Talk:Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken

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'Austria' as a hymn tune

"For some people, using this particular tune for the hymn (often named in various hymnals as "Austria") evokes painful images of

Holocaust." I have a problem with this deletion. It is unsourced, and if an editor challenges it, it can be deleted. However I know for a fact that the statement is true. My late father (who was a Methodist minister) would never use the tune because it upset members of the congregation. To be fair, this was in the early 1960s in the English Midlands and a mere twenty years previously the Luftwaffe had been raining bombs on their heads. Directly opposite the chapel were the remains of a bombed out house! Can anyone find a citeable source please? I can't revert on the basis of personal conversations. Thanks Martin of Sheffield (talk) 15:15, 7 March 2015 (UTC)[reply
]

@Martin of Sheffield: I have readded and reworded that section. I don't blame them personally, I have similar thoughts in the back of my mind whenever that hymn is played in church. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 18:24, 7 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 November 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. The original publication has a separate title. (non-admin closure) George Ho (talk) 16:58, 2 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:CT says that a separate title would justify uppercasingimplementing title case on titles of works. However, I am uncertain whether the title itself is separate from the first line of the hymn. Both the title and the first line, "glorious things of thee are spoken", are the same, not different, even with different casing. At default, let's shall lowercase implement the sentence case for the whole title. Also, if the guideline is not enough, let's use Talk:Flow, my tears#Requested move 20 September 2016 as substantial precedent to this. George Ho (talk) 23:32, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply
]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
  • Oppose, per common name of the hymn until it is shown that the hymn has no name and the common name is just a repeat of the first line (but wouldn't that then still be its common name, thus title case?). Randy Kryn 16:02, 1 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as per above. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 23:25, 1 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Let's get the terminology right first.

  • Upper case = GLORIOUS THINGS OF THEE ARE SPOKEN
  • Lower case = glorious things of thee are spoken
  • Title case = Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken
  • Sentence case = Glorious things of thee are spoken

I strongly suspect that George is proposing a change from title case to sentence case. Drop any suggestion of "uppercasing" or "lowercasing" at once! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 00:57, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why can't uppercasing and title casing be interchangeable? Why can't lowercasing and sentence casing? In the meantime, I made corrections per terminology. --George Ho (talk) 01:52, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Pickup or not?

The bar lines are offset by two quarter notes between the LilyPond snippet in the article, which has no pickup, and the same tune in File:Nationalhymne der Bundesrepublik Deutschland.svg, which has a pickup of two beats. Joseph Haydn's manuscript matches the latter. What accounts for this difference? --Damian Yerrick (talk) 17:18, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. The 1861 Hymns Ancient & Modern (the standard C of E hymn book in the UK) doesn't list it. Hymns Ancient & Modern, New Standard of 1983 shows it with the anacrusis. The 1933 Methodist Hymn Book also shows the anacrusis, so I suspect that this is a "feature" of The Army and Navy Hymnal, a work of which I'd not heard before now. Perhaps the anacrusis fell overboard as it crossed the Atlantic? The transcription shown is consistent with the scan, see here Martin of Sheffield (talk) 19:37, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Tune Galilean

@Epiphyllumlover: Whilst I agree that the tune you linked is now correctly titled, I'm not sure how it is connected to this hymn. The word "Galilean" only occurs in your link nowhere is it discussed in the article, still less cited. Can you please provide some sort of justification for the external link or I fear it may be deleted again. Regards, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 20:13, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is used for this hymn in the 1941 The Lutheran Hymnal. I don't mind if you delete it; I agree it is uncommon and I prefer to sing it with Austria anyway.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 20:28, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ah! Probably for the same reason that "Abbot's Leigh" came to prominence. In 1941 the Nazi-German national anthem did not inspire thoughts of heaven, rather the other place! Since it is a fairly fringe use I will delete the link, it would need explanation and citations otherwise. Regards, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 20:55, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The hymnal handbook is unusually terse for this hymn, and explains nothing. Makes me wonder what the hymnal committee was thinking. Maybe that whatever they said would make somebody upset, so they shouldn't say anything. I searched, and found a blog complaining about this pairing, stating, "it seems inadequate, freighted with the imagery of limp-wristed pleading"[1] as the blog writer preferred Austria instead.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 02:48, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think it still has a place as a mention in the main body of the article, just not as an external link. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 14:29, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In any case, I have hunted down acceptable versions of both more common tunes (AUSTRIA and ABBOT'S LEIGH). Mention of further alternative tunes is of course welcome; but then again we do have to apply some form of editorial judgement as I don't think we should mention every single tune which might have been used for these words in only a few hymnals... (per this, there's more than 30 tunes these words have been set to...) Maybe a simple sentence to the effect that there are other alternative tunes. Unless that's
WP:SYNTH? 107.190.33.254 (talk) 20:49, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply
]
@The C of E:; @Epiphyllumlover: 107.190.33.254 (talk) 20:50, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for looking into it; do what you think is best.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 00:41, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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