Talk:Revan/Archive 3

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Almost every sentence in this section is speculation. Can it be agreed that it is unencyclopedic and can be removed? Or does any of the theories have merit with a reference to a reputable source? Yincrash 08:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree, some theories are pretty far from the character, specially raven. However, I say we should keep the revanchism reference, cause it is the most related to Revan's determination to fight the mandalorians. This term also appeared in Flashpoint Interlude: Homecoming of the Knight of the Old Republic comic series. - Neodammerung 00:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

This is also speculation, but the name Revan could derive from the English "to reave," which means to tear, to rip, to cut up, etc. This derivation offers a more sinister connotation than the "revanchism" suggestion, which I appears more in keeping with the overall story told of Revan. But it ought to be considered. Furthermore, the past participle of "to reave" is "

21:17, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Another take: Although it is spelled differently, I think a more likely origin for the name 'Revan' is from 'revenant', someone returned from the dead (in the ghostly or undead sense). Revan's return from the grave is metaphorical rather than literal, but his name is probably a clue to his hidden identity.

Correct sources

I just noticed that the cited source for Revan's canon gender has no information regarding that...actually, it seems to only establish that in a future book Mon Calamari will be in the Outer Rim. That's hardly a good citation of sources. Please find the correct source for the statement, especially given the edit wars going on over even allowing a small section on the alternative female Revan to even exist on the page (which boggles my mind considering that no one has a problem with noting the non-canon Dark Side alternative.) 71.110.132.145 15:42, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

The hostility towards the female Revan section is confusing to me, too. I have no problem with it being mentioned as an alternative, as long as it isn't being touted as his canonical gender. I'll see what I can do about pulling up another source for a male Revan. EVula 16:24, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

The source used in saying that one of the designers always thought of Revan as a female does not actually contain that information. If someone can find information saying that some of the design team actually pictured a female Revan it would be nice to have it included, but until then I think it should be removed, if you agree please remove it. 71.225.125.176 20:36, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay here is the direct quote from David Gaider, the point of him visualizing Revan as female is to specifically avoid describing the charact in masculine terms: "The Revan twist was like that right from the beginning of development... so we always knew that Revan could be either male or female. So, no, I didn't specifically think of her/him as female, myself, though I can't speak for the other writers. . . I will admit, however, that whenever I am writing in reference to the PC (who is Revan) I tend to visualize the PC as female on purpose. It's a little trick that I find helps prevent me from referring to the PC in a masculine manner (which is much more noticeable than the opposite)." Here is the link http://swforums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html?topic=275277&forum=89&highlight= Again basically his view is that that Revan can go either or. There is a point on the fanforce.net where Dan Wallace also comments as to Revan's gender. I'll try to post the quote with the link in the discussion section. StarShadow 07:13 November 12, 2006 (PST)

I'm continously amazed how people feel threatened to the point where they will delete a truthful paraphrasing from a relevant source simply because it does not conform to their view of reality. Case and point: there was a topic in wookiepedia regarding the context in which Bane used the gendered pronoun to refer to Revan as a "he/him." It was agreed by consensus that in using that pronoun, Bane was referring to the avatar. Since Bane's only encounter of Revan was through the holocron avatar, the use of the gendered pronoun is the default standard english/Basic assumption of "he" as a universal pronoun. The holocron avatar gave no indication whatsoever of Revan's gender. Further indication of this convention is characterised in Bane's ultimate decision to train a female apprentice which is indicative that Bane, unlike many of the editors who have edited this page, does not exclusively associtate the title "Darth" with any specific gender. Drew Karpyshyn deliberately wrote it that way, deleting the reference to his work does not help the cause of those who argue the male Revan dogma--it simply means they feel threatened by the possibility of a genderless portayal that they did not even trouble themselves to read carefully. Reread and double-check relevant sources that have been cited before deleting material other people put time and effort to write in. The underlying problem in this article is that far too many people think of the "he" pronoun in the exclusive antiquated sense rather than a standard semantic convention when the gender of a person is unknown. StarShadow 05:57 November 20, 2006 (PST)

Regarding Karyshyn's book: The only moment in the book where Bane encounters Revan is when he sees an avatar(from pages 225-229 and pages 235 to 237) where Revan's avatar is shown and specifically quoted without any gender-indicating pronoun. Later on, Bane decides to think of Revan as "he" and uses the pronoun, but Bane never sees what or who is behind the mask. All we have is the direct protrayal of the avatar without any indication to gender, and then Bane's assumption. If Drew Karpyshyn wanted to portray Revan as male he wouldn't have gone through the entire trouble of avoiding the use of the male prounoun in the pages where Bane is listening intently, some indication would have been given. The omniscient point of view can be deceptive for readers who can't distinguish the third person narrative that will occasionally take on the thoughts of the character that it is referring to. Matthew Stover uses a similar technique to shift the voice of the 3rd person narrative in ROTS allowing for the reader to read the thoughts and feelings of each character: sometimes shifting from Padme's character to Anakins, sometimes to Obi Wan, sometimes to Palpatine. Padme believed her husband was not killing younglings, that doesn't make it that Matthew Stover said that Anakin didn't kill younglings does it? What you have in the book is Bane's opinion/assumption of a genderless avatar. Going beyond the words and saying what Karpyshyn wanted to say is a huge assumption, especially since portraying Revan as blantantly male would have been much easier to write. StarShadow 05:57 November 22, 2006 (PST)

I'm almost certain it says (In Path of Destruction) that the little avatar of Darth Revan drew up its hood, hiding it's features once more. This implies Bane saw what Revan looked like. Lord Patrick 20:24, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I added a new picture. It is slightly different, more of a close-up. If you find a better one, please feel free to replace it, but don't put that horrible one back.Shadow Blade 22:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

What is the source of the picture? It is licensed as if you created it, which seems odd to me. EVula 22:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Pardon? I took an ingame screenshot. The quality isn't the best because I had to crop it. I may have made a mistake in the licencing. If I did, sorry.

Changed - Neodammerung 23:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Found an excellent Photo created by lucas arts of revan i'm in the process of replacing

danieljackson 20:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

If it is an official concept art of Revan, please add the correct source information to prove it. - Neodammerung 01:48, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I realize Atton initially introduces Revan as female in KotOR II, but what he's saying is just what he thinks. As he says when you tell him Revan is a male, he wants to think that Revan's female, because as we can tell from Atton's character (especially if you play as a female Exile), he's always looking for female attention. Therefore, we can safely conclude that Atton has no idea what sex Revan is, and that he simply opened with Revan as female due to wishful thinking. --Nufy8 18:12, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

-This may be true, but my personal canon Revan will always be female.

That's fine, so long as you don't bring your personal canon into Wikipedia. Nufy8 02:18, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

How about bringing the major possibilities, the reality of the game into Wikipedia? There may be people out there interested in having an account of the differences in the game if it is played as a female. Since there is a section on the non-canonical Dark Side male Revan ending, it seems proper that there should be a mention of some the non-canonical female Revan. I'm adding a short section on a female Revan for them (and yeah, the part with Juhani is in the game, it's just very hard to trigger). 71.110.169.254 09:16, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

We'll play by the rules, and add the female perspective, but if it gets gutted just because someone can't stand the idea that female is a POSSIBILITY then, kindly tell the authors here where to take their objections. Despite LucasArts, it's still controversial among the fanbase, with many fans (male and female) disagreeing with that call with a fury previously reserved soley for Jar Jar Binks and Ewoks, even to the point of citing the Emperor's destruction of history and misogyny as a "loophole." There were many aspects of the game that were female-only, including the third ending, things that lead many players (again, male and female) to believe that Lady Revan was not just equal, but better developed. The game put a lot of work into a Lady Revan, work that deserves not to be readily discounted on account of the usual suspects at LucasArts.Allronix 00:56, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

- I agree with adding the female section, even if it's not what happened in cannon it's still interesting to read and good to know, if it actually tried to pass itself off as cannon that would be different—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.41.6.164 (talk • contribs)

I added that section. Where did it go? If I knew more about Wikipedia, I'd bring it back. This is really getting ridiculous. Why in the world is the DS version in if y'all are gonna delete the female possibility? edit: Nevermind, figured out how. Now leave the possibility of a female Revan IN, reality superedes Lucas. 71.110.147.146 00:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, we TRIED playing by the rules and got screwed again. The female option exists, folks. Yes, the "male Revan" verdict was handed down on high, but it's still a controversy among the fandom. There's at least 45% of the fanbase that does not agree with the verdict and flat-out tells Leland to get stuffed. What now? Do we need to make out own page again? Do we just keep baking up the content and restoring it every time some fanboy obliterates the reference? What? Allronix

Again, why was the alternate history of Revan as a woman constantly being deleted when it reflects the reality of the game? Are the people who are pushing the LSM so unsure of their own masculinity that the thought of female alternative makes them feel less special. Grow up!User:StarShadow August 20, 2006

I would just like to point out that in Darth Bane: Path of Destruction it does refer to Revan as a male at least once. The quote occurs as Bane is studying Revan's holocron, he says something about Revan being a true Sith Lord and then "All of his knowledge, would belong to Bane." That may not be an exact quote but it is very close if it isn't.User:Kotor Mark

As has been done on the SWW, seeing as that was his/her real name before becoming a Sith. --Lord Patrick 02:45, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I concur. He did redeem himself and regained his Jedi-ism. --Kross | Talk 12:06, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I too agree. Revan began on the Light Side, and according to the canon ending, was redeemed. Most characters are referenced from their final alignment (ex:

Darth Malak) According to Wikipedia: Naming conventions (names and titles), 'Titles of Knighthood such as Sir and Dame should not be included in the article title.' I would consider 'Darth' to be a title of knighthood. Just like Yoda is used for Master Yoda, Revan should be referred to merely as Revan for titling purposes. This also reflects his canon final alignment to the Light Side. ---Xol

21:53, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

The naming guidelines also say to use the most common name as well; Darth Revan is considerably more known than Revan. --

(talk) Contribs

22:01, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but consider the case of

Darth Traya, aka Kreia. The page is named 'Darth Traya', although Kreia is much more widely known, but the Darth Traya represents her final alignment to the Dark Side of the Force. -Xol

22:08, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but Revan is (canonically) light sided at the end, which Traya/Kreia isn't.

Lord Patrick 22:56, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

That was my point, Lord Patrick. Anyways, I would like to bring this up again, for the sake that people who have not finished

KOTOR would most likely look up "Darth Revan" - the person who was the Dark Lord of the Sith. that should contain a little, non-spoiler information, and have a soft-redirect to Revan along with a major-spoiler warning. The second reason for this is, as above, that Revan cononically ended his known existance aligned to the light side of the Force. -Xol

01:08, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Given that this is an award winning, best selling game with a sequel, I think that "you are Revan" is no longer a spoiler. Thats why I disagree with any soft redirect, its no longer needed. Before KOTOR2 maybe, but now there is no reason to put a soft redirect. Gdo01 22:14, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I mean, if you're here, then you should know that you are Revan. If you don't, then you should go on your Kotor icon, and play the rest of the game And get outta my hair, sheesh I hate being amazingDarthan the destroyer 22:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I didn't read all the posts here, so don't blast me if this opinion has already been answered, but I do believe that Revan was a female not only is Revan said to be a female from Atton in KotOR II, but, Revan is also said to be a female from Kreia in KotOR II also, if my memory recalls correctly, since I have both KotOR and the second game I have been trying to peice it together for a long time, so correct me if I am wrong on my opinion. User:Bestskinz187 7:15 PM, 25 Aug. 2005 (Central Time)

Read the heading above entitled "Revan as a female is not canon." To add to it, Revan's sex in KotOR II is player choice as determined by dialog. Nufy8 00:36, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry i dont know how to post and make a new file name here so i just decided to place my comment here. I think Revan's gender depends on Jedi Exile's gender. Jedi Exile's gender is the opposite of Revan's. I doubt im right in the arugment but i think it's worth shot to say. Right and why does it really matter? Revan is just another fictional character that never will and has existed. Revan's combat strategy's sound more like guerilla attack doing fakes and when he leaves cities ungaurded to strengthen other ones it sounds like hes a Saddam Hussein or w.e. because the "good" guys aka America will never do such a thing unless they have no other choice (sorry its a run on sentence), actually i just think America would use the bomb. (swtiching topics) And don't you think it's so pointless how the "republic" is always under attack but they dont have an army? but in the republic itself almost every world has at least 6000000000000000000000000000000000000 pple living inside? comm'on lets have some common sense at least 20 percent of the population from each country would volunteer willingly. cya

The Exile's gender doesn't have to be the opposite of Revan's in the game. And as for everything else... well... I'm not sure if there was a point in all of that. Nufy8 18:06, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

The choice occurs when Atton makes a statement about Revan, using "she". You can either make a response using "she", or you can ask him if he's gone nuts inside his cell, becuase Revan was a man. It's the presumption of Atton that Revan was female that makes people think Revan was actually a woman. But it really is player determined, depending on whether you respond with "she" or tell Atton he's crazy. --

22:55, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Archive 1 (linked at the top of the talk page) has a pretty in depth debate (with references) over gender with a conclusion that is already accurately reflected on the page. Yincrash 08:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I know this may seem a bit of a radical statement at first, but listen to me before you counter-attack. In my opinion, the decision by LucaArts to make the canon Revan a white(presumeably, by the picture posted earlier in this discussion page) male is at it's very core an extremely sexist and fascist. Not only does it hint at racial superiority, but also extreme misogyny in that all but officialy stating males are the superior force sensatives. I must express my extreme disgust at this article for going along the Fascist "canon" Revan and my utter contempt for LucasArts and the Chauvinist pigs behind this decision. Good day. --Anon.

George Lucas hates black people. (Sorry, that was too good to pass up.) But really, you are joking, right? --Nufy8 14:31, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, many movie critics pointed out some uncomfortable parallels between Jar Jar and those dreadful minstrel show African-American stereotypes. (Check Rotten Tomatoes). Unfortunately, even poor Mace can't make up entirely for that.

I suppose that would make

(talk)

16:30, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

No, I am not joking. Everything I said is how I truly feel. --Anon

Sorry to hear that. Nufy8 20:23, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I do agree that the idea of a white male being the most powerful Jedi of his time is a rather Fascist theme, but what can you do about it? Nothing. --Another Anon.

What disapoints me is that if you take SW seriously, there are so many more objectionable things than that (see

(talk)

20:52, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

If the fact that a powerful Jedi who has fallen to the dark side of the Force (which shows fallibility and imperfection) hints at a racial superiority and is "fascist" (gotta love the ambiguous epithets), simply because the character is male and may be white, then I've lost my faith in humanity's judgment. This, however, is inconsequential. The canon could state in plain words that white males are superior, and it wouldn't make any difference - it would still be canon. And thus, it is what Wikipedia must document. So, unless you have something further to add that pertains to this article, anon, then there is no need to continue -

Wikipedia is not a soapbox

.

It may be canon, and I know it is what Wikipedia must document, but that does not stop me from expressing my opinion, nor sharing it with others.

And Wikipedia is not the place for that. So you'll understand if I ask you to take this elsewhere - a forum, perhaps. Thank you. Nufy8 21:15, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

It's a shame this conversation must draw to a close, as I found it rather interesting. Aryek

Anon has got to be the biggest idiot I've ever seen on wikipedia. I knew that liberals tended to be anti-white and anti-male, but this is just absurd. --Unashamed.

Above comment = ULTIMATE IRONY. Seriously, though, about half the possible player-models are black. Half are female. Revan is described, canonically, as a white male because that's the most likely player choice, as most players WERE white males, not because of any preference.

Exactly... Lets indent! --Lord Deskana ^{Dark Lord of the Sith} 01:47, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Anon: This is just a game and all the force talk is fictional, why does it even bother you so much? It has not even been revealed what race or gender Revan is. In your speech, which was done well, the term you used "Fascist" was not defined thus it is not clear what you mean when you say Fascist. You also stand alone with when you say that "This article is Fascist". Futhermore the Governments of North America have not banned such a game suggesting that there is nothing wrong with it, if there is some mistake which is regretable at any rate take it up to the court not the internet forum.

To be more casual:

OMFG you are so sad to rant about how fascist or sexist star wars is DUDE ITS A VIDEO GAME. It's just for leisure. If you are going to talk about video games being Fascist why don't you also add in the movie "Jackass" (Never seen the movie or the show). The actors in the movie "Jackass" are even worse and are offensive and here you are ranting about a VIDEO GAME that received the 2003 Game of the year award? holy shit rethink ur descision

(not the same person as above)im sorry but reven is a white male the reason for him not being black is that just arent that many black people in the star wars universe get over racism this is another universe we are talking about george lucas could have made black people come from a different planet if he wanted to and the reason for him being male well the biggest evidence i have found (besides the ones listted below)is that in a holo-recording of hk-47 it has a female voice saying and i quote "i love you but i hate all you stand for now lets lock our slimy mucus covered lips together in the cargo hold" and its obviously a female voice now i apoligize for the format i know its wrong -m

What happened to the nice close up pic of Revan from the Sith Tomb in KOTOR 2? I thought it was a much better image than the current pic of Revan that looks like he has a piece of cardboard for a cloak/cape?  :) --(Unsigned comment by User:210.86.47.162)

I don't recall a picture like that on this article, but it might have been replaced. Nufy8 15:52, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

• The one that was on there is the one that is currently on Wookiepedia's Revan article. --86.141.151.138 16:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of Revan's image, did anyone else notice that all the same choosable faces from the first KotOR are the same as the second? (although they have slight differances; such as the character I always choose got his head shaved and grew a gotee)

No, they weren't. Some, like you said, had noticeable reseblances, but the character I played in KOTOR 1 didn't have anyone near him in KOTOR 2. -Xol 01:15, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

No on looks exactly the same in both games. Sorry to spoil your fun. Darthan the destroyer 22:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I would like to bring this up again, for the sake that people who have not finished

would most likely look up "Darth Revan" - the person who was the Dark Lord of the Sith. that should contain a little, non-spoiler information, and have a soft-redirect to Revan along with a major-spoiler warning. The second reason for this is, as above, that Revan canonically ended his known existance aligned to the light side of the Force.

I will move this to

02:15, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Consider it voiced. --

(talk) contribs

06:13, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Should we not care about those users who will look up Darth Revan half way through the game (compared to the smaller amount who will look up Revan)? I won't move it, since it's already here and there are people who want to keep it that way, but why is Darth Revan so much better as a title?

I've got two reasons supporting the title of Revan:

- Revan returned to the light side

- People mid-game are more likely to look for Darth Revan

In opposition, I have heard your point that:

- Darth Revan is a more commonly known name

But I think that Revan is at least, if not more, common. -Xol 06:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

1. So what? Darth Vader isn't at Anakin Skywalker.
2. That's an argument for the current article name.
3. I doubt strongly Revan is better known than Darth Revan. --
   (talk) contribs
   14:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. I would only move it if no one else cared, and as you replied so quickly, it's obvious that this is at a good place now. Darth Revan it is. -Xol 05:46, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

who is more powerful in the Force, Darth Vader or Darth Revan?

Hmmm... Darth Vader. Even as Anikan Skywalker, Qui-Gon said that his power in the force is more than anyone else's. I mean, get real. Even though his body is mutilated, he is still the CHOSEN ONE. Revan was getting training for the Chosen One, but he's not. That question is like asking if you prefer wood to ice-cream. Darthan the destroyer 22:09, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Anakin Skywalker may have been the Chosen One, but that does not make him the greatest. Qui-Gon stated his midochlorian count as the highest he had ever seen, which is based on his personal observation, and does not rule out the chance of others being even higher. Besides, the game is set nearly 4,000 years before the events of the movies. The Force was more spiritual and primal, rather than scientific, which is what Qui-Gon's statement was based on. —The preceding

unsigned comment was added by Speedman336 (talk • contribs

) 03:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

What? Hes the chosen One. The question, if you'll recall, is who is more powerful in the force. I mean, even as a boy, he had a higher midichlorian count than any other Jedi. Don't you assume that that possibly refers to the Old Republic as well? Darthan the destroyer 22:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

It is possible that it could extend to the Old Republic, but I will not assume that they do. Four thousand years is quite a long time... The Old Republic was a time of great turmoil, and it is a great wonder that the Republic was able to survive. Revan's midochlorian count, if it was assessed, could have easily been destroyed by the attacks on the secret enclaves. Any Jedi historians could have been killed. The knowledge of that time period may have been lost to its successors forever. It is not impossible that Qui-Gon's resources stretched that far, though I find it highly improbable. —The preceding

unsigned comment was added by Speedman336 (talk • contribs

) 03:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

Lets just say, I have my sources. I know episode 1, and I think that at least ONE stinkin Jedi would have lived and put down how strong in the force Revan is. Darthan the destroyer 22:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

This is getting fucking redicilous. THERE IS NO CANON IN STAR WARS: KNIGHTS OF THE OLD REPUBLIC! THERE ARE ONLY TWO THINGS THAT ARE CANON. THE MOVIES, AND WHATEVER GEORGE LUCAS SAYS. LUCASARTS DOES !!NOT!! COUNT! IT IS NOT THE CREATOR OF STAR WARS, AND DOES NOT HOLD THE COPYWRIGHT TO THE IDEA! GEORGE LUCAS DOES! SO STOP SAYING THAT THERE IS A CANON WAY TO PLAY, BECAUSE THERE ISN'T! IT'S N00BS LIKE YOU THAT MAKE THIS WORLD SEEM LIKE A HAVEN OF LIES AND DECIET AND MISINFORMATION. JUST STOP!

First, lose the caps lock. Second, read

Star Wars canon. Statements like that, when a reliable source (which is clearly indicated in the article) says the opposite, are more than a little misguided. Nufy8

03:25, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I spoke in Caps to get your attention. And, the article you just posted proves my point. This, according to Lucas, is the Parallel universe, and there is no canon in the parallel universe.

Did you even read all of the article? C-canon (novels, comics, games, etc.) are considered canon and make up the

Expanded Universe. Nufy8

23:41, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I forebore the first time, but now I'm blocking you for personal attacks among other things. --

(talk) contribs

00:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)Voracity; rapaciousness.

Something taken as prey. The act or practice of preying.

Ravin or (Raven) raven means Voracity; rapaciousness. Something taken as prey. The act or practice of preying.

Raven is also an anagram of Revan

KOTOR is canon in the typical non-movie, it doesn't contradict anything higher than it sense. -Xol 05:46, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

One of the best parts of KOTOR, and a part that no doubt made Lucas and the SW “purists” uncomfortable was the willingness to question the “Jedi are good/Sith are evil” simplicity of the canon universe. David Gaider did more for the Sith in one hour of playing through Korriban than Lucas did in six movies. Chris Avellone of Obsidian further challenged the dogmatic tone of the SW universe with characters like Kreia and Atton Rand, characters who were fast and brutal in their critique of the Jedi. The “big twist” in KOTOR1, in addition with several other conversations (such as the conversation with Bastila regarding Jedi and family), beg the question as to whether the Jedi are just as bad as their Sith counterparts. The sequel goes even further, depicting the Jedi vs Sith conflicts as just another brawl over religious dogma.

KOTOR loves the SW universe, but can make a lot of “thou shalt not question” types uneasy and angry. Just as DS9 pissed off Trekkers who believed the Federation beyond reproach, KOTOR does the same to SW fans. Therefore, it would only make sense that the “purists” would try to bring it in line with something they’re more comfortable with, such as the Dominion War and the insistence that Revan (and Exile) must be white (I'd nearly bet my paycheck on it if LucasArts puts out an official drawing), male, LS Allronix 00:53, 10 June 2006 (UTC)Allronix

Okay then, if its sooo canon, why do you have the choice to be a man? I mean, does a lot of stuff really change when your playing as a woman? nooo. So shut up. Darthan the destroyer 14:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

All of you should remember

WP:CIVIL. --Deskana (request backup)

14:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Ahem, excuse me for DOING WHATEVER THE HELL I PLEASE, I WANNA PROVE A POINT, YOU DONT HAVE TO BE NICE TO PROVE A FCKIN POINT!!! Darthan the destroyer 15:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

That may be true, in your point of view, although others are much less inclined to contemplate your point if it is taken in agression. As for your original statement about canon... Anyone may choose to play the game in whatever way they wish, sticking as closely or far away from canon as they like, though it will not change the canon itself. The option is a gameplay element implemented for variety, replay value, and to reach a broader audience. While playing through the various options is wonderful, certain things must be defined in order to continue in the advancement of the story, and to lay the foundation for future games. Revan is perhaps the most prominent figure of the Old Republic, and to leave him/her ambiguous would be limiting for future games and productions. Speedman336 10:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

To the OP: Kid, your spelling is almost as bad as your knowledge of Star Wars. Darth Maddolis 00:14, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The official Star Wars website treats NOTOR as canon, although it doesn't have any preference to any of the alternate endings or establish Revan's gender. Emperor001 00:24, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Why can't we add this point of view in this (very good) article? I think we should add the fact that in Kotor II it seems that Revan is a female, of course it's a different game from different people than Kotor but it's still interesting to note

Because it's player choice; if you tell Atton that Revan is female, then Revan will be considered female throughout the game. Nufy8 16:35, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

If you tell him that Revan is a male he will say something like "Are you sure, I thought Revan was a woman", I'm sure about it. It's seems important to me to mention that in the article

He says that he probably thought Revan was a woman because he wants Revan to be a woman. Basically, he really has no clue. Nufy8 03:40, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

The "I don't care" options put Revan as LSM. However, just how would the fanboys react if Atton's "woman" comment was canonized instead? I doubt the controversey would be any less, quite the contrary. It might just make up for Padme's shoddy treatment, though. *sigh*

Removing the image because of a new armor set is ridiculous. This article is based on Star Wars canon and not a guide to playing the video game. The video game and everything in it is not accepted into the star wars databank. Most of what you see in the game is because it is a game. Jedi didn’t run around in the same clothes everyday. Revan didn’t go swoop bike racing for fun. dark side Side Revan did use Dark Side powers. You get the idea. Game mechanics is not canon. Redd Dragon 05:41, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

If Wikipedia is to maintain a neutral point of view according to its policy and if it is to accurately represent the game--this arctle should maintain the gender neutrality of Revan's character.

The page was edited into a less controversial form, to satisfy both male and female fans alike. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EA569 (talk • contribs)

We follow canon information, and canon is male. A sufficient disclaimer is present to clarify these matters; also, Wikipedia is not intended to be politically correct. --

(talk) contribs

01:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

This is about being politically correctess, its about neutrality. And the page as edited DID acknowledge Revan as cannon if you bothered to read. You want political correctess put it somewhere else.

Gender neutrality follows the game. Deal with it or waste your time editing continuously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EA569 (talk • contribs)

Pointing out the possibilities the non-canon game mechanics allow at each step of describing the non-game mechanics canon plot is both pointless, unuseful, and bad prose. Neutrality, indeed. --

(talk)

contribs 05:04, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

And your decision to omit the non-biased version of this article counts as censorship, Mr. Anti-Censorship. Look it up in a dictionary if you know what that is, and then look up other words such hypocrisy, sexism and manners. Although I really doubt it will do you any good.

Any omission can be argued as being censorship. Do you have a point besides name-calling? --

(talk) contribs

06:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I believe calling you by one of your causes actually is accurate of your profile. The choice to take it as a personal attack is yours. And the words I used where key words I thought you should look up. However, I really am amazed that you feel threatened by a gender-neutral character, you also appear to have diffuculties reading. And as long as we're keeping tab you did start the insults first. Unless you are going to censor that as well.

I can barely keep up with this discussion page, what with the rampant flaming and unsigned arguments (like the one above, for which I want no attribution). Regardless, I feel that referring to Revan as "he" in the article is acceptable in the interest of brevity, so long as the introduction makes it clear that the gender is ultimately the choice of the player. However, the detail provided of romance between Revan and Bastila is going too far. It is possible that they could be homosexual, but the vast majority of readers (and, realistically, the vast majority of game designers) are heterosexist - playing a female in Knights of the Old Republic, the player does not have the option of flirting with Bastila, instead with Carth. I have removed mention of a Revan-Bastila relationship, but I still believe that the biography needs work - it is far from encyclopedic in tone, reading more like a rather poor attempt at a novel. --IntrigueBlue 09:29, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Deleting citations of sources that prove inconvienient to the position of this page is not objective by Wikipedia's own standards of condunct. You want to appear objective at least maintain the aura of objectivity. StarShadow

You have no room to talk about objectivity on Wikipedia; your previous edit was one of the most blatantly POV edits I've seen in a while. Feel free to contribute to this article, but do so without pushing your personal point of view. EVula 16:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia should reflect the sources, and the claim is well supported. You can't claim anything if you don't have sources. A point of view is only valid in so far as it is supported. Anyone with college degree in the social sciences will tell you that. Not everything is as objective as math or science. Let the page reflect the facts, if you don't you are simply confirming the claim. StarShadow

Just because something has sources doesn't mean it belongs in an article.

"Ther [sic] decision to "canonize" Revan as male has met with extensive controversy, especially from the female fans of the Star Wars series."

Extensive controversy? Yeah, right. It only shows up now... The crappy ending and content of KOTOR II was more controversial than this, even assuming that: a majority of players even know of the canon gender, and that they know what that means, and also that they so much as care at all. This is uncited and unlikely.

"Disappointed with portrayals of other female characters in the movies, and marginalization of other female characters in the EU, the possibility of a female protagonist/villain was welcomed."

Again, sweeping judgements and POV, with no cites. Perhaps my patriarchical male brain is hopelessly addled, but I see no reason to place any credence in this; complaints about females in SW are generally a throw away line or two in even the more comprehensive criticisms of Star Wars. Most people prefer to focus on -isms with substance, like Jar Jar.

"Others cite the "female-only" features of the game and the Empire's misogyny as ways to question the point. Even after LucasArts' official word, a substantial portion of the fanbase stick to either gender neutrality or a female Revan.[5]"

This makes no sense. Either the female only features argue against any bias, or they don't; it makes no sense to balance two clauses which argue both for and against. And the last sentence is pointless. It is equally true that a substantial portion of the fanbase chose to play a dark side Revan, and to use lightsabers as their primary weapons; this is equivalent, as gender is a gameplay mechanism choice. Note that that unscientific informal poll was about something else other than you construe it to be: it asks what gender they played as, the first time ("Which gender have you played for the first time?"). This has nothing to do with any political incorrectness of canon Star Wars material.

"However others will find misogeny in George Lucas' own words:"Well, it's not 'Titanic.' This is the boy movie."[See reference below]"

You're quietly making a dubious assumption that Lucas was not talking about genre- romance as opposed to action, ken?

"By reflecting the exclusivist standards of the Empire in their own works and canon, Lucas Arts, Lucasfilm and all the companies that fall under the Lucas affiliate are no different than the Empire. And G-level canon confirms it."

This isn't even worth arguing against. Yeah, of course the entire EU is as bad as the Empire- Leia's success, Jaina's success, the many successful aliens etc. are all just oddities. And of course that means that a fictional interstellar mass-murdering oppressive Empire is the equal of himble LFL. </sarcasm> --

(talk) contribs

21:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the citation needed note on Revan and Malak using their original name when taking the "Darth" prefix, in KotOR II there are flashbacks and recorded sequences dating from before the Jedi Civil War where Revan is referred to as Revan. Particularly the holo record of the Exile's Trial, Revan is referred to as such throughout in this sequence. At the time of the Trial, Revan has left for the unknown regions with much of the republic fleet, but has yet to return at the head of a Sith one. Taking this into account, it seems clear that Revan would not yet be Darth Revan, and as such the references to "Revan" in this sequence are using her real name. I beleve Darth Malak is also referred to as Malak in the flashbacks on Korriban in KotOR II. Since the games don't seem to be cited directly in the article, is this sufficient to have the "citation needed" not removed? Reveilled 15:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. EVula 15:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Quotation: ::::"By reflecting the exclusivist standards of the Empire in their own works and canon, Lucas Arts, Lucasfilm and all the companies that fall under the Lucas affiliate are no different than the Empire. And G-level canon confirms it."

This isn't even worth arguing against. Yeah, of course the entire EU is as bad as the Empire- Leia's success, Jaina's success, the many successful aliens etc. are all just oddities. And of course that means that a fictional interstellar mass-murdering oppressive Empire is the equal of himble LFL. </sarcasm> --

(talk) contribs

21:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Yet again, your own suggestion of a the female represention simply confirms the quote that you, Maru, and ELuVa have removed?

So the question remains given that both of you, as objective Star War fans, know that:

1. The Empire was for unfairly representing females both politicially and other wise, given the novelizations

and

2. That Lucasarts has upto now both in the EU and otherwise unequally destributed their female characters as primarily side characters rather than primary epic characters: like Vader, Revan and Luke.

Do you think that Lucas' comment as " . . . This is a boys move, is *not* mysogenistic and non consistent with the Epires policy of promoting males over females? Or would you prefer that a female not even be able to post on wikipedia(that would solve this discussion wouldn't it, and if there weren't any female Star Wars fans, you could have probably ignored the trend altogether)?

Both are legitamate questions: if a certain organization is by G-level canon, evil. Then why imitate that organization practices in your mythology? How can you even begin to spin a non POV version of a statement that is clearly POV? By maintaining a non POV on a clearly POV statement you put your own POV on it. So if a statement has a negative conotation(for example -2 and you decide that it has a neutral value of 0, doesn't it require a depiction of a +2 somwhere to get it to a 0 neutral value.)Simple logic and simple mathematics. Where did you pull your neutrality from if not from your own POV?

Being indifferent towards a statement by a primary source doesen't make you objective it merely makes you confirm what the primary source has said. You are being far from objective, in deleting that comment, hardly academic(which is why most university departments don't consider a wikipedia entry worth its weight in ink). It simply means you bury your head under the sand and, rather than comment on the statment, pretend it does not exist[as the contuous deletion suggests]. If you want to be reputable stop making exscuses, start by stopping deleting true documentation of the creator of a universe that clearly projects a heternormative of male and female roles.

And yes, Maru, my entry does come late but the lateness of my entry, according to the policy shouldn't detract from the value of my entry. Unless, for some reason you are holding a grudge as your statement seems to reflect.

Stop trying to make exucuses for a galaxy that hitherto has pro-male in the presentation of its epic characters and at least allow the documentation to reflect what it does. Otherwise, you not I are the ones who are not being objective. Similary most of you who have stopped my additions to the this page are the very same people who have voted for the Female Revan page. Not exactly showing you are objective in both, since pretty much everything that was written in the documentation page is confirmable by both the games' tlk files, where as your article has little specifics on the details so nit-pickily maintained, specifically you no documentation for Revan's height given by the games and the Star Wars galaxy does not use the British system of weighs and measures, as given by most of the documentatin books. Virtually all weights and measures are given in meters in the Star Wars galaxy, not feet. Furthermore none of those numbers for Revan or any of the characters in the game are given anywhere(Unless you want to cite the source). Reference to height specific to other characters in game requires a POV(a reletative statment reguarding the height of referenced characters in comparison to others), or specific source--notice I did not change the article before I brought this up. But the statement of Revan's height being unacceptable as being unknown is really a POV statment if you are really keeping track.

And please notice that most of the contributions to the Female Revan portion of this page where not welcomed, and even deleted until the other page was put up. That either suggests, that the primary editors and contributors to this page do not want to reflect the full character other than male, despite the game, which is the primary reference or that female editors are not welcome on this page. I can possibly understand the exclusivist management of this page to reflect canon, but the desire to destroy the other page[which has more documentation] indicates an entirely different agenda.StarShadow

I recommend removing the part about Tekky's fic. As good as it is, it's not canon, and has no real relevance. It's fanon, really. 70.30.158.135 02:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a neat bit of information to keep... if its notable, which it isn't. Its gone now. EVula 03:38, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

i would wish u would stop saying revan went to the light his true fate is unknowin and on wookieepeadia it says that revan was a man ok thats it and in kotor2 it seems that revan went to the dark side but his true fate is unknowin

You misunderstood KotOR 2, then. Where it talks about her turning to the dark side, people are referring to the pre-mindwipe Revan. Revan is canonically lightsided, and left for the unknown regions to combat the true sith. Revan only turns to the dark side in the sceond game's account of the first if you say as much in the conversation with Atton. --Reveilled 15:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

o no revans true fate is unknowin and lucas arts has said that revan was a man anyway i dont think there will be a kotor3 bc thay cant dicide if revan went to the dark or light i want you to e-mail this guy he is a sith master ok is e-mail is [email protected] in the end of the game lucas arts gives the player a chioce thay can make him dark and thay can make him light but i think it is up to the player so u live in your world and i live in my world u know the guy at the top is right there is no conon in kotor he is right u are spereding lies let see what trya has to say :revan leaft his sith fallowers and went to the unknowin space to take command of the sith fleet revan also wanted to lurn more about the dark side of the force -trya and revan is a man and u dont care about what u say

First of all, thanks. I needed a good laugh. Second, Lucasarts has actually stated that the canonical ending for KOTOR, and all Star wars video games, supports the victory of the light side of the Force.[[1]] Therefore, Revan is canonically Light Side. Third, learn some basic spelling. Peptuck 11:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

hmmm hear is the site of the sith master just look at the jedi civil war http://www.edandmari.com/starwars/history.html#Jedi%20Civil%20War i also want u to give me a link to where lucas arts said that about the canon he says his true fate is unknown i also was going to tell u that in a holocron on korriban in kotor 2 u can find it and bastila says he did not want her to have the star forge revan had left it behind so no sith could take it and i also want to tell u that a kotor 3 is coming out december 2008 it is called invasion of the sith so will see then. this comes from the sith of the sith master....But the heroes of the Mandalorian Wars did not leave the war untouched; something about the Outer Rim worlds twisted and corrupted them. On Korriban, Revan uncovered the lost secrets of the Sith and became the heir to an ancient and evil legacy. Succumbing to the lure of the dark side, the fallen Jedi assumed the title of Darth Revan, Lord of the Sith. Malak was chosen as the Dark Lord's apprentice, and the great fleet under their control abandoned the Republic and swore fealty to their new Sith masters. With their army of followers, Revan and Malak returned not as saviors, but as conquerors. For two years battles raged on the perimeters of Republic space. The Sith gained victory after victory, until the Jedi set a trap to capture Revan and Malak. But during the chaos of battle, Malak turned on his master and tried to destroy both Revan and the Jedi, but his plan failed. Revan was captured by the Jedi, but Malak escaped and proclaimed himself the new Dark Lord, swearing revenge on the Jedi and Revan. Revan, stripped of his memory and former identity, became a pawn of the Jedi in an attempt to track down Malak. With the aid of the Jedi Bastilla, the brainwashed Revan relearned the ways of the Jedi while on a mission from the Jedi Council to find Malak, completely unaware of having a previous identity. Revan finally caught up with his former apprentice on the ancient Star Forge station. In that final confrontation, the traitorous Malak was defeated. Contradictory records have been uncovered on what happened to Revan after that, so his true fate is unknown.THERE IS NO CANON IN STAR WARS: KNIGHTS OF THE OLD REPUBLIC! THERE ARE ONLY TWO THINGS THAT ARE CANON. THE MOVIES, AND WHATEVER GEORGE LUCAS SAYS. LUCASARTS DOES !!NOT!! COUNT! IT IS NOT THE CREATOR OF STAR WARS, AND DOES NOT HOLD THE COPYWRIGHT TO THE IDEA! GEORGE LUCAS DOES! SO STOP SAYING THAT THERE IS A CANON WAY TO PLAY, BECAUSE THERE ISN'T! IT'S N00BS LIKE YOU THAT MAKE THIS WORLD SEEM LIKE A HAVEN OF LIES AND DECIET AND MISINFORMATION. JUST STOP.also u for got how did the exile get the ebon hawk bc revan went to the dark side!!!

Oh, I get it. You're that same person that posted the gibbering stream of bile in the old archives of this talk page. Your understanding of the level of canon within Star wars is negligible at best, and you can do nothing more than copy/paste the same crap you said further up on the talk page. Regardless, the canonical ending for all Star Wars video games is victory for the Light Side; Wookieepedia says as much in its own Revan page. Therefore, the true canonical ending for KOTOR is considered Light Side Revan. Peptuck 15:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Dude who uses caps to much it explaynes what hapens in Kotor 2 and how the Exile got the Eben Hawk if u did not talk to the people then u whold not know also if u still dont beleave me whold u take a cargo ship to a place that u need a war ship for? -Darth Vron

go to this link!!!!!!!!!!http://www.edandmari.com/starwars/history.html#Sith%20War

• Canonically Revan is a light-side male. The Jedi Exile is a female (canon ending has yet to be decided but is considered lightside). Period. Jasca Ducato 19:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC) if i can remember i heard that a knights of the old republic 3 is coming out

Please Site Specific Sources for your height estimations:

These is no official height reference for this character. Therefore the height indications should be left blank or unknown. Furthermore, Star Wars uses METRIC measure. Until there is an officially publicized height the page does not remain accurate. StarShadow 22:30 August 24, 2006 (UTC)

what do u meen? that has nothing to do with the case but no lucasarts did not say revan is lightsided.infact kotor 3 is about revan returning with the old sith empire.and this is all made up about the exile being a woman this is said by some worker over the internet lucasarts did NOT say that i know more about revan then any one. he is my best star wars guy!

The official, canonical ending for all Star Wars video games is victory for the Light Side. This includes KotOR. Observe it on Wookiepedia for yourself. And stop talking about this fabled KotORIII. There's no such thing announced.

. ok there is a kotor 3 read this .:Dear Mr. Lucas, I have a question about the Knights of the Old Republic 3 video game. Will LucasArts make it? If you do, you could create a game about revan returning with the old sith empire?Thank you for reading this and spending your valuable time. Have been your fan since 5 years old.

George Lucas: Thanks for being there for me. I do appreciate it. This is all about the fans. LucasArts has contracted with a software-development firm to create the successor to the last Knights of the Old Republic game. It should be ready for release by Christmas 2008. We will continue to make the games as long as they are highly profitable. I will pass your idea on to my people at LucasArts. and i am getting sick of all this canon crap ok so STOP u are living a lie lucas arts did not say that ok so like george lucas said when it comes out then u will see ok and when that time comes and revan returns with the old sith empire i am going to HA HA HA at u

ok well your lieing about revan and it is not part of the EU infact go to this link boy

http://www.edandmari.com/starwars/Lords.html

I haven't seen you cite or use a single verifiable source that says that KotOR is not part of the EU. The burden of proof here is on you to provide refutation of KotOR's canon status within the EU, but as other EU sources reference KotOR (Shadows and Light, Darth Bane etc.) then it is part of the EU. Peptuck 19:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

This guy sounds like a sockpuppet of Robert Scott Anderson. Also, explain to me how KOTOR is not EU, or for that matter, how Mr. Revan is not EU. Neither are Infinities, neither are S-canon, neither are G-canon, therefore, by the process of elimination , we can conclude they are EU. Lord Patrick 23:24, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I was going through the article and noticed one line that seemed a little biased, it was in the Star Forge section of the article:
"Revan most likely would have defeated Bastila and the remnants of her Jedi strike team if he was given the chance."
It was three Jedi against one with Revan backed into a corner, the outcome would be hard to call if anything. I haven't given the entire article a look over, but I think there should be a check to make sure there aren't more of these comments, if this is considered biased. Razer of Chaos 21:53, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The entire biography needs a lot of work in my opinion, but I will remove that one line in particular. There is no way to tell this from the flashes that we see in dreams. If anything the way that Revan is hemmed off by Bastila and the Jedi indicates that he is losing. --IntrigueBlue 09:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It was four to one between Darth Sidious and four of the most powerful and skilled Jedi Masters in the Jedi Order during Revenge of the Sith, and Sidious quickly dispatched three of them within one minute. I'm sorry, but if Revan is as powerful as he is made out to be in the games he probably would have destroyed Bastila and the strike team. And as for the flashes we see in Revan's dream, the fight between Revan and the Jedi strike team hadn't even begun.

Revan was not corrupted when he was on Malachor. in fact, HK-47 states that the whole battle was a genius move by revan that was to destroy both the Mandalorians and the Jedi and soldiers of the republic, who were not realy loyal to him. Actualy, it isn't realy clear when he became dark sided. I believe Keria says something like "As the war cuntinued, he became like the Mandalorians, growing to despise weaknes.." Both these facts mean Revan was already on the dark path before the battle of Malachor. In Kotor I, Master Zhar claims that Revan was eager to learn, more then what his masters felt was prudent. thats how he probably discovred Koribban and the Star Map that was there. Besides, i don't buy the "true sith" story and I hope that if there will be a Kotor 3, it will offer a new theory as to what actualy happened to Revan.

"Similarly in his book, Darth Bane Drew Karpyshyn avoids any controversial reference or use of gender-centered pronouns to refer to Revan as being either male or female, but instead focuses entirely on the scope and legacy of Revan's accomplishments with regards to the Sith Tradition for the next thousand years that influenced Darth Bane into establishing the Rule of Two."

This sentence is untrue, as I have pointed out that the pronoun "he" is clearly present in the text. Also, the other information you edit back into the article each time you restore this sentence is already present, so just write an explanation on how Revan's sex is only mentioned in narrative from Bane's point of view. Jon Hart 06:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I will, give me the page number so I can look it up exactly since you seem to be the one that found it. I dismissed it as Banes assumption, and it is an assumption. Given the limited information that Bane has about Revan there is no way he could possibly deduce or truthly claim he knows Revan's gender. The use of the "he" pronoun in this instance is a universal one as in he doesn't know what gender the character its used as an indexical standing for a more cumbersome "he/she/it." If you believe my statement is incorrect the burden is on you to provide the evidence with a direct quotation of the passage you are referring to. User:StarShadow 10:31, November 22, 2006 (PST)

"Revan had been a true Sith Lord, unlike the simpering Masters who bowed to Kaan and his Brotherhood. And soon all his knowledge--his understanding of the dark side--would belong to Bane." - p. 229

And one clue is there with the use of "simpering" to describe Bane's masters. Only Bane would describe them in this fashion. The other clue occurs at the start of the paragraph "To Bane . . ." I have included this quote into the new edit along with the clear indication as to how the narrator portrays the avatar which is Bane's only source of information. The difference in the tone of these sentences clearly deliniate the point of view from which they are said, and shows that the author is indirectly portraying Bane's assumption, rather than established epistemological fact. StarShadow 12:54, November 23, 2006 (PST)

Just a further quick note on the pronoun usage, aside the context reveals that the author really is pushing the limits of the language here. Consider the awkwardness of the prose using the alternative gender-neutral pronouns

"And soon all of its knowledge--it's knowledge of the dark side . . ." 

This doesn't work because Revan is a person not a thing. The it works for the avatar but not when referring to the actual person.

 "And soon all of his or her knowledge--his or her knowledge of the dark side . . ."

Again, this looks very unslightly. It would appropriate for technical treatise or paper where the gender of the historical figure is no longer known, but semantics in this alternative are far too technical for a novel marketed to the general public.

 "And soon all of their knowledge--their knowledge of the dark side
 

This doesn't work either, because the subject to which the pronoun corresponds to is not plural.

Now further point as to why the author uses the word "Bane" rather than the pronoun "his," with regard to the indirect portrayal of Bane's thoughts. The way it is written is a stylistic choice on Karpyshyn's part. He could have used italics and portrayed the thought directly, the way other Star Wars authors in their novels, such as Zahn and Stover, but Karpyshyn already uses italics to indicate flashbacks. Over the course of the entire novel he relies on indirect discourse to describe what Bane, Githany and many of the other characters are thinking. The use of the word "Bane" at the end of the sentence makes it appear as if the narrator is reassuming the omniscient perspective, but it *again* conflicts with the "simpering" which is clearly Bane's embellishment and consistent with how Bane views the Sith Masters in the book.

Here's the alternative:

 "And soon all of his knowledge--all of his knowledge of the darkside--would be his."

This would be more consistent with the tone of indirect thought discourse, but this option is semantically ambiguous. While some readers might be able to put the sentence in context with of the paragraph, many readers would be confused. You can imagine the editor going over this alternative and tearing their hair out, or worse: thowing the manuscript on the fire.

I hope you see the point I'm trying to make here. When only one sentence in the entire novel using a gendered-pronoun for a character discussed in numerous pages, that should at least make people wonder why that is the case. The "his" in this case is clearly meant as a universal the same way "man" might stand for all humans, because it doesn't show up anywhere else.

Yes, this wouldn't even be up for debate if instead of "all his knowledge--all his knowledge of the dark side--would be Bane's," the author used "All of Revan's knowledge--knowledge of the dark side--will be mine.

In the initial announcements from Del Rey, the book was supposed to be more of a diary of a Dark Lord, rather than being written from the third person perspective, but given the quality of Bane's character, its more likely that Karpyshyn decided to go with the third person in order to be able to tell the story more thoroughly, after all would you as a reader trust Bane writing from the first person to be objectively truthful as to what a Lord Hoth was thinking? Probably not. StarShadow 01:01 November 23, 2006 (PST).

I don't think it matters at all. In Star Wars canon, Revan is a man, and Path of Destruction refers to him as a man, whether the narrative is written in Bane's point of view of not. You can't know if it was the author's intent that Bane doesn't know Revan's sex, and there's no reason he shouldn't know it. The fact is that Path of Destruction uses male-specific pronouns in reference to Darth Revan, and even though there's absolutely no reason Karpyshyn shouldn't have done so, he could have avoided it if he'd so chosen, like Dan Wallace did in The New Essential Chronology. Specifying Revan's canonical sex was a conscious decision on the author's part, and we have no reason to assume it was intended to indicate historical ignorance on Bane's part. Jon Hart 17:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually it does matter, because the book does not give any kind of evidence beyond what Bane assumes for Revan's gender. The single instance where that line occurs stands out from every other instance that Revan's gender the author could have chosen to do so if what you say is true. We have good reason to assume Bane had alot of information about what Revan did, but no information as to Revan's gender as it is not given aside from his point of view. The conscious decision was stylistically inevitable due to the constraints of the language. Dan Wallace, despite his thought that a female Revan worked best for the storyline, also used the pronoun the New Essential Chronology and pretty much every post he has given on the subject suggests that by "he" his prose actually means the universal for the same gramatical stylistic reasons: "Revan and his accomplices . . . (page 24 in the New Essential Chronology)" Like Karypshyn's work, the male pronoun occurs once in the entire section of his book referring to Revan and instead every other opportunity Revan is either referred to by name or as "warrior" or "combatant."

If the author would have placed the line in italics would have been stylistically inconsistent with the rest of the writing in the book. Again, the male pronoun when used in only one sentence in a book as hardly conclusive evidence when if it truly were the author's original intent to specify canonical gender, he would have done so at every opportunity--and there plenty of places he could have done so and yet he doesn'--Just like Dan Wallace doesn't. When you have the paragraph starting with "To Bane . . ." that's not evidence, that's just point of view. Canon is pointless here. Even G-level canon can change at the drop of a hat through retcon and you know this if you're a Star Wars fan. The fact that Revan was written as a gender-neutral character doesn't change, the primary sources, which are KOTOR I and II tlk, clearly indicate that Revan's actions are more important than what his/her gender. Karpyshyn knew this, he was one of the chief writers for the game. You're taking that one line out of its intended literary context and ingnoring the rest of the text to justify your position. No historical scholar would do that, no literature scholar would do that, and no careful reader would go there either. If you want to use that quote out of context to justify your own personal belief that Revan was indisputably male that's fine with me(your personal beliefs are irrelevant here), but don't quote something out of context and then expect the article to ingnore the rest of the book or the surrounding text in order to conform to those beliefs. Wikipedia is not the place for that.StarShadow 09:40 Novermber 24, 2006 (PST).

You have yet to provide any evidence to indicate that Karpyshyn intended Bane to default to masculine out of uncertainty of Revan's sex. Bane mentally refers to Revan as a man. We know that Revan was, in fact, a man. What reason is there to assume that Bane didn't know Revan was a man? Why wouldn't he know, and, furthermore, even if he really didn't know, he guessed right, so why does it matter? You can't claim to know the author's intention unless you can prove that he has stated what it was.

You claim that the book gives no evidence for Revan's gender other than Bane's reference to him as a man. I ask what other evidence you require. The book isn't about Revan, it wasn't written to act as another source confirming his gender. In one of the handful of scenes in which Revan comes up, he is referred to as a male. You can talk about stylistic inevitability due to the constraints of the language, but Drew Karpyshyn is a professional author, and if he didn't want to refer offhandedly to Revan as male, he wouldn't have.

I also don't see what relevance Dan Wallace's opinion that Revan would have been better as a female has here. Star Wars canon says that Revan was a man, so Wallace had to write him as a man in The New Essential Chronology regardless of his personal views.

As for the reason Revan is referred to as male so sparingly in The New Essential Chronology and Path of Destruction, you need only remember that, in his debut appearance in Knights of the Old Republic, the player could pick his gender. LFL isn't going to risk offending fans who played as a female by ordering their authors to hammer the point indelibly home. Yes, Revan was a man, but in sources that just mention him and aren't written about him specifically, there's no reason to be obnoxious about pointing it out. Jon Hart 20:36, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The evidence is there because he nowhere else is the character referred to in the book with a gender-specific pronoun, the other evidence is the standard convention in english/basic that when a gender the male pronoun is used if gender is not known, hence the external link. Are you going to say a professional writer is ignorant of this convention particularly when he gave no other information? The lack of use of the pronoun anywhere else referring to Revan is the evidence, that nothing is given the reader aside from the avatar is enough to show its a conventional assumption. You are the one using this sentence as evidence that Revan is male, and that Karpyshyn wanted to refer to Revan as male. And I asked you point blank, if that is true, why isn't it anywhere else in the book? Now you back track and say "if he didn't want to refer offhandedly to Revan as male, he wouldn't have." The point is he had a character indirectly refer to another character, without any evidence given for the assumption whatsoever that the character is male. Do you think that he did that deliberately? If there is no evidence then its' an assumption/opinion. Bane is assuming, nothing more. And I'm saying if he wanted to categorically define Revan as a man, as you suggest he does, by one sentence in a book filled with hundreds of thousands of sentences, he would have done so and in a fully direct manner. And there are lots of other more direct ways to treat a side historical figure than Karpyshyn did. Look at the way Kevin J Anderson describes Ulic Quel Droma and Exur Kun in the Jedi Academy Series no avoidance of any kind of pronouns there. He was deliberately avoiding direct reference to the character as male, thats why its an indirect assumption through the thoughts of a character.

And finally, if, as you say, LFL really cared about not offending the fans who played the female/male option in both games they would have never canonized either gender for either Exile or Revan, they would have left well-enough alone. But what happened is they decided capitalize on the success of an inclusive game, make a rushed sequel and determined a once-sided line of continuity was good enough for their bottom line. StarShadow 05:42, 24 November 2006

"You are the one using this sentence as evidence that Revan is male, and that Karpyshyn wanted to refer to Revan as male. And I asked you point blank, if that is true, why isn't it anywhere else in the book?"

And I answered, though perhaps not pointedly blank enough for you, the book is not about Revan, he is not a character in it at all, so there is no reason to dwell upon his sex, particularly when there's a chance it could upset people who played the game as a female.

Now I ask you, equally point blank: Why shouldn't Bane know Revan was a man? More importantly, since we know Revan was a man, why is it worthy of mention in the article that Bane's mental reference to him as a man may have been an assumption on his part due to the presence of only two male-specific pronouns instead of God-knows-how-many-you'd-like? If Bane was just taking a guess, for which there is no evidence other than your assumption of the author's intent, he guessed right, so why should it be mentioned in the article? Jon Hart 03:53, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

In the game, Revan is gender-neutral because it is a role-playing game. Equally open to player decision is Revan's fate, which is canonically Light but players may still choose Dark because it is a role-playing game.

Canon says that Revan is male. How is it a problem that Revan (and his gender) isn't mentioned numerous times in Darth Bane? If it isn't called for, it isn't called for, and there's no point in going back and forth on it. EVula // talk // ☯ // 04:05, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

It should be mentioned in the article because there is no other mention in the book as to Revan's gender, which should be noted. And no clear evidence is given for why Bane thinks that way. Even if it is a guess, and it is a correct canonical guess, that there is no other evidence given as to the gender is the reason it is mentioned in the article. Just like you decided to indicate the same thing about the New Essential Chronology. StarShadow 00:45 November 25, 2006 (PST)

Uh, there's an equal dearth of clear evidence for why Bane wouldn't think that way. Maybe Quordis told Bane about Revan... maybe he didn't. Doesn't matter. He says "he", and that's what we have to work with; assuming that his use of "he" is an assumption on his part is akin to speculation here. EVula // talk // ☯ // 16:45, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not speculating. There is no evidence in the book for Bane's assumption. Therefore his conclusion as far as the book gives information is opinion. Maybes don't cut it here. There's simply no supporting information in the book for using the pronoun in a non-universal sense within the book as Jon suggests. StarShadow 09:07 November 25, 2006.

The fact that "he" is used is the evidence; to assume that it was used in an ignorant way is an assumption that is contrary to what little evidence we have to work with here. You say there is no evidence in the book for Bane's assumption, but there's just as much evidence that it was an assumption on Bane's part to begin with. EVula // talk // ☯ // 18:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Wrong. You're speculating that Bane is assuming, when there is no evidence in the book that Bane isn't certain of Revan's gender. Revan is mentioned a handful of times throughout the book, and one of those times Bane refers to him as a man, which we know him to be. There's no reason to think Bane doesn't know Revan's sex. Jon Hart 20:51, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

You have no proof that Bane knows what Revan's sex is. Show it. Where is it? It's nowhere in the book. You're simply taking it down because you personally don't agree with it. So until you can prove that it not an assumption of the universal "he" which is also backed up by convention, that section should remain. StarShadow 02:14 November 25, 2006

He says "he"; that's the proof, and the source is the Darth Bane book itself. The burden of proof is on you to prove that his use of "he" was an assumption on his part, as there's no evidence to suggest such an idea. EVula // talk // ☯ // 16:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't recall Revan ever having a voice in the game. Where's the source for this?--

14:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

A trip to Wookieepedia answered this one (I was initially pretty confused as well). Romano voices Revan's combat taunts and yells. EVula // talk // ☯ // 15:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

If you're ever playing the game, switch to another character. They'll say something to answer, Like "Ya" "what do you want" When you switch to your character, you'll hear the voice. Darthan the destroyer

Is this category really necessary? He wasn't exactly a psychopath as much as a Sith Lord. He really wasn't crazy. What does everybody else think? Darthgriz⁹⁸ 22:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I removed the crazyness. Anyway, there is no evidence about Revan having a mental illness - Neodammerung 03:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's possible he was a sociopath. Sith Lord's tend to show signs of sociopathy, psychopathy, and narcissism, and someone who killed most of his soldiers for disloyalty, murdered likely quadrillions of people, had Jedi tortured and broken into monstrous slaves, and was deeply corrupted by the dark side would definately qualify for the first two. —The preceding

unsigned comment was added by Lord Patrick (talk • contribs

) 09:21, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

What my teammate is saying is that Most Sith Lords started to get crazy with power. After Revan killed tons of people, I doubt he could ever lead a normal life. Plus, all the killing could make him crazy. Darthan the destroyer 22:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Apparently, everyone's favorite "used to be a Jedi, then became a Sith, then became a Jedi/Sith again" character is getting an action figure. The gender?

Male.

I'll add the information to the article (complete with citation) when I get home, but I just thought I'd toss this out there as yet another nail in the "Revan is really a woman" coffin. This nail goes right next to the fact that, you know, the canon says he's male (tiny detail). EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I've been home and back several times, but never gotten around to doing this. Next week I should have more time. EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Is it official? Because there is a fan-made Darth Revan figure out there on sale. Very well done, I might add.--

The Scourge

18:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind. I saw the figure from an official source, heh. I'll give you the pleasure of putting it up, though.--

The Scourge

18:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the point of the game was to choose who you wanted to be. Why are you all arguing over who is right or wrong? Even if it is canonically male, it could be wrong. I mean, remember, they talk about Revan as if the player was a male, but they did that so if your female, you'll be confused and wonder if you are Revan, whearas you are. See what I'm gettin at? Darthan the destroyer 16:28, 25 January 2007 –

No offense, but that's like saying "Even if George Lucas says Anakin is the Chosen One, it could be wrong.". Canonically Revan is a Human male who redeeemed himself. The other paths would be Infinities. Lord Patrick 20:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm gonna get to that. If your supposed to be a male, then there should be only MALE CHARACTERS to choose from. I mean, whats the point to even have Female Characters to choose from if it brings the fun out of the game? I mean, think about it. If you heard the word Sith, you would automatically think of a Man.(No offense ladies.) I mean, what does Atton Rand say in the second one? Oh ya, thats right, "Revan was a woman wasn't she?" Then you, the main characters either agrees, disagrees, or what ever you want. Darthan the destroyer 22:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

That's because Atton is a horny sonofarancor who would really, REALLY, like to have a powerful woman 'dominating' him (judging by his mention of being interrogated by Exile as a personal fantasy). Based on the fact Candy/GO-TO/other characters refer to Revan as a male even if Revan is played as a female, its possible Atton didn't know R.'s actual gender and was really hoping that Revan would turn out to be female for the aforementioned reasons. But you are essentially fighting an impossible battle, as it's a moot point anyway. Lord Patrick 09:17, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Does nobody get where I'm coming at? Seriously! I mean, whats with all the gender shit. If Revans a man, and you liked playing him as a man, then you'll say he's a man. If you played as a woman, you wont be saying, "Oh, well, my character wasn't Revan, even though NOTHING changed when I played." Think of it My Leige, if Revan was Oh So manly, no one would have any question of his gender. Least of all a man who fought for him in the Jedi Civil Wars. I personally think that since he always wore that mask, no one was able to figure out his gender. A lot of Jedi were killed, and no one would know if Revan was a man or woman since he always wore that mask. Darthan the destroyer 15:41, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I actually think it would be more interesting if Revan was a woman. For one, as some have already said elsewhere, it makes the plot twist much more of a shock, brings another strong female lead into the Galaxy (Leia, Padme, and Mara being among the existing ones), and really makes Revan's relationship with Malak and Kreia even more interesting. Unfortunately, however, Revan is male according to the NEC, Chee, and NEGTD(which also confirms Exile is a woman), so that's what we, as documentors of canon fact, must go with. Lord Patrick 19:55, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Yet again, we are at a stalemate. I agree that there is a canon. I also agree that the game doesn't really change when you're a female. I mean, no one would have a question if Revan was a man, or Exile a woman. But just the fact that Atton asks if Revan is a woman makes sense, since you tell him who Revan was. 68.99.246.75 15:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Plus, I really want to know how all of you are getting this "canon" crap. I mean, it makes no sense to me how you can be a man, but it is wrong. I mean, look at Jedi Acadamy. Yet again, it seems that you are a male. The only reason video games have mainly male canon is because only MALES really play it. Darthan the destroyer 14:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Well my friend, disagree if you wish, but Lucasarts has spoken, and Revan and Jaden are male, and Exile is female. Lord Patrick 20:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Didn't I just agree with you? That felt weird. But, this is different. I mean, the Exile is, yes, supposedly female. But every other game character seems the same. Contact me, anyone, if you disagree. I think that we might fill up a bunch of pages discussing this. Darthan the destroyer 22:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• More "Revan is a man, baby!" evidence... HAPPY DANCE!!!!

Some of you people are really gettin on my nerves. If there is a new Kotor, which I doubt, what more is there to tell? Thats right, there wont be. We're supposed to keep guessing about where Revan goes, or if he dies, or if he is still alive. Darthan the destroyer 22:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

LucasArts has stated that they will not abandon the KotOR franchise. However clouded the future may be, we have their word. Speedman336 10:18, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

So, what? They said the same about episode 7. In a book, at the end, some moron put "wait for episode 7". Plus, if the 2nd one wasnt as great as the first, the third wouldnt be that much better. So, i'd probably buy the third one, but it wouldn't be so much better. Just like how Jedi Acadamy isnt as good as Jedi Outcast. Darthan the destroyer 17:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

The greatness of the original and it's sequel is your opinion. I think the sequel was every bit as good as the first, if not more. I see this franchise as only getting better with time. But that is my opinion... Jedi Academy had some improvements over Outcast, but it also had flaws as well. Same with KotOR. Let us hope that the next developer will draw on the strengths of their predecessors to produce an outstanding game. Speedman336 22:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Listen, I loved Acadamy, because it has different lightsaber techniques. However, with KotOR, It stayed pretty much the same. Darthan the destroyer 22:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

There are a lot of stuff for a great storyline for a KotOR III, personally i hopes you will play as Revan, struggling to break the power of the True Sith or secure the leadership for himself. In a conversation in the beginning of the game someone could ask what happened etc. and what gender was the person who commanded the battle at Malachor V (The Exile) who would later join your party and say "Carth is still waiting for you, and Canderous gathered the mandalorians." as Carth asks you to say and Canderous would probably want it. Besides Traya sends The Exile out in the end to find revan before she dies in the end of KotOR II. -Rovdyr 23:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I want to know why no one is putting that Revan took out Malaks jaw. In the game, He comments to Revan about fighting for the Galaxy AGAIN. So, if they did before, we should assume that Malak thinks its like Skywalker vs. Kenobi. He might think that their roles have switched. Darthan the destroyer 15:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

What? I've seen the game three times and never heard that line. Also, it's pure speculation. We know Malak lost his jaw in a duel, but to whom is unknown. It could of been Revan, Traya, Nihilus, Sion, Vandar, Vrook, Jolee, or any other Sith/Jedi/Dark Jedi/Force user for that matter (In my fic, for example, Exile does it). We have no conclusive canon evidence of who Malak lost his jaw too, and until we do, it should not name names. Lord Patrick 03:46, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

But he says it. It is at the end, when Revan is about to fight him. He clearly says that they will fight again for the galaxy. I mean, if Malak was Revans follower thru and thru, he would have been on Revans flagship. Just the fact that he wasn't shows that he wasn't really trusted. Darthan the destroyer 22:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Because he says they will fight again doesn't necessarily mean their previous duel ended with Revan taking Malak's jaw. It was never mentioned that Revan was responsible for the loss of it, and speculations are frowned upon in Wikipedia which focuses on actual facts for all articles, not assumptions. Such theory will not be added to the article unless genuine source can confirm otherwise.--

The Scourge

23:24, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, HK says it too. I heard it, so did my friend. He says that his master took out Malaks jaw. You cant say that HK could be mistaken. So, Revan must have taken out Malaks jaw. Darthan the destroyer 17:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

• Dresses up as bouncer* I'm going to need to see some tlk files or sound files for that.

I doubt that they have something as signifigant as that on wikipedia. If they did, we wouldn't be arguing right now. Darthan the destroyer 22:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and one more thing. It would make more sense. I mean, if Revan took out Malaks jaw, that would explain his trechory in the first place. Not only that, it would also say why that, when Malak learns of Revan being alive, he sends as many Sith as he can after him. Darthan the destroyer 14:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Provide an actual source that says that Revan took out Malak's jaw. if one of the characters states it, please provide a quote and a way to get that quote; I've played the game extensively and never once heard HK mention Malak's jaw being taken by Revan, and I've explored all the dialogue options I'm aware I can follow when talking with HK. Peptuck 04:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

To quote wookieepedia:Darth Malak:

"One view held by some fans (though one without any supporting evidence) is that Revan himself dealt the blow that severed Malak's lower jaw after Malak publicly challenged Revan's authority."

I think that, if there was actual evidence of this, Wookieepedia would have it. They can cite fan rumors, we do not. Also of note, the Databank doesn't say who did it, either.[2] EVula // talk // ☯ // 14:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)