Talk:PFC Ludogorets Razgrad

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According to Bulgarian Wikipedia, the name of this club is Ludogorets 1945, and "Razgrad" is only added as being the location. Can anybody confirm this? 86.41.41.114 (talk) 14:13, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It looks as though we might be heading into an edit-war over whether Ivan Čvorović is Serbian or Bulgarian. I myself have only a passing interest in the club, so I'm not bothered either way, but I think it might be no harm to hold a straw poll here on the talk page to try and decide which he's going to be. Scolaire (talk) 21:41, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think the practice is to list players with the flag of the nation they have represented at a national level. Or probably some solution involving both flags (I don't recall seeing such in other articles though). The most obvious approach would be the one used when listing the likes of Admir Mehmedi, Gelson Fernandes, Blerim Džemaili, etc in the articles of their club teams. As for Cvorovic himself, he is Serbian, but did go on to play for the Bulgarian national team.--Laveol ^T 22:08, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That all sounds reasonable. I think we can agree he should be left as Bulgarian, then. Scolaire (talk) 00:43, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ivan Čvorović 2

We seem to have another edit-war on our hands, only this time it is myself against an IP, trying to implement what was agreed in the previous section. It would be good if ‎95.43.99.224 could justify his/her position here. Input from other editors would also be welcome. Scolaire (talk) 00:05, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, since nobody has responded it appears we have a new consensus that he's Serbian. I'm just going to butt out now. Scolaire (talk) 21:16, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Cvorovic himself, he is Serbian, but did go on to play for the Bulgarian national team." "That all sounds reasonable. I think we can agree he should be left as Bulgarian, then."

Therefore, keep him as Bulgarian (since he played for Bulgaria and that is important for the FIFA rules of eleigibility). I think the same has to be done for the Brazilian players in Ludogorets with Bulgarian passports, some of them would love to play for Bulgaria. See: On 1 July 2014 Júnior Caiçara got Bulgarian passport and become able to play for Bulgaria. He said that he would be happy to represent Bulgaria on the international level.^[1] Noseamuseos (talk) 16:06, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For convenience, a periodically updated list of all appearances and goals can be found below, so we have that information on the go for future reference and page expansion.

Updated list

(as of December 13, 2018, alphabetically)

Appearances:

Top 10

S. Dyakov 69 - C. Moti 69 - Marcelinho 68 - V. Misidjan 51 - Wanderson 49 - V. Stoyanov 41 - Natanael 40 - Y. Minev 37 - C. Keseru 35 - A. Anicet 32

J. Lukoki 31 J. Caicara 28 Cicinho 28 M. Aleksandrov 27 F. Espinho 27 L. Sasha 26 R. Bezjak 25 G. Campanharo 23 I. Plastun 20 D. Abalo 19 H. Zlatinski 19 J. Cafu 18 G. Terziev 18 J. Góralski 17 Renan 16 J. Quixada 16 A. Barthe 13 I. Stoyanov 13 J. Broun 11 J. Paulo 11 J. Świerczok 11 A. Nedyalkov 10 J. Palomino 10 T. Mantyla 9 A. Aleksandrov 7 D. Bakalov 7 R. Forster 7 M. Platini 6 H. Younes 6 B. Angulo 5 Shoko 5 J. Lumu 4 Vitinha 4 A. Prepelita 3 M. Borjan 2 J. Brandao 2 T. Chunchukov 2 E. Gargorov 2 S. Genchev 2 U. Golubovic 2 F. Guela 2 L. Guldan 2 S. Hernandez 2 M. Ivanov 2 M. Mahlangu 2 M. Burgzorg 1 I. Cvorovic 1 S. Kovachev 1 T. Panov 1

Goals:

Marcelinho 14 Wanderson 13 C. Keseru 9 R. Bezjak 8 V. Misidjan 7 D. Abalo 6 J. Lukoki 5 C. Moti 5 J. Świerczok 5 J. Cafu 4

J. Quixada 3 H. Zlatinski 3 A. Anicet 2 G. Campanharo 2 S. Dyakov 2 Natanael 2 I. Stoyanov 2 M. Aleksandrov 1 F. Espinho 1 E. Gargorov 1 T. Mantyla 1 Y. Minev 1 G. Terziev 1

Skycycle (talk) 23:19, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Emis is an independent organisation that provides detailed information regarding private companies. It states that the club was founded in 1945. https://www.emis.com/php/company-profile/BG/PFC_Ludogorets_1945_AD__%D0%9F%D0%A4%D0%9A_%D0%9B%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%86_1945_%D0%90%D0%94__bg_4087688.html

Down below I have provided more sources from a variety of websites. Not a single one states that the club is not a successor of the one founded in 1945. --Seimbru17:53, 7 July 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seimbru (talk • contribs)

What DrMies said --Deepfriedokra (talk) 16:53, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• User:Deepfriedokra, I see I'm not the only fan of Bulgarian football. Thanks! Drmies (talk) 17:00, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Here I provide more information: https://www.emis.com/php/company-profile/BG/PFC_Ludogorets_1945_AD__%D0%9F%D0%A4%D0%9A_%D0%9B%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%86_1945_%D0%90%D0%94__bg_4087688.html

Even the http://bgclubs.eu/teams/Ludogorets1945(Razgrad) that was given as a source by Rebelheartous states that this club was founded in 2001 but later inherits the history and traditions of the club of 1945, when it was bought by Domuschiev. https://int.soccerway.com/teams/bulgaria/fk-razgrad-2000/12387/ https://www.sofascore.com/team/football/ludogorets-razgrad/43840 https://www.transfermarkt.com/pfk-ludogorets-razgrad/startseite/verein/31614 I have not found a single website stating that there are two clubs - 1945 and 2001. I assume that all this information leads to the fact that this club is successor of the club founded in 1945. 17:47, 7 July 2020 (UTC)~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seimbru (talk • contribs)

Additional references from popular sport websites, which other football clubs such as CSKA Sofia use as reference for their history as well: https://www.sportal.bg/statistics_team.php?champ=1&season=868&team=343 Seimbru (talk) 11:39, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What you do, @Seimbru and GodCipherDivine: , is seek discussion and dispute resolution by asking members of the Wikiprojects a page belongs to to help sort things out. I have done that for you. Feel free to join the discussion if you can stick to content and sourcing without attacking each other. --Deepfriedokra (talk)

• I cite the following sources and explain that there is a difference between incorporation date on September 18, 2010 and the date "The club was established in 1945".^[1] Additionally, there had been some discussion about the year 2000/2001. ^[2] Translating the only available source about that: "Razgrad 2000 was founded in 2000. Before the start of 2010/11 football season, the club inheritted the history, symbols, name and traditional records of the city's club Ludogorets 1945." I can further explain this source, which was written by a fellow citizen /football fan who owns this website/, because I live in Razgrad and I am able to provide more detailed information. Ludogorets was established in 1945 after the merging of several rural football clubs from the Ludogorie Region. Ludogorets Razgrad was initially participating in the Third football division of Bulgaria. They promoted to the Second division in 1961. In 1997 the club merged with FC Antibiotic Razgrad and was renamed to FC Antibiotic-Ludogorets but then the club defuncted due to financial problems. It is important to note that the club was not registered as a private company. Meanwhile the citizens of our small town, lead by Alexandar Alexandrov who later became the director of the club, created a youth club named Razgrad 2000. In 2009/2010 the club was purchased by a Bulgarian pharmeceutical entrepreneur - Kiril Domuschiev who incorporated the club by merging all previous Ludogorets' and Razgrad 2000' properties, stadium, team management, players, coaches, symbols and making it a private company. This club is the original successor of the traditions and history of Ludogorets 1945 and right now a Professional Football Club. I know it is hard to understand this for people who haven't lived in a communist country. The real thing is that before 1987 Bulgaria's government owned everything. There weren't any private companies. This means that even if the club was later privately, it was actually established long time ago. It is a common situation here and the same happened with other football clubs. Most recently with CSKA Sofia, which merged with Litex in 2016 but kept the history of the club in 1948.

Other sources: ^{[3] [4] [5] [6] [7]} All sources you could find state that the club was founded in 1945. Even yesterday, they had their 75th Anniversary celebration in front of all the Bulgarian football community. Seimbru (talk) 09:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Chris Calvin: Hey Chris, I'm starting this thread so that we may discuss and reach a mutual agreement as far as some changes you did, which I rolled back for the meantime. My view is that, while mildly interesting, the information about which players from Ludogorets II have ever taken part in the main team's matches is, quite honestly, not useful, nor does it follow the template of how good football club pages look. Quite honestly this isn't me pointing the finger at you, the whole article has that a lot of information which can be segmented away into its own articles and/or removed as superfluous. Can we agree that the information you previously added should be slotted in the main article for Ludogorets II? Please note that it is unclear whether, currently, Dorin Rotariu is part of the A team or the B team, as he is not registered and not mentioned on the website, but there has been no news of him being sold or loaned out. Also, if you happen to know, is there an agreed upon method on how to list players like Pedro and Rai? Both should theoretically be registered with the first team, but have made appearances for both sides, and Pedro mainly plays for the B team at the moment, yet Rai is viewable on the team's website as part of the main team, but Pedro is not - for either side. I would personally prefer to keep him in the A team, but maybe somehow add a footnote that he is ineligible for matches at the moment? All suggestions are appreciated. --Yupyuphello (talk) 04:47, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Yupyuphello:. I agree that some information can be moved to a separate article, like season stats and rivalries. Some European matches info like "All-time European performance" could just be moved to PFC Ludogorets Razgrad in European football. About players, I noted similar subcategories in Spanish, English and Italian football club articles, so this is the reason to try introducing it here. It was added like 3-4 years ago for a few Bulgarian clubs ( the ones that had reserve teams in the second league) and I find it useful. It notes players with first-team experience who are not yet signed for the first team. Ludogorets give playing time to some of their first team players when they are not titulars in the main team (examples are Georgi Terziev, Žan Karničnik, Claude Gonçalves, Denny Gropper, and others), and Rai is the same case. Pedro was listed on their website as a B team player until he was loaned last season. Rotariu was a first-team player, but probably he is looking for a new team to be transferred or loaned. Back on the topic, my point is that players like Umut Habil are somewhat part of the team, but yet they are not first team players and not listed in the players category. Chris Calvin (talk) 17:52, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hey @Chris Calvin, can you give me some examples to how the B team thing is done in the articles you saw it in? I've never actually seen that in practice, so I am curious - if done properly it might be useful, but I think that might only work is there's set rules as far as keeping it up-to-date. I definitely support moving the European stats to the aforementioned article. Possibly season stats and rivalries can me put into their own article too - do you have an example for such articles? I would be interested in any articles you would deem as what you think a football club article should look like. --Yupyuphello (talk) 19:05, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]