Template talk:Infobox chess opening

Ruy Lopez
7	7
6	6
5	5
4	4
3	3
2	2
1	1
Moves	1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5
ECO	C60–C99
Origin	Göttingen manuscript, 1490
Named after	Ruy López de Segura, Libro del Ajedrez, 1561
Parent	Open Game
Synonym(s)	Spanish Opening ; Spanish Game ; Spanish Torture [colloquial]

Najdorf Variation: 5...a6
7	7
6	6
5	5
4	4
3	3
2	2
1	1
Moves	1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6
Open Sicilian with 2...d6

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Ideas

Birth

How about adding in the template some elements on the birth of the opening, e.g. year of birth, game of birth, first player to play it, or things like that ? SyG 10:04, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree, would be nice to have a link to the
  stem game. Voorlandt 10:21, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  - A minor suggestion for discussion: how about changing "Birth" as the keyword on the left side of the visible template to "Origin"? To see my rationale, note that the phrase "birth of this chess opening", while understandable, is somewhat odd sounding. Thoughts? Baccyak4H (Yak!) 14:33, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - That is a good suggestion, but how do you distinguish between the origin of the opening and the origin of the name of the opening ? (although we somehow could have the same problem by Birth) SyG 14:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      - Yes I agree, i have changed the description now, but the tag is still the same. Voorlandt 15:01, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Parent

How about adding in the template the Parent of the opening ? For example the Ruy Lopez comes from the King pawn opening, the Dragon comes from the Sicilian, etc ? SyG 10:04, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Great idea! Voorlandt 10:21, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

- Overall I would say, go for it
  WP:BB! This is a draft template, so feel free to experiment. Voorlandt 10:21, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Statistics

How about adding in the template some statistics, like % of black wins, % of white wins, % of draws, % of use ? SyG 10:04, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Not sure about this, because this very much depends on the database. For instance the dutch wikipedia, does it with the simbase database, for instance [1] Voorlandt 10:21, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - I'm doubtful about it too, because it can change with time. Bubba73 (talk), 16:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The chessgames.com link only gives stats for C60, not C60-C99. This could cause confusion so I think we should link to the relevant Opening Explorer page, e.g. here. Now, all chessgames stats depend on its database, which isn't very large (~440 000 games), so it could be argued that we shouldn't have the link at all.
youngvalter 14:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
- I agree, the opening explorer is a much better link. I have changed the link for now, and see what others think about this. The database is not huge, but imho still large enough to be of interest. I tried to use chesslive.de (which has 3.5mil games) but the search button doesnt work on my end. Voorlandt 15:06, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - As good a site as chessgames.com is, I don't think we should rely too much on it. Other databases should be used as well, if available. Here is, for example, the GameKnot database. I don't know about the quality though but it does have a decent amount of games. I think judging the quality of the databases should be left to readers and we should just present some options. As a general comment to the template: it looks really good! Initially I didn't find it a very good idea but now that I see the implementation, well, it's strange no one thought about it before! :) —ZeroOne (talk / @) 19:37, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - Actually gameknot's database only includes games played on its server (see here).
      youngvalter 21:38, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply
      ]
      - Hmm, you are right. They do, however, allow you to show only the games where both parties have an ELO rating of 1900 or more. Although in that case the number of games in the database drops from 770,000 (ELO >1500) to 50,500. But that's something too, isn't it? —ZeroOne (talk / @) 02:24, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - I have used both sites now quite a bit. Chessgames.com is good because it contains a lot of historical and grandmaster games, Gameknot is good because it returns a better ECO code (i think). How about adding both of them? Did anyone manage to get chesslive.de to work? Also regarding the fen discussion: I don't mind either way, but having a link to either chessgames.com and gameknot gives you immediately the fen, one click away. Voorlandt 14:16, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      - Yes, Chesslive.de does work for me but it's troublesome as it is a Java-applet and I cannot see any way to directly link to a given opening. —ZeroOne (talk / @) 15:55, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(outdent) An idea similar in spirit to this might be to have the standard evaluation notations/glyphs (e.g., "+/=") as a field rather than actual game statistics, or in addition to a database link. The obvious problem is what source to use, as there may be different evaluations from different sources. I do know that this is in principle possible, as I have seen some computer opening books which have assigned glyphs to different ECO codes. One minor drawback may be that even with a consensus source, I would assume a significant majority (~90%?) would have "=", so one could argue it is not all that informative. Anyway, I hope it is clear from my participation here that I think this template is a great idea. :) Baccyak4H (Yak!) 15:45, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

FEN

How about adding the
FEN string of the position into the template? —ZeroOne (talk / @) 19:39, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
- I don't think that would really help much. Most of these positions are going to be close to the initial position. I don't foresee people wanting to take the FEN to paste into a program or anything. Bubba73 (talk), 21:54, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - I foresee people wanting to paste the FEN string into online services that are used to create diagrams, as in opposite to our 64 individual square images. For example, Chessgames.com kibitzing system automatically creates images of FEN strings. Maybe we could have a small "Show/Hide FEN" link with some javascript magic to do what it says? —ZeroOne (talk / @) 02:24, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - Well, there is already a diagram there. Which brings up another question - is there a Windows program that will generate the "chess diagram" info from a graphical interface? If not, I've been thinking about writing one. I'm getting tired of entering the chess diagrams manually. Bubba73 (talk), 02:40, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      - I believe this is what you are looking for: FEN2Wikipedia. It is even an online program. You enter a FEN string and it outputs a Wikipedia chess diagram. :) Most chess programs can copy a position into clipboard as a FEN string. —ZeroOne (talk / @) 03:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        I don't like entering FEN. What I had in mind is you see a board and put the pieces where you want them and can enter captions and it makes the WP "chess diagram" as text to paste into articles. If there isn't something like that, I'm thinking about writing one. Bubba73 (talk), 03:21, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        Yeah, but you can setup the position in your favorite chess program and then use its "Copy FEN to clipboard" (or similar) option, most chess programs have one. It's, like, five or six extra clicks and no extra key presses compared to a direct position-to-Wikipedia -program. But if you want to create a separate program then you are most welcome to do that. I hope you make it open source too, I might even be able to help. In fact I started doing a program like this using the Visual Basic Express Edition but was set back when I found out the thing no more had object arrays. Another setback was when the user interface completely lost some important element and I just couldn't get it back... —ZeroOne (talk / @) 23:54, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        That is too much of a round-about way, and it sounds like you can't put X, black dot, white dot, and the digits in that way. Bubba73 (talk), 01:03, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        Well, that's true, you cannot. Keep us updated with the status of your project then. :) —ZeroOne (talk / @) 12:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

AKA

We also need an AKA ("Also known as") field/list. E.g., the example "Ruy Lopez" is perhaps better known internationally as the "Spanish Game" or "Spanish Opening". Some openings or variations have several names. --Wfaxon 22:12, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, good idea. —ZeroOne (talk / @) 02:24, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - I agree. Bubba73 (talk), 02:40, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Too wide

I think the template is a bit too wide. I've put it into Ruy Lopez, Exchange Variation. Bubba73 (talk), 01:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried to fix this now, along with other layout issues (like the title not being centered). My apologies for the excessive editing, but I am new to templates and it is very much trial and error. Voorlandt 06:39, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Good work, I can see the improvements. Bubba73 (talk), 14:44, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pagename

One can use the {{PAGENAME}} template to save some space and time. Using this, the openingname in the template will always correspond with the title of the page. This would prevent the situation in for instance

Budapest Defence where the infobox has Budapest Gambit as main title. The reason why I didn't implement it in the template is that the example on the template page wouldn't look nice :) Any suggestions? Voorlandt 21:08, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply

]

Great one! I have changed the

Budapest Defence accordingly. SyG 08:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply

]

I don't think it's too bad if PAGENAME shows up in this template page. I have changed the template now to use PAGENAME but openingname will still override it if used. I also wrote usage instructions so that no one should be surprised when they see "Infobox chess opening" text in the box. —ZeroOne (talk / @) 00:08, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work!Voorlandt 08:04, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Use for subvariations on a main page

What are thoughts on using this template for diagrams deeper in articles about very prominent openings (Spanish, Sicilian, QGD, etc.), corresponding to the defining moves/position of a variation of the opening?. For example, there is a diagram showing the position of the Najdorf Sicilian. One could think of adding a diagram like this using the template at that point in the article.

Clearly this usage is one that could be overdone; this diagram takes up more space so it would not be desirable to use for every variation diagram in every article. I chose the Najdorf example to illustrate a very mainstream variation (it has its own article, for example) which would be a less controversial usage of the template.

Thoughts? Baccyak4H (Yak!) 14:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would assume any variation worth having its own Infobox would also be worth having its own article :-)

Still, I see no inconvenients to use this Infobox for subvariations. But I see no advantages either... Could you please explain what gains you would expect from this change ? SyG 20:39, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The advantages simply are that the infobox gives very convenient access to the links in its fields, especially the CB database. I could see this being a great way to actually keep the number of opening articles in check, while still having variation specific info available. In that sense I would see using more infoboxes than articles. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 03:03, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh OK, now I got it. Then that seems a good idea, especially as the Infobox has most of its fields optionnal, so using the Infobox makes it easier for anyone to add an information (e.g. first game) without caring for the templates. As you have noticed, the only issue remaining is the format, i.e. the Infobox shall not take too much space so that the article remains nice to read. Let's go ahead! SyG 07:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Great. I probably won't get started right away, but now at least the idea has been aired out. There is the one disadvantage of space with we both acknowledge, so starting slow is probably smart anyway. After some have been used in this way, it may be easier to assess how good an idea it really is, and refine how best to use in this way. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 16:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Use

Cool! Bubba has put the Template in use in

Budapest Defence

(sorry!!). It looks really great. Now how should we proceed to have a widespread use (assuming we wish one)? I first thought to list in this section all the places where this Template is used... but after some thoughts I remembered the "What links here" on the left is perfectly suited for that :-) So I would suggest several possibilities:

let Users use this template if they want, and don't push things (that sounds cool)
all of us start to pick up an opening randomly, and we put the template in it (that sounds coool)
get some sort of split of all (WHAT??) openings between volunteers and each volunteer puts the template in the openings that have been allocated to him (that sounds cooool)
other way to do (that sounds really coooool)

As you can read I am rather open-minded on this one ;-) SyG 18:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, looks nice to me too. But don't forget to leave out the |tright in the diagram (compare the layout of

Budapest Defence (NOK)). On the way of doing it, I think nr 2 is the way to go. Voorlandt 21:29, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply

]

Thanks for the tip, I changed the Budapest. This "tright" thing is a real trick for me, as I am so used to put diagrams on the right. By the way, now I think I may not try to put the Infobox in all the openings articles. I mean, what is the purpose of spending some time to carefully put a nice template in an opening article which is only three-sentences-long ? So I will implement it in the openings articles by class-order, starting from FA-class down to Start-class, but leaving the stubs to their own fate :-) SyG 20:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have started incorporating it as well, but in the spirit of what SyG noted have now begun to focus on the most prominent openings (after doing Bird's, Benko Gambit, Nimzowitch Defence, etc.). My idea is that they are most likely to stay on Wikipedia long-term. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 17:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]