Talk:The Chosen (TV series)

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Regarding added content

@Butlerblog The sources that previously claimed a supposed heresy belong to the same page I cited to add positive contexts about the series, 1. In the first instance 2, I synthesized two sources improperly, for which I apologize. In the second instance 3, I refer to the source itself. Considering the 3rd reversion 4 of my edit for trying to include context, there must be a specific issue regarding this. As the sources are blogs, it would be best to leave it without that mention. Best regards. Berposen (talk) 19:20, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are several problems with what was added. First, there's the issue of grammatical/structural style. It appears from the edits as well as your words here ("[adding] positive contexts about the series") that you're trying to offset the section of critical review. By doing that, the paragraph structure is thrown off. Additionally, there's no need for that as there is already a clear differentiation between positive and critical review of the series. In fact, that entire section consists of predominately positive review. Related to this is that your copy is very editorial in style (such as "Among the quarantine phenomena that have made a splash on Catholic social media, one stands out from the rest"). Don't write in a
WP:SELFPUBLISH). ButlerBlog (talk) 21:25, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
"Clearly, understood. Thank you for the time you dedicated to this. Kind regards." Berposen (talk) 23:47, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Disciples, not Apostles

The 12 men following Jesus in the show are not Apostles. They are not referred to as Apostles. "Apostles" as a label was not given to the 12 Disciples until after Jesus' death, resurrection, and the Holy Spirit descended on all of them, as recorded in the Book of Acts. The Chosen is a show based on the Gospels of Jesus Christ. Acts is not one of the Gospel books. The cast/character descriptions need to match what's happening in the show and the literature the show is based on, not what was written about the Disciples/Apostles in books not included in the Gospels or in the show's content. Butlerblog, for whatever reason, is set on keeping the description of the 12 students/followers of Jesus as "Apostles", but not once have the writers referred to the Disciples in the show as Apostles, nor has that been reflected in the script. In fact, there was no such thing AS an apostle in Christendom until after the events of the Book of Acts took place. I believe using "Apostles" in this article isn't just incorrect, is anachronistic and changes the narrative of the show. A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 02:21, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Let me address this statement: "[N]ot once have the writers referred to the Disciples in the show as Apostles, nor has that been reflected in the script". That is incorrect, otherwise I would not have reverted your changes. In season 3, episode 2, Roumie (Jesus) says the following (emphasis added) "There will be many more followers and like those not here, all will have roles and responsibilities. Most will be disciples, students. But I have chosen you twelve as my apostles."[1].
To address your noting that "[t]he cast/character descriptions need to match what's happening in the show and the literature the show is based on..." you're partially right. You need to leave it at "what's happening in the show". We've been through this issue before, but it bears repeating. The show is the subject of the article and is a work of historical fiction, so the info about characters or names or anything else is "in-universe" regardless of what scripture says (or doesn't say). ButlerBlog (talk) 14:38, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Radiant Fellow & Butlerblog: Yes, Jesus chose them to be His Apostles, but for the future, for a later time. The 11 (not 12 because of Judas' betrayal and suicide) became apostles later, after the death and resurrection of Jesus. They could not be apostles while Jesus was still on earth because while He was there, they were his students, His disciples. Apostles are emissaries. Jesus commissioned the disciples to be His emissaries AFTER He had resurrected. Even in the body of this article, they are referred to repeatedly as disciples, not apostles. Dallas Jenkins, in interviews, refers to them as disciples, not apostles. The actors themselves, refer to their characters as disciples, not apostles. This link to Angel Studios' list of the cast in the show refers to them as disciples, not apostles. [2] Their characters are disciples in the show, therefore, they need to be referred to as disciples in this article as well. The article is about the show, so we need to stick to the facts of and about the show based on sources (like the cast list from Angel Studios - and others elsewhere online). We can't justify using "apostle" because it was uttered once in the show. Repeated use of "disciples" to describe the 12's characters in cast lists, scripts, and by the writers themselves is evidence enough that "disciples" is correct and "apostles" is not. A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 16:25, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@
WP:BRD. BRD is not arguing your point while also continually reverting to your preferred change. It is understanding that your change was not accepted by other editors and leaving it status quo ante while discussion ensues. ButlerBlog (talk) 17:09, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
@Butlerblog: and @Radiant Fellow:, you are reverting without discussing. Your repeated reverts are not the way to come to a consensus, so why you claimed in an edit summary there was already consensus makes no sense. Your quote of one instance in the show and script where "apostles" was used vs. the multiple times "disciple(s)" is used in the show, as well as the multiple cast lists found online that say "disciple" (including from Angel Studios, see link in my previous comments above) is not persuasive. Attacking me in your last comments and trying to make a case against me as an editor is not discussing the issue and topic at hand. Please stick with the facts of the show, the actual scripts and cast lists that refer to the characters of the 12 as disciples (not apostles), and go from there. If you revert again without actual discussion and consideration of the very valid points I made above, I will have no choice but to report you for edit warring and just being plain stubborn in a POV manner. I don't want to do that, but at this point feel as if you are intentionally forcing my hand that direction. Please, if you have strong evidence other than one utterance of "apostles" during the three seasons and 24 episodes that "disciples" isn't accurate, then bring it here so we can talk about it. Thank you. A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 17:19, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@
WP:EDITCONSENSUS. You need to put the article back to the status quo ante version until consensus changes through discussion. ButlerBlog (talk) 17:53, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
hello, @Butlerblog, as per the request of @Alaska4Me2, the link that the latter provided mentions the word "Apostles," hence, distinguishing the definition between apostles (the twelve) and disciples (other followers besides the twelve). Hoping this will come to light in agreement, since the article says otherwise, seeing that we must follow what the show is chronologically. Radiant Fellow (talk) 00:41, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Butlerblog and @Alaska4Me2, I stated the reason above my justification, thank you. In addition, the details of the show here in Wikipedia must be based on the sequential terms in the series. Radiant Fellow (talk) 02:47, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Butlerblog and @Alaska4Me2, in addition, considering these twelve disciples are not only disciples but are termed for the show itself, specifically the content, as "Apostles" (based on the link given [4] which mentions the special title of Apostles). Reconsider this aspect as it's for the more accurate information of the characters in the series. As @Butlerblog initially agreed with me, and with the link @Alaska4Me2 clearly provided that the latter used to support the latter's change, the term 'Apostles' is more fitting and satisfactory for this medium due to the current course of the show. Thank you. Radiant Fellow (talk) 02:57, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Except it's not more fitting since the official cast/character list at Angel Studios refers to every one of the 12 as "disciples". "Apostles" isn't mentioned there once. Are you saying Angel Studios isn't a reliable source? Alaska4Me2 (talk) 03:09, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Alaska4Me2, you are explicitly wrong when you said, ""Apostles" isn't mentioned there once." The term "Apostles" is mentioned in the link you, @Alaska4Me2, provided, such as where it states, "The Chosen’s main cast of characters—mostly comprised of Jesus, the Apostles or disciples, and those closest to Him." Please, reconsider this with my justification for this matter, alongside the presented arguments. Furthermore, I'm not implying Angel Studios isn't a reliable source as I examine it. @Butlerblog, what's your take? Radiant Fellow (talk) 03:50, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While the term "apostles" is mentioned there, "disciples" is used in the descriptions, and we should use it here. As for the source, it's not what we'd consider "ideal" as a source, but that's not the same as saying "not reliable". I'd consider it useable, but on a limited basis. ButlerBlog (talk) 14:47, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Radiant Fellow: - you have reverted back to your preferred, albeit incorrect, version of the article without discussing a thing at this page. Not once have you tried to talk about it. Your edit summary says, "corroborating ButlerBlog" and claims there has been consensus. [5] How can there be consensus without discussion? It would be great if you actually came here to discuss rather than acting in proxy for another editor who, it now seems from all appearances, feels he has ownership over the article. A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 16:39, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The premises that the term apostle should only be used for followers of Jesus after his death and that the apostles did not include Judas Iscariot are not in accord with the Gospels of Luke (6.13: "When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles:"[6], with Greek αποστολους) or Matthew (10.1-2,5: "Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness. These are the names of the twelve apostles ... and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions:"). While disciple means, roughly, pupil / apprentice / follower, apostle means one who is sent out, and Jesus is described as sending them out as apostles quite early in those gospels. NebY (talk) 15:36, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@NebY: What you've mentioned here MAY be a faulty premise (from a theological and exegetical perspective, I don't believe it is at all). But since this is a TV show article not a New Testament Bible or theology article, we have to go with with the reliable sources say. Right now, the reliable written source we have available to us is the studio that has produced the released series episodes up to this point, Angel Studios. And at their official cast/character list, the (later) Apostles are each noted to be a "disciple", not apostle. Not to mention, in cast/crew/production staff interviews found online (especially from Dallas Jenkins, the show's creator, director, and co-writer), "disciple" to describe the 12 is used repeatedly, if not almost exclusively. A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 18:29, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We are not restricted to the vocabulary of cast lists nor, as you acknowledge, were those involved. Apostles is a common, conventional and gospel term for those disciples individually and collectively, and vice versa; the twelve apostles are often referred to as disciples. Our articles Apostle, Apostles in the New Testament, Commissioning of the Twelve Apostles and Disciple (Christianity) go into some detail on the matter. NebY (talk) 16:59, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's my understanding that we are restricted to what sources say and that Wikipedia itself cannot be used as a source. Anything else way may find that doesn't support the subject of the article or we have personal knowledge of is original research, is it not? A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 18:03, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, the use of the term "apostles" for the twelve apostles does not constitute
WP:OR that ""Apostles" as a label was not given to the 12 Disciples until after Jesus' death, resurrection, and the Holy Spirit descended on all of them, as recorded in the Book of Acts" and so will end here by saying that you do not have consensus for your assertions that the disciples should not be referred to as apostles. NebY (talk) 18:37, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
It does constitute original research in relation to the tv show, this article's subject. I agree that the apostles were apostles eventually. But while they were walking and talking and learning from their Rabbi (Jesus) during the course of the Gospels, they were still disciples. The television show, The Chosen, is about and based on the Gospels and the activity that took place as recorded in the Gospels. Even the description of the show and its purpose states as much at the beginning of season one, episode one: "The Chosen is based on the true stories of the gospels of Jesus Christ...". The 12 were not referred to, nor did they refer to themselves, as apostles until AFTER the time period of the Gospels closed out. They became Jesus' emissaries (which is what an apostle is) after He issued His Great Commission, which is in the very last chapter of the Book of Matthew. At that point, they became Apostles, and that is recorded in the Book of Acts.
Regardless, none of this is part of the storyline of The Chosen (yet). And the official cast list/character description(s) of the 12 still says "disciple". That is the source we have, and that is the one we are using to support the use of disciple. Everything else presented that is wholly unrelated to the show, the article subject, is off-topic. The show is what we are writing about, not theology or apologetics. I hope this further explanation helps you better understand. Thank you, A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 18:56, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"The very last chapter of the Book of Matthew" is not the first reference in that book to Jesus sending out apostles. The beginning of Matthew 10 describes Jesus sending out his twelve disciples, and names them:

And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; ³Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; ⁴Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
— Matthew 10:1-5

All three synoptic gospels are alike in this - see Luke 6:12–16 and   Mark 3:13–19. This is depicted in the third season of The Chosen and that is appropriately described in our article using "apostles". NebY (talk) 16:52, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That would be
WP:SYNTH. ButlerBlog (talk) 17:44, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
@NebY: Again, they were not, and could not be, considered apostles until AFTER they were done being under the tutelage of Jesus, their Rabbi. In order to understand the dynamics, one has to understand the relationship between a Rabbi and their student(s). Christianity isn't the only religious belief system that uses the word "disciple". It has been used in Judaism for many millennia. Even into adulthood, Jewish males (and some females) were, in Jesus' day, called disciples if they were studying under a rabbi and spending years of dedicated time to learning in order to become rabbinic teachers. In the New Testament, it's apparent from the purpose of Jesus' training of the 12, they were being apprenticed to be rabbinic teachers. Once their time of intense study, internship, and learning was completed, the student (the disciple) became a rabbinic teacher themselves, but only after their rabbi formally released them from their disciple-status. That is exactly what the Great Commission is: Jesus releasing His 11 students (not 12 because Judas had not yet been replaced) to go out and be apostles (i.e., rabbinic teachers to the world). Remember, Jesus and the disciples/apostles were not "Christians", they were Jewish men who adhered not just to the Law but also to tradition. There was a method to how things were done and they stuck with it (except for the new things God was doing via Jesus' Messianic ministry, which was definitely not Jewish- and Law-traditional). When the disciples went out two-by-two, they were in an internship phase of their training and learning. When Jesus died, rose from the grave, and appeared to the disciples, He was soon to ascend into heaven, and not return to earth until the end of the age. He needed emissaries ("apostles"), Rabbinic teachers, to go out and be His ambassadors for Him and His Gospel. We see the "end of the age" reference in Matthew 28:20. This is Jesus telling the disciples He needed them to teach the world about Him, and so He was preparing them to become apostles (Rabbinic teachers) when He left them and the earth, until He returns at "the end of the age". The end of the age being the Millennium. He gave them that waypoint, because when He returned/returns, there will be no more need for His emissaries (apostles), as His 1000 year reign will commence, the time when He will reign for 1000 years over Israel and the world.
This is common knowledge and theology within Christendom, especially evangelical Christianity. Keep in mind that the creator and director of The Chosen, as well as several of his development advisors for the show, are also evangelical Christians. It makes sense that their approach to how they refer to the 12 would follow that theology. And they continually refer to the 12 as "disciples". Not just in the scripts, but also in interviews and the roundtables that can be watched at the end of the episodes. They were referred to as "disciples" at ChosenCon in Dallas, TX back in October, too. But most importantly, that's how they are referred to in the scripts and in the official cast list at the Angel Studios webpage. It doesn't matter what you and I know or believe theologically, what conclusions we come to based on research. What we try to piece together to prove "disciples" or "apostles" is one more correct than the other (ButlerBlog is right, what you produced above is
WP:SYNTH
, and we can't use it as a support for inclusion in the article).
The source for "disciple" is solid and it's what we have to go with BECAUSE we are writing about the show, not theology. Again, I hope this explanation helps you better understand why we are sticking with "disciple" rather than going back to "apostle". A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 04:33, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you accept that
  • Matthew 10:1-5 describes Jesus sending out twelve disciples and calls them apostles (KJV: Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; Gr: Τῶν δὲ δώδεκα ἀποστόλων τὰ ὀνόματά ἐστιν ταῦτα)
  • Luke 6:12-16 describes Jesus sending out twelve disciples and Jesus calling them apostles (KJV: whom he also named apostles; Gr: καὶ ἀποστόλους ὠνόμασεν)?
NebY (talk) 12:15, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I concur with @NebY. Radiant Fellow (talk) 12:16, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@
editorial synthesis. You are an experienced editor and should know the difference. ButlerBlog (talk) 16:00, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Yes, we have to go with what is explicitly depicted in the show and not to be close-minded. Radiant Fellow (talk) 12:16, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's the truth within the show, and I agree. Radiant Fellow (talk) 12:15, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I concur. Radiant Fellow (talk) 12:13, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Folks, we have to go with the sources, not our own research, not our own religious and theological beliefs, not with what we think we see in the storyline. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and encyclopedias are about facts, not feelings.

Two reliable sources that we have for using disciples rather than apostles is the script and the official cast/character list. That's what we have to go with. Everything else mentioned above is outside the realm of sourcing per Wikipedia guidelines for this particular article. It truly doesn't matter what the Bible tells us for writing and improving upon this article. Dallas Jenkins himself has said repeatedly in interviews (both video and print) that 95% of the show isn't directly from the Bible.[7] But please remember, this article is about the show, not theology. It's not a Biblical Lexicon or Vine's Concordance and Dictionary or even a theological commentary. We have to remember that when writing good articles here, there is no room or reason for

WP:OR
.

While it does frustrate me any seasoned editor would concur with support for an argument that flies directly in the face of accepted and long standing policy on how to write a Wikipedia article and how not to do it, I do understand the desire to "correct" the record. To correct what looks wrong and what we think we know to be right. BUT, if we do that, we have strayed from the topic at hand, and that is making the article all about the article subject. In this case, the article subject is a television program in the category of historical drama. A historical drama that, from the mouth of the creator/director/co-writer, is 95% not found in the Bible. If arguments for content inclusion are based on accepted hermeneutics or a personal interpretation of Scripture, that's taking the article the wrong direction.

The Chosen is a TV program. It's not a Bible documentary. And we must stick with the sources that relate directly to the show itself. Anything outside that doesn't belong in the article. There's just no other way to approach this particular subject. A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 15:24, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One morning, after having spent the entire night on a mountain praying with God the Father, Jesus called His disciples together. He selected 12 of them, and named them apostles in His service (Luke 6:12-13). The word ‘apostle’ comes from the Greek term ἀπόστολος (apóstolos), which means “messenger” or “delegate” — a title that would take on even more special significance following the Jesus' death and resurrection, when the responsibility for sharing the Gospel would fall to the Apostles themselves.
— Angel Studios, January 3, 2023[8]

NebY (talk) 15:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Episode 2, Two by Two: Jesus is a problem for the Romans. With pilgrims from everywhere setting up a tent city at the gates of Capernaum to see Jesus, tensions rise. Jesus officially sends the twelve apostles on an exciting but dangerous mission, causing Little James to ask why he hasn’t been healed.
— Angel Studios[9]

NebY (talk) 15:59, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why didn't you just start with this in the first place? ButlerBlog (talk) 16:01, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ask rather why Alaska4Me2 started this discussion with such claims and persisted. I thought they might let go of them if I explained that their claims - not taken from The Chosen - such as "In fact, there was no such thing AS an apostle in Christendom until after the events of the Book of Acts took place" were not in accordance with the gospels; I did not imagine that it would be necessary to delve so deep. NebY (talk) 16:09, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In my reading of the discussion, it appears that your primary concern was that she capitualate on what was not in accordance with the gospels. To be very frank, with regards to this article, that is irrelevant. And from what she said at in her first response to you (But since this is a TV show article not a New Testament Bible or theology article, we have to go with with the reliable sources say), I'd say that she does understand the difference. If your concern is what is correct from an exegetical perspective, have that discussion elsewhere where it is relevant. ButlerBlog (talk) 16:54, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Should have also added - I mentioned below that I was out of this discussion from here on - and after this, I stand by that. If anything more needs to be said about me or other editors specifically, bring it to my/their talk page. But as far as article content discussion here, I'm out. ButlerBlog (talk) 16:56, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see you wish to draw this discussion to a close. It might be helpful in documenting consensus if you stated whether or not you agree that the term "apostles" is appropriate - perhaps on the basis of common parlance, or gospels, or Angel Studios' website, or the words spoken in that episode, as you wish. NebY (talk) 17:01, 5 January 2024 (UTC) (Written before I saw your post above.) NebY (talk) 17:06, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, but this really is the last one ;-) I'd accept support
editorial synthesis. ButlerBlog (talk) 19:07, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Thank you. I referred to the gospels to rebut the argument that they could not have been apostles, and to our articles to provide background on common parlance, but more specifically we do have Angel Studios referring to them as apostles and the words used in the show itself. "Enough! or Too much." NebY (talk) 20:42, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, @Butlerblog and @NebY. Radiant Fellow (talk) 01:57, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Link to Angel Studios' official cast/character list for The Chosen: [10]
"The Chosen is the first-ever multi-season show about the ministry and life of Jesus. Presented by an exceptionally talented cast–and written with grit, life, and real emotion–this series allows audiences to understand Jesus and His disciples on a deeper level than ever before."
"Simon ... is rescued by Jesus and becomes one of His most loyal disciples. ."
"Matthew ... one of the twelve disciples of Jesus"
"Andrew ... one of His twelve disciples."
"John ... a former Capernaum fisherman-turned-disciple of Jesus."
"Big James ... one of Jesus’ twelve disciples."
"Thaddeus is ... one of Jesus’ twelve disciples."
"Little James ... One of Jesus’ twelve disciples."
"Thomas... We first meet Thomas at a wedding feast attended by Jesus and His disciples...was called to become one of His twelve disciples."
"Philip ... is one of Jesus’ twelve disciples."
"Nathanael is ... one of Jesus’ twelve disciples."
"Simon Z is ... one of the twelve disciples of Jesus."
"Ramah ... We first meet Ramah at a wedding feast attended by Jesus and His disciples."
"Judas Iscariot ... becomes one of the twelve disciples of Jesus."
"Lazarus is ... close with Mary and the other disciples."
"Melech ... Jesus and His disciples meet Melech and his family".
"Leander ... supports Jesus and His disciples".
A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 16:06, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But I have chosen you twelve as my apostles.
— The Chosen, Season 3, Episode 2, 00:36:40[11]

NebY (talk) 16:06, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At this point, we're just
WP:BLUDGEONING. Unless there is something actually new to add, then this discussion needs to close. And sometimes the consensus is "no consensus". If someone has something new, add it. Otherwise, I'd respectfully request that all editors currently involved (myself included) self-police and end this discussion. I'm involved, so it's not closeable by me, nor any other involved editor, so this is an informal request. If someone wants to continue beyond what we have here, then open an RfC or seek dispute resolution more formally - I'd support an RfC and participate if notified - but I don't see anything more that could be said that hasn't already been stated several different ways. ButlerBlog (talk) 16:26, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
@Butlerblog: can you please clarify what you mean by "I'd accept either"? This is a collaborative effort, without one person being the "decider", correct? Maybe I'm reading into your comment, but to me, on the surface, it looks like you plan to gatekeep. But, I'm wrong about that, yes? A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 19:30, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes; @NebY asked for my position, I answered. ButlerBlog (talk) 14:51, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Update: In light of where this went, "I'd support either" may have been a better word choice to convey intent - in my mind the same thing, obviously not for everyone, though. I have struck and replaced with notation in the original above as well. ButlerBlog (talk) 17:35, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Corrections needed

Some important corrections are needed for the benefit of accuracy.

The disciples: "Apostle", when mentioned in the cast list character descriptions, needs to be changed to "disciple". Numerous cast lists and interviews online refer to those characters as "disciples", never "apostles". In the show's roundtables, the 12 are always referred to as disciples, never apostles. For a reliable source to support "disciple", please see the link below to Angel Studios. This verifies via the official cast list that none of the original 12 are listed as "apostle", rather, as "disciple".

Little James: The character of Little James is listed in the article's cast list character description as a "member" of the Jerusalem 288. In episode 6 of season 1, an exchange between Simon and Little James has the latter telling the former that he met Jesus while he was on the road to Jerusalem, on his way to join "the 288", aka, the Jerusalem Temple Choir. He had not become a member of the choir but was a recruit or prospective member. This is also verified at the Angel Studios link provided below.

The following link is to the show's cast list at Angel Studios, the media company and film distribution studio that distributed The Chosen beginning in 2017. [12]

Thank you, A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 21:58, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cast list (redux)

Considering the recent editing history, as well as not so recent, the cast list has been a constant source of article instability, and that instability has twice now contributed to GA status fail. Some of the past issues were due to disagreements over formats, as the initial building of the cast was not as clearcut within the scope of our

fancruft
constantly creeping in.

To address this issue head on, I have added a List of The Chosen characters list article. This isn't considered a formal split, as the main article still contains the main cast (see more below), but it has the benefit of giving some room for expansion that wouldn't be appropriate in the main article due to size. I believe the cast size and complexity also warrants this.

Keep in mind that while there is no specific "one right way" to display this type of information, there are likewise many incorrect ways to do it as well. While expansion of the content on the list article is encouraged, it also needs to remain "encyclopedic" in nature and not simply "fancruft". No trivia, and keep the minutiae to a minimum.

What really needs to happen on the list article at this point is expansion of other characters that were omitted from the original article due to size/complexity reasons (see past discussions: [13][14][15]). Now that there is a list article, these recurring and guest characters are more approrpriate to list - in fact, encouraged. Make sure it makes sense to list, however; no fancruft applies. Also, make sure you are famililar with

MOS:TVCAST ButlerBlog (talk) 16:17, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

Why the sermon, the lecture, the warnings, the condescension, the instruction? Why not just say "Here's a new article, let's work on it together", and see what happens? A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 17:21, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, just wow. You really always read things that aren't ever there, don't you? I'm simply at a loss at this point. I quite literally just withdrew my request that your article block be extended to the talk page.[16] I'm already regretting that decision. ButlerBlog (talk) 17:31, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please see my response to your warning and comments here at my talk page.[17] The threats from you and the attempts to block me from editing really need to stop. You lectured me on good faith, and then followed up with all of the above. It's just doesn't seem to be in the spirit of collaboration and working with others in editing Wikipedia. I just want to help grow the articles on The Chosen and make them helpful to readers. That's it, that's my motivation. Nothing more. A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 17:47, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, for starters, you seem to think that the above was directed at you, which it's not. It's directed in general (since, I don't know if you've noticed, but there are a lot of editors who contribute) in order to point out existing MOS. Past editing history in general has shown that we get a lot of inexperienced editors who don't know (or care) that there's an existing MOS and that we are an encyclopedia, not a fan site. The guidance is intentional for that purpose. Whether that applies to you personally or not depends on you. I just want to help grow the articles on The Chosen and make them helpful to readers - if you want to do that, then follow existing guidelines and we'll get along fine. ButlerBlog (talk) 17:57, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Description

"The chosen" actually refers to those chosen by Jesus to follow Him. The description in the info box states the show is based on the life of Jesus. Unless that is the description given by Dallas Jenkins, I think we need to make a correction and for it to read that the show is based on the Biblical Gospel books or Biblical Gospel. Also, the description of the show in the opening paragraphs reads awkwardly to me. Any input here would be good. Thanks in advance. A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 06:05, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That description comes from the main sources used in the article (which includes interview material from Jenkins), including NYT, WSJ, and the Atlantic - they all say that. NYT leads with "a TV series about the life of Jesus". However, based on the {{Infobox television}} docs, it's also supportable to just remove it, since that's not exactly the intent of the parameter. It should either say what sources say (which is what it is now), or be removed. Since it now appears that the pending GA review will finally be picked up during the March backlog drive, please hold off on making any major changes. ButlerBlog (talk) 07:12, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dallas has given many, many interviews about the show. There are roundtable discussions about the show and episodes which are livestreamed and added to the DVDs, as well. He has said numerous times that the show is not just about the life of Jesus. Since you brought up GAR, and you are at the forefront of the GA push for this article, how accepting will you be of changes to the article content, prose, and so on? (beyond updates regarding releases and such as the show continues over the next 3-4 years) And as things are currently, I see several places where the prose is awkward, badly written. Wouldn't you want to improve upon such things now BEFORE the actual review commences? Also, based on discussions and the number of edits I've made in the last three months, you know that I have a strong interest in improving the articles on The Chosen, why would you not want to include me in improving the article? Did you know that there are two Chosen specials that aren't included in this article but should be? It's things like that which I think you and I can work together on. It seems to me you would rather be solo on the article rather than a collaborator. Why not put our heads and time together and collaborate? A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 15:20, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd support just removing the |based_on= param from the infobox because as I noted, what that param is intended for doesn't really fit this instance.
As far as the GA nom, I'm just asking you to hold off until the current GA review process is complete. The next step after GA would be working on it to get it to A-class and eventually
WP:FA. To be honest, your unfamiliarity with the assessment and review process was part of the previous failure. I am not saying that was the reason - that was more the result of the inexperience of a reviewer who was in over her head, too new to be doing GA reviews - but it was a contributing factor. And this didn't help, either. The only other explanation would be intentionally sabotaging the process, and I truly do not believe you would do that. I do believe you want to make it better because you keep saying this is an article and topic you care about. If that's true, then it would be the most helpful for the article and its future for you to be patient. There will be plenty of opportunity to work on it more from here. ButlerBlog (talk) 16:09, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
"To be honest, your unfamiliarity with the assessment and review process was part of the previous failure." No it wasn't. Besides, you pulled the nomination, didn't you? It wouldn't have passed GA anyway, not at that time. The writing was not great then and still isn't. There are still errors in it and the article is missing information. A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 03:24, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]


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