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The result was to merge. This discussion has been open for almost a year and I think we've had all the input we're going to get from anyone on it.
If the only difference is the title and artwork, there is no reason Beatlemania can’t be mentioned on this article (with, of course, appropriate information such as catalog numbers and areas & dates of release and so forth). It practically doesn't count as a separate album.
Oppose - Beatlemania! With The Beatles was released to an entirely different market; it is notable as a Beatles album released outside the UK before the Beatles became international stars. As a practical matter, we can't clutter this article with mentions of other variations of With The Beatles throughout the world. Radiopathy•talk•
From what I can see, though, there's not much to even use. Location, date, name, artwork difference and catalog information is really all I can see. Other than that, there's nothing that can be said about it that can't be said here and, therefore, no need for a separate article.
I think so. I think both of those albums stand enough on their own, while Beatlemania! With the Beatles is just a slightly adjusted version of With the Beatles. — Status (talk · contribs) 16:37, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I have to agree. It's basically the same album, just slightly adjusted to fit in a different market. The track listing and certification can easily be merged with this article. — Status (talk · contribs) 16:35, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, we'd have to merge all of the albums that were "slightly adjusted" for their markets into the UK Beatles album articles - not very practical. Radiopathy•talk• 23:46, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A merge need not mean reiterating track listings; it can also just mean a small sentence stating such a release occurred. Which, in my opinion, is really all they need.
It's a bad idea overall and smacks of censorship, or nationalism, or something not quite right. Just leave it. Radiopathy•talk• 12:19, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
How, if I may ask, does this promote censorship and/or nationalism? I am not speaking from any such point of view. For reference, I looked at the contents of the box set,
Once again - hopefully more to the point this time: This is not the same album that was released in the UK. The title is not the same, and neither is the cover artwork. They may be similar to one another, but they are clearly not the same album.
This album is notable for having been the first Beatles album released outside the UK; it pre-dates the release of Introducing... The Beatles in the US by nearly two months.
You are grasping at straws to try to push your deletionist agenda here; notability and historical significance still trump your arguments. Time to
I should point out, no one is disputing that it's notable. That is emphatically not the point here. The question I am asking is, does it serve readers or benefit the encyclopedia at all to have a separate article on the subject when this one is mostly based on another? There are many reasons to keep and many reasons to delete (and, just to avoid the "deletionist agenda" comment, I note I am not trying to delete anything), but if the reasons for not keeping, whether in quantity or quality, outweigh those for keeping it, guess what's gonna happen?
Support. Actually, I don't even know if there is really something worth merging. The cover art? It may be different, but according to
Beatlemania! With the Beatles, and one of them is a review of the UK edition, already listed here. Notability was not asserted here. Nor is it inherited. If Beatlemania! With the Beatles is notable for being the first non-UK Beatles, then let this be proved with sources. You see, the article itself justifies its own merging by claiming things like "The recording is exactly the same as [...] With The Beatles, except for additional text being applied to the album's cover and the fact that this release was only available in monaural." Victão LopesFala! 19:15, 2 April 2014 (UTC)[reply
]
Based on that, we could easily start with this sentence: "It was the first Beatles album to be released outside of the UK; it was released in Canada in mono as Beatlemania! With the Beatles." We could add more, of course, but this would be a good place to start, in my opinion.
Oppose Although the track listing is the same as With the Beatles, the album is not the same in title and release area. It is also one of the few Canadian only Beatles albums Beatleswhobeachboys (talk) 20:31, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Reluctant oppose. I wanted to support a merge, if it's the same record give or take a few seconds, but that would mean losing the cover art (according to Victão Lopes, above), a nice period variation and to me the main point of interest. Rothorpe (talk) 02:15, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Beatlemania! With the Beatles is the first North American Beatles album. Its notability and historical significance is therefore irrefutable. Merging it into the UK description would serve no purpose other than muting its status as first past the post on this side of the pond. The suggested merger box should therefore be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Burkeophile (talk • contribs) 11:58, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose You're entirely correct, LazyBastardGuy, it "implies"' nothing; rather the album IS essentially, irrefutably and notably the first Beatles album in North America. Were it to be amalgamated into the With the Beatles article, that historical fact would be muted. That's why some people above have their knickers in a twist. The butchered U.S. albums are just as equally not really separate albums as this renamed and re-serialed and re-artworked album. It would equally be a mistake to amalgamate those albums into their related albums descriptions. The simple fact is that the three initial Canadian Beatles albums were part of The Beatles reception historically. Go ahead and keep moving the goalposts, LazyBastardGuy, but reality will not change at my or your whim. Peace. [comment made by Burkeophile (talk·contribs)
(
Sliver: The Best of the Box
was released in Japan as Sliver: The Best of Nirvana +3, but that doesn't make the retitled Japanese release a separate album. Various singles get released with different tracklistings and cover art yet they don't receive separate articles no matter how notable they are in their various parts of the world; rather, they're all contained in one single article. It should go without saying, but I will nevertheless state it for the sake of those who may be tempted to respond in kind here: Baseless accusations and personal stakes in a particular subject hold no weight in discussions. So if you would like, please try again and tell me why the Canadian album is so different it's not just a modified release but its own album. While you're at it, would you mind filling out that article with more material that cannot and should not be included in this one?
I would also like to point out that your example is absolutely backwards - that the Capitol US albums are indeed individual albums, not mere reworkings of existing ones (even if they brought nothing new to the table). It seems I am not the one moving the goalposts here; you singlehandedly attempted to change what the criteria for a unique album release even are by decreeing that the Capitol US Beatles albums do not qualify as their own standalone albums. Just because I look out the window of a moving car and see a tree pass by does not mean the tree was the one moving.
Oppose You are assuming far too much and appear to be making a personal attack in an attempt to silence the irrefutable truth I have spoken. The diversions you are now trying to lure me into appear to be a further attempt to mute objective fact. I also fear that you have falsely accused me of making baseless personal attacks while accusing me of trying to "vote" twice. (In case you are unaware, this is not a vote, LazyBastardGuy). I had simply forgotten to sign in and fixed that after I had realised. LazyBastardGuy, Please Please Me was not released in Canada. An album that was only in monaural form, Beatlemania! With the Beatles was. It was followed by the LPs Twist and Shout and The Beatles Long Tall Sally. Unlike the later, butchered U.S. LP, Meet the Beatles, Beatlemania! With the Beatles did not remove any tracks from the record it was derived from. Nevertheless, it is, by virtue of its changed name, cover art and label, a unique release by the same standards that Meet the Beatles was. If Beatlemania! With the Beatles is to be amalgamated, then all out-of-UK releases need to be amalgamated with their parent albums, an unwieldy and pointless exercise. Through most of the 1980s, Beatlemania! With the Beatles remained in print (I bought it in its much later stereophonic release). It was never repackaged as plain-old With the Beatles. Canadians could not buy the EMI With the Beatles except as an expensive import (yes, it was available that way despite the presence of a domestic record with the same tracks). We also had the less-expensive option of buying the domestic Beatlemania! With the Beatles, but we then would have the Canadian, not British, record. Canada did not see the release of With the Beatles until the late 80s and then only on CD. Furthermore, this CD release was then only monaural. This collection of songs was not on an official digital stereo release until 2009. Beatlemania! With the Beatles was the first Beatles album in North America. Like it or not, it is part of The Beatles' reception history, as is the butchered Meet the Beatles, as are the Mexican MusArt LPs, which someone should add in their own entries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Burkeophile (talk • contribs) 23:49, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not disputing that it's part of any history. I'm disputing whether it needs its own article (and by the way, if it's not a vote, you can and probably should use indentations under previous posts and not keep putting Oppose at the beginning of your posts). That's all some nice history there, but is there any reason none of it can be included on this article and not the other? I apologize for suspecting sockpuppetry, and I should note I'm not trying to obfuscate any kind of fact - I'm wondering whether any of it can't be included on THIS article, and must go exclusively on the other. I am also wondering whether there would be enough such material that we could not simply include a section devoted to the release, and I argue that for several reasons:
Its audio content is identical to that of With the Beatles and would therefore have the same history as the audio content of With the Beatles
Its name is very similar to that of its parent (we could also include why the name was modified for overseas release)
And so is its artwork. The artwork could easily be included on the same page with perhaps some description of what makes it different.
Also, I did not accuse you of anything. I asked if you had intended to vote twice and make it appear as two separate people, in which case it WOULD be sockpuppetry. You may want to be careful in the future as you may run into trouble if you do it again. Please don't misquote me or put words in my mouth; that's not wikikosher.
I should also note that this discussion does not concern other Beatles articles; if I see it necessary I will open discussions for them along similar lines, but this one in particular struck me as waiting to happen. Other albums are dissimilar enough the best merger I could conceive of at this point would be all their own article, not merged with the articles for the albums to which they bear the closest resemblance (although again I do maintain that the differences could easily be explained in their own articles until such time as I see proof that a full unique article devoted to such a subject is necessary).
I maintain that you made a personal attack because you accused me of moving goalposts. Making false accusations is a personal attack; see
WP:PERSONAL
. If you want to say I'm moving the goalposts it's on you to prove how I did.
I also maintain that absolutely nothing you said has changed my opinion that Beatlemania! With the Beatles was little more than a repackaging of an existing album and should be treated as such, no matter how historically significant this repackaging was. I see no evidence that a wholly separate article is necessary. Anything you said that would be useful could be put on this article and would take up very little space.
Agree to disagree
You clearly are more deeply embedded in Wikipedia culture than I am. That, I must concede. The only goalposts I believe you were moving were those pertaining to notability, which I believe is the gold standard of Wikipedia articles, and, given that the other two Canadian LPs were also unique to Canada, it seems silly to deny article status to one while keeping it for the other two. Meet the Beatles is also only a repackaging. Yes, it adds "I Saw Her Standing There", cuts some tracks and adds some dreadful tinniness to the audio, but it is a repackaging also with a very similar name (arguably more similar than Beatlemania! With the Beatles). Indeed, there's a slippery slope you will slide down if you claim that adding/subtracting tracks makes Meet the Beatlesunique and Beatlemania! With the Beatles simply a repackaging (I think you're aware of this or you would have emphasized that). LazyBastardGuy, this has all been in good faith, and if you feel you have been personally attacked, I'm sorry for the way you feel. I did not attack you and have no feeling of animosity towards you. Peace.
Arbitrary break
I've responded to pretty much everyone since I opened this discussion, which I understand is
I see no policy/guideline-based reasons given by anyone who opposes the merge, whereas most of the supporters have given policy/guideline-based reasons which support a merge of these two articles. Based on the quality of arguments from both sides (or rather lack of quality of arguments from the opposing side), I would say these articles should be merged as proposed. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 16:40, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support. As to why, that has already been covered very well. The naysayers mainly claim that the Canadian album is "not the same album" -- which is blatantly false; it IS the same album: same 14 songs, same order! Is that just a "remarkable coincidence"? All "historical" points, the variant cover image, may all be included in the merged article. Go for it already! 67.186.19.151 (talk) 11:57, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Rock and Pop
Though they are sourced, Rock and Pop seem kind of redundant here, as the already listed Rock'N'Roll covers Rock, and Merseybeat covers both Pop and Rock. I think Rock'N'Roll and Merseybeat alone would cover the album's style perfectly without flooding the infobox. Poppermost2014 (talk) 13:49, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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