Talk:Vincent van Gogh/Archive 7

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This article quite clearly states that Van Gogh was shot in the chest. The separate article on his death says he was shot in the abdomen. The two articles also discuss the trajectory of the bullet in contradictory ways-- down ward in the abdomen vs. striking a rib. Is one article just wrong? Was he shot twice? Is there uncertainty in the historical record? I do not have the sources to adjudicate this discrepancy, but an editor with the requisite sources and interest should address the issue and make necessary edits to one or both articles. MayerG (talk) 12:41, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Well starting to look first at what we have, the very first source used in the lead section here (which is only a newspaper report of the 2019 gun auction anyway) doesn't seem to say anything about the location of the wound(s)? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:26, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Van Gogh was only shot once, and I think the discrepancy in language has to do more with the conflation of "abdomen," "chest," and even "stomach" ("fatal stomach wound" is used in the Death of Vincent van Gogh article) and is due to translation, conflicting understandings of anatomy, and/or imprecision in language use. The controversy section [1] primarily relies on the Naifeh and Smith book. In the Appendix, Naifeh and Smith use "upper abdomen" to locate the gunshot wound, and they separately cite Adeline Ravoux's 1960s account of van Gogh's death which includes, presumably in translation, ""bottom of the chest."" Continuing to look at what we have, the article from The Guardian [2] calls the Naifeh and Smith theory of manslaughter a "bizarre claim." Whether or not subsequent representations or interpretations of the Naifeh and Smith book employ "chest," theirs is not a theory which necessitates representation in this article. Perhaps the Death article could be improved by clarification. Hexcodes (talk) 22:08, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

One bullet, yes? So what do the original French sources have for the location? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:13, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

It was certainly one bullet, and am inclined to think the differences in the sources is down to "discrepancy in language", per Hexcodes. Its about two years since I read these sources (still have all the books but am time pressed!), so put this open to informed suggestion here. Ceoil (talk) 22:51, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Ceoil, I would appreciate any leads on original French sources. I'm still looking for Ravoux's eyewitness account in French. Hexcodes (talk) 19:24, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

A guess just from a medical point of view is that the abdomen seems logical, if van Gogh was shot in the chest walking back to his lodging would have been a bit more Gauguinish. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:09, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

That auction story from Le Figaro does mention the date and place, but it doesn't give any clue to body location. And there's not a huge controversy about the fact he shot himself and the exact wound location anyway. The date and the place are not disputed. So I'm really not sure why we have any source, but especially that one, in the lead section. Maybe it should be removed or at least re-located? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:18, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

There is also a detailed description of the events at the Auberge Ravoux article. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:24, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

And the source at that article (in a malformed citation) is from a contemporary report in the local newspaper L'Écho-Le Régional which is reproduced lower down in this image. Ideally that should have a translation at the upload page? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:41, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Doesn't have a translation there, I don't read French, does anyone have a few minutes to translate? Thanks in advance. That the bullet hit a rib and ricocheted down into the stomach accounts for both options - van Gogh did shoot into his chest but the bullet didn't go very far before bouncing through his body downwards. Imagine if he had given himself 10 or 50 more years to paint, like Monet, what amazing avenues he would have taken visual art (when the fame and money started rolling in the travel he would have done to paint the early 20th century, and then maybe finding his own "Water Lilly pond" and planting himself there). Randy Kryn (talk) 04:18, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

I have now requested a translation here. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:53, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

I didn't see any request for a translation in the link you provided. — MiguelMunoz (talk) 01:30, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

And it says "...at nine, he came back with a smile on his face and completely calm, even though his stomach had been punctured by a gunshot. Mr. Van Gogh had attempted suicide." Martinevans123 (talk) 15:41, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

This primary source is useful. I vote abdomen over chest per the translation of the local paper as well as over stomach as stomach is an internal organ (Randy Kryn, would you agree?). With regard to what could have been, imagine if van Gogh had gotten to see his impact on the Fauves. Hexcodes (talk) 02:35, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

He would have run circles around the Fauves (literally, as they were painting). From the several pages it seems that the shot was into the chest, hit a rib, and bounced around the abdomen. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:10, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

This is La Danse, wherein each dancer is a van Gogh clone and Matisse is painting from inside the circle. Hexcodes (talk) 05:09, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I'd want to see a comparison of the scholarly sources. I am assuming the anonymous newspaper reporter was giving a second-hand account of what the doctors and/or other witnesses had said, rather than his own eye-witness testimony. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:25, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

I would prefer abdomen over chest, as that's drawn from a specific account, which mentions that stomach. However, given the ambiguity, we may want to just say torso, and mention that it's not clear. Or we could say chest or abdomen. But we should probably consult a translator before we decide. — MiguelMunoz (talk) 01:30, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

I removed the auction story. Once we reach a consensus here, a different citation can be used for the lead. Hexcodes (talk) 02:40, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:25, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Why does the article state unequivocally that Van Gogh committed suicide. There is ample reason to believe he was shot by one of the boys in the field. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.45.87.134 (talk) 00:27, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

What is his address? 2.25.70.61 (talk) 15:47, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

He moved around a lot. You might want to read The Yellow House. 15:50, 31 January 2023 (UTC) Graham Beards (talk) 15:50, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

That's no excuse. Lincoln moved around a lot but we've still got his Gettysburg Address. EEng 02:44, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Why does the article contain no mention of the theory that Van Gogh's death was not by suicide? It was advanced in Naifeh and Smith's prominent biography, which is cited in the article for other things. Was there a consensus that it is not even worth mentioning? Maurice Magnus (talk) 02:03, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Because its a very recent (ie last 20 years) theory that has often been debunked. The talk archives have a lot on it. Ceoil (talk) 03:11, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Ps, i'm not dissing your bringing this up; it a valid question, but unless there is more substantial info since the last discussion, then hopefully most of the counter arguments are in the archives. Ceoil (talk) 03:15, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Here is the last one [3]. Ceoil (talk) 03:17, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

At the top, it says "In this Dutch name, the surname is Van Gogh, not Gogh."
This is wrong. His surname is "van Gogh". Not "Van Gogh" 155.4.221.27 (talk) 18:47, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

 Done small jars tc 10:33, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

This edit request to Vincent van Gogh has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please modify this short description:

{{Short description|Dutch painter (1853–1890)}} 112.205.163.46 (talk) 09:52, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

 Done small jars tc 11:31, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

I have Ménière’s disease myself and I’ve been researching it a lot and have found several articles (some from the 90’s and early 00’s) discussing menieres as a diagnosis for Van Gogh. [4]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-07-25-mn-1005-story.html 2603:8001:B101:9140:13F:AC16:926F:5AEA (talk) 20:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

There's a bit of information in the opening paragraphs of this article that, while persistent in the narrative of his life in pop culture, there is substantial, interdisplenary scholarship written that offers a more factual account of the events, rather than one sensationalized for dramatic narratives' sake.

Given the emotionally-charged nature of parts of van Gogh's biography in general, I think it would be worth adding citations for some of these details, so that the curious user can more easily access the sources of these details. Corvus.pica.pica (talk) 00:27, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

@

MOS:CITELEAD. If you feel that some content absolutely needs to be sourced in the lede, you'd have to get consensus from other editors that are interested in the article. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝

 ) 00:36, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

We don't really need all that formality. If there's something in the lead that's likely to raise questions in the minds of some fraction of readers, there's no harm adding a cite there (and it's easy to do since, by definition, the cites must already exist lower down in the article). EEng 01:28, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Corvus.pica.pica That is a lot of descriptive wording to get your question across. Just what content exactly are you questioning? It would help this conversation stay on track, rather than veering off into a debate about whether leads should have citations or not. Please present what is so: "emotional-charged", "sensationalized" for "dramatic narratives' sake" here so we can better understand if it needs citing or not. Thanks. On a side note, most leads do not have citing because they are an "accessible overview" of the content found within the article; which is cited with sources. Maineartists (talk) 01:57, 6 July 2023 (UTC)