Talk:Flemish

• The top header here says 'neutrally'. Many users created the article, of which one insists on keeping it and only one destroys it as if there cannot be just as normal a disambiguation page Flemish (disambiguation) beside the article. Verifiability is available through the article's links and no statement is questioned even when asked. 2006-12-15 12:47 (UTC) [Moved from Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Language and linguistics Andreas  ^(T) 16:08, 15 December 2006 (UTC)][reply]

(The above was added to the mentioned request, as all requests there without signature; it was my addition because Peter Isotalo's request violates the page's demand to state it neutrally, only argumenting his views and pretending my actions reflect 'one user adding information' in disagreement.) Note that several users, of whom some with a good deal of experience on the English Wikipedia, had decided to change the initial redirect, then for a year a short article, than for 2 years a disambiguation page, into a proper article - an initiative of

15 Dec2006

18:21 (UTC)

You're doctoring my quote. The RfC says "At least one user is insisting...". And, like pointed out before, there has been no discussion as to why the normal dabpage policies should be ignored for this relatively uncomplicated topic. It's not me vs. a few regulars to the Flemish-issue but rather the consensus of a lot of various guidelines and policies vs. this particular page. There are no precedents and all I see here are editors who are trying to make a not-too-complicated issue a lot more complicated without trying motivating themselves. It's a classic example of article-writing intended to please contributors rather than readers.

Peter ^Isotalo 16:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You obviously try to overwhelm me by attacking at multiple sections/pages, I presume for having an excuse of doing whatever you like on a pretext of one or another of your comments or edits not having been responded to. Your repeated personal attacks towards contributors as if these are writing on Wikipedia for their own sake, and continued maintaining that guidelines force only one proper Wikipedia style, whereas several options exist and some clearly direct towards the style of disambiguation that you want to avoid, your trying to attack the validity of the article on all possible and impossible accounts, including putting no less than three flags on it while modifying the article so as to make it less intelligible, all show you go through great lenghts and amazing means just to force your personal way upon Wikipedia. You also accuse me of doctoring your quote: "At least one user is insisting on adding information" as I stated reflects, 'one user adding information' (note: I did not quote literally, like you I use doublequotes for such). Either 'many', 'several', 'three', 'one' are OK but "At least one" means you have no reason to assume more than one and thus strongly suggests there is only one. Yet now you try to hide behind these 'weasel words' in order to launch a personal attack and yet shamelessly put the 'weasel words' flag on the article. I just spotted your "the intention of certain editors" in the section above:

personal attack? If you would have thought the article really had no good reason to exist, you should have followed my advice to put it up as an article for deletion; instead you ran to RfC regarding 'Language and linguistics', probably hoping to find easier support for a standardized approach of such, even while I argued that the article is not supposed to fall in that category. I am not impressed. — SomeHuman 17 Dec2006

05:12 (UTC)

Don't be a jerk. I know what I wrote and I'll be the judge of what I meant. You're not in a position to reinterpret what other people mean. End of discussion.

And there's not a peep in the guidelines about having to put up content for AfD. Content can be removed, moved or altered with a good reason. We delete articles, though, but that's not what this is about.

Peter Isotalo 09:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I added an RfC-request to

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Style issues

as well and tweaked the description to focus on the dabpage guideline issue.

Peter ^Isotalo 10:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Double Rfc: 1. at 'Language and linguistics', 2. at 'Style issues': Nobody jumped to your assistance, so now you try elsewhere. Your assumption in the above section as to what is a personal attack is not correct, your "Don't be a jerk." is even a violation of what you said in the section above that would not happen; your 2nd Rfc is exactly and deliberately as biased as your first Rfc that I had denounced for its lack of neutrality; your arguments remain as false ares your methods and admitted intentions. PS: Sorry for not logged-in IP-edit a moment ago both here and in the article, of course both are mine. — SomeHuman 17 Dec2006 14:12 (UTC)

It's not a second RfC, it's an expanded listing and is in fact a more accurate description of the conflict, since this is about an exception to a general guideline more than it is about Flemish as a dialect/langauge/variety. And trying to tell other people what they actually mean by misquoting them is extremely uncivil. Claiming that I, and other readers, should know better because you used just 'citations' rather than "citations" is like claiming you didn't mean something because you secretly crossed your fingers.

Peter ^Isotalo 14:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is a second RfC. And not about an exception, primary meaning = title of the article is the general rule. At most it's about not applying an exception that has become common for some kind of articles, since the reasons for that common exception are less appropriate. I did not misquote because I said "reflect" and as explained mentioned your message without the weasel words. But you do continue to render my words falsely: I did not say that other people should know better because anything I claimed, but because they are by now very likely to be all too aware of your ethics as reflected by your behaviour with respect to the article, your betting on all horses, the style of your comments. — SomeHuman 17 Dec2006 18:59 (UTC)

For someone so eager to throw around accusations of personal attacks, you seem far more excited about commenting (your interpretations) of my behavior than explaining your own edits.

The rule is that for terms involving both ethnicity and language/dialect/variety, no particular meaning is supposed to have precedence. I've already shown you tons of of examples, and I've never seen any examples to the contrary. This is the only one and that's why you need to motivate the exception. The content here obviously tries to pre-empt

Flemish (linguistics)

(but without a hint of verifiability), which benefits no one.

I'm taking Rex' suggestion for a compromise and I'm moving the article-esque content to Flemish (terminology).

Peter ^Isotalo 16:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You launched two different

19 Dec2006

00:27-00:34 (UTC)

You give easy samples, I have better things to do than looking up samples whenever you click your fingers while not being prepared to wait for reactions of myself or other Wikipedians.

19 Dec2006

01:33 (UTC)

Actually, Flemish (terminology) was Rex' suggestion which seemed to gain favor from Andreas as well.

Those examples do not support your case in the least. They either have a very intuitive primary meaning (

Acadian), or actually mean only one thing as a noun (Arabic

). And every single one follows the same pattern of pointing to a well-defined, non-duplicate articles or normal, straightforward dabpages. You're insisting on neither, but rather trying to present Flemish as completely unique and I believe this description is confusing and misleading, especially to those who are unfamiliar with the topic.

And stop removing the weasel- and reference-tags before you've done something about the problem.

Peter ^Isotalo 10:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rex suggested a compromise, Andreas gave the Macedonian sample. I did not support the compromise and found the sample hardly comparable, which of course is shown by comparing; you claimed that Macedonian cannot be compared with Flemish and even blamed me for doing so. It is then ridiculous to now pretend that you rely on that suggestion and that sample. You simply want Flemish out of your way at any cost. You put both RfC up after all that, but are not willing to wait for a reaction.

The 'weasel words' tag cannot be taken serious, there is no dodging or half-heartedness in the article; you never gave any example of an improper 'weasel' statement, nor anything else that jeopardizes the neutrality of the article as the tag declares. Many statements are all too obvious, any doubt about one or another piece of informaton being correct is easily verified by following the link. References are not required for a disambiguation page either, and the article 'Flemish' gives an orientation by leading the reader along the different meanings and connotations that have their own articles for further details. Any dubious statements are to be inline tagged by {{fact}}: which precise item(s) of information appear(s) uncertain to you? You should also take notice that I already did some work on the article since your earliest drastical intervention. So I leave the tags out for which you did not provide a single sample of a statement that requires something to be done about. Before modifying one dubious statement about influences on German Limburgish that I had encountered in the article, I am still waiting for Rex' reaction on his talk page. Were it not for your daily interventions disrupting the article, it might even have been improved further.

Your comment about the samples not supporting my case, show your determination to go your very own way regardless arguments. You had said, QUOTE: And I doubt you'll find a page where a language/dialect/ethnicity isn't disambiguated at "XXX" rather than "XXX (disambiguation)", but I encourage you to try. END QUOTE And later on blamed me for not having delivered. Now I have, you wave it away as if not supporting my case in the least. Please stop this kind of behaviour. —

19 Dec2006

18:26 (UTC)

OOPS. I hadn't even noticed, you already put six 'fact' tags in, besides the general 'no references' at the top. For instance:

"The dialect groups spoken in the present-day

19 Dec2006

18:50-19:49 (UTC)

You're presenting examples that you've interpreted in a very subjective manner. If you want a very concrete example of why they're inappropriate, you should consider

dictionary definitions

.

I've included the reference tags because there are a lot of statements which are completely unsupported. It doesn't mean that everything in the particular sentence is problematic, but the claims about "A and B is referred to as X and Y" are. Who claims that X and Y is reffered to as A and B? This is not a trivial matter since you might just as well be stating your own opinion for all I know. Either you have sources for your statement or you don't. Claiming that people can find them in "other articles" isn't satisfactory in the least. If you know where the references are, then just add them. If you don't, you're obviously not in a position to remove the requests for references.

If you want examples of weasel wording, then here you go:

• ...some people then refer to this standard language as 'Flemish', others prefer to call it 'Dutch' and may consider 'Flemish' as inaccurate, or belittling especially if used by an outsider.
• The term Flemish is sometimes used in its limited sense for the West Flemish and East Flemish dialects, and may include the forementioned variants in the French and Dutch parts of the historic Countship of Flanders.
• ...its classification as a Flemish dialect is disputed, as some linguists consider it as a German dialect) [sic].

And this is all from an article which doesn't cite a single source.

The example you've given just now, where you speak of "usurped" power is also problematic since it seems to express a great deal of resentment without backing it up. It may be true, but like with the rest of the content, no one can actually tell if it's a widely held belief or just a minority opinion.

Peter ^Isotalo 13:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't go bananas as quickly as you think, Peter: My user page makes clear that I am a proud Mechlinian who natively speaks Mechlinian. The Mechlinian is also a shepherd dog, a race I rather like actually – though for a sheepdog a nervous and difficultly trained animal. In fact I added the dog to the section 'Specialities' in the article

Belgian sheepdog

. My home city was first known in English as 'Mechlin' (hence an inhabitant or one who originates from there is a Mechlinian), in the first century of Belgium's existence especially on postcards as 'Malines' (French), and now best again by the name in its local dialect and Dutch, this time even spelled identically: 'Mechelen'. Since speakers of English more often learn French than Dutch, the dog I call a Mechelaar in Dutch and Mechelèr in my dialect, is better known as Malinois than as Mechlinian, in each language and dialect the term can refer to the dog as well as to myself.

I was sure you did not grasp the meaning of

WP:WW

. Also the used "sometimes" simply means what it says, it cannot be replaced with 'between 5 a.m. and 3 p.m.' or 'around dinner time' or 'in the second half of the 20th century' or 'while people are upset'... The statements in the article are clear and not half-heartedly, as far as I can spot only using these words in the proper way. If you would give a practical example, I could give a practical response on where the reference is. But if a link evidently gives access to a whole article that relevantly details what is shortly stated, the statement does not require a source; else each article would require 90% references for 10% content. Therefore, your tagging is incorrect and for weasel words rather grotesque, though 'some linguists' indeed seems truly weasel talk. But that is precisely the one phrase that I had stated here above on 2006-12-19 18:26 (UTC) to have doubts about and for which I asked help from Rex on his talk page, so it's intellectually dishonest to pick out precisely that phrase I pointed out to be in error.

I do not quite follow your logic about 'Title (disambiguation)' pages for which you had asked samples, now complaining these all being

DAB

pages... Of course they are, and that is what 'Flemish (disambiguation)' is also. Whether that page is required or not is a different matter: perhaps 'Flemish' can fully serve that purpose, perhaps it can't and shouldn't. That's why I moved your initial (last week's) disambiguity text to that page name, and did not destroy the content as you had then done to the article content.

—

21 Dec2006

04:00-04:10 (UTC)

While there was no consensus for the dabpage issue, the article still needs a lot of work. Here are some issues:

• There is no lead and no actual delimitation of the article. What is the actual topic?
• The section "Flemish language" includes much information that is actually about neighboring dialects of languages other than Dutch. What is the purpose of this information? How does it relate to whatever topic the article is about?
• There are no references of any kind. The linguistic information is full of statements about how and where different terms are used, but without anything to support any of the claims. There's also used of rather partial wording like "usurped".
• Poor flow in the prose and plenty one-sentence paragraphs. Grammar needs work ("...lots of differences with standard French...")
• Much of the linguistic information is made out of bullet lists with very complicated and non-standard layout. And there are run-on sentences, with or without bulky and rather complicated parentheses:
  • Note that French Flanders is larger than the Flemish-speaking area (now in only small parts of today's French department of Nord, as near Dunkerque) and includes for example the metropolitan area of Lille (see the official name of the TGV railway station: Lille-Flandres) which has never spoken any Flemish dialect (except in the Belgian part of this now continuous urban area), but rather a dialect of French locally named Ch’timi.
  • The Belgian French minor variant (that linguists consider being the same language as standard French, not very different from regional variants of standard French in France), but it is used very often instead of standard French in the federative region of Wallonia in Belgium (and legally accepted like standard French, in an ongoing process of unification with mutual influences between international or regional minor variants of standard French).
• There's also what appears to be conclusions drawn by editors rather than supported by sources.
  • Since the notion "Flemish" is a container for a number of quite different dialects of Dutch (and sometimes of German, due to the historical cultural continuum from West to East!), it has little sense linguistically to treat it as one entity. "The Flemish language" does not exist, although the notion is used as such in everyday language.

Peter ^Isotalo 22:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good and useful criticism, Peter. (I may disagree with a few items, though.) I was not too happy with the comprehensive subsections on the French and German languages, those do not quite belong here - hence I never bothered too much about obtaining a decent quality standard therein. The conclusions drawn by editors (just one: Verdy P, I think) largely correspond to "Though the term 'Flemish' is used often, its different definitions regularly cause ambiguity." - which is my opening phrase of the "Flemish language" section that further on shows the ambiguity as the reader can judge for him/herself. I did not remove that largely duplicating criticized paragraph because the one below it (which also needs some work) refers to it and also to the French and German. I assume perhaps getting rid of those or at least some serious cutting would be most appropriate though - and it will help to see what the topic actually is. But that very last paragraph is not entirely without merit and I must try to bring this in context without maintaining the stuff that does not belong in the article.

I had already put a {{fact}} at the Lille phrase, in Dutch the city is called 'Rijsel' and the Dutch language certainly went deeper (Cambray aka Kamerijk, assumedly even Amiens) into present France than is claimed in that paragraph ; the named local dialect is probably much more recent; but I do need to obtain decent sources before changing it.

The 'usurped' has been used to describe the, let's say absorbing, of powers; but here too I like to find the term that is most appropriate and one has to crawl through a bit of legalese to work that out (though I'll have a source then).

I'm not sure when exactly I'll have the time for all this, but I will do some more work on this article. — SomeHuman 5 Jan2007 00:32 (UTC)

Why were the tags removed? Nothing has been really been fixed, just rearranged and slightly reworded[1]. There's no topic specified and an "orientation for general meanings of Flemish" is still just a different way of telling that it's a verbose dabpage. The "See also"-section, taken straight from Flemish (disambiguation), only makes it more obvious. And, of course, still no a trace of references, despite the considerable amount of information. How long is this page supposed to be in this state and for what reason? It still seems though it is being kept in this condition to satisfy a few firebrand editors, not readers.

Peter ^Isotalo 01:50, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is the other way around: The 'Flemish (disambiguation)' page copied the "See also"-section from this page. It is not my idea to have a specific disambiguation page as you know, but if it exists it is logical that it has links towards the same articles that are related to the topic. If anything, that is if a specific disambiguation page has merit, it should state non-related or far-related topics and then have links to more articles. But the sense of having that page by that title was sufficiently discussed and I don't see how its existence can do any harm. The 'Flemish' article being what you call a verbose disambiguation page, or rather comprehensive explication with sufficient background to understand the differences and relationships between aspects or meanings of Flemish, is not new. I'm afraid that three weeks may sound appear a long time for you, but I explicitly asked for some time and in the last 3 weeks I had my hands rather full. Anyway, I assume I will now be more available for WP and some improvements are supposed to follow within the next couple of weeks. By the way, the tags were not removed but brought on top of the sections that after the small but meaningful improvement, still required the tag. (Note that the one tag there asks for both cleanup and sources.) Kind regards. — SomeHuman 28 Jan2007 12:10 (UTC)

I was trying to provide a chance to fix the problem because I thought something would be done about the quality, but it appears that this is not going to happen any time soon. It does not take three weeks to acquire sources for this type of basic topic, and even if it does, I don't see why you would remove the tags, since they could incite others to fix the article and inform readers that they should be wary about the facts stated here. I don't understand what would possess you to try to sweep this under the rug. Keep in mind that you still don't

own

the article.

And "sufficiently discussed"? There was no discussion when the article was filled with "background" and there wasn't even a majority supporting the idea in the RM vote. If we were to ignore the fact that we voted on a subjective fait accompli-version rather than a neutral dabpage which had been around far longer and is in line with all other similar... no, identical language/ethnicity terms, this would never have happened.

And you have some really strange notions about the edit history. Read up, please. It's been a proper dapage since September 2004. The verbosity you and others inserted came along only this summer, and that was based on the last version of the original dabpage, not the other way around.

Peter ^Isotalo 12:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Peter, it started as a DAB page and after several attempt to make that work, contributors took another approach. Moreover, you know this: it's been explained in my 'oppose' vote to the requested move. A lot of of the 'background' was weeded uot by myself and such till where the tag states the rest of the section to need cleanup and sources. The part above the tag does not need further cleanup. What has been discussed is your unreasonable demand of sources: WP:V is met because each statement has a very obvious link to an article that corroborates the statement and handles the related issue in depth, as said on

WP:POINT, see December 19, 2006. As I said earlier, there is one 'fact'-tag in the already cleaned-up part of the article, which is the way to indicate a non-verifiable statement, not by putting a banner on top of what is otherwise verifiable. Do not forget that the "Flemish language" section starts by links to main articles: such are references as well (else those would require a banner). If 15 days is not the near future, than how urgent do you think this to be, the page not having been edited by others in weeks and only us coming to its talk page? So have patience and do not again put in banners where these can only harm; any time I have to spend here, only postpones the delivery of a quality article. — SomeHuman 30 Jan2007

23:40 (UTC)

You're acting quite unilaterally on this one. I'm far from the only one who sees a problem. If you're not prepared to deal with it, let others do it for you. The tags are supposed to encourage this.

Peter ^Isotalo 13:01, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am once more trying to bring in more opinions on this by listing this dispute at

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Style issues

.

Peter ^Isotalo 13:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The page as it stands is a strange hybrid of a disambiguation page and an article. It seems to me that the part about the Flemish language should be merged into the

See sections "#This is not an article", "#Responses to RfC" (there had been one Rfc at 'Language and linguistics' and one at 'Style issues' like this third Rfc — all by Peter Isotalo), "#Requested move", and finally "#Cleanup issues". I do not intend to give the same argumentation once more. I'm now working at the article as Peter Isotalo realizes very well, and this time Peter Isotalo is not going to succeed into making me fed-up looking at 'Flemish' by going through the same discussion over and over again with him or whomever he calls in for the occasion. Sorry for your trouble, CMummert, but enough is enough. I had put up the deadline in my last two comments here above and intend to keep it, regardless Peter Isotalo's continued nagging and inappropriate taggings entirely disregarding often repeated counter-argumentations, and I do no longer care how many Rfcs that by now appear all to clearly construed in order to prevent me for doing the job that was set out to do as for which in an earlier Rfc I had volunteered and was asked to fulfill. — SomeHuman 3 Feb2007 23:57 (UTC)

What counter arguments? Your main line of argumentation is that Flemish is utterly unique and impossible to compare to anything. There's nothing to argue against in such a claim, because there it's just subjective speculation. There's no consensus for the poorly written dabpage hybrid layout, and every time I ask for another RfC more outside observers keep agreeing with this view. (It's not like I have to call in "allies" or actually campaign for it.) Unless you can show proper consensus for the deviant pseudo-article you're taking forever to write (and refuse to reference) I'm going to revert the page back to the dabpage version and let you work on a subpage until you've actually finished whatever you're aiming to do and convince others why it should be the only exception to WP:D.

Peter ^Isotalo 13:08, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've moved SomeHuman's work in progress to Flemish/rewrite for the time being and reinstated the normal dabpage. I am going to insist that the page be kept in this state until there is actual consensus for the hybrid article/disambiguat page and not for the reverting of a format that had no consensus to begin with. The idea that a six-month stint without prior discussion should magically be considered the consensus version is absurd. The RM vote and the RfCs clearly show that SomeHuman's line only has a rather weak minority support at the moment, that it has no real backing by guidelines and policies, and that it is supported primarily by a lot of nationalist argumentation.

Peter ^Isotalo 05:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As Peter Isotalo obviously owns 'Flemish' and continues to make the same false accusations over and over again as if I claim that 'Flemish is utterly unique' (I already stated that for instance 'Chinese' could be better served with such article) and as if my arguments are nationalist (and even 'primarily'), while he kept incorrectly changing the section-tagging towards whole-article tagging; while I for once declared not to respond on his intended annoyances, changing an important section title of which I had earlier (2006-12-14 21:00 and 2006-12-15 02:44) stated its doublequotes to have good reason, and once more destroying the most proper link to Dutch language; and while I still kept quiet, finally once more unilaterally reverted to his personal page against two of his Rfcs (one in which I was given the time of 'a few months', which minimally coincides with what I asked later as '15 days' and which time Peter Isotalo refused to respect; the other Rfc —disregarding the former Rfc, and by someone who had his recommendation ready before even realizing that the 'main'-linked article 'Flemish (linguistics)' exists and assumes we might not be aware of

WP:DISAMBIG to which Peter and I had already linked on December 14— wanting to merge the article content into that one, which Peter Isotalo did not do), has caused me to acknowlegdge this page to be the property of Peter Isotalo: I do not wish to work under such circumstances. I'm sure there cannot be many 'hybrid disambiguation' pages, as Peter Isotalo personally guarantees those to disappear. — SomeHuman 11 Feb2007

17:09 (UTC)

I had not seen this article before I saw the RfC I responded to. I was surprised to find that there was a main article on the Flemish language because this article, as it stood until recently, was clearly out of agreement with the overall project consensus on the role of disambiguation pages. I thought I might go ahead and split out the material that clearly needed to be taked off of the disambiguation page, but then I was shocked to see there was already an article for that material, but for reasons unknown to me this article was duplicating it. CMummert · talk 03:04, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any kind of consensus for granting individual editors a certain amount of time to do as they please with the page on the talkpage. Besides, I don't see how it would be compatible with

WP:OWN

in the first place. And I can remind everyone that I'm not even pushing my own prose here, but a previous version that I had basically no influence on.

Peter ^Isotalo 16:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If CMummert would have checked anything (article talk, article history, talk history, and such for the disambiguation page), then CMummert would have known, and thus not be so "shocked to see there was already an article for that material". And that it was not the article 'Flemish' that had been duplicating the disambiguation page, but Peter Isotalo's disambiguation page that copied from the cleaned-out article. The third Rfc by Peter Isotalo worked for him: Someone was finally found who likes commenting without hindrance by knowledge. I never tried to

12 Feb2007

22:26 (UTC)

Is it really that hard to understand that the shock was from the revelation that someone had been irrational enough to duplicate an existing article on a dabpage? And to make things perfectly clear, this is how the page looked before it got seriously bloated.

But I guess you're going to conjure up yet another cantankerous conspiracy theory to brush that off as well. I can hardly wai... *gasp* Shiver me timbers! What's this!

Peter ^Isotalo 23:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No. There is no conspiracy: you act all by your own. You do willingly and knowingly deceive people by continually suggesting things about me that are pure lies and repeating such even after having been corrected, because you know very well that there are more CMummerts than people who actually verify facts. I never called 'Macedonia' a vague term but said it to have meanings that are "vaguely related", to which you then refer as a "purportedly vague term". I've not been making 'nationalist' argumentations, I never claimed 'Flemish' to be 'utterly unique', I never 'conjured up' anything, I never suggested a 'conspiracy', you insinuated by "I don't see any kind of consensus for granting individual editors a certain amount of time to do as they please", that I had imagined such idea, knowing that I was asked whether I could clean up and improve the article in the direction you were fighting against and for which I had answered (quote) "given a few months and provided the article keeps its visibility as primary meaning by the present title, I will improve it and hope others do so as well." (end quote), after which the Rfc you had called was closed as 'no consensus' (smart: "I don't see any kind of consensus"). Such does however leave the article in place and one would definitely expect me to work at it; and you did not respect that but kept tagging it and making changes you knew to be particularly annoying, and then reverted it to the largely useless disambiguation page still within the time I had said to need (I do not doubt that you noticed that condition I had given). And you of all people know that 'Flemish (disambiguation)' was created only because you insisted on having a traditional dab page and had been edit-warring by repeatedly reverting the article to what you wanted and now have again, but that is not what you connivingly suggest here above. — By the way, your links to modifications are just as clever: the ridiculous one was a first attempt by Verdy P who then made a few dozen improvements on that same day, which series I later improved; the link at your signature dates from long before that editor or I ever touched the page, precisely as this one; you just forgot to mention those little facts. — SomeHuman 13 Feb2007 00:38-02:30 (UTC)

The point I was making was that the dabpage existed far longer than the hybrid project and I wasn't the one who championed the idea.

Now, even if we disregard the fact that there is a broad and well-established consensus that dabpages are supposed to be minimalist navigation pages, not full of article content, it would still be a pretty shoddy article. It was written in stilted prose with plenty of fairly irrelevant and unencyclopedic information, confused layout and without a single reference. Just get over the fact that you're not entitled to personally decide how individual dabpages should be written and start working on improving

Flemish (linguistics)

instead.

Peter ^Isotalo 16:50, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thus the point you were making was besides the point, it's very well-known and that too you know. Even if your whole point of view would have been completely correct, it would still not make anything of my former comment less relevant & true, and that includes others having decided. And I'm not the only one not to accept your viewpoint as the more valid. — SomeHuman 14 Feb2007 04:59 (UTC)

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Flemish which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 21:15, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]