Bob K31416's argument above, that any distress Wikipedia causes Manning doesn't matter because she might not see the article, and/or the pain of prison will be worse. An argument that hinges on Wikipedia being irrelevant or unimportant is doomed out the gate. And, from an ethical standpoint, any pain we risk causing Manning needs to be considered independently of pain caused to her by others. Sue Gardner (talk) 19:49, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

For reference, here's my original remark that Sue Gardner is commenting on, "As far as the effect on Manning, Wikipedia's title is negligible if it is based on what the prevalent name used in the sources are. There's much more chance that in prison Manning will be seeing newspapers, etc, instead of this Wikipedia article. And if Manning does see this article in prison, it is only one article compared to the many articles or TV programs in the media. Manning's real distress will be from being imprisoned for at least 7 years." --Bob K31416 (talk) 01:42, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm having a hard time understanding how this is a "red herring". 7daysahead said s/he believes the article should be at Chelsea Manning because the previous name would cause the subject distress, as evidenced by the chat logs. Full stop, no further detail. That may not be your argument, or the arguments of most of those supporting the name Chelsea Manning, but it was 7daysahead's, and that is who I was responding to. I am pointing out that the chat logs actually refer to pictures as a boy or a man, not seeing the name "Bradley Manning". And yet, as you said, of course, no one has suggested removing those types of pictures. If 7daysahead is going to take this approach, he's going to have to explain why s/he feels human decency is needed for the article name, but why it's not (and has not been, and likely will not ever be) afforded for other aspects. As you can see from the logs, to Manning, those photos are not "historical documents", but reminders of a life Manning doesn't want to be presented, much like -- presumably -- the name Bradley Manning. -- tariqabjotu 23:31, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

At the moment no one is suggesting that we remove those pictures, and that is not this conversation. The article title is more likely to cause distress than the photographs on display. This is a red herring. (Briefly, I would support updating the article if more up-to-date photographs were to become available.) 7daysahead (talk) 08:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strongly Support: Bradley Manning is a traitor and convicted felon. He will be spending the majority of his (redacted) life at Fort Leavenworth, which for those of you who don't know, is hell on earth where they send (redacted) like Manning to make big rocks into little rocks all damn day long. Why are we wasting time and making a mockery of this article by trying to 'comfort' Bradley Manning or 'make this transition easier on him?' Where he's going, the last worry he'll have is the pronouns they use to address him. And this is just beside all of the basic logic and reasoning that says he is a male, has always been a male, and likely always will continue to be a male and the WP has just bought into one of the lamest PR stunts in recent memory. Has everybody opposed to this moved forgotten that he is a criminal??? IFreedom1212 (talk) 20:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I am going to
    assume good faith, and therefore assume that you merely forgot that have already registered a "support" vote in this discussion. Cheers! bd2412 T
    20:28, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Funny, I thought the word "freedom" in your username meant freedom of self-expression like in gender identity. But now I notice your username reads "IFreedom", so I guess that only applies to your laughable arguments here. I don't even know where to start. Why, for instance, do you get an ideological monopoly on what constitutes "basic logic" on gender? How is this PR stunt? Why is it at all relevant that Manning is a criminal? If you want to dig your hole deeper and respond, you are certainly welcome, but what you really need a is a heavy dose of
    imagining others complexly. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line}
    21:51, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
    • You can't self-identify your own gender just like you can't self-identify your own species. Bradley Manning still has a Y chromosome and you can't make that up. The 'basic logic' behind it is that he has a penis and the only reason his gender is being brought into question is because of his own words and actions. Actions and words which should be given far less consideration because he is an enemy of the state and has been shown to act recklessly and without careful thought in the past. That's why his conviction is relevant. IFreedom1212 (talk) 01:43, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
      • You can't self-identify your biological sex. Gender identity, on the other hand, is something entirely different. Your failure to understand this fact does not make it less of a fact.
      • Also, by what means do you know that Bradley Manning has a Y chromosome?
        • I honestly thought this was a joke at first. All males have Y chromosomes. Bradley Manning is a male, therefore he has a Y chromosome. IFreedom1212 (talk) 02:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
          • Apparently you've never heard of XX male syndrome, XY gonadal dysgenesis & Intersex. Have you conducted a blood test on Manning to know what chromosome makeup she has? KTC (talk) 07:40, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
      • Your POV that Manning "is an enemy of the state" is entirely nonsensical in the context of Wikipedia and has no bearing on this issue. An enemy of which state, defined by whom? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
        • Uhm, the state?? United States v. Manning IFreedom1212 (talk) 02:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
          • Whose state? Not everyone on the English Wikipedia is an American. Nor does every American view Manning as an enemy. Regardless, the fact that she has been convicted of a crime does not give anyone on Wikipedia carte blanche to reject her gender identity, mock her or otherwise degrade her. She is entitled to human decency on Wikipedia just as every other
            living person is. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk
            ) 02:42, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose: Transgendered persons ought to be referred to by their preferred name and gender pronouns. To do otherwise is transphobic. This is in keeping with Wikipedia's
  MOS:IDENTITY policy for how transgendered persons are to be identified on this wiki. And most news organizations and reliable sources have already started calling Chelsea Manning by her new name. Most of the arguments in support of moving back to Bradley Manning, such as claiming there aren't reliable sources to back up the name change, are red herrings. --Yetisyny (talk
  ) 20:20, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support - To the military he's Bradley Manning. To common usage he's Bradley Manning. To the prison system...well that'll be something to see. This article title should absolutely be at Bradley Manning. In the first line of the lead, assuming the gov't recognizes a legally changed name, that's where one would place Chelsea E. Manning. Nowhere else. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - I have already expressed my support above, but I have noticed that a lot of people here are citing BLP as a reason for opposing the move back to Bradley. BLP basically states that the article can't have anything negative that is unsourced. There are a lot of sources that still refer to Manning by the first name Bradley, so even if you do consider using Manning's legal name to be a negative statement (which is really a stretch even without sources backing it up), BLP would still not apply here because there are many sources that still use the name. --PiMaster3 ^talk 22:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Sources since the name change, you mean? (Remember that the redirect from
    Bradley Manning still works.) - David Gerard (talk
    ) 22:16, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Yes, that is why I said still use. What does the redirect working have anything to do with whether or not there is a BLP violation? --PiMaster3 ^talk 23:43, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
  • You're mistaken if you think BLP only says we can't have anything negative that is unsourced. BLP also prevents undue weight being put on sourced negative material and other things. In terms of the wider issue, there's already been so much discussion concerning BLP that I don't think there's anything useful to say about the applicibility of BLP. Nil Einne (talk) 23:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
• I oppose reverting to the "Bradley" name Chelsea was very clear of her intentions and even stated, and was printed in leading newspapers and on national television, "I hope that you will support me in this transition. I also request that, starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun (except in official mail to the confinement facility)." As she is a living person Wikipedia must respect her wishes. Shezthemann (talk) 08:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

  ^{Note: Comment posted by User:Guerillero as requested on his talk page; requesting editor, User:Shezthemann, has very few edits, all at User talk:Guerillero, and all relating to this article. bd2412 T 03:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)}

26 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: As others have noted, the move to Chelsea was premature and should have awaited fuller use of that name in reliable sources (see
  Rae (Talk | Contribs
  ) 05:51, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree with everything you've said there, but my sense of inertia prefers not to do a temporary move that I reasonably expect will need to be undone shortly, even to revert a premature move. It is unpleasant to "reward" people for having a hair trigger on the Move button, but when we've acknowledged they probably will be right soon enough, might as well let them get away with it. Wnt (talk) 22:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. As I've already noted in other comments, making acceptance of a transgender person's chosen name conditional on her compliance with further conditions (complete the legal process, have the surgery, etc.) is not acceptable — for starters that's a higher burden of proof than we place on any other celebrity who happens to change their name, and even more importantly both her legal records and her medical records are covered by
  verifiable
  . (What's our test going to be? She can't be "Chelsea" until she personally uploads a photograph of her groin to Commons to prove that she doesn't have a penis anymore? That's ridiculous and invasive, obviously, but what other evidence can we possibly ask for if "have the surgery first" is our standard?)

Furthermore, no other type of person on Wikipedia is subject to any requirement that we must necessarily lock the article into their legal birth name, regardless of any other titling consideration — and thus imposing that as a unique rule that is binding only on transgender people is a clearcut act of transphobia.

COMMONNAME is also not a compelling argument, because that rule explicitly states, right in its own text, that there are sometimes legitimate reasons to privilege another name over one that's technically more common — so the question becomes, why should a transgender person not be one of those cases? And COMMONNAME also explicitly says that sources published after a name change count for more than those published before — so leaving aside for the moment the fact that there's already been a documentable shift, it still needs to be asked what volume of new sourcing has to be provided before people will be satisfied that the balance has finally tipped over to Chelsea instead of Bradley? Is it 100 articles? 1,000? 10,000? What's the number? Or is it going to be, my real suspicion, a moving target which always consists of "some unspecified number of additional sources beyond what we have now"?

And if the argument is based on "Chelsea" being a violation of POVNAMING, then you have to face the reality that "Bradley" also poses just as much of a POVNAMING issue — because it also represents a POV assertion about the validity of her identity change. So if there's no wholly NPOV naming option available, then in a BLP you've got to err on the side of the subject's dignity. As I've said elsewhere, the only appropriate,

WP:NPOV

by casting judgement on the validity of her gender identity. The fact that a few readers might be a little bit confused, furthermore, is covered by the fact that "Bradley" is still in place as a redirect — so people are not going to fail to get here because they typed the wrong name into the search bar, and given the volume of media coverage her announcement has been getting I sincerely doubt that there are five people left in the Western world who are going to be surprised.

And furthermore, our

WP:NPOV

way to write about a transgender person, and that is by her preferred name and gender identity — any source that still calls her "Bradley" once she's announced that her name is Chelsea is committing a biased, non-NPOV act. No matter what their reasoning is — deliberate transphobia, unintentional ignorance of the correct practice, simple laziness, whatever — the doing of it is an act of anti-transgender bias. And we simply cannot make it Wikipedia policy that we deprecate clearly biased sources in every case except when the bias is an anti-transgender one.

So simply put, for all of those reasons I have to take the position that the article's proper and correct title is Chelsea. Bearcat (talk) 08:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Who decided what "the correct practice" is, why do they have authority, when did they do it? People keep implying that there was this big meeting and we all decided what "the correct practice" is, I think I missed that meeting, does someone have the minutes? CombatWombat42 (talk) 18:57, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

You don't get a say in what is or isn't correct practice in writing about any identity community in which you do not have a direct personal stake. There was no obligation for "we all" to have been part of the decision; in exactly the same way as is true for racial and ethnic groups, LGBT people, and their doctors and therapists and other people with a direct stake in the issue, get to make that decision unilaterally. You're certainly not obliged to follow if you don't want to — but you don't get a right to dictate that your preferences override those of the affected parties, or to decree that nobody else is allowed to call you out on your decision, or to question what is or isn't correct practice. You certainly have a right to follow either correct or incorrect practice in your own life — but you don't get consultation rights on which practice is the correct one. Bearcat (talk) 19:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Ok, when did all people with a direct stake have a meeting and where are the minutes? How do you know I don't have a stake?CombatWombat42 (talk) 19:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

GLAAD's Media Reference Guide; AP Style Guide; any acceptably

WP:NPOV book at all on transgender issues. And incidentally, the process of establishing consensus on matters like this does not require that every single transgender person personally attended a meeting with posted minutes and a unanimous vote at the end — it's allowed to happen through the exact same sort of social processes (literature, one-on-one conversations, political activism, appeals to basic human decency, etc.) that contribute to the evolution of any other social or cultural convention. And as for how I know that you don't have a personal stake in the issue, you wouldn't be taking the positions you're taking if you did. Bearcat (talk

) 19:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

1. Does GLAAD represent all people that have a stake? I was not informed. 2. AP does not meet your defention of "having a stake" so why do you refrence them? 3. What position have I taken? 4. If I have taken a postion why is it impossible to have that position and have a stake? CombatWombat42 (talk) 19:28, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

1. Yep. 2. AP reflects the established practice, and is thus acceptable for consultation purposes. 3. & 4. Agreeing that it's ever appropriate to give a transgender person's birth name precedence over their chosen one, or to disregard their own stated gender identity, are not positions which a transgender person would ever typically take. I suppose it's theoretically possible that there might be a few transgender people out there who do disagree, but that's implausible enough to belong in the "I'll believe it when I see it" category — and even if such people did exist, the established consensus of most transgender people would still prevail over the opinions of one or two fringe dissenters. Bearcat (talk) 19:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

1. We both know you are incorrect, but you obviously don't want to argue. (Fair, but I'm going to assume it's because you realized that I was going to be right and you wanted to head the off at the pass) 2. Resonable point, but still against your argument. 3. When have I ever "Agreeing that it's ever appropriate to give a transgender person's birth name"? 4. So "minority"/"fringe" oppinions don't count? CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

1. GLAAD most certainly is the final authority on what is or isn't discriminatory or biased language when writing about LGBT topics. They don't have to be the universal representative of all LGBT people on all possible LGBT issues whatsoever — but they are the Supreme Court on this. 2. Nope, not against my argument. People outside the identity community are allowed to be cited as authorities on what the consensus is, if they are correctly following it — as an outside party, the only thing they're not allowed to do is override it with their own alternative rules while still being accorded equal weight. 3. You've been arguing for the move back to the old name; that, by definition, is giving her old name precedence over her current one. 4. When it comes to the question of what Wikipedia should or should not reflect, if they can't be well-sourced as significant minority opinions that have a weight of credibility behind them then indeed, no, they don't count. Bearcat (talk) 20:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Alright, you are clearly so incapible of seeing your own logical fallicies that it is no longer interesting to try to get you to understand that there is no consensus on this topic and for you to keep claming that there is is driving people away from your arument. We need to have a rational discussion about this topic without either side making appeals to authority or personal attacks. I really am on the fence about the issue, but the fastest way to drive me to one side is for the other side to falsely claim that the matter has already been decided in their favor. CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Nope, no logical fallacies at all. I've acknowledged all along that not everybody in the world actually follows the correct practice in writing about transgender issues — but that fact does not mean that there isn't an objectively correct practice. When writing about any identity community (race, ethnicity, sexuality, etc.) which is subject to bias and misrepresentation concerns, the correct practice is always to follow that community's own internal consensus about what does or doesn't constitute biased language about them. This is not some special privilege that we extend exclusively to transgender people — it's the standard practice that should be followed for absolutely any identity group (racial, sexual, ethnic, gender, whatever) that is known to be subject to biased or discriminatory language and unfair media misrepresentation.

You certainly have the freedom to disregard that practice and continue to use derogatory or biased language if you wish — but you do not get to deny the fact that there is a correct practice, which is supported by a valid, properly documented consensus of the only people who actually get to have any say in the matter of what is or isn't correct practice, and you don't get to claim immunity from other people calling you out on your language choices. But if you want to be perceived as fair and respectful and polite and unbiased, then there's really no other way besides accepting that the group being written about gets to be the arbiter of what constitutes unfair or hurtful or discriminatory language about them. Bearcat (talk) 20:40, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

"there is a correct practice" No way. There is no "correct" or "incorrect" when it comes to journalism. There are no binding standards; there are no punishments for breaking with the rules; there is no enforcement. In short these expectations are not rules. They are opinions. It's analogous to the difference between Wikipedia essays and policies; some may strongly support an essay but we ultimately follow policy. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes way. Journalistic outlets certainly retain the freedom to be incorrect about it if they choose to be, but there is an objectively correct way to write about an identity community (racial, sexual, ethnic, whatever) that is known to be subject to hurtful, discriminatory or biased coverage — and that way is to respect what those communities tell you about what constitutes hurtful, discriminatory or biased coverage of them. You can still disregard it if you really want to, but you are not being

WP:NPOV if you do. Bearcat (talk

) 21:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Please tell me where

WP:NPOV states that we must follow the style guidelines laid out by minority communities. Let's not refer vaguely to very tightly-worded Wikipedia policies; please be specific. CaseyPenk (talk

) 21:23, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:NPOV unequivocally prohibits us from using discriminatory or biased language. So since minority communities are themselves the only acceptable authority on what constitutes discriminatory or biased language about them, who else would you propose that we even listen to? Bearcat (talk

) 21:44, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I certainly see where you're coming from and I personally agree that we should follow the standards set by the groups and the people themselves. Just as we should follow Chelsea's pronoun preference we should theoretically follow GLAAD's guidelines when referring to LGBT people. However that is my personal belief and I would not foist it upon Wikipedia. Others who have deeply-held personal beliefs think theirs are equally valid. Hate groups, for instance, may feel very strongly that we should do the exact opposite of GLAAD. What I'm saying is that we fundamentally disagree about who has authority on media coverage; you think pro-LGBT groups do, while I think anti-LGBT groups / LGBT-neutral groups also have authority.

WP:RS requires us to weigh the options. If there comes a time when journalistic organizations are united in referring to LGBT people in a truly sensitive way, we can follow their lead. But that time has not yet arrived. CaseyPenk (talk

) 22:00, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we can't write about the existence of anti-LGBT or racist or anti-trans sentiment; as much as I may hate those things, they do exist and are legitimately notable topics. But what we can't do is write that

Metta World Peace and Sean Combs are "n-words", or Elton John is a "filthy faggot", or Ellen DeGeneres is a "f*cking dyke", or "Bradley" Manning is a "man who thinks he's a woman", and on and so forth, just because some people might prefer to see them described that way instead of with neutral terminology. We can talk about the existence of anti-LGBT or racist or anti-trans beliefs in the appropriate articles; we just aren't allowed to use anti-LGBT or racist or transphobic terminology as objective descriptors in our articles about those groups or individual people who belong to them. That's all I'm saying. Bearcat (talk

) 22:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

In terms of our personal views we're so very close. But I just don't view GLAAD as being the only source of note, as much as I support what they're doing. CaseyPenk (talk) 22:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Did you just compare titling the article Bradley Manning to calling black people the n-word? Or gay people faggots? Unbelievable. -- tariqabjotu 22:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

It is comparable, because it is discriminatory to discount a transgender person's chosen name. And in case you aren't already aware of this, I am a gay man — so I most certainly do have authority to speak on whether a point of language usage is or isn't comparable to calling me a faggot. Bearcat (talk) 22:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I was aware of that, as it's on your userpage. And it may lead people to wonder whether your advocacy efforts, and your inability to see how misguided your concept of neutrality is as it applies here, might be motivated by your sexual orientation. But I didn't bring that up because your sexual orientation shouldn't be a reason for people to diminish your views, nor should it be a reason -- as you have done -- to prop them up. Likewise, I will not take the easy route by matching your tenuous appeal to authority with one of my own based on my race, sexual orientation, religion, or membership in any other group that I have chosen to not broadcast loudly on my userpage but you apparently have chosen to guess for convenience. -- tariqabjotu 23:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Mmmmm, yeah. People are actually trying to use her, right on this very page, as a platform for waging war on the very concept that the recognized medical condition of gender dysphoria even exists, and I get the rap for "advocacy efforts" for arguing against biased and discriminatory and non-NPOV language? That's really kind of rich. Bearcat (talk) 00:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Um, everyone else? Neutrality means considering the opinions of all groups and weighing them accordingly, not listening to just one group and ignoring everyone else because they don't suit your point of view. That's basically the definition of neutrality. There are reliable sources (including the AP, which you claimed immediately started using Chelsea) that continue to use the name "Bradley Manning", and you seem intent on diminishing them to "wrong". -- tariqabjotu 22:14, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I said that AP's style guide states what the proper practice is; the fact that not every AP publication is actually following it yet does not negate the fact of what the style guide says. And neutrality means that we also have to take the POVness or non-POVness of the sources themselves into account: we do not accord equal weight to all possible sources, but in fact routinely deprecate sources that can be demonstrated to be portraying the story in a biased or inaccurate way. Bearcat (talk) 22:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I covered that; as I said, considering the opinions of all groups and weighing them accordingly.As noted below, the New York Times, the Independent, the BBC, and Reuters have used the name Bradley Manning. Are they also POV sources? And I'm struggling to find the non-POV sources (The Huffington Post? No. Salon? No.) that have switched over to Chelsea Manning. -- tariqabjotu 22:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Even a generally reliable source can still cover a particular story in a way that precludes that specific article from being cited in an NPOV encyclopedia. You have to review the potential bias of every individual story; a broad sweeping judgment based solely on who's publishing it is not sufficient. Bearcat (talk) 23:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Your remarks are beginning to suggest that you're motivated by advocating for minority groups, rather than adhering to our policies. While advocating for minority groups may be admirable, Wikipedia

is not supposed to be used for that purpose. -- tariqabjotu

21:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Er, no. People on this page have denied the proven medical fact that gender dysphoria even exists at all — that's an advocacy position. Arguing that her status as a convicted criminal should invalidate her right to even receive medical treatment for her condition at all is an advocacy position. Respecting people's right not to be subject to hurtful or discriminatory or biased language is a simple human dignity position, not an advocacy one. Bearcat (talk) 21:44, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

The fact that others might be using Wikipedia for advocacy doesn't mean you aren't. You argued that minority groups should be the arbiter of what is hurtful, discriminatory, and biased. That you cited our

neutral point-of-view policy in the next sentence shows your lack of self-awareness. -- tariqabjotu

22:14, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Nope. Using hurtful, discriminatory and biased language is an NPOV violation. Bearcat (talk) 22:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Again, "hurtful, discriminatory and biased" are utterly subjective. What's hurtful today to a certain group may be acceptable to another; what's hurtful today may not be so tomorrow. CaseyPenk (talk) 22:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. Bearcat, if your idea of neutrality decided by one group were really true, discussions like this one would have ended differently. The rules shouldn't change because the group is this one. -- tariqabjotu 22:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm talking about points of language usage in a

WP:BLP about an individual member of an oppressed identity community. I'm not an expert in, and have no opinion on, how the Muhammad cartoons controversy should or shouldn't have been handled — but they're not the same thing as the matter at hand. Bearcat (talk

) 23:10, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support moving the article name back to Bradley Manning for now. In essence it's been decided that an established policy
  WP:NPOV) to reflect the new political reality. Editors should be castigated for their adherence or otherwise to Wikipedia policy, not for their (presumed) views, unless Wikipedia starts censoring views as policy. My suspicion is that the references to Bradley Manning will become rarer and this will simply default to Chelsea, but I am uneasy about the precedent of break the rules if it matches the political views of the majority of admins that is being set here. JASpencer (talk
  ) 09:37, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

COMMONNAME is not being overrruled; COMMONNAME itself states that there are valid reasons to choose a technically less "common" name sometimes. It explicitly allows for exceptions right in its very own definition of itself, and it is not "violating policy" to treat a situation as an exception to a policy that has room for exceptions written right into the policy itself. As well, COMMONNAME explicitly says that when an article topic changes their name, any decision about which name to use has to give more weight to post-name change sources than it does to pre-name ones — and that shift is already happening in the sources. (And as I've said before, calling a transgender person by anything other than her publicly stated preferred name is, in and of itself, an act of anti-transgender prejudice. You may not have deliberately prejudiced reasons for doing so, which is why I've always taken the utmost care in this discussion to respect the difference between labelling the argument and labelling the person, but the act of not respecting a transgender person's public statement of her name is a prejudiced thing to do.) Bearcat (talk) 16:42, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

• Compromise: since "Chelsea" seems too controversial, let us rename this person "Peyton." Torquemama007 (talk) 12:08, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Torquemama007, as best as I can tell yours was a sarcastic remark. Please correct me if that is not the case. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Sarcastic? No, it was a joke. You know...Peyton...Manning. Comment withdrawn. THis is a silly argument. Bradley can be a girls name and Chelsea can be a boys name and anyone looking for this article today will be looking for Bradley, and in a year probably for Chelsea. Torquemama007 (talk) 18:27, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support I am not as heavily swayed by the argument that we should wait for SRS or some kind of 'legal name change.' I do understand the draw; they provide a single, verifiable way to determine a persons gender. They are also arbitrary, unverifiable, and ultimately irrelevant (we are not tied to the United States government, so why do we care so much what they think?)

I am, however, swayed by the "Golden Retriever Problem"- if Manning said "I'm a golden retriever, and my name is Rover", would we accept that? Of course not. It would be an inappropriate value judgement to say in this case that Manning has such definite control over his name, yet in other cases ignore obviously spurious 'name changes' - without violating NPOV, how could we make a judgement?

(Breaking in the middle because your post is extremely long). Could I ask you to read the very short essay Wikipedia:Gender_identity? It answers your question. Briefly, there is no accepted medical condition which leads people to identify as dogs, the only treatment for which has been consistently shown to allow that person to live as a dog. Your argument has been given several times on this talk page. 7daysahead (talk) 15:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

The answer at the essay you provided was "Coming out as trans can not be dismissed as an arbitrary or irrational decision. It is a deeply personal decision recognized and supported by mental health professionals."

I feel the answer is hand-waving. It is an appeal to authority; that authority may be qualified to diagnose Manning with GID (or whatever, I think the name of the disorder may have changed.) but that authority does not necessarily carry over into how we otherwise present Manning. To wit, a doctor could advise Manning to use to a feminine name, but that does not in and of itself rename Manning. Manning is only renamed to the extent that the new name is recognized at large. I do not feel the essay addresses this concern. OSborn ^arf_contribs. 16:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Also: what counts as "obviously spurious"? Harpo Marx? Screaming Lord Sutch? Nate Dogg, Bow Wow, or Snoop Dogg? "Chelsea Manning" seems pretty sober and sensible by comparison. --GenericBob (talk) 01:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

The difference is those names have been generally accepted by reliable secondary sources, but the name "Chelsea Manning" has not been accepted in the same way. OSborn ^arf_contribs. 01:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

The claim that there would be some sort of BLP violation or harassment seems ridiculous. If we're harassing, then what are the news organizations (such as, I understand, AP) doing? As to BLP, the three main issues are NPOV, V, and OR. I do not see NPOV as being an issue considering the continued use of the name "Bradley" by many news organizations. As to Verifiability, there is no question there. As for OR, it seems to me the "Chelsea" supports could be conducting their own Original Research by synthesizing that the subject of the article's name is Chelsea, without that being supported first by reliable sources. The rest of BLP seems to deal with the privacy of the subject, but that is not relevant here because the name "Bradley" has already all over the news.

The title "Chelsea Manning" is (potentially) confusing to many readers. Readers not familiar with the case will be surprised to find an article named "Chelsea..." when they typed in "Bradley..." I suspect they could even navigate away from the page, if they know the subject to be male, yet the article is, at a first glance, about a woman.

To reply to Bearcat, above, if it is POVNAMING in either case, I find it to be a legitimate option to simply defer to reliable sources. I have not yet seen a meaningful analysis of how different reliable sources handle this issue. I do not believe we are impacting the tone of the article or dignity of the subject. The simple truth is that Manning has not used the name Chelsea at all (AFAIK) until very recently. As to gender identity, if Manning has been consistently identified as male by all secondary coverage until now, how are we creating an 'unduly negative' article by reporting that? In addition, my understanding is that the AP has not transitioned to using the Chelsea name.

I think I read [somewhere] an editor claiming that "Bradley..." would hurt the '[transgender] cause' which is, I feel, a very poor argument in this context.

I think Rae, above, makes a good if unfortunate point.

OSborn ^arf_contribs. 14:30, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

As I explain here, we should use information from reliable sources at the right level. Normally the choice of that level doesn't matter; a pile of molecules that happens to be a Zebra won't be interpreted as an Elephant by someone else. In this case the problem is that the primary information about Manning's gender identity issues leads to a different conclusion about her gender when we use our policies compared to some newspapers. Count Iblis (talk) 14:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

"Base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." (

MOS:IDENTITY

problematic, as a 'special process' for transgender, and only transgender persons.)

Although I may not entirely understand what your argument is; we don't really have "policies" on this sort of thing. Our policies, in my experience, have been to neutrally present available, reliable information. Any guideline on content is simply a summary of how to do so. I think the essay

WP:TRUTH also supports my argument. OSborn ^arf_contribs.

15:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but the issue with primary/secondary sources has more to do with wanting to have a solid review of the primary facts that reflects current scientific consensus about the topic. But in general, you have some source and different levels of information exists in the same source. E.g. in case of a crime, you can have many reliable sources that agree with each other on the factual issues, but they differ on whether or not to call the perpetrator of the crimes a criminal. We can then easily bypass this problem by focussing on the facts on which there is then no diagreement about from these reliable sources and use our own BLP policies to decide whether or not the responsible person should be called a criminal or not. Saying that "X is a criminal" is higher level information than saying that "X has commited acts Y and Z". Our policies may e.g. compel us to refer to X as a "suspect", even if most sources use "criminal". Count Iblis (talk) 15:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

To clarify your analogy, if "X has committed acts Y and Z." (and Y and Z are criminal acts) then by definition "X is a criminal," not "X is a suspect." "X is a suspect" if "X has been accused of committing acts Y and Z."

My understanding is that the situation you are referring to would be a BLP violation partly because it could expose the WMF to litigation. (From what I understand.) In this case, there's no judgement call of "Manning is a criminal." AFAIK IANAL this isn't a situation where Manning could litigate (not that we should only do things under threat of litigation...) and so isn't quite the same in that regard.

Anyways, we would never make-up a term for someone, we would only use verifiable information. Clearly, we don't go for the most extreme information; we avoid being inflammatory. This is the other part of not calling someone a criminal. But I don't really see the 'presumption of innocence' factor as leading us to use the newer name. I think the "Golden Retriever Problem" I mentioned above explains this. The big question I have is "why do we not extend skepticism to Manning's own statement?" OSborn ^arf_contribs. 15:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

There is, as has already been pointed out above, no such thing as the "Golden Retriever Problem" when it comes to transgender issues. Gender dysphoria is a real, recognized medical condition, which has substantial medical research behind it to confirm that transgender people really do have physical brain structures that are consistent with the target gender rather than the one that would be consistent with the kind of sexual organs they have down below — and the only known treatment for that condition is for the person to undertake some form of transition into living as the target gender. You don't have to understand how it could be medically possible for that to happen — but it is.

There is, however, no recognized medical condition in which it's possible for a human being of any gender to actually have a dog's brain inside a human body — there are certainly disorders in which it's possible for someone to think they're a dog, I won't deny that, but there are no known medical conditions in which it's possible for that belief to turn out to be true, or for which the only treatment that even exists at all is for the person to actually switch over to living as a dog.

So until medical science finds a a real medical disorder which lifts "I'm a golden retriever inside" out of the realm of psychotic delusions and into the realm of things that could actually be true, the "Golden Retriever Problem" is not a valid analogue to gender dysphoria. Bearcat (talk) 16:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the "Golden Retriever Problem" is not the best argument to make here, but on the other hand I think that we still do not have to change the article title. Wikipedia has not always respected the wishes of the subject with respect to their identity. We have declined to move

Jay Z, for example. Edge3 (talk

) 00:08, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't really see how taking or not taking a hyphen out of a name that's still fundamentally the same otherwise really tells us anything either way about how to handle a person who comes out as transgender; as I've pointed out elsewhere, there are numerous other articles where we did respect the subject's wishes by moving the article right away upon a name change announcement — and that's the standard that's always been considered the precedent for transgender people. Bearcat (talk) 01:10, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

We also have not moved

Snoop Lion. Edge3 (talk

) 02:31, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I bring up the "golden retriever problem" as an analogy for someone simply declaring their name to be something different. I'd like to clarify, as I think it may be misunderstood, that I am not drawing an analogy with regards to trangenderism per se. The point of the analogy is that the subject has simply announced a change in name and that change in name has not been generally accepted. I realize now this may have been a distracting analogy.

As I answered above, that Manning has been advised to change his name does not seem specifically relevant. We summarize reliable sources, and my understanding is that reliable sources have not transitioned to "Chelsea" in a way as to trigger such a change. OSborn arf_contribs. 01:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support per WP:COMMONNAME. I respect the arguments in opposition, but the move was premature, the subject of the article is still most widely known as Bradley, and Chelsea is not yet prdominant in new reporting. I support the use of Chelsea/she, etc. within the body of the article.Skyraider (talk) 16:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support this individual is morphologically, chromosomally, and most important legally still male. of particular note is that at the time of his enlistment and service, from which springs his entire notability and notoriety, he was male. until 8/22, 100% of the news coverage was of 'bradley' manning. while i am a liberal on the issue of gender politics, this seems to me an unnecessarily pov sop to the lbgt community, and a kowtowing to political correctness.Toyokuni3 (talk) 19:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Legal status is irrelevant to the question of what a person's gender identity is or isn't, and you are making an

unverifiable assumption about her genetic karyotype. There are real, documented conditions within the transgender spectrum in which a person can have male sex organs while actually being chromosomally female — so unless you have Manning's DNA tests in your personal possession you have no way of verifiably knowing whether she's chromosomally XX or XY. Bearcat (talk

) 19:18, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

When you strip the emotion from the conversation and look at it from a purely facts-based perspective, the decision to move the page to Chelsea Manning and replace the male-gendered pronouns with their female-gendered equivalents was not only correct, but needed to be accomplished rapidly in order to satisfy the Damoclean Sword of

WP:BLP. My 2c. QuackCD (talk

) 20:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

You obviously didn't read

WP:SELFPUB very carefully. Claiming to be a different sex is a pretty clear example of an "exceptional claim". Thus, Manning's statement may be taken as evidence that Manning made a statement, but that in no way compels the article to agree that the statement is true and always has been. – Smyth\^talk

13:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I was going to support on the basis of
  WP:COMMONNAME and the fact that we follow where reliable sources go, and we should follow rather than lead on issues such as this. However, when looking for sources to back me up, I came across this very recent addition which I think alters the balance. If the NYT and AP are doing so, we should follow suit. Sailsbystars (talk
  ) 01:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Well, at least Sailsbystars is offering a reasoning that is more deferential to reliable sources than other "oppose" positions. Still, the NYT and AP are only two RSs (albeit fairly important ones). I think this more evidence that we really ought to adopt "Chelsea" in 1-6 months times when more RSs have the transition that Sails notes. NickCT (talk) 02:17, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

  Perhaps you mean, "in 1-6 days" when the AP feed affects hundreds or thousands of spinoff related sources, such as numerous small-town newspapers, TV or radio stations. Just follow the instant rename of "Kate Middleton" as "

  Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge" and reset policies so that WP does not give preferential treatment only to names of royalty or nobility of some nations. -Wikid77

  13:31, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support He's still got the chromosomes, package and legal name of a guy and no ammount of critical queer/feminist/gender analysis will get around those three simple truths. WeldNeck (talk) 02:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Re. chromosomes: citation needed, and you might want to read this article for some background on why your assumption is unsafe. --GenericBob (talk) 12:02, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Citation needed on chromosomes, as Genericbob points out. But it is needed too on the "package", by which I presume that WeldNeck means genitalia. Even if Weldneck had personal evidence of the state of Mannin's "package", it would be

reliable sources. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs

) 19:24, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support - he is Bradley Manning and will be until his sentence is served. He will be housed with male inmates and will not be given any gender reassigmnent. He can call himself anything he likes, but legally his name is Bradley Manning, He is widely known as Bradley Manning and the Army will only refer to him as Bradley Manning. "Chelsea" should barely be a footnote. "Chelsea Mannning" does not exist. --DHeyward (talk) 02:33, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
  • One of the reasons that some editors have made accusation of transphobia is that comments such as this, which seek to erase a trans person's identity, are also a common part of intentionally transphobic behaviour. I hope that it was not DHeyward's intention to denigrate this biography's subject in this way, but it would be helpful if editors were a more careful not to adopt the approach of transphobes.
    As to the substance of the assertion that "Chelsea Mannning" does not exist, [relaible sources such as the NYT and AP disagree. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:40, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: See "New York Times to Call Chelsea Manning by Her Preferred Name" at Huffingtonpost.com, 26 August 2013. There have been reports that the New York Times refused to use the name "
  Cassius Clay changed his name after 1964. Also, keeping the title as "Chelsea Manning" allows that to appear in "Category:Transgender and transsexual women" as a female name. The first 7 other-language wikipedias which also renamed, for Chelsea, are: Swedish Wikipedia, Persian Wikipedia, Turkish Wikipedia, Dutch Wikipedia, Danish, Catalan and Finnish Wikipedia, all renamed on 22/23 August 2013. -Wikid77 (talk
  ) 05:36, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

But that would make a lot of wikipedias that haven't - like Norwegian. It's not really much of an argument. The NYT argument is stronger, and shows that some sources are making this late shift, but by no means all. StAnselm (talk) 05:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - This whole mess is appalling, the move, the following discussion, even quite a few !votes on display here. I oppose the move based on the policy arguments regarding MOS:IDENTITY and BLP, as well as Sailsbystars' note above; given the blatant politicalization of this issue, moving forward with the style the NYT and AP are going with seems like the safest option, though I'm sure even that can be argued. More importantly, retaining the current title is the only way forward that doesn't create more drama. The community needs to move forward by creating clear guidelines for situations like these, not by move warring en masse. Archaeo (talk) 05:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support move back to Bradley Manning. Manning is only notable for his crimes. Manning's crimes were committed under the name of "Bradley Manning". Manning was tried and convicted under the name "Bradley Manning". Some criminals adopt new names after leaving prison but we do not rewrite history to show their new name. --Toddy1 (talk) 07:52, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support reverting back to Bradley Manning. The individual who was convicted in court is Bradley Manning. Since Wikipedia articles are supposed to be factual, it's a travesty that anyone thinks it justifiable to jump the gun and make declarations about the individual that are not truthful. At the point that he has his name legally changed, then there should definitely be an article about Chelsea Manning; not beforehand. And he should be referred to in the male pronoun until such time that he is legally reassigned as transgender or female. Despite the opposition's conjecture, the referendum for correctly naming B. Manning's article has nothing to do with politics. This is purely in the spirit of what Wikipedia is intended for: up-to-date, factual information. XMattingly (talk) 08:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
• Comment — It may be worthwhile to consider whether Manning is more notable as Bradley or Chelsea. --Bob K31416 (talk) 10:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
• Having read through the article and looked through the discussion after being alerted to it by
  WP:BALASPS. I therefore support those like User:Daffydavid (Talk:Chelsea_Manning#25_August_2013_.28UTC.29) who call for a move back to Bradley Manning and a restriction of female pronouns and discussion of Manning's gender identity to one subsection. It Is Me Here ^{t / c}
  10:56, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support move back to Bradley Manning on procedural grounds. Most editors are arguing about whether
  WP:COMMONNAME is more important, or whether they were followed. But what obviously was not followed was the principle of consensus – one of Wikipedia's core policies which takes priority over any guideline in the Manual of Style. This is a controversial issue, it was always going to be a controversial issue, and it was unacceptable to move and re-write the article without a proper discussion. It is now clear that, if such a discussion had been held before the initial move, consensus would not have been obtained. Therefore, the page should be reverted to the state it was in before this dispute broke out, and all editors should refrain from making disruptive changes without consensus. – Smyth\^talk
  12:55, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Consensus is restricted by policies/guidelines: The loophole in seeking
    Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge" and just go with the flow, despite a local consensus of "57%" who dislike a new name for a person. Plus, a typical 2/3rds majority to unrename is unlikely at this point. -Wikid77 (talk
    ) 13:31, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
    • 400 people is a broad consensus. I doubt any of the policies have ever had 400 folks !vote on them. In fact, I'd say it's a safe bet for the closing admin to make that assumption and if I were them, I'd require evidence that the policy actually has the broader consensus.--v/r - TP 13:57, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
      • The closing editor isn't going to just tally up the votes anyway. See
        WP:VOTE. The discussion and good points brought up by engaged users will mean a lot more to the closing decision and rationale than how many editors wrote "oppose" or "support". NewAccount4Me (talk
        ) 17:13, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
    • The original rename was done summarily by an admin based on minimal or no discussion and then immediately move-protected. Since it should never have been done that way, the new name should not be treated as the default situation to fall back on if no consensus is reached. The default situation with no consensus is always the one that prevailed before the disagreement arose. – Smyth\^talk 19:04, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose....BLP vetoes other policies in this particular scenario.--MONGO 14:15, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose Those who argue that Manning has not legally changed her name miss the point of legal name changes. Their purpose is to ensure continuity, providing evidence that (to use a hypothetical) the person known as Alex Smith previously and the person known as Sam Smith now are in fact the same person. A highly public statement that the person previously known as Bradley Manning is now Chelsea Manning is quite sufficient to demonstrate that they are the same person. While such a statement may not satisfy legal requirements (though in some jurisdictions, even a private statement (if written) is sufficient) imposed on various government agencies, Wikipedia is not subject to such requirements. MaxHarmony (talk) 17:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC) [edited for clarity MaxHarmony (talk) 18:55, 27 August 2013 (UTC)]
• Oppose per "New York Times to Call Chelsea Manning by Her Preferred Name" and "NYT, AP to refer to Manning as 'Chelsea'" - looks like there is a new common name, and accords with MOS. That happens, like when people get married. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:13, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose changing the article's title back to Bradley Manning.
  WP:COMMONNAME, I note that both AP and The New York Times are now referring to Manning as Chelsea and using feminine pronouns. Gobōnobō ^{+ c}
  18:58, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
• Retain article at Chelsea Manning. Per Jimbo's reasoning, and also because that Manning's declaration was about as unambiguous as they get.Tazerdadog (talk) 19:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose per
  MOS:IDENTITY. We respect the subject's declared gender identity. There has been a lot of discussion about how Wikipedia doesn't take a political position. Any position we take on this issue is political - if we change the article title to reflect Manning's new name and gender preference, we are being inclusive and tolerant. If we do not, we are deciding to endorse less tolerant views. We can couch it in any language we like, but that is the reality of the situation - we at Wikipedia have to make a choice and we should choose to respect Manning. Wadewitz (talk
  ) 19:22, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
• I read
  WP:BLP are designed to trump it per the principle that lex specialis derogat legi generali. I find the suggestion which some have made, that the article have the title "Bradley Manning" but use "Chelsea Manning" throughout, particularly odd, like Solomon's suggestion of cutting the child in half... if one concedes that the subject should be addressed as Chelsea, why would one title the article "Bradley"? I agree with the arguments presented by Morwen and Gerard in their "!vote rationale", and with Guettarda's comment of 14:20, 28 August 2013. -sche (talk
  ) 19:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC) (additional comments added 22:36, 28 August 2013 (UTC))
• In the light of the recent AP announcement to henceforth use the "Chelsea Manning" term (as well as a similar statement by the New York Times), I think that by now, it is safe to say that "Chelsea Manning" is the correct title of this Wikipedia artice, per
  MOS:IDENTITY: In my opinion (I elaborated further down that discussion and which remains valid), there just is no transgender issue at all, the reason why the common name of the Wikileaks whistleblower changed is not of importance.--FoxyOrange (talk) 20:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)(changed my mind again, see below).--FoxyOrange (talk
  ) 19:40, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Per
  WP:IDENTITY, "[when verifiable], the term most commonly used for a person will be the one that person uses for himself or herself. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification." And see the AP announcement for verification. As Jimbo said, we ought to very strongly defer to how people identify themselves. Some supporters cite "procedural objections," but this isn't a bureaucracy: it's an editorial community, and the appropriate discussion is being held. —wing gundam
  20:07, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
• Wikipedia
  isn't a democracy so why are all these good people attempting to vote here? If there is a vote in future, please let us know. In the meantime, don't count any votes here, just weigh the arguments. Thanks - Pointillist (talk
  ) 21:57, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support - This controversial move was premature, and locking it in place set the stage for much of the vitriol which followed. Had
  Bradley Manning -> Chelsea Manning, I would be leaning towards support, but would suggest that we wait another few days to see how the media sources finally settle in. Despite the noble intentions of many of the editors here, WP should not lead the media. -- ToE
  23:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
  • @
    WP:BRD should have been observed. NickCT (talk
    ) 01:36, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose, I feel that the name should stay at Chelsea Manning. I recognize that some parts of the article will be awkward, but I believe that respect for the individual’s preference is more important. SchreiberBike talk 23:25, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

28 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Just noticed this discussion is due to be closed soon and I hadn't commented yet. For me,
  WP:COMMONNAME in clear cases such as this one. Robofish (talk
  ) 01:22, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
  • @
    MOS:IDENTITY say anything about titles of articles? NickCT (talk
    ) 01:39, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Fair point, not specifically. In that case I'd say it also comes down to a matter of general decency and respect for a living person's wishes. Not meaning to say that those who support the move lack such decency or respect; only that, for me, they're reason enough to go with Manning's preferred name here. Robofish (talk) 02:04, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
      • If Wikipedia went by the person's wishes then we would have to write about why Manning feels he/she is not guilty of a crime. Im sure getting out of prison is up there with one of Manning's "best wishes". - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:06, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Per
  WP:commonname. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ross Hill (talk • contribs
  )
  • As has been said at least a dozen times, because this is a name change move
    MOS:IDENTITY does not apply. - Knowledgekid87 (talk
    ) 03:26, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
    • As has also been said a dozen times,
      MOS:IDENTITY talks about "gendered nouns," and it is only a small stretch from there to regarding a chosen name as a form of gendered identification. For example, User:BD2412 makes a similar observation in his sandbox page assessing the situation. So whilst the wording of MOS:ID does not explicitly accommodate titles or given names, it is not nearly as clear cut as "does not apply" makes out. Chris Smowton (talk
      ) 10:02, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
      • A lot of things could be read into policies if we are willing to make "small stretch"es. And anyways, names usually don't absolutely assert gender. NickCT (talk) 12:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
        • Sure, I'm not arguing that there is an existing policy on name usage, but that such a policy would be congruent with this existing, closely related one. Names certainly don't always assert gender, but ask a thousand people the gender of an unknown Bradley and they'll say male, and similarly Chelsea, so these names do strongly assert gender. Chris Smowton (talk) 13:23, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - I retract my "support" to revert back to Bradley and must say this. I have never seen such a huge ruckus like this before. Move to Bradly, move to Chelsea, re-move to Bradley, re-move to Chelsea, and the list goes on. That aside, this... person made a decision on oneself. Sources use "Bradley", while other sources use "Chelsea". Still, I am on the limbo. No gossip is yet made; she made a decision. Nevertheless, there is not yet an operation or a hormone therapy.
  the GID diagnosis flawed, I am really now torn on naming matters. --George Ho (talk
  ) 05:04, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm finding it hard to follow what you mean by "I found the GID diagnosis flawed". Do you mean for Chelsea Manning, or in general? (Just FYI, "transgender" is an adjective, not a noun.) 7daysahead (talk) 13:08, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Manning's wishes, GLAAD guidelines, growing recognition and use in the media, certainty of eventual change. As one commenter below pointed out, "Bradley" is now neither accurate nor neutral. Should be a no-brainer. – Miranche ^T C 06:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not bound by guidelines issued by outside organizations. It would be especially troubling to give weight to a policy published by an organization devoted to advocacy, no matter how well intentioned. DPRoberts534 (talk) 18:36, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Every organization is devoted to advocacy of one kind or another, openly or not, and GLAAD is no exception. In addition, GLAAD is devoted to fair representation of minority sexual and gender identities, which in this case means representation of these groups on their own terms. The burden is on those who argue to not respect their preferences to demonstrate that these are somehow non-neutral or misleading. If, say, an organization represents itself as "race X pride" or some such, but in fact works openly to deny rights to members of other races, so that their own stated wishes are deliberately misleading and factually incorrect to cover up an aggressive agenda, that would constitute an argument not to follow their preferences. In the transgender case, the preferred nomenclature does happen to challenge parts of what most of us were brought up to believe as default, but the very point is that this was not neutral in the first place, as it made an existent group de facto invisible. So unless it can be demonstrated that there is significant disagreement within the transgender community itself on how they want to be represented, or that their preferences somehow infringe on non-members, following GLAAD guidelines is as neutral as it gets. On the other hand, deciding consciously to disrespect known guidelines issued in their name, especially when one of the main points of these guidelines is to provide ways of recognizing the very existence of the group, constitutes advocacy against them and so cannot be defended as neutral at all. – Miranche ^T C 00:30, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

This is an organization

WP:COMMONNAME and others. We are free to apply GLAAD's guidelines here in our own edits as long as they do not conflict with Wikipedia's policies. Also, there is some question about whether GLAAD's guidelines are compatible with NLGJA's recommendations when describing pre-transition events. DPRoberts534 (talk

) 07:53, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose move to
  Synchronism (talk
  ) 07:19, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support move back to Bradley. If this was Cat Stevens we wouldn't even be arguing this; pretty much all of this person's activities that were notable were associated with the name Bradley. I also consider it an abuse of the rules to immediately move a page when there is no consensus, and then to require consensus before being able to move it back. Ken Arromdee (talk) 07:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support - change it back: Wikipedia (which purports to be an encyclopaedia) and it's talk pages shouldn't become a forum for LGBT activism
  WP:ACTIVIST . "Sensitivity" for Private Manning's feelings (who is a criminal convicted of treason) is just a red herring. This entire episode has been a phenomenally successful work of internet activism; The topic of transgender-ism (originating from THIS very page) has now made most mainstream media outlets (with the exception of the left wing press, the reputation of wikipedia has taken a severe battering). I suspect fund raising for Wikipedia has now become much much harder. TeddyTesseract (talk
  ) 12:46, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
• OpposeSupport: In my book we should have waited until the gender changing had been done. It would have made more sense to do that. What if he changed his mind? (Unlikely but not impossible) Anyone who voted it to be moved to Chelsea would be kicking themselves! I sense a
  WP:CRYSTAL violation in the midst of all this. MM (Report findings) ^{(Past espionage)}
  13:05, 28 August 2013 (UTC)