Talk:Nair/Archive 19

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1). There is no evidence for any admixture of European blood in Nairs during during medieval or modern times since it is clearly mentioned in genetic studies that present Indian population have evolved in Pleistocene and early Holocene era and not in historical periods.

2). It is a lie that Nairs served in colonial armies as soldiers. In fact Nairs actively shunned colonial armies and career of a mercenary was viewed as beneath dignity. In many part of Malabar, it was only after independence that an army career was viewed with respect. Before independence, only paupers and bankrupts joined army.

3) I suggest reading Richard Burton's account of Kerala written in 1851 - he clearly state that it was quite difficult to catch glimpse of a Nair woman as they were kept out of sight of outsiders by their men and he also add that if someone tried to molest a Nair woman, her kinsmen would swift to retaliate with knife. ("Goa and Blue Mountains", 1851)

4) Only European power to have decisively defeated Nairs are British. Portuguese, Dutch and French came nowhere near what British attained in closing days of 18th century and early years of 19th century. More important - Portuguese were only a few thousands strong even at height of their power in 16th century. So small a population could in no way have impacted a community like Nairs which even in pre-modern era was several hundreds of thousands strong.

5)Nairs of Walluvanad are in no way special or inferior to rest of Nairs. This is a recent invention that is influenced by the prevalent prejudiced notion of Walluvanad being the land where Malayalam language and culture is found in purest and best form. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.206.3.103 (talk) 11:56, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Sig:Ajayan

I am discounting Burton because of its age, but if you provide some

reliable sources then your points would be considered. Nothing will happen until you do, sorry. - Sitush (talk

) 12:18, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

...................Sorry to say. But high caste Nayars are primarily a military & noble class which is undisputed. If that is case how can you provide a clear picture about Nayars if their military past is not covered properly? This is problem here - coverage on military aspects of medieval Nayar life is scant. Secondly, there is no mention anywhere about militarism of Malabar Nayars and the struggles they waged on Mysore armies and their role in Pazhassi Struggles. Also why so much coverage about caste system? It ought to have been put into a seperate article on Kerala caste system....................ANONYMOUS, March 6, 2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.216.64.197 (talk) 08:08, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

First of all mr. anonymous IP ,What point you are trying to make and what changes do you want to make in this Article??And secondly i have to say that ur Understanding of Medival Nair life is Scant.You may read books written by European travelers who visited malabar in 15th to 17th century like Daurte Barbosa,Pyrad de laval,Alexander hamilton ,Varthema (available in gbooks ).These travelers tell you more about so called 'Nayar militarism' ,how nairs at that time were trained ,Number of Nair army men under each local ruler,military Dress and ammunation of a nair Soldier.As per Travancore State Manual(Nagam Aiya,1901)the description of a medival Nair soldier is :

They were formerly a military caste and were celebrated for their martial virtues .They invariably carried arms with them consisted of swords ,sheilds,bows,arrows,hand grenades etc.According to Mr.Elie reclus(in his ‘primitive folk’ )that “nayars of the ancient type were so many spartan warriors ,so many knights of a court of love.All knew atleast to read and write,but the chief part of their education was carried on in gymnasium or in fencing school, where they learnt to despise fatigue,to be careless of wounds and to show indominatable courage ,often bordering upon foolish temirity.they went into battle almost naked ,threw the javelin with equal address backward and forward,and drew the bow with such skill that their second shaft often split the first.Their extraordinary agility made them the terror of every combat in jungle or forest.On the smallest provocation they devoted themselves into death,and having done so,one would hold his ground against a hundred.Those attached by the prince to his person made it a point of hounor not to survive him”

To qoute another writer:- “the military dress is a pair of short drawers ,and his peculiar weapon is a thin but broad blade,hooked towards the edge like a bil-hook or gardener’s knife ,and length of a roman sword,which the weapon of the chiefs often exactly resembles.this hooked instrument,the inseparable companion of the nair whenever he quits his dwelling on business,for pleasure or for war ,has no scabbard and is ussually grasped by right hand,as an ornamental apendage in peace and for destruction in war.when Nair employs his musquet or bow ,the weapon described ,is fixed in instant by means of a catch in the waist-belt,with a flat part of the blade diogonally across his back,and is disengaged quickly whenever he drops his musquet in wood or slings it across his shoulders for the purpose of rushing to close encounter with his terrible instrument.”

Also your argument that "there is no mention anywhere about the struggles they waged on Mysore armies and their role in Pazhassi Struggles" is Wrong completely.The Main commander of Pazhassi Army was Edachena Kunkan nair,and the others leading army men were Edachena Othenan Nair,Edachena Komappan Nair,Kaitheri Ambu Nambiar,Kannuvath Nambiar,Palloor Eman Nair,Palloor Rayarappan Nair,Chuzhali nambiar,Peruvayal Nambiar and so on.For information about these Brave freedom fighters read മഹാച്ചരിതമാല:പഴശ്ശിരാജ,from D C books or see the movie pazhassi Raja.-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vinuvenu (talk • contribs) 16:16, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

My suggestion is simple - Those who have good knowledge about Nayar military life must prepare and post much better writings on Article Section. At present what is there on Nayar militarism is not rich in detail not does it cover all periods. If someone were to write a detailed chronological essays on the topic, it might be of much value and interest...

I don't think sitush will allow any efforts to improve section 'Military history' in the main article even if someone come up with evidences/sources/references .It would be a good Idea to write a new Article on 'Nair militarism' where we can have all the informations and names included.Also this article could be tagged with the section military history in the Nair(main article).I am looking forward to some really good Wikepedians to help me in that matter.--Vinuvenu (talk) 15:27, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

There are already articles on aspects of what you term "Nair militarism". Almost certainly, I will be proposing one of them for deletion before too long because it is hopelessly sourced. However, my main point here is that (a) Wikipedia does not host "essays" and if you create another article with the intent of somehow getting round a content dispute on this article then you are almost certainly creating a

POV fork. It is not a great idea. Just come up with the sources here, and we can legitimately fork the article if necessary. - Sitush (talk

) 15:35, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I had put a William Logan quote in "Marriage" section in noon but have disappeared. What is wrong with that quote? Citation was given with page number also.(Ajaynambiar11 (talk) 16:43, 6 March 2012 (UTC)).

The reason for removal was given in the edit summary, which you can see more of if you click on the "View history" tab towards top right of the page. I agree with the removing editor. - Sitush (talk) 17:00, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Can somebody do some reserch on the caste system inside Nair community? It is always said that Nairs of Travancore are inferior than those of North. What is the reason for this? Why Panikkars and Pillas of Travancore are lower than Menons and Nambiars of Malabar? May be Tranvancore Nairs are Sudras and Malabar Nairs are Kshatriyas. In Travancore documents Nairs are called Malayala Sudra while Vellala people are called Nanchinad Sudras. But in Malabar no Nairs were ever terms as Sudras. All Nairs are Kshatriyas there. Remember the fact that Malabar had powerful Nair dynasties such as Chirakkal, Zamorins of Calicut, etc. It seems like two castes (Kshatriyas of Malabar & Sudras of Travancore) were mistakenly classified into one caste (Nair). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.246.67.78 (talk) 02:36, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

This is already explained, principally in the section entitled Subdivisions. There is no easy answer. - Sitush (talk) 10:37, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

The Menons & Nambiars of Malabar do not consider themselves as Nairs at all. They usually consider themselves to be a higher caste than Nairs. The reason is that the Pillais and Panickers of Travancore belong to the Padamangalam Nairs who are descendants of Devadasi Tamil castes. The Panicker and Pillai titles are common among inferior castes such as Ezhavas, Veerasaiva, etc. Menons do not have marital relations with these castes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.172.204.176 (talk) 08:23, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Please read

WP:RS. If you feel that you can support your comments above in accordance with those requirements, then feel free to explain in more detail here. - Sitush (talk

) 09:15, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Why cant some get over the fact that Nairs are/were not Kshatriyas? No Nair/Nair King of Kerala (including Malabar) were termed Kshatriya by Brahmins. Kshatriya is an Aryan social class, and Sudra were those outside Aryan ritual circle (those who were not 'twice born' (initiated), didnt study Vedas or put on sacred threads), whom they viewed as lowly and in many places made their slaves. Eventhough the Brahmin population termed Nairs and many other castes/tribes of South India as Sudras and viewed them as lowly, they still held land and power and were far from slaves. The fact is neither denigrating nor worth discussion unless one is keen to look at things from a strictly Brahminical perspective. Legolas95 (talk) 08:05, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you, but it does not prove Nairs were not Sudras. The fact is that, it was only recently some Nairs started to claim a Kshatriya status. If you are aware about the present socio-political scenario in Kerala, there is nothing to wonder. Here, each and every castes started to claim fake lineage, in order to show themselves to be special than others.

Chattambi Swamikal, a sage from Nair community, he uses the term Sudra more than the tern Nair to denote the community. The old name of Nair Service Society was "Nair Bhrithyajana Sangham". Bhrithyajana translates to Servants. Therefore "Nair Bhrithyajana Sangham" means "organisation of Nair servants". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.246.67.78 (talk

) 02:31, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Huh..what an interpretation..Nair Bhruthyajana sangham” means at the service of nairs and not association of Nair servants. Yes Nairs were never considered as ‘Kshathriyas’ by Brahmins (in any part of kerala). This is because they believed that Parasurama (according to them creator of Kerala) had vengeance on kshatriys and had terminated all of them from the earth. So how can they accept someone as kshathriya. One other reason, is that Nairs are not vedic people, anyone who doesn’t learn veda or doesn’t have a sacred thread are termed as ‘Sudra’ by Brahmins. So it is not just the ruling nairs, even Marathas, Reddys, bunts, coorgies, Jats (all are warrior tribes and had dynasties) were treated only as ‘Sudras’. Even Muslims and Christians for that matter would come under this definition. The real servant community was termed as ‘Avarna’ by Kerala Brahmins. Anyway I think 'brahmanical' definitions are totally unwanted in wiki as we are not trying to update any such obselete and inept perceptions on wiki. Vyasan —Preceding undated comment added 06:59, 5 April 2012 (UTC).

Answer to the heading: Travancore Nairs - If you mean that about Travancore Royal Family, you are right - They are not Nairs. They hail from a community called Maravar They begun their domain from Thripapur. Head of that village was called Thrippapur moopan. Then when the Chera rule was spread upto vast majority of Tamilnadu region, Thripapur moopan allied with Chera dynasty and changed the name of village as Venad and king to be known as Venattarachan. This is why they perform Hiranyagarbha for becoming kshatriya (In whole multiple millenia old kerala history this is the only family who wants the sacred thread). ++++ If you want to read about real Nair read below.

Narrating the success stories for achieving status is called business. I have traveled so many places in India. I have experienced how greatfully people treat Nairs, they hardly know about Nambudiris.

So we should not narrate our success stories. It is common and normal that when the children is at teen age they will think they are equal to the veterans and wizards. It does not mean that children are our enemies.

One clan's/society's technological potency is measured by the working devices but not by fantacy novels. Potency in mathematics is measured by the advanced level of formulae they used but not by stories. Ability of judgement is measured by the fame they possess but not by the wealth possessed, and ability of ruling is measured by the feeling of invincibility on the enemy's mind but not by the assumed history.

The fact is that Nair clan is not willing to have the vaidic bourne sacred thread status because of the procedural rituals in Brahmanams belonging to Yajurveda. eg. queen should sleep and ** with the ritualistic horse after Ashwamedha yaaga for finishing the yaaga; and many more are there. Request me I will provide proper reference. Nairs are present in Kerala even before the evolution of the word Kshatriya.

Parashurama is the 6th incarnation of Vishnu. Vaamana is 5th incarnation of Vishnu. Vamana's story is connected with Kerala. Therefore, parashurama is the political fantacy created by the pseudo-brahmin community due to Jelousy. Chattampi Swami is the unbiased personality who proclaimed this truth loudly that Nairs are the owners of land of Kerala and Parashurama is entirely a story which is made for political gain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.186.48.38 (talk) 13:09, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

@Vyasan : Parasurama legend and details are there to claim Brahmin hegemony over the land and deny local tribes and rulers complete authority (authority over Brahmins and their privileges) and to explain why non Kshatriyas are rulers, not the other way, that Sudra status etc is because of Parasurama legend. Nairs were Sudras, not just Brahmans, but Nairs themselves held they were Sudras and it points primarily to a non Vedic heritage and also to the fact they were employed for household chores by Brahmins. Varna status is from a Brahminical perspective, how different castes/tribes are related/interact with them, not all non Vedic groups/tribes were termed Sudras. Legolas95 (talk) 01:47, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

It is a frustrated community's psychology resulted in parasurama's story, nobody can whitewash that as true and meaningful

Please stop this now. Read the information boxes at the top of this page and note that this is not the place for general discussions of the article subject but rather for discussion of improvements to the article. I am half-minded to delete most of the above messages. - Sitush (talk) 08:11, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

I think this article should mention the case of Njeralathu (also spelt Neralattu/Neralathu) Harigovindan, famous sopana sangeetham artist and son of sopana sangeetham maestro

Vyasan — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vyasan (talk • contribs) 07:08, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

The section etymology has only one sentence which actually does not convey anything.

"The word Nair has several possible etymological origins, though most of them have been described as being of unsatisfactory credibility."

What is the use of such a section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karyasthan Raman Nair (talk • contribs) 17:07, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

We used to have several theories listed there, but people complained and complained and complained and complained that they were being "defamed" by these theories; so at some point they were removed. I agree the etymology section is too short to be a standalone section as-is, unless we can restore more of the etymology theories. MatthewVanitas (talk) 18:09, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

It may be that the section can be reinstated now, with the exception of Sadasivan's opinion. It was sourced etc and it seems possible that those who were warring & doing stuff off-wiki have gone away. The best solution might be to find it in the history and post here first. - Sitush (talk) 21:10, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Information about Nairs can be found in the 1931 Census of India - Volume.28, Part.1 from pages 375 to 377. Download the pages from here: Page 1, Page 2, Page3. These links are not for those Christian missionaries who are active in Hindu related topics, but for Hindus who want to know more about their history. 122.177.198.236 (talk) 01:47, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

One of most appropriate reference for Nair Clan. Pprasadnair (talk) 04:30, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Dear Sitush:This is about removal of entire section titled "Information about Nairs from 1931 Census of India." Which has provided with the reason for removal as copyright violation. Please do not take the following as offending you. I think this would be fair to mention the facts about copyright violation on the ground of Cyber laws.

facts about copyright

imageshack.us does not claim protection of the uploaded data hosted on their site. Their terms and conditions prohibit copyright protected data being uploaded. So, copyright violation of the uploaded material on 'imageshack.us' is void.

Census report is an Indian Public Record, according to public records act of India, census report of India can not be protected with commercial copyright law. Also, time period available to the copyrighted material is 60 years. So prima facia the relevant content on the prescribed pages does not attract any provision(from WIPO) regarding copyright violation.

The user has given only links to the pages. 'Imageshack.us' gets agreement with the user that the uploaded material shall be visible to public according to user's setting preferences.

If the subject material does not have the copyright registered with or inherited with, wikipedia can not endorse copyright over the subject material. Pprasadnair (talk) 09:14, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Ah. Does Indian copyright law apply here, or Florida law? Does it apply to works published by a prior administration, ie: the Raj? Furthermore, the tone of the IP's opening message is unacceptable, in my opinion. - Sitush (talk) 09:29, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and this page is for discussion of improvements to the article. It is not the place to dump information at random. - Sitush (talk) 09:30, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm well, these conventions are according to WIPO(World Intellectual Property Organization) best practices - It was mentioned above, may be missed to notice. I 'apologise' if the tone of the sentence raised negative feeling so as to be subjected to acceptance.

The content of the reference is helpful in many parts of body of the article. I shall prepare some suggestions for modification etc. I shall seek your assistance for changing that if it can do better. Pprasadnair (talk) 10:43, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

That's ok. Just be aware, please, that the census data and the Commissioner's reports of the Raj period are often considered to be unreliable by academics. In particular, the goalposts changed so dramatically and the respondents made such varying claims that it is difficult to be certain of anything. Furthermore, the raw data could well constitute a

primary source. - Sitush (talk

) 11:02, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Ah nop, Nevertheless, census data is always considered reliable. Kindly provide reference if any academic institution has denied it previously. In comparison with history research organizations and Government agencies, content of academics/universities are not always considered as holding finest information regarding history. As these accounts are not made by Nairs or made for Nairs, I would like to ask your support and guidance to understand with which reason this can be categorized as a primary source. This reference can exactly be treated as secondary source. Furthermore, the tone of reliability and primary source ----, in my opinion. Pprasadnair (talk) 12:20, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

You mean, aside from the obvious stuff such as

I humbly suggest that this reference from census 1931 can be considered as secondary source for the Nair article. Pprasadnair (talk) 18:56, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments regarding the Risley article, which I hope to get promoted to

Good Article status before much longer. Are you aware that the Commissioners often copied info from the preceding census, thus perpetuating errors made by Risley and even earlier commissioners? Rather in the manner that Edgar Thurston copied stuff, although at least Thurston made some attempt to point out that he was doing so. Furthermore, why would we want to use a 1931 source when we have much more modern ones in use? Please don't drag up the varna issue again: it is done and dusted, using exactly such modern sources. - Sitush (talk

) 20:42, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Dear Sitush, I am not aware that the commissioners often copy the info from preceding census. If it was true, Facts about Nairs’ social status contradicting with Risley and 1931 Census would not have come in to the picture. Thurston’s case is specific and standalone - it is not common and general, also Thurston expressly said that specific contents are taken from the preceding reports. I wish to assume the opposite that they use to avoid copying, but they do copy where it can reasonably be done without trace of ambiguity, specifying that the content is taken from another source. Please excuse me for disagreeing with your opinion. I wish to ask your kind promotion to consider above specified 1931 Census report as one of secondary sources for Nair article. Pprasadnair (talk) 07:50, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

"Lunatic asylum of castes" is roughly what Vivekananda Swami said, along with how it did not follow the pattern of northern India (I've pretty much rewritten the Caste system in Kerala article also!). In fact, it is precisely because it did not follow the pattern that, for example, an article about Malayalam Kshatriyas was redirected to Kshatriya some months ago, after a protracted discussion.

You can see the copying by comparing various census reports. I'll try to drag some examples out of the depths of my memory. Could you let us know which of the points that you refer to in your list above are not already covered in our article and should be covered? Perhaps we will make some progress in that way? - Sitush (talk) 09:25, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Dear sitush, let me point out some improvements which we can consider using the 1931 Census report

1. As you have suggested about Etymology in the previous thread in this page – page no.375 para no.508 gives good reference.

Proposed text: There are two explanations of derivation about the term Nair. One is from the Serpent worship practiced by Nairs which resulted in evolution of the term Nair. Early in the course of evolution – after the cult of Siva and Vishnu arose in ancient Indian territories, several people remained Naga-worshippers without joining these other cults and were, therefore, distinguished from the rest of the population by being called Nagas. From ‘Nagar’ the word ‘Nayar’ supposed to have been derived.

Secondly, it is also accepted to deduce that the term ‘Nayar’ has been derived from the word ‘Nayaka’ which means chief.

2.I hope, we can consider the part of ‘caste system’ in a better way. I propose the following text can be added at the beginning of present section of ‘caste system.’ (page no.376, para no.510)

Proposed text: Nairs observed no internal caste system till the Brahmin migration occurred in Kerala. Bulk of them formed the fighting and protecting class, some of whom became chiefs and Naduvazhis. Some sections of the people were engaged in other occupations also. It is a notable point that long before Aryans migrated southwards, Nairs had travelled far beyond the northern tradition of chathurvarna system and developed a multiplicity of castes.

And, after the sentence ‘they regarded all Nairs as sudras’ it is good to place the sentence from the reference “There is no evidence whatever that till about the beginning of the eighteenth century the term sudra was ever applied to Nair.”

Kindly suggest me how we can include modification in neutral manner if it lacks in any of the proposed text. Pprasadnair (talk) 04:40, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

If the old version of the Etymology section is restored then the census data could be considered, but it would be probably not be necessary because the old version was sourced in any event and it included both of the statements that you make in your proposal. Your second proposal adds nothing to the article, as far as I can see, but makes light of what is a substantially more complex situation for which we have more modern sources. Am I missing something here? - Sitush (talk) 06:19, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Census reports, I am afraid, are not reliable sources for topics under question, etymology, history/origins etc, unless they cite reliable academic sources for their assertions. Legolas95 (talk) 11:28, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

hi Legolas95 - Earlier, Sitush pointed out the questionable credibility of 1931 census report in the light of prejudiced mentality of Risley who has conducted the 1901 census, and henceforth we have discussed so far to reach a consensus. That was a legible reason to question the credibility . At this point, I would like to tell you that unless and until there is a legible and reasonable cause to doubt the credibility; Census reports, Gazette notifications, Legislative enactments, Judicial precedents, enquiry commission reports etc. are considered as authentic sources.

Kindly feel free to share, with what new reason you got upset and afraid about the acceptability of 3 pages of 1931 Census report. Pprasadnair (talk) 05:38, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Dear Pprasadnair, please read the thread below. It explains why this report is not reliable. Thanks. - Karyasthan Raman Nair (talk) 06:04, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

ya, thank you, below explanation made by Raman Nair is not at all an explanation.Pprasadnair (talk) 07:24, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry that you don't like the explanation, but the census is not a reliable source per Wikipedia's policies. The creators of the data do not have a reputation as accurate fact checkers. Furthermore, the information is too old to have relevance to current discussions. Finally, even if we felt the data to be reliable, it's a

primary source, and primary sources are only of very limited use in Wikipedia articles, especially in cases where we have good secondary sources that we can use instead. So, in the case of a census report, they are only reliable for actual census data, and only when we have reason to believe that the census itself was well conducted. I understand that you personally consider them reliable, which is fine, but Wikipedia guidelines do not. Qwyrxian (talk

) 07:35, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi, why you shall say sorry, Raman Nair is not you. I was saying it does not feel like an explanation. I never asked an explanation!! Prior to that I have actually requested to user:Legolas95 mention another reason to question the reliability of the report. Legolas95 may not be able to find another reason. Raman Nair is not happy with the census report so that user may have responded that way below. Kindly provide me a link which can make me sure that WP says census reports produced by any country is not reliable. Creator is a foreign agency; please make me clear that all the foreign agencies and foreign individual shall be considered as not an accurate fact checker for at least Nair article. From the previous discussions which i have witnessed in this article, a period of 300 years was put forward by the user:sitush, so you wish to change the policy to redefine the period of authorship in acceptability. Finally, In WP it is defined that a person or body who is actually involved in the subject matter or in the event is considered as primary source. Here it is not the same case. What you can understand is I thought that this reference can match the WP requirements. What I understood is you are an administrator. Have a nice day dear. Pprasadnair (talk) 08:45, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

@Pprasadnair : I dont understand why you consider an introductory text in a Census report as carrying weight on topics like etymology or origin/history (to which you suggest amendments in the article) which are more a topic of academic research. If you want to use it for the census data I wouldnt object much. Legolas95 (talk) 17:03, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Pprasadnair, you are pathetically resorting an unreliable document which was prepared not by historians or archeologists, but by colonial bureaucrats of British empire, to establish that Nairs are a mixture of Aryan-Dravidian races and were hunters in Jungles. Only the demographical figures are acceptable from this census report. It should not be used as a reference for anthropological or histroical facts, since this is neither a Journal not a history book. - Karyasthan Raman Nair (talk) 18:50, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi Legolas95, thank you for acknowledging my concern;

In etymology section, user:sitush has previously suggested while replying to another user - to restore the previous content excluding Sadasivan's book reference. The concerned sentence from this reference was self-explanatory and was not inclined to any side as to why the term Nayar is derived from Naagar. Please consider the following point also that the Naga point of etymology was not given consideration because of misinterpretation that real serpents have evolved to constitute Nair population - which is entirely false. I was really mentioning this census report shall stand as an authentic reference for the same.

My second humble suggestion was to consider the caste system in the article. I would like to invite your attention to the first sentence ie.

"The Nambudiri Brahmins were at the top of the ritual caste hierarchy and in that system outranked even the kings."

This sentence at the beginning says about the role of Namboodiri class in Kerala as a whole. This is not about Nairs or the caste system of nairs. Here the proposed sentence gives little light on the scene ie.

"Nairs observed no internal caste system till the Brahmin migration occurred in Kerala."

This is not promotional to nairs but it indirectly says Brahmin migration has influenced Nair caste system. My kind opinion is that it is better to remove present first sentence.

Second sentence says,

"Bulk of them formed the fighting and protecting class, some of whom became chiefs and Naduvazhis. Some sections of the people were engaged in other occupations also."

This actually represent all sides of the community. Tell me if this sentence seems inclined certainly we shall remove this.

The third sentence I consider as little important: It says,

"It is a notable point that long before Aryans migrated southwards, Nairs had travelled far beyond the northern tradition of chathurvarna system and developed a multiplicity of castes."

This sentence actually demonstrates that Nair community's social structure is prone to faster development.

I have a request to user:Legolas95 user:Sitush and user:Qwyrxian - In the reference under consideration, there is a sentence claiming that 'there is no evidence that before 18th century (before 1700 AD) the term sudra was ever applied to Nairs.' If this like a sentence requires verification, we need to consider references created before this period. What in my mind is that if we be little flexible on the matter of older reference - it can help Nair article. Pprasadnair (talk) 19:27, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

These were my concerns regarding this census report which are quite eligible to be considered and provides some help towards improvement in the article. Pprasadnair (talk) 19:27, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

ya, Mr.Raman Nair: Definition of the word Demography - The branch of sociology that studies the characteristics of human populations.

Etymology of a clan name is characteristic of human population. Caste system is pure demographic information. May be you shall have little different definition in your mind. Also I would like to say, be selective in using the words if you dont have much effort in selecting. Pprasadnair (talk) 19:41, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Pprasadnair, have you considered the possibility that the article differs in some slight respects from the Census report precisely because it uses more modern, academic sources? Yes, Panikkar is in there & for a very specific reason, but generally the sources are far, far superior to anything that was cobbled up by amateurs in the years up in 1931. That Census report is not going to appear in this article. You will just have to accept that as being the case, if only because there appears to be a consensus here. - Sitush (talk) 20:01, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Dear Sitush, Tell me what do you suggest. I am ok with your conclusion. Pprasadnair (talk) 20:33, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

The above mentioned census report says that Nairs are descendants of Hill tribes whose major occupation was hunting. Since this report is a reliable source, this information can be added to this article. We shall have a section named "Origin" where we can describe about the Kurinji tribal hunters who were the forefathers of todays Nairs. 141.0.8.49 (talk) 18:21, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

There is no agreement that it is a reliable source, as is demonstrated in the very thread to which you refer. There is also no certainty regarding origins, as per the article (which uses more modern sources). Find some modern sources that are reliable and make the Kurinji point and then, yes, it could be worthy of inclusion. - Sitush (talk) 19:02, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

This census report is highly reliable and it is proved in the above section. It is published by the government and have official authenticity even today. There is no particular reason to think this is unreliable. Therefore we can "Assume Good Faith" which is a Wikipedia policy. There are other sources like Sadasivan which put forward the Hill tribe origin. You may doubt the reliability of Sadasivan, but this census report is beyond any suspicion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.212.33.121 (talk) 06:59, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, there have been issues raised regarding Sadasivan. That you know of them makes me think that you have been around the article for a while - have you ever considered registering as a contributor? The above section does not have consensus that the census was reliable: being an official government publication and being reliable are not the same thing. They have a certain stamp, sure, but if more modern sources refute them then we do not simply continue blindly to accept the propaganda, misunderstandings or whatever of a prior age. If we did, then Germany, for example, might still be in thrall to Nazi ideology or India to that of the Raj. - Sitush (talk) 07:18, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps, the document says about the region as hill country, and the group which occupied the hill country dominated Kerala. Nowhere it is said with the term tribe, even in the city areas of Kerala we can find hilly portions, therefore, it is very much clear that the term hill country is about the region and Kurinji is about the entire western ghats. Think how important the Himalayan ranges are to Indian army as a strategic point(nobody use to call Indian army a tribe) - in the same way Western ghats are important for Nairs. Also there are no mention about other population present in the non-hill area of west coast. Also it is said that men were protecting the rich country on those ancient days. So it is clear that Kerala was rich than the other countries around from the ancient time itself. Even if we say tribe, there is nothing wrong in that - because each and every population in the world was a tribe in archaic times, they evolved as a civilized community because they are elder and mature. We can see Nairs are one of the most civilized community in whole India. I do not think even any brahmin community can compete with Nairs in the area of use of technology, involvement in politics world-over, and in administration and Judiciary. But in holding of wealth some other communities also will be there.1.186.48.38 (talk) 08:05, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

This census is totally absurd and can hardly be used as a source. It says the forefathers of Nairs were hunters who live in Jungles. It is not only a blunder but also insulting Nairs. There is no evidence for Nairs once lived in the "hill country" and later moved to the fertile plains. It also calls Nairs an Aryan-Dravidian mixed race. There is no evidence for this too. No evidences connect Nairs with Dravidian ethnicity. Since Nairs are the descendants of ancient Naga people, who were an Aryan race, marital relations with Brahmins would yield no ethnic admixture. All these are just imaginations of British who were in rivalry with Nairs. Their sole aim was just to defame the caste. -Karyasthan Raman Nair (talk) 05:01, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Even if the census were reliable (which I doubt it is, given the above concerns), even if it were, it is a

To raman nair:Nairs are considered as an extremely ancient community, the extensive studies which dealt with ancient communities always included nair community also because Nairs have considerable ancient history. There are no evidence to cite that Nairs have came from somewhere outside. You may please tell me which ancient community have not lived in jungle before 8000-10000 years. I agree with you that Nairs are Nagas(we actually call it as Nakaas). Indeed it can be considered as a separate ethnicity. If you want to annex Nairs to Aryans(who never existed) or scythians, I would like to say they have evolved from Nairs, there is no evidence to prove that the opposite is true. Do you want the world to agree that ancestors of nairs came in a UFO with all technology. There is a way to help your feeling - rather than trying to prove Nairs came with Nambudiris, you can take a new diversion that Nambudiris are the diverted priest class who embrased vaidic culture. There are reliable sources to support that. Chattampi swamikal has done extensive study about that. He also has described this in one part of his book called - i shall tell u later. Once you try that also - think out of the box man. If you consider to brainstorm both the theories, then only you can stand with neutral view. And, about insult - Nobody in the world has insulted Nair class as much the Venad Royal Family did. They captured the rulers of Ananthapuri and handed over to British, they sold the Nair titles to non-nair communities, they have transformed the Anantha and Bhagavathi temple to padmanabhaswami temple, they purposefully defamed the whole Nair community. Do you know how Raja Kesavadas's life ended, he was the person who brained the battle against Tipu Sultan who tasted his first failure from Nairs, Raja Kesavadas ended his life in prison. They were very much afraid of the uprise of Ananathapuri public because they are with the actual rulers and this royal family does not belog to kerala. Under their rule they tried to impose tax for feeding breast milk to babies also. Not only these they have done so much great things to Nairs. So dont feel great about those being a Nair. 14.99.65.245 (talk) 07:07, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

This line of discussion needs to end immediately. Wikipedia talk pages are

not forums to discuss issues--they exist only to improve the article. If you want to debate about the Nairs, their origin, and Indian history, please find another website to do it on. Qwyrxian (talk

) 07:30, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Dear IP, wikipedia is not a place to put your rubbish imaginations and fantasies. This thread is about whether the ancestors of Nairs were Jungle hunters or not. I strongly believe that the Nairs belong to Aryan race who, from the time immemorial, were cowherds and farmers. They leaved in large plains and riverside grass lands , not in Jungles. The fact that ancestors of all human beings were hunters is not at all relevant here. It will be like saying "Nairs evolved from apes". Can you bring any reliable sources to prove your theories? If you can't, then find some forums or create a blog to put these bloody nonsenses. - Karyasthan Raman Nair (talk) 18:34, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Nair hair remover is more well-known than Nair caste. If you search the term "Nair" in google, all the top results are about the product. So "Nair" should lead to the article about the hair removal product. This article about the south indian Hindu caste should be renamed as Nair (Caste). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.212.8.106 (talk) 06:34, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Please read

WP:COMMONNAME and note in particular "When using Google, generally a search of Google Books and News Archive should be defaulted to before a web search, as they concentrate reliable sources". - Sitush (talk

) 06:45, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

If you look authentic history books in google books and other online collections, you can see a more common spelling for this caste is "Nayar". "Nair" most often means the product. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.220.134.162 (talk) 12:52, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

We'll need some data to verify that hypothesis of yours. If Nayar is the more common name in high quality books and newspapers, we should change it. But the hair care product is irrelevant--it's only more common from a US perspective (do they even sell it in other countries?) Qwyrxian (talk) 13:45, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

No matter whether they sell in other countries or not. Even in many other parts of India, people have not heard about this caste. If you ask a Punjabi or a Bengali, he probably would have not heard about this caste. The product is atleast known to all Americans who form a major portion of the English speaking population of the world. Since the caste has an alternative spelling, which is unique to it, it is perfectly apt to move to new spelling and give this title to the product. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.221.26.247 (talk) 10:36, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Please read

WP:COMMONNAME. You are providing no evidence to support your claims & I think that you would struggle to do so because it is a common surname. I wish that there was a GBooks method for excluding authors with a particular communal name such as this, but to the best of my knowledge there is not. I have had to research the Nair caste quite extensively in the English language and the "Nair" spelling always seemed to produce more sources, especially among modern works. Since I did check variant spellings, I suppose that we could roughly test this simply by checking how the cited sources refer to them.

FWIW, I have never heard of this haircare product, except in so far as it appears in the disambig. While it is true that there are many US people, I doubt that they form a majority of the English-speaking population or indeed of the English-speaking retail market. We are supposed to avoid being US-centric (or, indeed, any-other-country-centric). - Sitush (talk

) 10:52, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

First of all I would like to congratulate the editors for all their contributions and for doing a great job in cleaning up this article. The article is a lot cleaner than it was last year when I checked it. I have a few questions though and would appreciate a response. Why has a very credible source been removed from this article completely? I am talking about the encyclopedia britannica reference for nairs, here http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/407129/Nayar. Their entry is a traditional view on who the Nairs of Kerala were, and this article although well written contains POV against Nairs. The evidence of this is, have a look at the ezhava article it talks of both negative and positive aspects of their community, whilst the Nair article paints a mainly negative side by not even talking of a: their martial heritage b: their lineage. Instead it talks about their marriage customs, and acts as if they have no recorded history and their history is murky. Can you find any article on wikipedia about a community which starts off talking about marriage customs? I've looked, I cant find any. Remember the Wikipedia terms of service clearly state that no original research is allowed. Yet this article contains some of that, which would be considered an infringement of wikipedia terms of service. Truth is neither good nor bad, it is multi-layered and contains both good and bad, thus to eschew the good and only talk of the bad or vice versa can never be deemed as factual or truthful. Whoever responds to this message, if you fail to address the main points it will be obvious that I was right about the POV so stay on topic and explain why a very credible source like the britannica article was deleted and lesser known sources were used. Could it be because the britannica article actually said something good about the Nairs? Once again here it is http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/407129/Nayar

It isn't my intention to offend the hard working contributors. I'm just a curious soul who wants answers to the above. For anyone interested, I am not Nair either, I do however believe in fairness and treat other communities and people the way I wish to be treated. Instead of having one rule for one communities article and another rule for another.

Thank you 77.100.152.52 (talk) 21:39, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Yours is a really nice, thought-through comment and I thank you for it. One of the systemic issues with Wikipedia is that it prefers

weight needs to reflect this. - Sitush (talk

) 23:51, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Portuguese army (Parangi Pattalam) had its main barracks at towns such as Kannur, Thalassery, Calicut, Cochin, Quilon, Attingal, etc Nairs in all these areas are fairer than those in other areas. The Menons of Valluvanad are the only Nairs without European admixture. This is why the Valluvanad Nairs (Menons/Mannadiar) consider Travancore Nairs (Pillai) and Malabar Nairs (Nambiar) as inferior castes. Actually genetics reveal that all the human beings now exist in the world are having a root that coming to an African- Negro Mother who lived 15 Lakhs of years before. But even when the genetics reveal that, people avoid to tell the truth. And always see the hurry only to find out somehow a European / any white colored father from somewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BRAHMIN-EZHAVAR (talk • contribs) 20:01, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Nairs historically followed matrilineal system of inheritance (Marumakkathaayam). Since there are only a handful of communities which practiced matrilinal inheritance in modern times and Nairs were particularly known in anthropological circles for the practice, I suggest 'matrilineal inheritance' be specifically included as a subsection under Historical Practices. There might be enough material already in the article, if not we can include more. Legolas95 (talk) 17:19, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Erm, have you read the "Tharavad" section? - Sitush (talk) 19:44, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but what I was saying was to explicitly include Matrilineal inheritance as a subsection under historical practices, as it was one of the more noted aspects of Nair life. Also a joint family system and matrilineal inheritance are two distinct things, one doesnt follow from the other.Legolas95 (talk) 01:31, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I realise what it was that you said, and there is certainly nothing objectionable about changing the existing section heading to read something like "Matrilineal inheritance and tharavadu". However, what additional points do you envisage being made regarding the mode of inheritance? - Sitush (talk) 07:11, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

A legend also narrates that Portuguese general and the king of Cochin once arranged a duel between a Nair and a Portuguese; the Nair's loss in this match led to a new Nair respect for the Portuguese.[18]

If you were to narrate a 'legend' in wikipedia, there are many other legends regarding Nairs which also needs to be mentioned. Apparently adding only this particular legend in which Nair lost to Portugese is exposing the editors intent here. If you are to re-look at history in today's terms, then this legend should be removed immediately.Vyasan —Preceding undated comment added 12:55, 2 May 2012 (UTC).

Are any of the other legends verifiable using reliable sources? I would be interested to read them. - Sitush (talk) 13:11, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

How can a legend be verified..? That throws a bigger question of how reliable these sources are, if it is to include legends. Legends are not facts and if you were to rely on that, this article should be reverted to the version one year back when the article had only legends of glorification. Legends either glorify or defame both needs to be avoided. Also there is no citation for “During this era, the Portuguese popularised the term Nair, referring to all of the locals who fought along with them as Nayari or Nayar, irrespective of strata or caste”. Similarly the second paragraph in Early Period section is scantily cited. The hill tribe origin makes it all the more confusing as generally the Nairs doesn’t have Dravidian physical attributes. There is no explanation made on this aspect which mislead the common readers and go to the extent of thinking Nairs have portugese admixture etc. which is totally rubbish.Vyasan —Preceding undated comment added 06:07, 3 May 2012 (UTC).

Indeed, I sort of thought that I had not explained myself very well! My point was that if the legends are discussed in

reliable sources

then they may have a place in a Wikipedia article. To give a couple of examples:

• the mythology of the
  Lunar Dynasty
  etc is shown in many articles; and
• non-believers in any particular religion that you could name would usually assert that the religious texts of that religion are no more than legend.

I hope that this makes more sense. - Sitush (talk) 09:13, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

A legend, though in a reliable source is unreliable as even in the reliable source it is mentioned as a legend. In this context, of a duel in the medieval history, there is absolutely no need to drag a legend since most of the history during that time are available. Moreover, during those days, Nairs were experts in martial arts like Kalaripayattu and it would have been impossible for Portugese to defeat a Nair in an individual fight. It is just the use of gun that gave them an upper hand and also the presence of Nairs in their own army. Hence, this statement is irrelevant to this article and exposes only the double standards of the editor. Also you are not giving an explanation on the next two points that I have mentioned.Vyasan —Preceding undated comment added 05:27, 4 May 2012 (UTC).

Has it ever crossed your mind that the Portuguese were, relatively speaking, as expert in guns as the Nairs were in Kalaripayattu? Yours is an illogical comparison. Now, if you want to remove discussions of legends that are referenced by reliable sources then I think that you need to take the issue to a higher level than this talk page because, as I have intimated, it would affect a swathe of articles. I really do not think that you would come out on top in such a debate, nor am I sure which would be the most appropriate forum in which to propose it.

As far as your other points are concerned, I am pretty sure that you have been told previously that you need to provide some

reliable sources for your statements. However, if you have not then please consider this to be your notification of that necessity. - Sitush (talk

) 08:32, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Vyasan —Preceding undated comment added 10:52, 4 May 2012 (UTC).

You have not "proven" anything. And this is Wikipedia, so we operate according to the policies of Wikipedia. If you do not like them then your options are either (a) try to get them changed, or (b) go somewhere else and write whatever it is you believe to be correct etc. - Sitush (talk) 13:03, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Is the legend from source Calcutta review Volumes 74-75 (year 1882) notable? I don't think this is notable.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 18:05, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

The legend is referred to elsewhere & I can track that down next week. There was a peak of interest in documenting Indian folklore between around 1860-1890 - see William Crooke, for example - and although I did not add that particular statement, I do not see anything wrong with it. If necessary, it could be modified, ie: something like "According to X, writing in the Calcutta Review in 1882, ..." You need to understand that the real issue here has been let slip by Vyasan, ie: it seems to be perceived as somehow having "negative" (V's word) connatations and, of course, we are not allowed to say anything that is less than puffery for our dear friends from the Nair community. TT, I would encourage you to read the extensive archives before wading in here: it has all been said before. - Sitush (talk) 18:11, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

BTW, the contributor of that information was probably MatthewVanitas, since he did most of the military stuff etc. MV is still around, so perhaps consider bringing him into the discussion? I have no opinion right now regarding whether it is suitable for inclusion other than to say what I already have: it is sourced, it has definitely been mentioned by other people, and the real objection here is not the red herring of its being a legend but the fact that it makes the Nairs look bad. To the latter of which points, my response is, basically, "diddums". - Sitush (talk) 18:18, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree. There are thousands of legends from mythology and folklore finding place in 'reliable sources', plus works like Mahabharata or Ramayana or even Keralolpathi would suffice as 'reliable sources' for their own legends. Further the legend in question does not contribute anything to the narration of the article. I suggest it be removed than make this article a display of random legends. I dont find Sitush's objections valid, religious or mythological articles shall have legends, they are in context, rather the articles are about those legends.Legolas95 (talk) 13:34, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

The inconsequential legend being questioned is removed. Hope nobody has any objections.Legolas95 (talk) 01:38, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

It is clearly not "inconsequential", per the concerns of Vyasan. I've been away for much of the weekend - did anyone enquire of MatthewVanias as I suggested? - Sitush (talk) 06:57, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

It appears that no-one did drop MV a note. I have just done that thing. - Sitush (talk) 07:15, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I am seeing quite a lot of brief mentions regarding this incident and also more generally regarding Nair participation in duels and of suicide squads known as Changatams. The problem for me is that so far I can only see snippet views at GBooks, which is a frustrating issue in the UK. I will keep digging, obviously. - Sitush (talk) 07:54, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Sitush, i am not sure what you are trying to get at from those searches, that it is more than a legend? Does it contribute anything to further the narration of the article? I dont see why it should be there be it a legend or not, we certainly are not recording any random event from ever since that has something to do with a Nair. And as a legend, it certainly shouldnt be there. If you want to hear other editors and contributors on the point, fine, we can discuss it, but such random pointless legends should stay off the article untill its purpose is made clear.Legolas95 (talk) 01:28, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

What the searches can reveal is that it is not an "inconsequential" legend because it is one that is recounted by multiple independent reliable sources. The last four words are our test for

notability. - Sitush (talk

) 09:23, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

If the notability is still not clear, better to remove the legend.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 13:31, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Is there any chance that you could lay off stalking me, TT2011? Especially since when you do intervene your comments are pointless. I have already demonstrated that the notability is clearly there - the legend is mentioned by several sources, and although I do not like snippet views the very fact that it is mentioned, regardless of context, is sufficient to determine that this is not some whimsical fiction created by one reliable source. I will keep digging, obviously, but there is no reason to remove this aside from that of protecting the vanity of the Nair community. - Sitush (talk) 15:13, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

If you have sources then mention the sources. Where have I removed it till now for you to claim some special personal attention? Have I deleted the legend? Present the source with material or the legend goes. Also add the sources at the mentioned legend. I think it is quite normal. Please try avoiding personal accusations. If there is an admin watching this page he needs to stop Sitush for this nonsense and put an information message at Sitush's page.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 16:10, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Duh, it is already sourced. You can GSearch if you want to find more, or you can AGF that I have done that thing. I do not like linking to snippet views and therefore am digging around for better views etc. Try "portuguese nair duel" or some similar search string. - Sitush (talk) 16:20, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

"If you were to narrate a 'legend' in wikipedia, there are many other legends regarding Nairs which also needs to be mentioned. Apparently adding only this particular legend in which Nair lost to Portugese is exposing the editors intent here." We do not know the editor's intent. It is just as well possible that the editor in question knew of or came across

"How can a legend be verified..?...A legend, though in a reliable source is unreliable as even in the reliable source it is mentioned as a legend." Sources that pass the site's

As for the passages that are unsourced or poorly sourced, you can find sources for them, fact tag them, or remove them, or if it is felt that they might be sourced in the future at some point, move them to the talk page. If you feel that the article is biased, then single out the passages that exhibit a

Yes either remove the legend or it or put more sources. For me it looks like fanboy story for the Portuguese in medieval times, who were notorious in India for anti-Hindu iconoclasm, etc. during those times of Imperialism.

Also, does my behavior in this discussion look like I am stalking user:Sitush? I can count 2 messages over a period of perhaps 9 days, if not counted incorrectly and 2 more today.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 16:53, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I think that you may have misunderstood what Nightscream says with your "either remove the legend or it or put more sources". As for your other point, you cannot stalk on one article, but you are following me around quite a few. I suggest that we take this latter contention away from this page - feel free to continue on User talk:Sitush. - Sitush (talk) 17:07, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

No I really did not find the legend notable that is why I asked how notable it was. What I came across was some weird information, some weird duels. About following, I have nothing special to mention. A list of quite a few pages where I am following user:Sitush could be helpful.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 17:43, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Ah, does this mean that the phrase of yours that I quoted referred to Nighscream's "Or are you saying that undue emphasis is given to some point, either by virtue of wording or by its coverage in the article?" - Sitush (talk) 19:12, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I almost just removed the legend...but figured I'd comment here instead. For me, the issue revolves around

WP:UNDUE, unless, of course, that journal article has been itself re-reported in historical analysis. Of course, should we later discover more sources documenting this legend, we can always re-add it. Qwyrxian (talk

) 23:28, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Working off the results of my GSearches, the connection seems to be James Tallboys Wheeler. I have no more faith in him than in, say,

WP:RX etc cannot assist in situations such as this. - Sitush (talk

) 00:16, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Popular legends are still legends. If you are to take popularity, i am sure you can find many more. Your judgement on the vanity of Nairs is not a reason to keep the legend in the article either.

Seems you are bit carried away by the series of vanity driven objections and its true that there have hardly been any constructive suggestions to improve the content or readability of the article than make whirlwind of caste status etc Legolas95 (talk) 00:49, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

"Popular legends are still legends" - no, that is utter rubbish in Wikipedia terms and I have explained this previously. If that were the only objection then I would still be opposing the removal. My agreement is based on source issues. As for being "carried away", my response is also "no" - I am somewhat cynical, but you have highlighted why that would be so. - Sitush (talk) 01:52, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Mind you, we have gained an article ;) - Sitush (talk) 01:54, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

I have just reverted recent contributions that added a bunch of stuff from the pretty hopeless Malabar Manual written by William Logan in the 1880s. The article already contains the opinion of much more modern sources regarding the various subcastes etc, and Logan is known to be unreliable. - Sitush (talk) 14:33, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Please justify your POV that Logan is unreliable. You cannot just make edits based on your POV.

In the section History > Military History > Travancore Units ~ it is said that "The Travancore Nair Infantry was formed in 1704 for the defense of the Maharajah Marthanda Varma." The point is, it was not for the defence of Marthanda Varma. He was born only on 1706 AD and became king in 1729-1730. Formation of Nair Infantry was an outsourced paid service provided by Ettuveetil Pillamar and Madathil Pillamar to the King Rama Varma who was maternal uncle of Marthanda Varma. vekramaditya —Preceding undated comment added 12:08, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps, but we would need a source to support your point. - Sitush (talk) 00:26, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Unsourced claims have no value here. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:29, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I concur with User: Sitush and User: Qwyrxian that such unsourced claims hold no value for the Nair article.

VS — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vettakkorumakansnehi (talk • contribs) 16:02, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I have just reverted some additions concerning the thoughts of

So can I revert your edit? (Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ Μέγας (talk) 12:33, 24 May 2012 (UTC))

No, you should not revert. Instead, you should discuss. Please justify your comment that Menon is "one of the most authentic writers of history in South India". Sure, he was a professor but he had trouble getting some things published, did he not? You also need actually to address my other points, not merely restate them or give a vague "you are incorrect". Plus, can you find other sources to support Menon's view? Are you aware just how contentious this might be? And what real relevance does it have to this article? - Sitush (talk) 13:04, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

• I never said "you are incorrect".
• Everyone who knows anything about historical writings in Kerala knows Mr. Menon. It hardly need any citations. You can read about him in the page A. Sreedhara Menon and there are plenty of authentic external links.
• I can't really understand the phrase "had trouble getting some things published". Please explain.
• Pls explain your "other points", I can try to justify.
• These points have real relevance this article. It shows the original migratory patterns followed by people in the region.
• Yep. I am aware how contentious this might be.
• I don't think a Wikipedia article about a clan in Kerala need more citation than from Mr. Menon.

So can I revert your edit?

Its really disgusting to note that how the editor Mr.Sitush makes comments on one of the most prolific historians of India. How can someone find the works of unaccomplished historians like Cyriac Pullapilly as ‘reliable source’ and question world renowned historians like Sreedhara Menon. Mr.Sitush, please try to understand that Menon is the most authentic historian of Kerala and his works are the basis of all academic studies in Kerala and the world over, ignoring such works only would depict Wikipedia in dim light and diverge the topic from reality.Coming to your argument that, the statements removed from the article has no relevance is totally wrong, as it answers lot of questions like the uniqueness of Nairs from that of other communities in Kerala and remove the confusion caused by your ridiculous ‘hill tribe’ origin theory.

(User:Vyasan) 18:09, 24 May 2012 (UTC))

• So can I revert your edit?(Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ Μέγας (talk) 12:44, 26 May 2012 (UTC)).

As a Professor of history , a Padma Bhushan for Literature and Education , an editor of Journal Of Indian History and Journal of Kerala Studies ( whose books on Kerala social and cultural history of Kerala are referenced by academics), Prof Menon is a “notable academic” . Mr. Sitush has accorded due respect to him in that phrase. If I understand correctly Sitush’s disagreement is not on his credibility as a Kerala historian but the on credibility of one of his claims regarding “migratory patterns involving Dravidians/Proto-Australoids etc”. Human failing among geniuses are not uncommon (including Prof Sreedhara Menon). Filtering putative erroneous theories of this genius historian should not be taken as a personal disrespect but rather as the way towards improvement. I hope Mr. Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ Μέγας will take it in that spirit. VS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.23.130.214 (talk) 15:02, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

To the poster above: I agree for the most part with your post, albeit it contains some cognitive biases. For example you state that " human failing among geniuses are not uncommon " then surely this works both ways and human failing among normal editors can also occur especially in regards to the fact no editor here no matter how eloquent and well versed they may be has anywhere near the level of historical knowledge that Professor Menon had, yet people here selectively choose citations that support their viewpoint and any other credible citations which disprove their agenda is postulated as " not a modern enough source ". This is whimsical in itself because this is not an article on scientific discoveries where modern sources elucidate things in a better way, when it comes to history it is often older references which stay true to the original source of events. Wikipedia clearly states that it is not a place for original research yet this article has several portions which can be deemed as original research which stray away from the conventional view of the Nairs, ie. " hill tribe theory ". This is accepted in the article yet the conventional view from a far more credible author is rejected? Selectively choosing things from eminent historians/professor to suit your agenda is like a student ignoring their chemistry professor and choosing chemicals to their fancy and adding them together, what happens in the end? An erroneous concoction and a giant explosion! This is not to impugn of denigrate any of the editors here because in all sincerity this article is a lot cleaner and better written due to their great efforts, all I am stating is the extent that editors here eschew and reject credible sources whilst using less credible sources is turning into POV whether this is intentional or not, is not my place to decide. This is further clarified in the wording of many statements of this article, for example instead of just writing " The Nairs were classed as a martial race by the British, but were de-listed after rebelling against them with Velu Thampi " Instead of this, the editors have decided to write " The Nair were historically involved in military conflict in the region. Following hostilities between the Nair and the British in 1809, the British limited Nair participation in the British Indian Army " Historically involved in military conflict? For centuries the conventional view of the Nairs = regarded as a warrior clan and the dominant group that guarded Kerala from Invaders, this is validated from a plethora of credible sources and this is turned into " involved into military conflict " whilst original research like " hill tribe theory " has its own entire section haha. By no means am I stating this article should paint a rosy picture of the Nairs, I'm against that, all im saying is it should be a balanced & fair article. There is a world of difference between " involved in military conflict " and what history showed the Nairs to be.

The Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels used what he called " weltanschauungskrieg " German for worldview warfare. He stated in essence you can control public opinion by re-framing events using ONLY sources that back up his agenda and ignoring everything which disproved it. This is exactly what this article does, whether intentional or not. The first section of the Ezhava page has " The Chekavar, a warrior section within the community, were part of the militias of local chieftains and kings. There were also renowned Kalari Payattu experts among them.[5][6] " The Nairs had a higher proportion of kalari experts/warriors than their ezhava brothers & sisters yet nothing is written about that in this article. 77.100.152.52 (talk) 18:47, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the comment above. The whole article is a POV of one person who is hogging the article. People who have complained have seemed to be banned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.230.254.189 (talk) 07:50, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

User: MatthewVanitas has rightly pointed out on 9 April 2012 that the etymology section is too short to be a standalone section as-is, unless we can restore more of the etymology theories. I was also happy to note the optimism of user:Sitush to the above suggestion and of it being “possible that those who were warring & doing stuff off-wiki have gone away”. So here is one possibility:

1. The present citation to “unsatisfactory credibility” of Nair etymologies has been referenced in the article to Pg 38 of “The book of Duarte Barbosa” by M Longworth Dames (Asian educational services). So I examined Page 38 of this citation. On careful scrutiny of page 38, we find in the foot note section of this page “None of these derivations can be accepted satisfactory”. Citation based on the footnote of a M Longworth Dame’s translations of a travalogue may not be the most valid reference available to us to assert that most Nair etymologies are of unsatisfactory credibility !!!. (M Longworth Dames was not an authority on Nayars of Kerala or Dravidian phonetics. He was a civil servant in Punjab commission whose excellent proficiency in Portuguese languages lead to his acclaimed translation of the travel literature of Duarte Barbosa who was a Portuguese scrivener of Cannannore factory in 1516. Also, M Longworth Dame’s erudition of oriental languages was limited to Baluch and Pashtu languages and not to Malayalam or Tamil or Sanskrit)

2. There exists an alternate acclaimed historian and researcher of Nayars whose conclusions on etymology of Nayars is more aunthenticated in peer reviewed publication. He is the oxford educated Kavalam Madhava Panikkar. His publication on Nayars are greatly respected in anthropological circles to this day and his work "Some Aspects of Nayar Life" (The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, 48: 254–293) has been cited 17 times in the present Nair/Nayar article !!. Therefore, I assume, the present editors of the Nair article clearly consider him as an authentic source of reference.

3. KM Panikkar’s published conclusion on Nair etymology after extensive research of Nayars as well as linguistics of Dravidian and Prakistic language (in collaboration with the erudite linguistic/phonetic expert in Dravidian languages Don Z. Wickerma Singhe) was that :

(A) In Pg 290 of "Some Aspects of Nayar Life", Panikkar strongly discredits and dispels the vanity-driven notion that “Nayar” is derived from the Sanskrit word Nayaka, and additionally makes the observation that:

“As such a derivation flatters the national vanity of the community it has been accepted without question”

(B) He then goes on to prove the results of his research by stating in Pg 290  ;

“ It seems unquestionable, on the other hand, the word Nayar is the same as Nagar”

(C) Further in Pg 291 he states:

“The laws of philology also support this view. I am assured by Don de Z. Wickerma Singhe that the change from G to Y (as from Nagar to Nayar) is very commonly met with in Dravidian and Prakistic languages”

(D) Finally on Pg 291 KM Panikkar concludes:

“ The word Nayar, therefore, is , without a shadow of doubt the same as the word Nagar, which means serpent-men”

I am genuinely surprised that this unequivocal conclusion of KM Panikkar on the etymology of “Nayar” (whose same work has been cited 17 times in the article) does not get representation in the etymology section due to our own warring !!!!. If we are able to negotiate through consensus, we still have a chance to improve our etymology section. Alternate suggestions with proper citations are also most welcome.

Reference:

I have provided the link to KM Panickers complete article as PDF below for those of you who may have not have read it and intends to counter check the veracity and authenticity of the above quotes.

http://ia600606.us.archive.org/33/items/SomeAspectsOfNayarLife/SomeAspectsOfNayarLifeCopy.pdf

VS Vettakkorumakansnehi (talk) 10:34, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Not even reading that. See

WP:TLDR. - Sitush (talk

) 10:42, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

From a quick scan and summary, you seem to be saying

• We already cite Panikkar
• Panikkar says Nayar derives from Nagar
• Can we include this, please

Response: yes, we cite him, even though he is quite an old source etc. As per the archives, this is because he was a Nair and it helped to counteract the caste warriors who thought that the stuff on marriage traditions etc was demeaning. On etymology, please see for example this version of the article. It shows that precise etymology but notes some doubts concerning it. This and other stuff was taken out but, yes, could be reinstated. All of it, not just a cherry-picked "most plausible" (ahem). - Sitush (talk) 10:58, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Saw the version...what is your opinion on the reinstatement ? If i understood correctly, you prefer a word by word reinstatement of that version. Am i right ?

VS Vettakkorumakansnehi (talk) 11:12, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I just grabbed a diff and have not counted them, but it is not about which is "more suitable". IIRC, there were more listed at one stage (or the section was longer by some other means) but I might be getting that confused with another article. The really tricky one was Sadasivan, which caused no end of arguments: it would require rephrasing to actually match whatever it is that the guy said. He certainly didn't say what we did, but I cannot rephrase it because I generally fall asleep when reading mythological nonsense, sorry. - Sitush (talk) 11:26, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

If my understanding is right, you and many others users disapprove of Sadasivan. Is it right ? In which case, we could reinstate the version you suggested minus the Sadasivan part to avoid warring ? what do you say ?

VS Vettakkorumakansnehi (talk) 11:31, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't have any particular opinion regarding the guy: he seems to attract vitriol and praise in equal degree. There were various charges about him being a Hindu-hating Buddhist or a Nair-hating Ezhava etc, but they seemed to come from the Hindu Nairs who already had their cards marked here for other reasons. I don't understand this particular bit of Sadasivan but I did find another source that seemed generally to have said the same thing. The problem was (a) members of the Nair community misread what was said in the article and went ape-shit, for a prolonged period that involved many blocks etc; and (b) a couple of uninvolved people reckoned that what was said did not actually match what Sadasivan said & that it therefore needed some tweaking. I cannot recall having any substantive involvement in writing the content of that bullet-point, precisely because mythology just does not do anything for me: it bores me, and when people actually believe it, well, it just proves to me the gullibility of the species. I may have fixed a typo or a grammatical error etc but that is likely to be all. - Sitush (talk) 11:46, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

In case of Sadsivan, he relied heavily on the etymological interpretation of Nair as described to by the scholar Kanippayoor Shankaran Namboothiripad and as well as a 1952 letter of Kampil Ananthan (historian from Ezhava community) to Narayana Panicker. The dog-people issue was based on a Sanskrit equivalent of Naya - “Suna” and Kampil Ananthan used in Sanskrit - suna-eva-vritty (dog like loyalty exhibiting serviles for Nayars) and ratified by Kanippayoor (Pg 331). This along with the dog totem anecdote from Kerala-jaathyachaara Nirnayam was popularised by Sadasivan in his book and that hurt the emotional sentiments of many caste warriors. However, this interpretation is a fringe theory and that is why it should not have been acceptable in the article but the caste warriors warred with emotions and messed up things…this is what I understand from my reading.

To come back to the main topic at hand . Why don’t we then reinstate the version you showed me minus Sadashivan interpretation ? Do u think that could be a viable solution ?

VS Vettakkorumakansnehi (talk) 12:30, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, why would we reinstate something that explicitly says "most of them have been described as of unsatisfactory credibility"? VS, above you're arguing we can't include something described as the most plausible explanation, why are you here arguing to include something that is called by a scholar as likely unplausible? Qwyrxian (talk) 14:24, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Kindly refer Point-1. I have explained it there.

VS Vettakkorumakansnehi (talk) 14:56, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

But as my diff shows, Panikkar and the Padmanabha Menon/Krishna Menon/Visscher trio also discredit the things. I admit that they are still pretty old sources. - Sitush (talk) 15:10, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

User:sitush, you have raised a very valid and genuine question. The answer to your question lies in the careful examination of a simple detail. Carefully analyze the reference in your diff. Krishnat P. Padmanabha Menon; T. K. Krishna Menon; Jacobus Canter Visscher ( History of Kerala: a history of Kerala written in the form of notes on Visscher's letters from Malabar) is a book published by Delhi based Asian educational service and has not gone through an Scientific-peer-review process. Where as K.M Panicker’s conclusion on Nair etymology is published in "Some Aspects of Nayar Life" (The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, 48: 254–293) after going through a Scientific-peer-review process . A scientific peer reviewed research article can be credibily refuted only by another scientifically peer reviewed process. Hence Panicker’s article gets eminence over Visscher’s letters.

VS Vettakkorumakansnehi (talk) 15:41, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I do not appreciate being patronised like this. I am neither stupid nor a child. You keep moving the goalposts here: it would be nice to know what it is that you want the article to say instead of engaging in all this time-wasting chicanery. I for one have more pressing matters to deal with than playing mind-games. So, a short and sweet proposal, please. (Preferably without verbiage such as "eminent", "Oxford-educated", "erudite" etc, - credit us with some sense). - Sitush (talk) 17:26, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

1. Appreciation of a valid point is not equal to patronising

2. Individual choice of words is not equal to chicanery or verbiage

3. Pressing matters – everybody has them

4. Mind games ! - gives the impression of Argumentum ad hominem- I donot know what you are referring to !

Focus of discussion

1. Recommeded to reinstate – KM Panicker’s Nagar conclusion– published in a scientific peer reviewed journal+already widely cited in the article.

2. Not recommended to reinstate– Sadasivan’s (Suna theory) because it is a fringe theory + potentially controversial to many users-so that we can avoid users from warring

3. Not recommended but negotiable – Nayak- the vanity-motivated theory

4. Do we agree on the above ?

5. Which of the above are negotiable and which not for u  ?- so that we can translate it in to a viable solution ?

ahem....I've tried my best to communicate in the way you want :-))

VS Vettakkorumakansnehi (talk) 18:28, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

User VS, peer reviewed doesn't translate as unequivocally accepted by scholars in the field or backed by the publishing house. As Panicker himself points out, 'the generally accepted derivation is from 'Nayaka' meaning leader' (see for eg: Dr Gundert's Malayalam - English dictionary lists all the terms 'Nayan'(lord), 'Nayar', 'Nayanar' (hon. plurals of Nayan), 'Nayma' (lordship) as etymologically related to each other and to Nayaka.), he is just putting forth his position. But I think its reasonable to include both the positions in the etymology section. We dont have to provide one answer to any question, thats not WP policy. I dont know why Sitush is bringing up Sadasivan and dog story again, neither myths nor Sadasivan have been found to hold much credibility for our purposes.Legolas95 (talk) 03:07, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Good to see that more Users are coming forward to participate in the discussion-this gives a better view of what is acceptable/negotiable/unacceptable and helps brainstorm a consensus. I do partially agree with User: Legolas95 on the Gundert-Malayalam dictionary explanation. When we read Panicker, he states that although “he” does not consider that Nayar came from Nayak, this etymological interpretation seems to have been “accepted unquestionably” by the Nayar community itself. This is the reason I have made Pt-3 negotiable. If other users such as you prefer the inclusion of Nayak-theory , I have no objection to it. I am willing to compromise on this.

In net effect, you and I therefore agree on the “content” to be included on the etymology. Only the reasons why X or Y theory may be acceptable to each of us may be different. So I think it is a positive sign. Don’t u think so User: Legolas95 ?

User:Sitush only made a passing remark on Sadasivan evoking extreme opposite reactions from readers ..thats all. I donot think he wants inclusion of Sadasivan either. And I have a good feeling that the reason behind it would be exactly like mine – Sadasivan’s Suna-theory is a fringe theory and hence unacceptable for wiki + avoiding this may also avoid warring of editors.

If you want I can make a skeleton proposal the wordings of the etymology section that I think may be acceptable to both you and User:Sitush. We can then modify this frame to reach neutrality. Is that ok ?

VS

PS: Academically, a scientific-peer-reviewed publication in a journal (as in the case of KM panicker's publication) and simply peer reviewed article represent two different levels of quality. Since that is not relevant presently, I will not go into the details of it.

Vettakkorumakansnehi (talk) 09:48, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Does every edit here have to go through User:Sitush's approval? This is not an attack but he/she seems to be controlling this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.231.155.131 (talk) 08:43, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

What the hell is this. Such a big article full of nonsense ???? It's better to cut short this article into a small one including only those details which don't have any issues from any sides. You don't need to have such a detailed article full of confusion.

182.48.204.96 (talk) 05:54, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree. The article is a complete mess and there is a lot of contradictory information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.230.254.189 (talk) 07:56, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

The article is a mess now and reads like a long collection of comments on whether information is available or not. Also, a lot of cited information that was present earlier has been removed and replaced with hearsay. Some parts of the article contradict other parts (for example a part of the article says that it is not clear if Nairs existed before the arrival of the Portuguese while another part talks about how Nair "vassal" chieftains were witnesses to agreements during the time of the Perumals).

The article is very poorly written and seems like a cleverly-disguised attack on Nairs because it repeatedly makes unsavoury comments about the Nairs. A certain person seems to be hogging this page and not letting others make changes. You can see from the huge number of edits by a single person and the second highest number of edits are only half of his. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.231.155.131 (talk) 08:14, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Why does the article on the Nair community need a generic speculative section on the origin of caste system? Isn't it better being in a separate article? Otherwise the origin should be related to evolution of the Nair caste.

Instead it has become an excuse for adding Swami Vivekananda's comment about the general situation of casteism in Kerala. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.231.155.131 (talk) 08:17, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

This article is not messed up. It is improving. This is not the first time that the anonymous users are adding useless threads and deviating the users from live discussions. It is true that some part of the article are still nonsense/non-relevant, but you should not deviate the attention of users by adding useless threads. Think about the topic under discussion and participate in the discussion. I shall suggest to continue to the previous discussion about etymology, thereafter we can discuss about origin of caste system. Pprasadnair (talk) 09:55, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Those are not discussions but exercises in asking for permission from User:Sitush, who seems to be acting as the judge, jury and executioner along with User:Qwyrxian

Discussions are not useful when the de facto owner of this article User:Sitush refuses to even read half of what is posted here under various excuses. This is a personal issue as much as an issue about the facts under discussion. An article that is turning out to be slander on a whole community is controlled by one anonymous user. Yes, I am anonymous too but I am not acting as an arrogant gatekeeper of this page.

Also, people can discuss anything discussed in the article. There is no rule that one can only discuss topics of interests to page-hijackers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.231.144.44 (talk) 10:50, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

The article is written very poorly. It is scatterbrained with pseudofacts that contradict at times. Also, the article is much worse than it used to be. I will be more than happy to compare the older versions with the current version. It is a mess now.

Also, I don't see Pprasadnair anywhere in the discussion before. I decided to intervene as a reader seeing how horrible the article has become. If wikipedia wants to close off as a shop for a few privileged users then so be it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.231.144.44 (talk) 10:56, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

More on the writing. Who writes an article like this? "....These people lived, and continue to live, in the area which is presently the Indian state of Kerala. Their internal caste behaviours and systems are markedly different between the people in the northern and southern sections of the area, although there is not very much reliable information on those inhabiting the north.[3]"

This is worse than a school-essay. 117.231.144.44 (talk) 11:36, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Also, how markedly different are they? They sure are different to the Nairs themselves but are they different enough for those from outside the community? Even Christians of the same denomination have slightly different rituals across the state of Kerala. Does that mean that such small difference must be highlighted so prominently? But the most interesting part is that such a claim is being made without any real affirmation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.231.144.44 (talk) 11:39, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

The first thing to figure out is which sources are credible and it is unfair to leave it to the judgement of one or two people here.

So Logan is not credible? Neither is Sreedhara Menon? What about KM Panikkar?

Why does the article emphasize on Portuguese sources? Is this a new form of Orientalism, where eastern sources are not credible anymore? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.231.144.44 (talk) 11:09, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

The story is interesting (and something I myself have known from before though it's not a famous one). But why is it being given so much prominence here? It serves no real purpose. If the author wanted to prove that Nairs fought on the side of the Portuguese, just a mention of it and a citation was enough. Why go on discussing a personality when other more important Nair personalities have not been discussed much in the article? The section on the NSS doesn't even mention Mannam.

Antonio Fernandes Chale can have his own page but can someone explain the relevance of the story here? Did he have such a huge impact on the history of the community?

Also, why is this sentence "During this era, the Portuguese popularised the term Nair, referring to all of the locals who fought along with them as Nayari or Nayar, irrespective of strata or caste." still there when a citation is needed at a time when cited issues are not being allowed on to the main article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.231.144.44 (talk) 11:27, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

As a user I am present for more than 5 years in wikipedia. I have made no edits in Nair article, but all the 19 archives I have read through and been seeing all changes in the talk pages and article. So I am aware of every mutilation and integration happening here. You are now representing your opinion with cited sentences in the article - that is what we require for the improvement of the same. All the points you have presented here is valid, I agree. Actually now the Nair article is getting attention from two privileged users, ie. sitush(rollbacker) and qwyxrian(administrator). As per the information available from the archives, both are not belonging Kerala or associated regions. Still they are trying to help to improve the article. I have a humble suggestion to you to register as a user, and please be little more friendly while pointing out problems in the article. Pprasadnair (talk) 14:45, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

They definitely are not improving the article but instead describing a community that is completely in variance with what is understood in Kerala. It's like a completely imaginary community if you read from the beginning till the origin of caste section. They are not even allowing common viewpoints backed by authoritative people to be presented.

Compare this with the Ezhava article and you can see the difference. Here, repeatedly, information is presented in a very bad light concerning the Nair community. Random stories are highlighted as long as they put down the community. Earlier the article had many errors including the claim of Kshatriya status etc. But now, it has become long set of comments collected from a narrow set of authors.

I have lost hope now. It's not just an editor but also an administrator who are trashing this article and perhaps inadvertently slandering a whole community with tall tales simply because they were thrown out by their favourite sources. Any disagreement with their POV is smothered with wikipedian bureaucratese. Apparently, this is prevalent all over wikipedia. At least I learnt something today. Like so many others who dared to disagree with the defacto owners of this article, I too am going to give up.

"VS" is being nice but to no effect. Others have posted in frustration and got banned or left. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.231.186.221 (talk) 17:44, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

1. When it comes to “Human migration and the sociology of race, we begin to enter the realm of science. A survey of Kerala history by Prof Menon was published in 1967 (by Sahitya Pravarthaka Co-operative Society) when anthropological genetics was still premature. Migrations of human races from one part of the world to the other can be accurately understood only when the ongoing Genographic project (international) and The Indian Genome Variation Consortium (national) is complete and the data is compared with DNA from archeological biomaterial that formed the basis of speculative theories (such as in the case of Paleo-mediterranean forming the main element of Nair population of Kerala). Prof Menon’s speculation in his book has been based on the obsolete classification of Indian races by Guha’s classification of 1935. Modern or recent genetic studies (if available) should be the basis of authenticating “migratory patterns involving Dravidians/Proto-Australoids”. The inertia of Mr. Sitush to revert the edit of Mr. Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ Μέγας may be based on this reasoning and may not be because he discredits the credibility of Prof Menon as a historian or is engaging in " weltanschauungskrieg ". We must assume good will of another editor unless otherwise proven.

2. According to a 2009 study (Reich et al. Reconstructing Indian population history. Nature 461, 489-494, 24 September 2009) modern Indian population is composed of two genetically divergent and heterogeneous populations which mixed in ancient times (about 1,200-3,500 BC), known as Ancestral North Indians (ANI) and Ancestral South Indians (ASI). ASI corresponds to the Dravidian-speaking population of southern India, whereas ANI corresponds to the Indo-Aryan-speaking population of northern India. ANI-ASI mixtures have also been reported. Further, the geneticist PP Majumder has recently argued (Current Biology, Volume 20, Issue 4, R184-R187, 23 February 2010) that the findings of Reich et al. (2009) concerning Indo-Aryan expansion into the Indian subcontinent are in remarkable concordance with previous research using mtDNA and Y-DNA. Therefore speculative reasoning of racial-milieu of Nairs of Kerala by Prof Menon in 1967 may not be accurate to capture historical migrations that contributed to the genesis of Nairs, atleast at this stage.

3. A modern editor can (at times) find discrepancies in certain isolated observations/claims of earlier scholars primarily due to novel data available subsequent to the original work or greater data-accessibility that electronic libraries offer today (that was not available for the original author) or due to subsequent anthropological/genetic or archeological reports.

4. How facts are stated in the Nair article in Wikipedia has been/is /should be independent of how Ezhava article editors has deemed it fit to project themselves in their articles. Wikipedia should not be a place for comparative peagentry of communities or races.

5. Although I agree that the present article has scope for several improvements as you stated, we must admit that Mr. Sitush’s effort has cleaned the article of unnecessary POV (for instance kshatriya-peacocking) of earlier editors and warded off a few meatpuppets. However, I do admit that reaching consensus can very often be challenging. One of the major conflicts while editing articles representing community/race/social groups etc arises from inherent differences in self- perception between individual editors about their community/social group. This in turn arises due to difference in opinion about what citation sources are considered credible/or biased by each member-editor or which external articles has influenced the editor’s view. Editing the content of this article may become less-conflict ridden if we first try to reach a consensus on which of our present citations are credible by consensus and then modify the article based on these “agreed-references”.

6. Legends, ballads, folklores, mythology etc are often difficult to ignore in articles of castes or communities as they may be heritage intangibles of the community. However in such cases, it could be explicitly stated whether it is a legend or ballad etc and a primary text should be cited avoiding as much as possible secondary text references. I am not sure what Wikipedia policy is in such situations. Someone who knows Wikipedia policies better than me in this regard, please feel free to educate me.

7. Even in the face of conflict of views between editors or ego-clashes (I admit it can be very difficult for us sometimes), we must avoid personal attacks or belittling of fellow editors as they may be counter productive for the article.

VS

P.S: Of course, I do agree that it works both ways and human failing among normal editors can also occur, we must find a way to work it out.

Firstly, this article has got many disputed citations or no citations whatsoever in many sections. It would be a superfluous argument to point errors of well accepted historians while the article itself is not able to maintain such high quality levels (it is still rated as B). There are many flaws in this article which is hard to comprehend as mere 'incidental'. Any neutral reader who reads this article would get a feeling that this article is biased. For eg. Nairs are most famous for their war history than their marriage system. However, the editor thinks otherwise and appended this on top of the article (and there is absolutely no citation for this paragraph at all)

In the section Portuguese era "During this era, the Portuguese popularized the term Nair, referring to all of the locals who fought along with them as Nayari or Nayar, irrespective of strata or caste" There is no citation for this whatsoever, just an assumption. Almost all the books on this subject clearly states that changing strata/caste was regarded as blasphemous. The caste was considered as GOD given and revoking/changing would amount to nothing but capital punishment.

Most of the citations from Cyriac Pullapilly are based on his assumptions. He is not a well accepted historian who maintains almost the same standards of Sadasivan (who was cited extensively and later removed). His assumptions on the origin of caste and common heritage of Nairs and Ezhavas are totally wrong. Ezhava's occupation, status, inheritance etc were totally different from that of Nairs. It is only certain mercenary clans with similar status that got assimilated into Nairs like thevars,,rajputs, bunts etc. Even they maintained certain customs and were classified

The hill tribe theory confuses the readers to an extent where they start thinking that Nairs have Portuguese admixture (since Nairs are different from the normal dravidian folks). The article fails to give any clarification on this.

Last but not least is the collage with famous faces, this was ruthlessly removed by stating that “these are few good looking faces” while almost all other caste articles have one. Besides, the editor has diligently painted the place with most annoying pictures. Each article may be unique but at least the pattern should be same across, else it amounts to double standards.(User:Vyasan)

I partially understand your concern Mr. Vyasan with regards to the sentence in the Nair article “they may have been at that time a hill tribe who occupied the Western Ghats that bordered the area”.

1. The reference provided for this paragraph in the article is David Murray; Gough, E. Kathleen. Matrilineal Kinship. University of California Press (

I am not reading all of the above, sorry. Much of it seems to be your own research or to be based on sources - such as Sadasivan - that have been rejected both here and at other articles. My eyes glazed over after a while & I suspect that the same would apply to other readers. Feel free to write shorter, more-to-the-point comments, and to take a read of

WP:TLDR. - Sitush (talk

) 12:35, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

I concur w/Sitush--the statements above are a mix of sourced and unsourced claims. Could we, perhaps, take one point at a time (like we did below w/Glough & Murray), investigate that, and then figure out what to do? That seems like the most productive approach. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:30, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I've requested the Ayyar book. It may take up for a week for it to arrive, at which point I will scan and post. JanetteDoe (talk) 16:39, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

That is brilliant, thanks. I was going to ask at

WP:RX but am having a peculiar sort of week both on- and off-wiki. - Sitush (talk

) 00:12, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Here you go. [1] JanetteDoe (talk) 19:48, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Great. Thanks very much for that. - Sitush (talk) 02:01, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Unwarranted comments such as “User:Sitush, who seems to be acting as the judge, jury and executioner along with User:Qwyrxian…” from IP 117.231.144.44 is completely unacceptable and does not confer with