Talk:Pillar of Fire International

Orland Albert Wolfram was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 13 July 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Pillar of Fire International. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

Holiness / Charismatic Low‑importance

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This article was nominated for deletion on August 29, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Where did anyone get the information on Pillar of Fire believing in sinless perfection? Their website statement of faith http://www.pillar.org/what_we_believe.shtml shows they do NOT believe in sinless perfection: "This grace does not make believers faultless nor prevent the possibility of their falling into sin." I'll make a change and let someone else change it back if you have verifiable reason to.

I quoted from the creed precisely because I couldn't summarize it. I'm really not familiar w/ Perfectionist theology: is it sorta like being in AA (you can be angelic for a time, but are liable to fall off the wagon)? (And it seems to me that every denomination is entitled to write their own creed, even if credunt quia absurdum est.)

Billbrock 00:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply

]

It was deleted several times for being "POV". But I just cut and paste it from the website. I think people assumed that since it was quoted in the first person, it was my own philosophy, or it I was a member of this religion trying to convert people. So it was deleted over and over. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 15:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have restored the reference to "Christian perfection, or entire sanctification, as a second definite work of grace." All notable

Billbrock 18:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply

]

What website or work did you quote from? Your quote seems to be from Bellview College which also gave a link to the entire "Articles of Faith" for Pillar of Fire. Those articles for the college are a summary of the entire articles of Pillar of Fire. I think if you included those articles it would remove confusion. http://www.belleview-college.org/at/ArticlesOfReligion.pdf I don't know how to copy and paste from the protected pdf file, otherwise I would have included them here. But if you want to include articles (or statement of faith) at all, you should include these from Pillar. Otherwise you should leave out the summary, which is for the college, not Pillar. This document would also end any arguments or controversy about Christian Perfection vs. Sinless Perfection. JQuiring 21:12, 21 September 2006

here is the last stable version: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pillar_of_Fire_Church&oldid=63154355

They certainly seem interesting and all, but I don't get the extreme presence this church has on Wikipedia, with their own category, a separate category for their three radio stations, and many articles that seem written in a promotional POV. wikipediatrix 15:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Some one took an interest. That’s how these articles get written. Wikipedia looks forward to covering everything this completely. 2A00:23C3:E284:900:15E7:7985:C625:63BB (talk) 10:41, 15 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your strategy seems to be to delete the references to the New York Times articles then claim that there are no references in the article and therefore it needs to be deleted. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 14:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Three obituaries in the NYT about three Church employees are not references, nor did your edit present them as such. The text in the article does not use them as citations to back up any of its information. It seems like an extremely desperate way to say "hey, look, we were mentioned in the New York Times!" even though they were mere obituaries, and not actual articles about the Church itself, which is the subject of the article. These obits would be valid for articles about the persons themselves. wikipediatrix 14:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The NYT articles validate the dates in the timeline which you said had no references. Your using very weak cicular logic to try and make your point.

Not going to argue with you. The way it's done in your edit does not follow Wikipedia style guidelines. If the NYT articles are supposed to be sourcing specific dates on the timeline (which wasn't at all evident - are we supposed to be psychic?), then provide specific source citations within the timeline that properly link to a properly formatted set of references. If you don't know to do that, use the

John Mark Karr article as your example. Note how specific statements have citations that lead to the "Notes" section at the bottom. However, without providing links to the actual text of the articles, these NYT sources aren't really sourcing anything except on your say-so. wikipediatrix 15:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply

]

I dont think you need to be a psychic to figure out that the 1984 reference in the timeline goes with the 1984 reference in the New York Times. I think again you are just arguing for the sake of a good argument. I think its called trolling.

Please sign your posts with four tildes. Nope, I'm just following Wikipedia policy and guidelines. Feel free to complain to a higher power if you think I am in error. wikipediatrix 16:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Note: wikipediatrix was banned from Wikipedia.

I posted the following paragraph relating to the UK mission in the article, which Richard Norton deleted:

The Pillar of Fire Church in London was established 1904, by Alma White when she was accompanied by her two sons to conduct gospel meetings in

If you are working to have the article retained, you cannot pick or choose which factual information to include in it just because it makes your church look ugly and, well, un-churchlike. The paragraph I inserted was completely factual and supported by a reference link from a very reliable source. Please do not remove it unless there is a good reason. The only reason I see is that it does not belong to your organisation as it claims it does, or if it can be refuted. If it is part of the church, I'm afraid it is fair game. If not, or if you wish to refute any of it, please supply appropriate proof. Ohconfucius 13:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, I am not disputing it at all, I am not a church member or religous at all, my interest is purely geographical. My apologies. Your info must have been inserted during the time when I was reverting the deletion of the New York Times references and your additions were accidently deleted, I should have been more careful. I usually don't like reverting, but I couldn't find the references from the New York Times. Do you accept my apology? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 14:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like my apology was not accepted, so I retract it. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 14:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

May I ask why each of this church's international Missions are given their own detailed section, and made to look bigger and more important than they are?

Take a look at the source link for the Pillar of Fire's India Mission, for example: [1]. This is clearly a

"Church" should be understood in the widest sense, as an organization of believers. It is not a building. Many churches start by meeting in houses."

Missions are no big deal. Lots of churches, large and tiny, do them. My parents' church has missions all over the country but when you actually go to the address, it's just some guy's apartment and regular services aren't even held. It sounds impressive on paper (and in a Wikipedia article), of course, that's show biz. But Missions are only a big deal to those who seek to make them sound like a big deal.

Given this, I will reduce the undue weight that the current writing style of the article places on these missions. wikipediatrix 14:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The mile-long timeline here is quite gratuitous, and there's little precedent for such timelines for Churches such as this. User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) restored it with no explanation. Given that unsourced material may be removed from any article at any time, I'd love to hear why this editor is so adamant that it stay in its current unsourced and bloated form. wikipediatrix 15:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I found it useful when I was researching the Klan, and there are many such timelines in wiki. Sourcing should be added, of course. I would ask you to explain further, but you seem to be banned. 2A00:23C3:E284:900:15E7:7985:C625:63BB (talk) 10:45, 15 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can anyone explain why the list of alleged (unclickable) items in the "Selected coverage in the New York Times and Time" is now approaching the length of the article itself? What possible purpose does this list serve, except perhaps to puff up the article? I can find no other article about a comparable church that goes to such overzealous lengths to prove, well, whatever it is that this list is supposed to prove. My earlier queries about this have largely gone unanswered. wikipediatrix 15:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You complained there were no references after you deleted the exisitng references, now you are complaining that there are too many references. It seems you are never satisfied. You are just trolling for attention and disruption. Couldn't your time be put to better use doing useful research for Wikipedia instead of just complaining? Other complaints were that the New York Times is a local paper covering a local church. Now I am adding references from other sources, as are others. The work is being done to quell your complaints, remember there is a vote for deletion which you supported. Its now our job to add as much relevant material as possible to the article and expand it even further. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 15:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let me be more specific, then: when I said "references" I meant clickable ones, verifiable ones, and ones that were specifically attached to specific claims in the article via ref tags. wikipediatrix 15:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the references need to be verifiable. Shazbot85^Talk 15:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The New York Times is verifiable. I am almost 100% certain that the New York Times really exists, I see it once in a while on a park bench. If you want ways to waste your time, why don't you use Google to find contradicting facts and use that to challange the facts presented. That would be something useful. I could use a good fact checker working for me. Its very hard to find a diligent, resourceful and intelligent fact checker. I get the feeling you haven't even done a Google search on the topic and read what you found. If I remember earlier you could not find the connection between the school and the church, despite it being the very first link that Google gave. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 16:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You're completely missing the point. A good article shouldn't have to expect its readers to do further research on Google. It needs more references that are clickable ones, verifiable ones, and ones specifically attached to specific claims in the article via ref tags. wikipediatrix 18:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am completely baffled as to the issue with references to the New York Times, when I have seen complaints that the Church is non-notable; that it's not referenced anywhere; that the references in the New York Times because they're only obituaries. I used a tool called

extremely poor faith (in every sense of the word) and an entirely offensive allegation. There is absolutely no requirement that sources be "clickable" to make them verifiable. Every New York Times reference has been viewed, read in its entirety, verified, and the title of the article, date and page were provided. Every issue that has been raised has been responded to. It's amazing what some people will do when they have decided that an article must be deleted, regardless of the ample, verifiable facts provided, as requested. Alansohn 19:28, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply

]

References do, of course, have to be verifiable, but surely anything ever published in the

WP:REF does not require that references be clickable, merely verifiable. RossPatterson 02:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply

]

As I recall, the school affiliated itself with a completely different church on its' information page. Shazbot85^Talk 18:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You wrote: "The school never makes the claim of affiliation with the church". You do seem to love going around in circles, so here is the same information for the second time. I will save it in my cut and paste buffer for when you ask for it for the the third time:

Our school partners with a local church, Coastside Community Church. We are a dual ministry -- a church and a school -- with collaborative leadership, complimentary functions, and shared facilities. Our vision is for harmonious growth of church and school with each ministry strengthening and helping the other. Our school and church belong to a group of national and international ministries founded and directed by the Pillar of Fire, International. The Pillar of Fire provides us with oversight, advice, and material support, and gives us opportunities to participate in congregational, educational, media, and missions ministries around the world. The Pillar of Fire is an evangelical Christian organization that emphasizes personal faith in Jesus Christ and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit that results in lives devoted to Christian purity and service. The name for the organization is based in the biblical account of God leading his people with a pillar of cloud during the day and a pillar of fire by night (Exodus 13:21-22). We believe that God continues to lead His people through all life's circumstances. The Pillar of Fire is headquartered in Zarephath, New Jersey. It has six congregations in the United States, five Christian schools, an accredited Christian college, three radio stations, various publications, and missions/partner ministries overseas in England, India, Malawi, Liberia, Nigeria, and Costa Rica.

Right. So what's up with this "Coastside Community Church" stuff? This is a church that belongs to another church? And if Coastside is the subsidiary to Pillar of Fire, where does the school figure into this? wikipediatrix 18:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it does, I think he reads things however he wants to. Shazbot85^Talk 18:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pillar of Fire does not consider itself to be a church; they consider themselves to be a denomination. There are several churches around the world that do not use the Pillar of Fire name, but are affiliated with the Pillar of Fire denomination. To answer your question, Coastside Community Church and Alma Heights Christian Academy are both affiliated with the denomination. Included in that denomination are churches in England, India, Malawi, Liberia, Nigeria, and Costa Rica, and six in the United States. Also part of the denomination are privates schools in Los Angeles, CA; Pacifica, CA; Zarephath, NJ; Westminster, CO; and Cincinnati, OH. Maybe this should be started as a new section, but this should be written into the article. The article makes it seem like Pillar of Fire is only a single church with external missions when in reality it is a denomination with many independent churches and schools.

-- jquiring 22:45, 25 September 2006 (PST)

How come the header to the article becomes dodgy every few edits. The christianity template now causes a big space in the article. Can anyone fix it? And just a reminder, please dont feed the trolls. It just encourages them more. Its for their own health.

This is a post that Alansohn made to my talk page [2]. Since it contains personal attacks and insults, I've removed it and am transplanting it here where it really belongs anyway:

I am completely baffled as to the issue with references to the New York Times, when I have seen complaints that the Church is non-notable; that it's not referenced anywhere; that the references in the New York Times because they're only obituaries. I used a tool called

extremely poor faith (in every sense of the word) and an entirely offensive allegation. There is absolutely no requirement that sources be "clickable" to make them verifiable. Every New York Times reference has been viewed, read in its entirety, verified, and the title of the article, date and page were provided. Every issue that has been raised has been responded to. It's amazing what some people will do when they have decided that an article must be deleted, regardless of the ample, verifiable facts provided, as requested. Alansohn 19:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply

]

You know, if you spent less time making sinister accusations about the motives of other editors, more progress might be made. Sorry you think this is all "an excuse to debase the quality of the article", blah blah blah, "extreme narrowmindedness", blah blah, "amazing what some people will do when they have decided that an article must be deleted", yeah yeah, you've got it all figured out. And after such statements, you even have the nerve to accuse anyone else of bad faith! Take a deep breath and come back and try again, only be nice. wikipediatrix 19:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am responding to your claim of a "list of alleged (unclickable) items". How is "alleged" a demonstration of good faith? I've done plenty of work to improve this article and address the many real quality control issues that existed with the article as it stood before the AfD. How is your claim-of-the-hour regarding New York Times references (that there are too few; that the references in the New York Times because they're only obituaries; they don't qualify because the church is too local; that you can't click on them; that there are too many) a demonstration of good faith? If it fails to meet genuine Wikipedia notability, POV, style guidelines (not ones you're concocting, e.g., unclickable references), please let us know in clear detail so that we can stop this process once and for all and allow other articles to get the attention they deserve. Alansohn 20:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I never said unclickable references violated style guidelines. I simply said it would be helpful if some were provided. If it seems like my complaints have changed often, it's because this article's content has changed often - that's so obvious I shouldn't even have to explain it. When I said there were too few references, there were only three. When I said they were only obituaries, that's because, at the time, they were. When I said there were too many, that's because by then the list had bloated into its present state and still conveys very little useful information to the reader. wikipediatrix 20:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad that you're satisfied that the articles provided demonstrate notability, even if they're non-clickable. Are there any remaining concerns regarding notability, or can the article stand as it is, as far as you're concerned? Alansohn 20:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There you go again. I never said the articles provided demonstrate notability. I simply said it doesn't violate style guidelines to include them. Meanwhile, you could address my "Timeline" section earlier on this page. wikipediatrix 20:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your delete vote stated "per nom, fails to establish notability". So is there an issue regarding notability from your perspective; yes or no? If yes, state the issue so that it can be addressed. If not, please consider changing your vote. The timeline has been partially updated; more sources will be provided for each point on the timeline. Alansohn 22:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 19:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The size of the article has now doubled! --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 01:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Where would it be if I hadn't put it up for deletion?! Hehe. Shazbot85^Talk 03:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried to rewrite the theology section in neutral fashion. The long sentence is less than ideal, but I believe it's an improvement over citing the PFC's credo. Encyclopedias have styles.

Of course (it ironically occurs to me post-facto), my summary of the POF creed is unsourced.

Billbrock 16:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply

]

I think it looks great, much more encyclopedic. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 17:16, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks; we atheists are always happy to summarize any denomination's theology!

Agreed. This version is a vast improvement over merely cut-and-pasting their tenets point by point. wikipediatrix 00:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What is the point of this section? It is overly bloated and is not a source for the article from what I can see. Is there any real purpose in listing 20 or so articles written about a subject? 5 would establish notability... The fact that the links, and further reading section is nearly as long as the article is fairly daft. That section should be culled down to something more reasonable and expansion to this article should take the form of actual article text.--Isotope23 15:03, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What does this mean? "was condemned by later leaders with full forgiveness requested." Were they requesting to be forgiven, or were they forgiving those that called them holy rollers. I am going to remove it because as written it looks like the information is coming from one of the references I added on holy rollers, and it clearly did not. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 08:01, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In reading the article, nearly half of it was dedicated to the 6 year period in which the POF aligned with the KKK. I am going to attempt to provide external reference and source material for the 40-50 years that are unrepresented from 1960s to present. The KKK link, while interesting and historical, really is providing a skewed focus to this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dderitter (talk • contribs) 05:08, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When I search for "Pillar of Fire" on the Wikipedia site, the resulting description is "a religious community in Zarephath, New Jersey". Sorry, I'm new, I don't know how to change this. Pillar of Fire certainly has a campus at Zarephath, NJ, and it had been a community, but this description no longer applies to the organization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dderitter (talk • contribs) 17:35, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think the original language was much better. But rather than just reverting I decided to make a point about NPOV editing. The quote "However there is no room in our hearts for racial prejudice." is inapropriate without mention of the volumes of published material to the contrary. It's a little like singularly quoting Nixon saying "I am not a crook." Buz lightning (talk) 20:09, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Buz. I understand about NPOV. I rather consider the section NPOV. Concepts such as a "partnership with the KKK" are wholly unsupportable, as far as I have read. I am drawing from The Good Citizen, "Story of My Life", "Heroes of the Fiery Cross", etc. To have so many published works, some including letters and introductions from the Klan, and yet to exclude mention of a partnership is quite remarkable. Rather, I think that both groups had what they stated- a mutual admiration. If there is support of a partnership, by all means let it be included and cited. Until then I think it appropriate to leave out suppositions. I do not want to whitewash this in any way, but do wish it to be accurate.

I assume the above is from Dderitter (please sign your posts by adding 4 tildes at the end). I hear your perspective on NPOV. In choosing the word partnership I was paraphrasing scholar Kristen Kandt's peer reviewed article where she use the language "public alliance." Please see the quote in the reference list. I'm happy to change the language from partnership to alliance. In reviewing all of the schoolars (Blee, Neal, Stanley, Kandt) that I can find who have published in peer reviewed journals about White's relationship with the Klan, their articles are consistent with the term partnership. I'd have to go back and review them to find the specific language, but I bet if I did I'd find the word partnership used in some. But I'd rather not take the time to do that work at the moment, so I'm happy to use the word alliance since I can and have supported that word. I'm happy to send you a copy of the full Kandt article if you send me an email address. I have my own personal perspective (which is actually somewhat compassionate) on why White was so supportive of the Klan and many of their intolerant ideologies, which some day I suppose I should publish, but I recognize Wikipedia is not the place for that. Buz lightning (talk) 15:25, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On further reflection, I can live without the words partnership or alliance, even thought I believe the references warrants their use. I think the text of the article, as is, sufficiently makes the case of a partnership/alliance without actually using the word(s). Buz lightning (talk) 15:34, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Buz, I would be happy to read anything you send: I devour this subject and time period. :-) I feel like there is so much more to be told and said on the subject, but not within the context of an summary article. Feel free to email me at dderitter AT msn.com. Aside from that, let me apologize for being a newbie to Wikipedia: I truly do want to make the article even better. 68.192.152.138 (talk) 22:46, 17 March 2010 (UTC)dderitter[reply]

Hi everyone,

I see that this article is part of Category:Christian fundamentalism. Are there any references that say it is a fundamentalist church?

--Kevinkor2 (talk) 12:18, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the category.

The body of the article does not mention it.

One title of one reference mentions it in passing.

--Kevinkor2 (talk) 02:27, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I removed two sentences from the final paragraph. The first sentence ("Even today in 2010, the organization's largest K-12 school openly descriminates against ("screens") prospective students based on the student's or their parents' religious beliefs.") is placed out of context since a Christian school by its very definition is going to be selective in what faith they allow in. This is desired by the parents sending their children there, perfectly legal (any laws dealing with religious prejudice contain explicit exemptions for religious charities/schools/non-profits/etc. to restrict membership to only those of their faith), and a common practice that isn't considered any form of religious intolerance normally. While it may be arguable that this specific instance could be a continuation of previous prejudice any conjecture along those lines would be the opinion of the authors adding it to the article and not obvious from that source.

The second sentence ("The Pillar of Fire has yet to specifically acknowledge its role in promoting the ideologies of intolerance which drove it to work with the Klan.") was removed because the preceding two paragraphs are quotes explicitly proving it wrong saying that they acknowledge their "significant association with the KKK" and "regret mistakes and bad judgement by previous generations or anyone in our membership of the past". Any further elaboration on this point (such as "They should have done more!") is the writer's opinion and therefore should not appear in the article per

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User:Jacona, with this edit, you have added unsourced information into the article, including your outstanding claim that "the group established segregated schools into the late 20th century and were staunch racists". For information like this, you must support your additions with a

With that being said, I have instated a

compromise here, in which I have changed the "1920s and 1930s" to "same century". I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 15:26, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

It seems you are making some personal attacks on me. Please

WP:NOTCENSORED. Jacona (talk) 16:57, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

I disagree with your assertion that

WP:POV to label it as "racist" or portray it as continuing to hold those beliefs. --1990'sguy (talk) 17:39, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

They are attempting to remove any mention of segregation after the 1930s, which clearly did not happen until much later. They're also attempting to do it furtively, at least they did so in [this] edit. (I really don't mind that edit at all, but the misleading edit caption, coupled with their removal of content here raises eyebrows.)Jacona (talk) 18:30, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see that User:Anupam removed any material, but rather, he added new material that is useful. It seems you are reading too much into an edit summary. The new description in the DAB page is superior because the organization no longer promotes racism and isn't a top-defining feature. --1990'sguy (talk) 02:12, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]