Talk:Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a

requested move

. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. After much-extended time for discussion, there is no consensus for a move at this time. BD2412 T 15:57, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - "Over" is a functional word, and is capitalized in the film's actual title, as well as the actual title of the book. ([3] see "Literary" and "History:") Our MoS does not override the real-world titles of things. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:15, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. The manual of style is clear that prepositions of 4 letters or less are not capitalized in titles. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:02, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• (1) The Manual of Style is not mandatory. (2) The actual, real-life titles of the film and the book (which I have right here) use the capital "O". Our article is about that actual real-life film. Following the MoS is fine when it comes to article titles which we're created ourselves, but not when they are about real-life things. Then, they should use the actual title, not our bastardization of it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:22, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• New York Times: [4]
• Variety: [5]
• The Hollywood Reporter": [6]
• AFI Catalog: [7] see "Literary" and "History:"
• TCM: [8]
• IMDB: [9]
• AllMovie: [10]
• Rotten Tomatoes: [11]
• International Motion Picture Almanac (1951): [12]
• UC Berkeley Library: [13]

TK Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:46, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The MoS is usually quite strictly enforced in this area of short prepositions not being capitalized in titles of works. And what's really the point of having the MoS say not to capitalize short prepositions if we are not going to follow it? Rreagan007 (talk) 01:36, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Style guidance is excellent when the choice is arbitrary, but the first rule is to follow sources. SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:40, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support: We should follow our own
  MOS:5LETTER – and "over" is only 4 letters. This is not a matter of the title – just its capitalization styling. The "actual, real-life title" is the same and I am not aware of a concept of a "functional word" as part of English grammar or orthography. Indeed, functional word is a red link. The poster art has THIRTY SECONDS OVER TOKYO, which is another red link and rightly so. Wikipedia generally prefers lowercase. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:00, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Support:
  Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Titles#Capital letters addresses this specific case: In titles (including subtitles, if any) of English-language works (books, poems, songs, etc.), every word except for definite and indefinite articles, short coordinating conjunctions, and short prepositions is capitalized. "Short prepositions" are later defined in the same section as those having four letters or fewer. But I'm not convinced that the title is universally capitalized outside of Wikipedia anyway. For the book at least, the Open Library lists six editions, none of which capitalize "over" in the title. Rublov (talk) 18:20, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  Interesting. Directory sources are not good sources, but the titling of the book is an important consideration. Why is there no article Thirty Seconds over Tokyo (book) or Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo (book)? SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:45, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per Beyond My Ken. The idea that our MOS should "overrule" sourcing has always stuck me as completely inexplicable. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:20, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per nomination, Rreagan007, BarrelProof and Rublov. MOS takes precedence over orthographic inconsistencies found in the wild. In 2013, a lengthy uppercase/lowercase discussion {at Talk:A Boy Was Born#Requested move} favored MOS. Uppercase "O" continues to be widely used, however — Holly Slept Over, Boys Over Flowers, Reign Over Me, the various entries under Crossing Over (disambiguation), Game Over (disambiguation), Get Over It (disambiguation) or Starting Over (disambiguation), etc and discrepancies continue to be pointed out, such as at Talk:One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (film)#Title capitalization. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:45, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose While our manual of style provides guidance for format and capitalization, our guidelines also clearly us to use titling as used in an overwhelming majority of reliable sources. That absolutely does not mean we need to always use the "correct" or official one -- and in fact it often means we do not, which is where our style guide can be very helpful. But in cases where both the correct title and usage in reliable sources are aligned, it undermines our credibility to choose to be inconsistent.--Yaksar (let's chat) 22:33, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per
  MOS:CT. Darkday (talk) 09:11, 13 June 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Comment: I strongly dislike the idea of the MOS overriding the actual work's format, but it does say that it takes precedence in these cases. See here:

I personally think this provision should be removed and the current title kept, but current policy does seem to favor moving the article. 3 kids in a trenchcoat (talk) 02:29, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:CAPS guideline. Rublov (talk) 12:06, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

• Oppose per
  WP:COMMONNAME - this ngram shows that capitalizing "Over" is more common, even if this trend is waning.  Mysterymanblue  21:23, 21 June 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Oppose. Too many sources capitalise “Over” when not using all caps styling, eg [14]. MOS is good, but revisionism is more bad, and the four letter proposition rule needs some flexibility, don’t make every little arbitrary guideline an iron rule. SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:46, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a

requested move

. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.