Talk:Engagements on Lake Ontario

Repeated POV assertions by anon IP. The anonymous IP 82.28.237.200 (talk) has made repeated assertions to the effect that the entire contest was a "Decisive British Victory", on the grounds that

The engagements were a decisive strategic victory for the British, due to their far more powerful vessels on the lake, deterred the American fleet from setting sail. The result of this was that the lake remained in the hands of the British, so the Americans could not launch an invasion of Canada.

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In addition to being inaccurate (and apparently written without reading the article), this view of US War Aims belongs in the main article on the War of 1812, where this IP has already made assertions that because the US did not win decisively, they were therefore defeated decisively. No serious history of the War makes any claim that the overall result of the War on Ontario was anything but an expensive draw. Assertions of decisive victories by either side therefore are

NPOV HLGallon (talk) 00:17, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply

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It was a strategic victory for the British, because the Americans could not set sail, and thus control the lake so no force could launch an invasion of Canada. It appears you base the assumption that because the US history departments say it was indecisive, it makes it so. And NOWHERE did I claim that because the Americans did not win decisively they lost decisively. The fact that the British controlled the lake because the Americans did not set sail, the Americans could not launch an invasion of Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.28.237.200 (talk) 16:09, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do please read the article, or do some research. I have made no assumptions based on a US history department (who are they, by the way?). For your information, I am British. Your puerile claim that "...because the Americans could not set sail, and thus control the lake so no force could launch an invasion of Canada" does not stand up. In 1813, the Americans launched three invasions of Canada, although one of these (the attack on York) was little more than a raid. For late 1813 and from July to October in 1814, it was the British who could not set sail, but the Americans did not take advantage of this due to Chauncey's intransigence. The British did finish the year with a triumphant game-winning volley by putting the St. Lawrence into service, but since winter soon set in and the war ended, this was a rather empty "victory". I regard your assertions to the contrary as both OR and POV. If you have any reputable source to back them up, please quote them. HLGallon (talk) 18:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the Americans could not and did not launch an invasion up the Lake Superior route. With the British in effective control of the lake, and with no threat of an invasion, I'd call that a strategic victory at any price. And nowhere did I say you were American. Practice what you preach in terms of making statements without evidence. Also how is it an empty victory? Whether the war was nearly over or not is irrelevant, they did not know that at the time did they? The Americans could not launch an invasion of Canada, and thus a strategic victory had been won. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.28.237.200 (talk) 16:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strategic Victory

I believe the result of these engagements should be changed to "Tactically Indecisive, Decisive British strategic victory". The strategic victory is on the grounds that, even in the article, it states that since the British were effectively in control of the lake after they launched HMS St Lawrence, the American troops could not invade Canada through the Lake Ontario route because they did not have superiority on the lake. Sources claiming it a strategic victory are slim, due to the fact this engagement is rarely even heard of, but I believe it should be changed to a strategic victory at the least, if not a decisive one. (Trip Johnson (talk) 10:01, 11 April 2008 (UTC))[reply]

What you, or I, believe, is irrelevant to Wikipedia. What is relevant is that any fact or argument should be cited in reliable sources. There are three or four such listed at the bottom of the article. They all concur in concluding the result to be indecisive. Roosevelt, and Elting more emphatically, reckon that the Americans ought to have won in 1813 but fluffed it. This does not constitute British strategic victory, and Forester is equally certain that the British should have won in the same year, but also hesistated and therefore lost.

I cannot accept your argument that the launching of a battleship constitutes in any way a strategic victory. The "St. Lawrence" was active in the last four months of a war which lasted two and a half years; and for two of those months the fleets of both sides were frozen into their harbours during winter. During those four months, there were over 20,000 redcoats in Canada. The US Secretary of War (James Monroe) reckoned on being able to concentrate no more than 15,000 US Regulars for the campaign of 1815. There was neither the means nor the intention to launch an "invasion" late in 1814.

Finally, it has to be asked what "invasions" the British flotilla actually prevented. The attack on York in 1813? To be fair, had this attack been made against Kingston, it might have been decisive, but the failure to attack the more profitable target was due to Chauncey's and Dearborn's timidity in the face of imagined hordes of redcoats rather than any deterrent effect of the British vessels. The attack on Fort George later that year? Above all, Wilkinson's invasion, part of the "Montreal Campaign" late that year? This was a serious attempt to strike at a major strategic target, and failed through the weaknesses (poor command, logistics and training) of the US Army. HLGallon (talk) 19:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• HMS St Lawrence 001.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:36, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]