Talk:Maine/Archive 1

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I think there are 3 more "Maine" besides the State so the page Maine should be a disambiguation page and the page of the state should be named Maine (US State).

The other three are at the bottom of the Maine page.

I know this can sound controversial to the natives of Maine, but they are not the only with that name in the world.

No but guess what; when someone says Maine 99% of the time it's referring to THE STATE! Your arrogant superiority not withstanding.

Agreed! If Maine is made a disambiguation page, you'd have to do the same for plenty of other states and/or places in this country and the world.

Did you check "What links here"? How many of them refer to anything other than the state? Very few, if any. RickK 04:33, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I second that. If Maine were a current administrative district of France, it might be different, but it is purely historical at this point. There should be disambiguation page perhaps, as Maine (disambiguation), but the default should definitely go to the U.S. state. -- Decumanus 04:35, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I third that. jengod 06:27, Mar 9, 2004 (UTC)

I reverted the three links in the attribution of the Millay quote. The quote is supposed to embellish and amplify the subject of the text. When three hyperlinks in color are placed so close, you get the text calling attention to to the quote - the exact opposite of the intended style. There are other places in the article where the items in the attribution can be discussed in their own right as full stand-alone subjects, if that is what is desired. -JN

I'm afraid your changes have made the quote material stand out even more than before. I am reverting back to the previous formatting. older≠wiser 16:29, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)

I agree about the formatting but not the link. Although one link is less eye-cluttering than three at this point, I would like to see none. If one is nevertheless for some reason desired, I would recommend a good external link, which I can provide. The Wikipedia article on Millay is, frankly, pretty poor quality. I can give the reasons for that assessment if you desire an extended discussion of literary criticism, although-as the point in this section is trying to convey- the interest should here be on Maine and not literature. I will post two revisions- one without the link and one with a high quality link. Choose which one you like - JN

Whatever the current quality of the Millay article, it is Wikipedia practice to prefer internal links over external links. Articles only get improved as people see them and decide to edit. As for whether Millay should be linked at all here, I don't particularly care all that much, but as many people will not know who Millay is, the link is helpful in this context. older≠wiser 19:07, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)

First, Baloney. If "It's Wikipedia policy", show me the policy. Second, most encyclopedia readers wouldn't know who Edna St. Vincent Millay is? Cut it out. If you think people know that little about literature, you should be sticking to geography topics, which is fine with me. JN

Read

Position in article. In an otherwise unrelated article, it is ALWAYS better use an in-line link to an internal article rather than an external site. As for your second point, I did NOT say "most encyclopedia readers wouldn't know" who Millay was. I said "many" and it is a very faulty assumption to presume that people reading an article on Maine would necessarily know who she is. As for your final comment, I suggest you read Wikipedia:Civility very carefully. Since you seem to have such an interest in Millay, why don't you improve the article instead of excising links to it? older≠wiser

19:33, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)

www.maine.gov has a good rendition of the border dispute.AFethke 17:52, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I will turn my hand to this this evening.... WayeMason 18:23, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I did some research. County Sunbury, who knew it even had a name and a capital, if oyu can call the occasional visit by a magistrate to campebello a capital. Hope this meets your your approval, I am going to insert something similar into the Nova Scotia page. WayeMason 19:15, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

YayAFethke 21:45, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

Is it Mt. Katahdin or Cadillac Mountain? Please find a source for this if you thik it's wrong.Gator (talk) 13:26, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

• The debate over the first sunrise has come up quite a few times, and it usually includes Cadillac, Eastport, and (sometimes) Katahdin. The U.S. Naval Observatory states that the sun shines first on Cadillac, and that's a good enough source for me. [1] - NightThree 13:23, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

But that's on January 1, when the sun rises in the southeast. Maybe it's different in June, when the sun rises in the northeast?

—wwoods 17:47, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I suppose it's OR, but using Starry Night,

Mt. Katahdin (45° 54' N, 68° 55' W, 1606 m)

1/1: 7:13; 7/1: 3:45

Eastport (44° 54.8' N, 67° 0.2' W, 10 m)

1/1: 7:11; 7/1: 3:50

Cadillac Mt. (44° 21' N, 68° 13' W, 470 m)

1/1: 7:09; 7/1: 3:53

—wwoods 19:00, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

It does indeed vary by season as —wwoods postulated above. There is apparentlyKatahdin a published analysis in the January 1972 issue of Yankee magazine that gives the following results:

• October 7 to March 6, Cadillac Mt.
• March 7 to March 24, West Quoddy Head Lighthouse, Lubec. Me (near Eastport)
• March 25 to September 18, Mars Hill (a hill/low mountain in Maine)
• September 19 to October 6, West Quoddy Head Lighthouse

Can anyone find a more current, published detailed analysis, or at least run down to a library that saves 24 year old magazines and verify the Yankee reference, then add it?

GRBerry

17:02, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I would also like to see more here -- because the note that it shines on xxxx first during the winter immediately begs the questions: what about summer? spring? where else does it shine first then? Would love to see more detail and an explanation, with source! Isoxyl 20:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I have a copy of the Yankee Magazine article. The Mars Hill Public Library has the original, as well as a number of documents and letters that were submitted by folks who put together the 'First 50-star US Flag Sunrise Ceremony' in 1960. Bigrock50 (talk) 18:45, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Hello! I am a writer for the Smithsonian's Center for Education, which publishes Smithsonian in Your Classroom, a magazine for teachers. An online version of an issue titled "Contrasts in Blue: Life on the Caribbean Coral Reef and the Rocky Coast of Maine" is available for free at this address:

http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/educators/lesson_plans/contrast/cover.html

It includes a background essay and lesson plans. If you think the audience would find this valuable, I wish to invite you to include it as an external link. We would be most grateful.

Thank you so much for your attention.

I'd just like to add that Maine rocks my socks! --Tom12384 06:12, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, new to wikipedia. However, the article says that under the geography section it explains how a large part of this state's interior is uninhabited. There is no geography section (and the link at the bottom doesnt link to anything!) --Tom12384 06:16, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Over on the article at the Trent Affair there is mention of Maine being in the midst of thoughts of secession itself during the U.S. Civil War, but I have never heard of this. Any Mainers/historians with knowledge care to share/elaborate. Seems this might be worth mentioning in the history section and/or correcting in the Trent Affair article. Any insight? Isoxyl 20:15, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the particular list called "Other significant cities and towns" is problematic. Unless everyone can agree on a concise definition of "significant," it has the potential to grow ridiculously long. It's already a tad longish, in my humble opinion. Everyone thinks there's something "significant" about the town they live in. What constitutes significant, and what doesn't? I propose just removing it, and possibly including a link to Category:Towns in Maine somewhere in the article instead. JamesofMaine 19:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, remove the "other" list, maybe even just leave the first column. --Polaron | Talk 19:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Went ahead and did that, after a few screwups. My comment on the last edit should have read "got it" not "got yet." (I'm trying to quit caffiene, and the withdrawl is messing with my head). Anyhow, if there is serious consensus against this change, revert away. JamesofMaine 22:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Would it be possible to add "All Info About Maine" as an external link? It has a ton of great information about the state of Maine:

http://www.allinfoaboutmaine.com

I tried to add it myself, but was told to take it here first.

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mainechick (talk • contribs) 16:02, 12 Oct 2006 (UTC)

I'd say no; it's not an official site, and there's no reason to favor this one commercial site over any other. | Mr. Darcy talk 16:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. Then why is Maine Info here?... http://www.maine.info —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mainechick (talk • contribs) 17:41, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't the one who added it, but at a glance, Maine.Info looks significantly less commercial than the site you're trying to add. There are a number of sites with information on Maine already listed;

Wikipedia is not a repository of links. | Mr. Darcy talk

17:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

It states on this page that Maine is the only state to have declared war unilaterally. That is untrue, or at least inaccurate. Vermont has also declared war. They declared war on Germany before the US government did: http://vtcommons.org/node/174 ALoponom 15:56, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The article says "Wind chill often reduces the winter temperature to lows beyond -20." The

Minor athletes, Pros with no outstanding records, really should not be included in a State's Famous person list. This would add substantial clutter to the Maine site, and would just boil down to a fan's list. At the very least, a person on the list should have merited a wikipedia page of their own BEFORE being included on the MAINE page. --Mitchsensei 05:39, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Politics section - Actually, Rich Whitney (G) won 10% of the vote for Illinois' gubernatorial race in November of last year. So that's the Green's best election bid yet. AdrianLaTraceJr 08:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Bold textCameronWhat happened to the page? It looks like tons of stuff was removed, any reason for this?

you're right, and I don't see a reason anywhere on this talk page. must have been a confusion in revertinshush it don't let the rome knowg vandalism. I'm fixing it now.--Alhutch 06:31, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Any word on Maine taxes, highest in the US, and what it's doing to jobs and folks moving away?
- Its second highest to New York.

• Not according to the Tax Foundation..

  Maine’s State/Local Tax Burden Highest in Nation During the past three decades Maine has consistently had one of the highest state and local tax burdens. Estimated at 13.5% of income, Maine’s state/local tax burden percentage has ranked as the nation's highest each year since 1997, and remains well above the national average of 10.6%. Maine taxpayers pay $4,719 per-capita in state and local taxes.

Wondering how to change the list of major cities at the bottom...Brunswick should be in there.

I never liked France much.............kool ok?

Wondering how to edit this State Entry?
The

Should this be "State of Maine"? What if we want to discuss the French province of Maine? -- Zoe

I've never heard of the French province simply called "Maine" before. I've heard it as "Maine-et-Loire" (whatever that means). Maine (US State) is just known as Maine and if it is moved then the person moving it would have to fix all the mis-directed links. My gut feeling is that the US state is the most well known "Maine" in the English language and therefore the US State article should remain where it is with the French province

maveric149

Works for me. -- Zoe

Cool --

maveric149

You're actually confusing the current French department of Maine-et-Loire with the historic

Maine (province of France), though I think your general point is valid. Funnyhat

00:08, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

There is no "Maine River" in Maine AFAIK. I live here, and have never heard of it. Might be one out-of-state though. Rlee0001 11:59 Oct 12, 2002 (UTC)

Maine Watcher

Brunswick should not be on the list of cities in Maine. Brunswick is legally a town -- the largest one in Maine. Maine Watcher 18:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

This is pretty pedantic, but I'm a geek, so...

This article calls Maine the easternmost state. Thing is, if you look on a map, a few of Alaska's Aleutian islands are actually across the border into the eastern hemisphere - so technically, shouldn't that make Alaska, rather than Maine, the easternmost state?

I agree. In a lecture for a geography class Im taking, the teacher just talked about how Alaska is the most western, eastern, and northern state. (Hawaii being the most southern.) Maine is not the easternmost state.

Easternmost state in the Western Hemisphere... how's that sound? NightThree 01:54, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

Disagree - When discussing a nation, state, city, etc. terms such as easternmost are relative to the whole of the nation, state, city, etc. It really has nothing to do with hemispheres which are only names given to halves on the globe. The fact that a nation is in two or more hemispheres has no bearing on which end of that country is furthest in a particular direction.

This is true. "East" is a direction, like "left" and "clockwise." There is no East Pole. WikiMarshall 04:48, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

It's the Easternmost of the contiguous United States. Put that. --Lithfo 06:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe it is still the Easternmost state, since as someone said earlier it is relative to the rest of the country, and nothing to do with hemispheres.Lostvalley 03:20, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Maine doesn't have the only border dispute in the US, but maybe it is the only "land" border dispute. There are maritime disputes between the US and Canada in the Alaska-British Columbia-Washington area, which actually led to a confrontation in the 90's (?) involving a fishing boat and boats from both the Canadian and US coast guards.

Actually, the state of Texas had a land dispute with Mexico from the time it was founded as the Republic of Texas, continuing thru it's annexation by the US, and up thru the signing of the treaty ending the Mexican-American war. Joncnunn 21:06, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Also the islands that is just outside the coast of Maine/New Hampshire are disputed over. Lord Metroid 16:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Just created this entry -- can someone with knowledge of this town (or reference books that mention it) fix this? There's not much on the Internet. Thanks, Badagnani 23:21, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure there is going to be much more to say. My parents live in Harpswell, which adjoins Bath. West Bath is a small town, population 1,800. This is a locality in that town. Unless there is some history for the locality - quite possible in coastal Maine - there won't be much to say. I'd recommend doing searches on history of West Bath and of Winnegance. —The preceding

GRBerry (talk • contribs

) . Oops, thanks for pointing out that I didn't sign.

I concurr with the previous unsigned poster's advice. Personally speaking, I've lived in Maine all my life, have been all over the state, and have never heard of Winnegance. The state is chock full of these unincorporated, blip-on-a-map localities that may have once had a stronger identity as a village or hamlet associated with a local industry. Once the industry folds up, the village basically just fades away.... just another failed settlement or ghost village with little clue as to whatever former glory it had. I suspect this might be the case with Winnegance, but I don't know for certain. JamesofMaine 23:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Winnegance is the name of a bay in the northern part of Casco Bay. The towns of West Bath, Harpswell, Phippsburg (and perhaps others) are located on or near Winnegance Bay. It's bordered by Bushy Island to the to the east and Jenny's Nubble and the New Meadows River to the west. Yhere may have been a village or other type of locality in the past named Winnegance, but to the best of my knowledge, no such town as Winnegance exists now. The only other reference to the bay that I know of is a "Winnegance Lane" located on Birch Point. Novatom 02:17, 10 May 2007 (UTC) Novatom 02:17, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

From what I've heard, similar to what JamesofMaine was saying, Winnegance was a name for the area "back in the day", but it has no real meaning now. This might be a situation in which a google search isn't the best way to go. user:ktwsolo 16:42, 18 July 2007 EST

I grew up in Maine and lived their for 18 years. I remember being taught in grade school that the name of the state came from the mainland (as opposed to the islands), as the current article mentions, but having travelled more widely since then, I suspect that the sole origin of the name comes from the département in France, known today as Maine et Loire. My reasons for this perspective are:

• A significant percentage of Maine's settlers were of French or French Canadian origin.
• Geographically, Maine is very similar to the French département of Maine et Loire. If you're from Maine, Maine et Loire is going to remind you of Maine in the most peculiar way.
• Are there any early American precedents suggesting that one refers to the mainland as maine?
• There is much historical precedent for naming places in the New World after familiar places in Europe.

If interested, be sure to see the current Wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maine_%28province_of_France%29 Bafooma 01:41, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

There is almost certainly right. Virginia or some other mid-coastal state would more likely have been named "Maine" if the number of islands offshore were relevant. Also, I can't figure out which link says anything about this while, here, I have a link. --Lithfo 06:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Some of you people from Maine may be able to help me pinpoint this location. It was on the ocean somewhere between Kennebunk and Saco. It is a state park with some kind of a weird name. It has a bridge that goes across to the beach. Anyway, if you can remember the name, let me know. Fundamentaldan 21:56, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

For this particular question it is best to know what I am talking about, namely the difference between 'Citizen of the United States and citizen of the United States for more information regarding this issue, read: Citizenship. The former is as defined by the constitution and is only a person born in one of the 13 orginal states of teh Union while the later is anyone granted citizenship by congress using the 14th Amendement.

Because Maine was Massachusetts before I wonder if it counts as one of the original states and hence have inalienable rights or if the people of Maine only have severly restricted privileges given by congress? Lord Metroid 16:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

... Upon further research, I am now unsure of the juridical playfield of citizen and Citizen if such things even exists. Lord Metroid 16:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

There is now a proposed WikiProject to deal with the state of Maine at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Maine. Any parties interested in taking part in such a project should indicate as much there, so that we can know if there is sufficient interest to create it. Thank you. Badbilltucker 16:57, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

  It seems a bit off in reading the article..

  100F to -35F seems quite documented and justifiable to print 

there are some other things to highlight 
 

The arctic flow is phenomonal at least once a year, it can even seperate it from quebec or
northwest t, making quebec area warmer (strangely) making ME colder than its surroundings from the north.Almost as "crazy" as the mt.Washington winds.The arctic blast really ought
to be mentioned.. there hasn't been a year yet we have not got a taste of it with a nw
or north breeeze that goes on for days sometimes absolutely frigid.It completely seperates my home states of southern new england as well with temperature difference.Dramatically, every year without fail since my move here in 1987. It could be as much as 40 degrees different form central/north maine to mass and coastal NH. The icebox of minnesota
has northern/central maine as its primary place to compare notes to. As for tornados, I
guess its like the question:"if there is a bear in the woods and noone is there to see it.."

 I personally helped build a house in the northern tip of maine due to a tornado climbing out
 of the saint john river valley, destroying property. We even changed locations at his
 request as the land owner claims its happened many more times than once.

Who documents that tornado stuff, if noone is there to document? .

~soob792~ 01:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Maine, like most of northern New England, has significant areas where Québec French is spoken, primarily along the border with Canada. In addition, according to the French language article, it is also an administrative language as well. Why is that not mentioned in the Maine article? -Daniel Blanchette 18:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

There is some information along those lines in the Race, ancestry, and language section, but perhaps you could add to it. I used to live in Biddeford, and I can attest that there are a lot of French speakers there — especially among the senior citizens.

—BMRR 15:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

As BMRR said, I live in Lewiston and French is a very significant part of people's lives here. (Lostvalley 17:43, 12 February 2007 (UTC))

From Maine Watcher:

According to conversations with the staff of the Maine Law Library and with Secretary of State Matthew Dunlap, there is no truth in either Maine law or custom to the assertion on the Maine page that French is an "administrative language" in the state. Where did the information on the page originate? Maine Watcher 18:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Removed the claim from this article. It is false, and appears to have originated on Wikipedia. See Voulez-vous: How do you say Wikipedia in French, pp 16-17, July 2007 issue of Down East: The Magazine of Maine.

Removed again, this is still a false claim.

GRBerry

01:25, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to add to this discussion. There is actually a least two major French dialects spoken in Maine. Quebecois tends to be spoken in the larger mill towns, while Acadian French is spoken in the St. John River Valley in N. Aroostook County. The folks up there often refer to the latter as "Valley French". Dan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.227.3.62 (talk) 15:59, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Can't find a reference to this anywhere, and what I could find says that Knox-Castrillo was never ratified by the United States

In an Extraterritoriality case, the railways of Nicaragua allegedly became legally part of the state of Maine under the Knox-Castrillo Treaty of 1911.^{[citation needed]}

Roadrunner 18:40, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

"If you feel the link should be added to the article, then please discuss it on the article's talk page rather than re-adding it. See the welcome page to learn more about Wikipedia. Thank you. --Nlu (talk) 16:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)"

What has been asked and what I tried to address in adding the link to the Maine page, is to address the French aspect in the state, and particularly, the women of French heritage. The "famous" list and also the purported what Maine is all about leaves much to be desired when the actuality of the population is not represented. There should be a list of books, like the one which I posted, that begins to reflect the actual diversity, history, population that exists in the state and is silenced due to an amnesia of memory, generations deep, about the true history of this country and continent.

I posted the link to the book, Canuck and Other Stories, because the book addresses that gap in the knowledge. http://www.rhetapress.com/ The book is an important book because it is authentic, written by the women who came to the U.S., Maine, via the land bride to work and live. It is also available in French. This is not a commercial. I am serious about making these works known.

The world is set to view all things in terms of best seller lists, profit margins, etc. that I think we are duped into believing that advocacy is the same thing as seeking celebrity. I think it is not. I advocate for the voices of Franco-American women in many aspects due to the fact of the silencings that have happened.

That was my thinking in adding the book. There could also be added books by the many other cultures, languages, etc. both historical and recent, immigrants that would challenge the "lighthouses, Longfellow, and lobsters" aspect of what constitutes the cultures in Maine.

If this wikiped is to be up-to-date...inclusion of local diversities is the way to go. And not being limited in view as the mainstream...lists.

RCoteRobbins

I'm fairly new to wiki so I hope I haven't trodden on any toes. However, the article implied that the center of population was Augusta, whereas in fact a quarter of the state's population live in the Greater Portland area (I live near there myself...) so I changed it and added a link to back up the assertion. --Guinevere50 23:46, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Using the coordinates provided by the Census Bureau in the reference, I found Maine's geographic population center to be NW of Augusta in a town called Mount Vernon. Since the section is titled "Demographics" I will plan on changing the article back, except edit it to "NW of Augusta in Mount Vernon". Also I will plan on deleting the reference to the city of Portland web-site, which isn't really relevant. Post here if that's a problem. Chrisbak 21:49, 22 April 2007 (UTC) Talk

It depends what you mean by 'population center'. It is certainly not accurate to say that a larger proportion of the population live in the Augusta area than live in the Greater Portland area. But perhaps the phrase has a different meaning? The city of Portland web-site was added as a citation for the statement that a quarter of Maine's population lives in that area.--Guinevere50 22:33, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The Census Bureau calculated the "mean center" of the state's population, like the "mean center" of the US population was in central Missouri for the 2000 Census. The word "mean" should have appeared in the article, and I feel I ought to leave that statement about the mean population center in the article - instead of describing the state capitol. This section is after all about Demographics. Also 230,000 (from the City of Portland web-site) divided by 1,247,000 (the state's population) is 18% according to my calculation - not "nearly 25%". If in doubt about editing articles, Editor Assistance can be very helpful, and the editors who respond are even nice. Chrisbak 01:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the statement should be that more than 25% live in the southern part of the state. According to the Wikipedia articles about Cumberland County, Maine and York County, Maine, the two southernmost counties in the state, the population of the former in 2000 was 265,612 and the latter 186,742 - adding up to 452,354, which is actually around 36%. If the phrase 'mean center' has another, more precise, meaning than 'the area that has the largest amount of population' in it, then perhaps that could either be linked or clarified?--Guinevere50 01:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Guinevere50, does

Mean center of United States population adequately explain the subject?--SarekOfVulcan

22:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

IP addresses that begin with 169.244 - i.e. 169.244.152.237 - are used by the Maine School (K-12) and Library Network.--Chrisbak 15:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully the vandalism from school-based computers will calm down over the summer while the kids are enjoying their vacations. ; )

—BMRR 22:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I've marked the assertion that "The first English settlement was established by the Plymouth Company at Popham in 1607, the same years as the settlement at Jamestown, Virginia. Because the Popham colony did not survive the harsh Maine winters, Jamestown enjoys the distinction of being regarded as America’s first permanent settlement." as dubious. The Roanoke Colony predates both of these by years; these sentences need reworking. Firsfron of Ronchester 22:04, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I think at most it needs some minor copyediting, not a dubious flag which indicates the facts are in doubt. Popham was the first intended permanent settlement in Maine, though I don't know if it was by the Plymouth Company; it may have been independent. (There may well have been earlier seasonal fish salting camps on the coast or islands; there is ample historical evidence that such camps existed at around the same time, but details of when/where are essentially non existant as they were temporary and purely commercial.)

GRBerry

01:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

No, the fact is in doubt. The article states "Because the Popham colony did not survive the harsh Maine winters, Jamestown enjoys the distinction of being regarded as America’s first permanent settlement." Had Roanoke survived, it would have been the first permanent settlement. There is some attempt in this article at establishing the Popham colony as the first, but it is neither the first colony (that's Roanoke) nor the first permanent colony (that's Jamestown). The "fact" is not correct. The statement can be made that Popham was one of the first temporary colonies, or that it was established at around the same time as the first permanent colony, but the statement cannot be made that the Popham colony is not regarded as the first permanent colony because it did not survive the harsh winters but because it wasn't even the first temporary colony. Sadly, I knew before I even added the tag that it would be reverted. Wonderful. Firsfron of Ronchester 02:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

If you feel so strongly about it, why not simply make the appropriate changes, rather than just tagging it as dubious? That's the only way the article will improve.

—BMRR 03:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

If I get reverted for just adding a dubious tag, imagine what would happen if I actually, you know, changed content. This is why I dislike editing anything about U.S. history. Firsfron of Ronchester 14:31, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I think you'll find that if you make the changes and provide an adequate reference to back them up, the changes will stick. If I gave up after every time that somebody reverted one of my legitimate edits, I would have given up on Wikipedia all together a long time ago! Not that I don't still consider giving up on it occasionally.  ;-) But anyway, if you know that you're correct, and you can provide a reference or two, I think you ought to go ahead and make the appropriate changes.

—BMRR 15:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I just looked at your user page and now realize that you're a very prolific and experienced editor, and an admin too. I apologize if it seemed like I was talking down to you in my previous comment.

—BMRR 15:35, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Regarding your comments immediately above, I did not take them as a slight and did not feel as though you were talking down to me. My status as an admin and as a prolific or experienced editor honestly should have little to do with what needs to be corrected in this article. My worry is twofold:

1. Incorrect content in the lead of an article, and
2. Swift reverting of maintenance tags before discussion.

It is clear the statement as written is wrong. Roanoke was the first English settlement in the New World. Jamestown was the first permanent colony. Popham is neither. However, we do not generally include references in the lead of an article, reserving most of those for the body, and the incorrect claim is not made in the body of the article (which is a red flag for me). Moreover, a citation to Roanoke is improper here, as it is not even being discussed in the lead. Either it should be, or a change needs to be made to the sentences some other way. I do not generally edit articles on U.S. history because there tends to be a strong "revert now, ask questions later" mentality among U.S. history editors. The last history stub I wrote was back in 2005. Since that time, my experiences regarding U.S. history editing have been unpleasant, and I don't have time to waste on a hobby I want to enjoy.

My suggestions for alternate wording are (with changes in italics):

"The first European settlement in Maine was in 1604 by a French party. The first English settlement in Maine was established by the Plymouth Company at Popham in 1607, the same year as the settlement at Jamestown, Virginia. Both colonies were predated by the Roanoke Colony by 22 years. Because the Popham colony did not survive the harsh Maine winters and the Roanoke Colony was lost, Jamestown enjoys the distinction of being regarded as America’s first permanent settlement."

I am open to suggestions on wording, and deliberately took the problem to the talk page for rational discussion. It was my hope that a discussion of the problematic sentences would forestall the inevitable knee-jerk reversion of the dubious tag. Since that time, four more edits have been made to the page, but the incorrect "fact" still remains, unmodified, which worries me. Firsfron of Ronchester 16:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for adjusting the text, BMRR. Again, I am open to wording changes if my proposed wording is not acceptable. Because the statement is in the lead of the article, which is supposed to be a summary of the rest of the article, I think the claim to precedence should also be mentioned in the body of the article as well (with references). Firsfron of Ronchester 19:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the new edits are an improvement. I've gone ahead and wikilinked our article on the Popham colony. I do agree with Firsfron that this probably shouldn't be in the intro if it isn't in

On the "official site of the State of Maine", page "Facts & History", information is found that total area of State of Maine is 33,215 square miles. Here in wiki it's 33,414... Furthermore, 33,414 is not equal to 30,890 (land area)+4,527(water area) [information from template US state]. The same problem exists in measures in square kilometers. Why's there this inconsistency? I'm asking this, because I use templates from en.wiki to fill up ones in sr.wiki, and, generally, don't like to have wrong information here :) --Wlodzimierz (talk) 01:24, 21 November 2007 (UTC)