Talk:Horror film/Archive 2

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

I'm wondering if we will need a censorship section as the article progresses. I find that it can probably be moved to specific sections once we build them up a bit more (i.e: Germany's new regulations on films in the 1980s led to the german underground horror) and the UK Video nasties scare will effect a section on British horror, while anything more major (i.e: UK's ban on horror films and such that cut down horror production in the 1930s) can be properly be shown in the history section, as it was basically on the United States making horror films at that period. The same can be said for China and others. Thoughts? Andrzejbanas (talk) 20:54, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

This section should really only be a very broad or brief overview if it's left in; I think it's worth reflecting on horror films as a whole as being particularly scrutinised, attracting controversy or being censored altogether. As mentioned above, the regional section is already becoming quite long and will likely lead to more split off articles, meaning parts on regional censorship may eventually need to be split off too. Let's remember this article should provide only a broad overview of the topic, one aspect of which is censorship/controversies. What do you think? Arcahaeoindris (talk) 10:47, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

As i'm searching through it, I feel like that could be in a reception section as banning of horror films is mandated by governments/film boards, which are geographically based. I'm sort of envisioning a reception section that sort of states how horror films have changed (criical reception has grown much more friendly towards critics as critical analysis and research has been done in the 1990s/2000s and I have the sources to back this up!). It's more of a wait and see kind of things, but this is what i'm leaning towards. I'm not saying sections or topics aren't valid, i'm just seeing how it's easier to organize them. Andrzejbanas (talk) 10:55, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

This makes sense to me; if that's what sources lean towards sounds good. There's also already an article on Vulgar auteurism as linked. Arcahaeoindris (talk) 11:10, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

As we've expanded on this section, I've started moving some sections around and combining others. For example, I've changed Australia to Australasia as I feel like we can cover both New Zealand and Australia as they occasionally make co-productions and both really only got seriously into the film business in the 1970s and 1980s, and perhaps really only started developing their own horror film identity in the 21st century. This task might be even more complicated than the regular timeline of horror, so wish us all luck and I'm happy to hear any more suggestions with it. Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:39, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

I've expanded on the European horror films. While horror films are definitely made all around Europe, I feel like we've hit the main sources of it. My Spanish section might need some tidying up, but I feel like you get the idea across. I'm curious if we should include the United Kingdom there because I feel like it's almost a seperate entity that doesn't have quite the same similar styles and co-productions that the others do. I think the Asian horror section needs a bit more balancing out (which will be tricky). Beyond that, I think we could include some American specifics, but ...that should be enough? I think Australasia (or at least, New Zealand and Australia) is good for now, as the history of horror films in those areas is sort a relatively new thing as their film production, especially in genre films, seems to have only really kicked off in the mid 2000s. Andrzejbanas (talk) 13:43, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Really excellent work @Andrzejbanas: I agree the section is looking very good. May just need a bit of minor cleanup for wording/conciseness. If there are any other European countries known for their horror cinema (e.g. Czech? Poland?) could always add a brief note in the lead of the section. I'll see what I can do to expand the Asian horror section. The risk now is that the section becomes too long - it is already over 30,000 bytes according to the section sizes template above. As with history though, if there is enough scope this could lead to more article splits e.g. Eurohorror, or Italian horror, etc. and then be replaced with the excerpt template. Arcahaeoindris (talk) 10:43, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

I feel like it will get complicated as those countries (especially the Eastern block) did not really have an industry of it. As mentioned in the earlier section of the article, we should probably focus these on geographic-based cycles, rather than individual countries. I.e: Italy definitely had a cycle of giallo, zombie, gothic etc., France has a small cycle with their new french extremity and have dabbled in it. Honestly, if it weren't for the New French Extremity, i wouldn't give them their own section. Ditto for Germany which barely made anything, but that German Underground Horror thing is definitely something to notice, Spain however, has a horror cycle that even got revived in the late 90s/2000s but it's surely not as intense as Italys. I feel like these Czech or other countries could get brief mentions inthe lead if they have tiny little blips of something notable, but from my research these are the countries that had the biggest impact, the grandest cycles, as well as the most sources to back it up without feeling like we are pulling at straws. Andrzejbanas (talk) 10:51, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Great, in that case sounds like you've covered the key bases :) I believe you, in which case bulk of Europe section sounds like it is finished. Have also added a brief intro sentence for Asia. Hong Kong and Chinese language films definitely are still missing here, and I'm even thinking Malaysia could deserve a mention (albeit probably a fairly brief one). Do you think any of these regional sections could be split off into new articles to keep the length down? Arcahaeoindris (talk) 11:08, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

and also potentially the United Kingdom. Arcahaeoindris (talk) 11:09, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

And also African horror films actually. I haven't found anything on Nollywood horror yet (if much of it exists), but there are a few sources on South Africa and Ghana from a brief search. Arcahaeoindris (talk) 11:19, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

I mean, i feel like a lot of them will end up like the Indian horror film section where we repeat ourselves saying "There is minor horror development in [country here]". I think India should be included as it's one of the major film production places in the world, but I don't know about the others. As for splitting it up, let's just keep building it and after we're, well, not "done", but perhaps satisfied with what we have, we can figure it out how we should split it up. Doing it pre-emptively might be shooting ourselves in the foot. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:29, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Almost as a joke I revealed that the well-received 1972 movie musical Cabaret had most of the elements of horror films -- freakish characters, weird goings-on, and bad things happening to good people. The bad things going on may have been what everyone knew would go on with the rise of the German Nazi Party, and its rise would be associated with

, ominously expressed in the brutal killing of the beloved dog of the (Jewish) Landsteiner family. After plenty of vulgarity and the shock (highly effective at the time of the movie's release), the real horror comes from the bucolic scene in which a squeaky-clean young man sings to a receptive audience of conventional people the tuneful song "Tomorrow Belongs to Me". The receptive audience joins in to become a chorus that leaves no question of what Nazis would be like.The sexualized entertainment and the transvestite characters of the Kit-Kat Club would be no more.As shocking as transvestites were in 1972, Nazis were far worse -- even if they were super-conventional types.

Elements of horror flicks are clear in the movie (and some stage adaptations, of which there are many) and they are necessary.Pbrower2a (talk) 13:44, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Sounds like

WP:OR, in all the research i've done for years on this site, I can't say Cabaret has come up in conversation. Andrzejbanas (talk

) 19:27, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

That is why I put that here. Political reality, whether in Nero's Rome or Weimar Germany, can itself be horror.Pbrower2a (talk) 09:41, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

not sure what you are trying to get at here but outside personal musings it doesn't really seem to be about improving the article. Andrzejbanas (talk) 03:09, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

I note this issue was previously touched on here in May of last year (now archived). A

18:41, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Editors can of course discuss this, but please note that the recent change was only done in an appeasement effort to halt talk page harassment, and that is no way to arrive at consensus.

MrOllie (talk

) 22:48, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

@

wolf

23:04, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm inclined to give the editor who originally made these changes the right of first reply. They've been inactive for a couple days, but thankfully we have no deadline. And actually, making edits because a banned user pestered you is improper and incorrect, see

MrOllie (talk

) 23:07, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Again, you haven't addressed the actual content here. And while you cited wp:proxying, have you read it? Because I've complied with it. Also, I didn't make the changes to stop a banned user from "pestering me", I made them becuase I believe they are obvious and correct, and they improve the articles. As I pointed out in my OP (have you read that?), the changes were already made by another editor, (not "Jinnifer", but

wolf

00:37, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Please also see

nonsensical personal opinions as though they were facts, and just as readily vandalized pages in addition to edit-warring.--Mr Fink (talk

) 23:43, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

All of which has either been addressed or doesn't apply. -

wolf

00:37, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Hey sorry. I'm not sure specically what edit you are discussing that I undid. I did undo my own edit, it was probably because I either changed my mind. I usually leave an edit summary, but it might have been just me having a slip of the finger as well. Happens. Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:29, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

@

20:53, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Are we talking about the split between 2010s and 2020s? I feel like there isn't enough content for 2010s and 2020s to be split yet (namely for the last decade, especially with the draught on films due to COVID pandemic.) In my view, what I was trying to do was expand other sections of the article so we could slowly weed out what we don't need in the brief "history of horror section" and place it within subsections of the article. I haven't quite had the free time to really take a swing at it recently, but that was kind of the direction I was going. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:41, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

@

wolf

16:30, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

I understand people being upset about content being out of order but honestly, even separating it my decades is implying every decade has it's own style which is not true as things very and continue one within decades. Anyhow. I don't want to a new section for the 2020s yet because there isn't enough information to fill in there. Sections that are a single paragraph long don't really require a subsection. Unless there is some specific wiki rule here, while

MOS:OVERSECTION states "Very short sections and subsections clutter an article with headings and inhibit the flow of the prose. Short paragraphs and single sentences generally do not warrant their own subheading." This basically is why we aren't doing this now. Andrzejbanas (talk

) 03:06, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

@

wolf

04:17, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

The editor is not being blocked because we don't like their ideas. I even agree with some of them. They are blocked because they have continued to vandalize the site by adding unsourced information, not contributing to discussion on their edits, and continuously harassing editors. Anyways, once the section can be expanded upon in a reasonable way i have no objection to adding it. Beyond that, anyone who can read three paragraphs and basic headings will understand the content. A one sentence section that states "no films were really made" is like having a chapter in a book be a single page. Andrzejbanas (talk) 04:51, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

"They are blocked because..." - I'm aware of why they're blocked and I'm saying it shouldn't matter. It shouldn't have had any impact on decisions to improve the article, though it seems that is just what happened.

"...is like having a chapter in a book be a single page." - you say that as if that never occurs in books, yet it does. But that is besides the point, I'm obbiously not suggesting that there be a "2020s" section that simply states: "no films were really made", (which is a strawman argument anyway). Films have been made, as seen in the

16:22, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

You haven't really suggested anything beyond why it's absolutely positive we need a seperate section. I've listed the wikipedia rules on why we don't split excessively. I personally think it makes sense per the rules standards. Once it can be expanded upon, go ahead and add it. As for now, you haven't really convinced me with your "it doesn't make sense" argument to break wikipedia standards. Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:31, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

I have repeatedly stated my position, and have gone well beyond "it doesn't make sense". Reducing my position to that shows that you either have no interest in discussing this is in good faith, (which makes all these replies of your some kind of exercise in argumentative must-have-last-wordism), or you don't really understand my comments. I've posted 7 replies and approx 8300 bytes of text, so there is certainly more than just "it doesn't make sense". And while you may have cited part of the MoS guidelines, you haven't shown how my suggestion is in any way "excessive", (or otherwise how the guideline in any way applies). I've tried to make this as clear to you as I can, but I'm not going to argue with you just for the sake of arguing. So congrats, the article lacks an obvious improvement, you still haven't addressed the need for a fork, but at least you showed that block evader who's boss. Have a nice day -

wolf

19:53, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Hey hey. I'm 100% not trying to ignore you, but what have i missed? As for "the article lacks an obvious improvement", you can say words like "obvious" but I've shown the rule why we don't just add the section. It's been standard stuff with several articles I've worked on (some album articles warrant enough information on a release and a separate receptions section, others do not.). Re-reading your comments it seems to be mostly "well we used to have this section". The previous form of the horror film article was unsourced, and far too large. A section will be created when there is enough information for it. Feel free to add stuff if you like, but otherwise, i think this is why no one is really jumping in. Andrzejbanas (talk) 20:54, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

QED. I think we're done here. -

wolf

22:35, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Sure. If you change your mind i'm happy to figure things out in the future. Andrzejbanas (talk) 03:59, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Every user who has committed each and every ban evasion has kept asking me to restore the 2010s and 2020s-present section of the Horror film page. They have been doing this to me time and again, every chance they got. So could you please do something about this before another ban-evading user starts bothering me again? AdamDeanHall (talk) 15:07, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

The place to raise user behavior problems is

MrOllie (talk

) 15:21, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Furthermore, there is little that can be done to stop banned user Jinnifer from abusing new IPs or making new accounts with which to continue harassing other editors into editing on their behalf beyond blocking those IPs and accounts once we determine Jinnifer is behind them.--Mr Fink (talk) 16:00, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Well, we could always just change the "2010s-present" section into two sections for "2010s" and "2020s". It makes sense, it's an improvement and whether you guys like it or not not, it's gonna happen eventually anyway. Seems silly to deliberately not improve a page just to teach a sock-hopping troll a lesson. -

wolf

21:04, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Except for the problem that it's a demonstrative fact that appeasing trolls, especially sock-puppet masters, never encourages them to stop their misbehavior. Besides the fact that banned user Jinnifer can not be trusted to either behave accordingly, make meaningful, beneficial edits, or abide their own worthless promises, then there's the problem of having a section that's supposed to chronicle and describe movies in a 3 and a quarter year time period.--Mr Fink (talk) 21:12, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

The demands aren't even consistent - they used to edit war to impose fewer sections lumping more decades together. Or sometimes they want to remove everything pre-1970.

MrOllie (talk

) 21:27, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Hence my statement about "meaningful, beneficial edits." Until there's a way to permanently bar banned user Jinnifer from editing again, the only standby is to use

WP:DENY until that current incarnation is blocked again.--Mr Fink (talk

) 21:34, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

And there's the problem right there; editor's that are more focused on making sure some troll doesn't "win", even if that means removing an obvious and inevitable improvement to an article, one supported by other editors in good standing. That is not a sound editing practice, and not one supported by an actual policy, as opposed to an essay. -

wolf

00:11, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

You're making a lot of assumptions about what other editors are focused on. I happen to think

MrOllie (talk

) 00:17, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

"I also firmly believe that people who are only showing up here because a troll is harassing them cannot contribute to any sort of consensus." - Yep, like I said... there's a problem here. But fortunately, you don't get to decide who can and can't contribute to consensus, or who can edit articles. -

wolf

00:30, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Currently, the recommendation of appeasing a troll who has a demonstratively evolving set of demands has not gained consensus, either, especially since said troll can not be trusted to cease harassment nor vandalizing once their demands are met.--Mr Fink (talk) 00:36, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

And having said that, there does not appear to be enough material or events that justify splitting "2010s to Present" into "2010's" and "2020-present" at this time.--Mr Fink (talk) 00:38, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

@

02:02, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

@

MOS:OVERSECTION which states "Very short sections and subsections clutter an article with headings and inhibit the flow of the prose. Short paragraphs and single sentences generally do not warrant their own subheading." This is standard Wikipedia rules which should be abided by. Andrzejbanas (talk

) 05:37, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Well, you're responding to a post from a week and half ago, during which time no one else has posted here and I haven't even looked at this page, never mind editing it, meaning this

wolf

05:53, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

As some of you would know from the recent revision, I had been asked by Jinnifer under the user name of Onghske u r out ror u yeah u to do that when it asked me about a favorite horror movie. If you don't believe me, look at their message under the heading "Question" on my talk page. I'd like to let you people know that last night, I had no idea that the user was a sockpuppet account for a blocked user until @NJZombie: revealed it in his revision. As for the sock puppeteers, perhaps they might be wanting the 2010s separated from the 2020s for their personal reasons that I have seen that you people are up against. Right? Rtkat3 (talk) 14:34, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Rtkat3, nobody is upset with you concerning the changes. You’re not the first person this block evader has tricked into doing their bidding and you probably won’t be the last. No worries! NJZombie (talk) 14:48, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

That, and

WP:DENY is the best method with dealing with Jinnifer and her sock puppets.--Mr Fink (talk

) 14:50, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

"You’re not the first person this block evader has tricked into doing their bidding..." - gee, that's not at all insulting</sarcasm>. Just because a sock puppet pointed

wolf

00:49, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Except that now, banned user Jinnifer wants to merge everything from the 1970s to today.--Mr Fink (talk) 15:28, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

It would appear that is some sort of an attempt at reverse psychology, to get one of the gatekeeper editors here to say "no, we need the section to be divided into decades", at which point Jinnifer would then say "Ahh-ha! I told you so"... or something like that. (Who really knows what is going on inside their head...?) -

wolf

18:42, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Nothing so complicated, their demands are just that inconsistent. See the diff I linked toward the beginning of this section.

MrOllie (talk

) 19:34, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Splitting Vs Lumping

Currently, consensus is for keeping the 2020's merged with the 2010's because there is not enough material for 2020's in horror films for it to pass

) 00:16, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 July 2022

This edit request to Horror film has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I have a citation that corroborates the date of the enactment of The Motion Picture Production Code in 1930 (AKA the Hays Code) and its replacement by the MPAA rating system in 1968. The citation is from 'The JSTOR Daily', the article is titled 'The End of American Film Censorship', and the URL is: https://daily.jstor.org/end-american-film-censorship/ Poppedballoon (talk) 02:49, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

 Done Added to Censorship section I assume you were referring to. Might need another source for the end of sentence but I removed the citation needed tag. Next time please make your edit request in "please change X to Y" form. Thanks WikiVirusC^(talk) 03:03, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Horror movies and Goth are not the same things. Goth is a music

) 00:57, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

We have plenty of reliable sources (cited over on

MrOllie (talk

) 01:01, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

That book states that David Bowie and Joy Division are Goth precursors. David Bowie never did gothic rock or any of its 4 subgenres. Joy Division was an early gothic rock band that has had a big influence on the goth scene. The Crow and Dracula have nothing to do with Goth. Dracula was written years before the formation of gothic rock or any of its 4 subgenres. The Crow also has nothing to do with Goth and is simply darkly inclined. DarknessGoth777 (talk) 01:12, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Again, we follow sources, not personal opinions.

MrOllie (talk

) 01:15, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

How is that a personal opinion? DarknessGoth777 (talk) 01:35, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Who said goth and horror are the same thing? Agreed that "Bela Lugosi's Dead" kicked off the goth movement and subculture. This article clearly states the song was inspired by bassist David J's own binge on horror movies. The song itself is written about a horror movie icon. This article is a discussion of horror influences of the goth subculture. Influences ARE connections. Saying horror existed before goth did is not an argument in your favor. Horror and goth didn't need to start at the same time for there to be connection between the two. As MrOllie has stated, we go by the sources provided, not by some YouTuber's how to be a goth guide. NJZombie (talk) 02:27, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Please add

) 18:17, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia Ambassador Program assignment

This article was the subject of an

Wikipedia Ambassador Program

during the 2012 Spring term.

Above message substituted from {{WAP assignment}} on 14:58, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• 960 cannibal holocaust blu-ray 6o.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

"Horror is a film genre that seeks to elicit fear or disgust in its audience for entertainment purposes." Disgust? As disgusted as some viewers may be at some horror films, it would be an individual reaction. I'd volunteer that the number of films that intentionally set out to disgust an audience are out of the norm. I'd vote to replace "disgust" with "unease." The News Hound (talk) 18:57, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Support - I would offer the same. While there are movies like Beetlejuice, that should probably be under a horror subgenre of disgust. Horror in general is simply intended to elicit fear in audiences, simple as that. JudgeJudyCourthouse25 (talk) 16:19, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Disgust comes from the cited source, unease does not. If we want to change the definition we need a new matching reliable source. I also disagree that it's an uncommon goal for this genre, consider films like the Human Centipede or the works of David Cronenberg.

MrOllie (talk

) 16:38, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Support. Honestly we should go by the prose we have. What is and what isn't a horror film is often subjective and as another cite in the article states "there is no pure agreement on what the horror film is". Andrzejbanas (talk) 20:35, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

This edit request to Horror film has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Citation 264 directs readers to an article by John O'Greene and Glenn Sparks, however, the article listed is by Glenn Sparks, John Sherry and Graig Lubsen, per the doi link (https://doi.org/10.1080/08934210500084198). This article does not mention the ecitation transfer process mentioned in the wikipedia text. Could the cited reference please be removed from the page? JGarnettAU (talk) 14:16, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

 Done Lemonaka (talk) 19:49, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 January 2023 and 18 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ashley Rodgers90 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Jneezy504 (talk) 03:05, 8 April 2023 (UTC)