Talk:Isie Smuts/GA1

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Nominator: SusunW (talk · contribs)

Reviewer: The C of E (talk · contribs) 20:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for picking her up. I look forward to working with you to improve the article. I'm hip deep working on another article, so please ping me when you are finished and ready for me to answer. (note 2 u's, no a) SusunW (talk) 18:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a link for PEople's Council (in English or Afrikaans) that could be
    WP:REDLINKed
    ?
  • Per
    WP:IC
    , citations should be at the end of a sentence and not on a comma.
  • I don't see that in that info page (not guideline, not policy). It says "Inline citations are often placed at the end of a sentence or paragraph" and "Wikipedia requires inline citations based on the content, not on the grammar and composition elements." I take that to mean where you place the citation depends on what source you are using. I choose to follow standard academic citation style. When the source changes, I make a new citation, but because Wikipedia gives a warning if it doesn't follow a punctuation mark, I do it after punctuation. SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is W. Ackermann important?
  • Don't really understand what you are asking. Why does he have to be important? I suppose I could take out his name, but then to my mind anyway, "he lived with a neighbor" provides less context and is less accurate than with W. Ackermann. (Especially in light of below where you want the detail that he was in England to speak to British parliamentarians, this seems odd, but maybe I am misunderstanding?) SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I feel like the second paragraph is more focussed on Jan than Isie
  • I don't see that. It is a paragraph about them establishing their relationship. She is the subject of 4 sentences, he is the subject of 4 sentences, they (as a couple) are the subjects of 4 sentences. Seems balanced to me, but if you can give me specifics, I'm happy to revisit. SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just for consistency, are we using Dutch or Afrikaners to describe the Afrikaans-speaking South Africans? (ie. "She feared that the Dutch would be treated unfairly under British rule")
  • All of the sourcing uses Dutch or Afrikaner interchangeably. I followed that to avoid redundancy, and technically they were indeed Dutch nationals. When Britain acquired a colony, it did not impose nationality upon colonial citizens, but instead left the laws that were in place at the time of acquisition in place. British nationality applied only to persons born in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. South Africa did not have it's own nationality law until the establishment of the union, which was superseded by the British standardized nationality law of 1911. If you think it better to standardize the text I'm happy to do that. SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he went to England to try to convince legislators", which legislators?
  • Sorry, I am confused. Seems logical that if he is in England he is convincing British legislators, who else would be there? I've added British, but if that isn't what you meant, please advise. SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "gained a reputation as "Tante Isie" (aunt Isie)", reputation or nickname?
  • Changed it to read "became known as" SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The house was made of tin to prevent ants from demolishing it", rather odd phrasing there
  • Clearly you don't live in the tropics ! I've linked it to Carpenter ants, does that help? (We have some 40,000 different species of ant here in my part of Mexico. We've been in a literal war with the cutter and army ants for months, trying to preserve our garden.) SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the source, it doesn't explicitly say that she preferred being barefoot. (Unless I'm reading it wrong, could you clarify please?)
  • It says that she only wore shoes when she was visiting him in Cape Town: "in the grandeur of Groote Schuur…the only innovation of dress that [Isie] consented to, as Lady Moore observed, was to wear shoes in the house [or] for parties, when she could not avoid them". SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • " were written in Afrikaans, except in the period of the Boer War, possibly to avoid censorship",
    Wikipedia:SPECULATION
    and I'm assuming they messaged in English during the War?
  • yes. I've added "when they wrote in English" SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "exposing their secret stash. ", Secret stash of what? Again, rather odd wording
  • Seems clear to me. They hid "clutter" under a chair, which when moved exposed the things they had hidden. Happy to word it another way, or you can just edit it directly. SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is, but to my mind, needed context. Not a whole lot to say about she was raising children and running the farm that hasn't already been said. But it paints her life, pretty much showing she was living on her own because, basically, he was an absent husband and father. SusunW (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where is the bust of her?
  • No idea, source doesn't say. Don't know where the portraits by Simon Elwes are either. SusunW (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apartheid shouldn't be captalised
  • Are there any other views other than Chetty about her? Because I think its a little
    WP:UNDUE
    to spend a whole paragraph dedicated to one historian's view of her.
  • There are, which is actually a little surprising, because women's history is a relatively new field. Chetty's view does not differ from Carisa Smuts' view, who notes that Isie's life reflected the impact of the 3 wars, was confined by the view that women's place was in the home,(pp 91-92) and research on Isie, as a prominent wife of a politician, was important to understand the roles of South African women.(pp 94-95) I do not have access to the first biography written about her by Tom Macdonald, but Smuts,(p 100) states that he wrote "In some ways, her life has been a gift to South Africa, and as she has given the people of South Africa the building blocks on which to build racial peace, her work is lasting. She did much to change the story of South Africa” (Macdonald, 1946, p.12). Searching for that in the snippet, I find it on a different page, i.e. 14. I did not use Smuts because of the familial relationship (not saying she was not impartial in her academic analysis, but she admitted "it is important to note that Isie, as a relative of the researcher, was (and still is) very much admired by some of her surviving family members", so I thought it better to err on the side of caution when evaluating legacy). I also did not use Macdonald because I cannot access it. But, if you think it necessary, I can add this information. SusunW (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the Bibliography, are they all being used to cite things in the article. For example, I can't see what the Salvation Army source is referencing.
  • Everything in the Bibliography is cited in the article. The Salvation Army is the publisher of The War Cry, which is citation 11. SusunW (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @SusunW: Here concludes my review. I think it is a promising article but there are a few issues that I think might have come about from translation/policy differences between here and the Afrikaans Wikipedia. But I'll look forward to working with you on it. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 11:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nothing I wrote was translated from the Afrikaans WP article. Ian started the article with a translation of 79 words for the lede from the Afrikaans article. He ran into difficulty with another editor and I took over writing it. As a general rule, I never translate articles from other WPs. I may mine them for sources, but as I am responsible for ensuring that the content meets en.WP policies and guidelines, I have to read those sources myself to verify the information and write it to avoid copyvio. SusunW (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The C of E Thank you very much for your review. I truly appreciate the collaboration and chance to improve the article. I've tried to answer your queries above, but some require additional conversation. Please let me know of next steps. SusunW (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • I accept the explanations of the points I raised and I see the remedial suggestions otherwise have been done so I am happy to pass this. Well done @SusunW:. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 08:41, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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