User talk:Cbl62/Archive 2014

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DYK for Bill Adamaitis

On 13 August 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Bill Adamaitis, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Catholic University's Bill Adamaitis was hailed as the "hero of the Orange Bowl" after both catching and throwing touchdown passes in the 1936 game? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Bill Adamaitis. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:52, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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DYK for Cal Broughton

On 15 August 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Cal Broughton, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that baseball catcher Cal Broughton later became a police chief who captured a gang of train robbers after a gun fight in Wisconsin? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Cal Broughton. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:51, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Would you consider altering the hook line to add a little more? Nice job! 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:54, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

		The 1000 DYK Creation and Expansion Medal
		While playing the game, Cbl62, you have scored this monumental total of DYKs to brighten up the Main Page of our encyclopaedia, and you are hereby garlanded with the community's thanks and congratulations. You are the fourth monarch of the DYK world, and its first king! Moonraker (talk) 04:44, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Congratulations from me, too! --Rosiestep (talk) 13:09, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well-deserved.--

WP:WAWARD) 06:31, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply

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Hey, I saw you added a photo from what I assume is the GT yearbook. If so, do you have online access to the GT yearbook? I'm still looking for the name of his high school in Blacksburg, Virginia, his birthdate, and something that clearly states he earned an M.S. in civil engineering from GT in 1968. . . . Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:14, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, the 2014 NCAA Records Book is already available. See the footnote in the Breland article for the link. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:52, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Aargh. Just got done updating from 2000 > 2008 > 2012. Another round in order, I guess. Cbl62 (talk) 21:02, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I know. It's out early this year. I generally take a week and update all of the NCAA Records Book and Gators media guide footnotes on my watch list about a week into the fall CFB season. It's a pain because all of the footnote page refs need to be checked. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:29, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The url link in the Breland article is still connecting to the 2012 guide. Cbl62 (talk) 21:39, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Try it now. I was bouncing back and forth this morning, and apparently cut and pasted the older link. If you look at the address, the only difference is the /2014/ subfile in the address. This has been the pattern the NCAA has followed for the last four or five years, and it makes finding their new stuff extremely easy if you understand their document address system. The University of Florida uses a very similar web address system for its media guides; once you figure it out, you can go straight to the new publications rather the scrounging through a Google search or using he website search function. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:00, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cbl, how are you dealing with the problem of categorizing pre-1960 ends? As you know, prior to the advent of separate offensive and defensive squads, the end position effectively combined the positions of tight end, flanker, wide receiver, defensive end and outside linebacker. We do not currently have a separate category for "American football ends" -- perhaps we should. I was reminded of this problem while creating the Tinsley article, who was the epitome of an old-time end. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:15, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is an issue that I deal with often in writing about older football players. For the first 50 years of the game, there were only seven positions: quarterback, halfback, fullback, end, tackle, guard and center. The three tricky ones are end, tackle, and guard, as people always want to push those positions into the modern offensive or defensive variants. For the older players, there really should be categories for "American football ends," "American football guards," and "American football tackles." Cbl62 (talk) 18:21, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I just shoehorned Tinsley into the "tight end" and "defensive end" categories, but that's not quite right. I think you should create those categories for the old-timers, with an explanatory note on the category page that these cats are only supposed to apply to the pre-modern era, two-way players. The harder question is how to define the era . . . . Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:28, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I just contributed Phil Tinsley and a couple of 1928 Gators, Dale Van Sickel and Dutch Stanley, to your new category for American football ends. Looks like four of the first five were All-Americans. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:26, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'll also work on populating it. Cbl62 (talk) 23:31, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Clarence Gracey was pretty straightforward, so I added it. Here's what I found on Tinsley:

• U.S., Department of Veterans Affairs BIRLS Death File for Phil Tinsley, dob 16 Jan 1924, dod 17 Jul 1989, SSN XXX-XX-1166, enlistment date 1 Jul 1943, release date 18 Jun 1946.
• Social security death index for Phil R. Tinsley, SSN: xxx-xx-1166 (issued in Alabama before 1951), last residence 77478 Sugar Land, Fort Bend, Texas, USA, born 16 Jan 1924, died 17 Jul 1989.

That's probably your guy, but I thought you'd be in a better position to assess, so I didn't include it in the article. Cbl62 (talk) 01:30, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Good detective work from you, as always. Ol' Pete Gracey had a good run -- 90+ years old. Query: do we really want to include all of that personal data in the DOB/DOD footnote? I'm a little uncomfortable with that, even if he is deceased. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:37, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The one piece I did not include was the first part of the SSN. Once a person is deceased, the SSN death index releases the information, but I think it's prudent not to report the full SSN. Is there another part that you were concerned with? Cbl62 (talk) 02:12, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think I would cite the SSDI as the source via Ancestry.com, and leave it at that. I feel a little odd about posting home addresses or any part of a SSN. BTW, I was just starting to get attached to Pete and Phil. I kind of feel like I just lost a couple of uncles. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:24, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The reason I think that it's important to include some of the specific information is to provide a breadcrumb trail to show that you haven't inadvertently cited the records for someone with a similar name. That said, the SSN doesn't really add anything; what does help for verification purposes is information on DOB, DOD, last address, and state of issuance (sometimes included). As for your uncles, they are gone but, as of today, not forgotten! Cbl62 (talk) 02:40, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 16 August 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Eddie Moegle, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that halfback Eddie Moegle scored the first touchdown for Detroit in the first season of the NFL? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Eddie Moegle. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:41, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 16 August 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article June Krauser, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that swimmer June Krauser set 154 American records and 73 world records? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/June Krauser. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:42, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 19 August 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Joe Fitzgerald (American football), which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Joe Fitzgerald was the first player in NFL history to return an interception for a touchdown? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Joe Fitzgerald (American football). You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:02, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 20 August 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Hugh Lowery, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Hugh Lowery taught formation flying in World War I and later played in the National Football League's first season? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Hugh Lowery. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:56, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hey. We've got a little mystery to solve. After getting the basics on Ashel Day from the Georgia Tech media guide and the NCAA records book, I started rummaging through a Newspapers.com search. A search for "Ashel Day" turned up several 1930s and 1950s sports columns that recognized Day as the first Southerner who was a Walter Camp first-teamer -- a Big Deal at the time in 1918. Then I searched his nickname, "Bum Day," and lo and behold I got hits from the Atlanta Constitution in 1920 and 1921 for its All-Southern Conference team for Bum Day, center, but not at Georgia Tech, but the University of Georgia! A review of the UGA football media guide confirms the Bulldogs had an All-Southern center named Bum Day in 1920 and 1921. The nickname and position are just too much to be coincidence, especially in the short time span of 1918 to 1921 in same state. Any suggestions how to connect the two? John Heisman was the GT coach in 1918, but left after 1919. This has all of the elements of a Tech-UGA controversy, but I have yet to find anything that firmly connects the dots from Atlanta to Athens. Any ideas? Day's status as the first Southern first-team All-American means this may be worth chasing . . . . Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:38, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Old newspapers, yearbooks, alumni reports, etc., are likely the best sources. They may mention transferring, etc. Cbl62 (talk) 03:06, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've found a couple of newspaper articles from 1920 and 1921 that refer to Georgia's Bum Day as an "All-American"; Tech's Ashel Day in 1918 and UGA's Bum Day in 1920 and 1921 have to be the same guy. I'm still looking for the one that references him as a "former Tech player." Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:19, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I came here to thank Cbl62 for the Larry DiNardo birthday but I may able to shed some light. Please see the link from Tulane University digital Library. Here a quote “The University of Georgia and Georgia School of Technology are traditional rivals, \ et both boast something in common-"Bum" Day, one of the South's greatest centers.” Also from the 2007 GT media guide p. 148 list his nick name as “Bum”. And BTW thanks for the DOB for DiNardo 09er (talk) 14:01, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, 09er, the commentary in the Tulane game program is exactly the sort of connect-the-dots source I needed. Day is listed as "Ashel M. 'Bum' Day" (with several other variations) in the 2013 Georgia Tech media guide, but the 2013 Georgia media guide only lists him as "Bum Day." In my part of the world, a "bum day" was an archaic way of saying a "bad day," so the nickname was a play on words. I thought that it was too much to be coincidence that two different highly rated CFB centers would have similar names and play for in-state rivals in the space of four years, but I could not definitively connect the two. The 1935 Tulane vs. Georgia game program that you found definitively solves the mystery. There's still a good story to be told: why did Day leave Tech for its biggest rival, UGA? Did it have anything to do with John Heisman quitting as Tech's coach? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:19, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 21 August 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Dan Casey, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that in later life, baseball player Dan Casey claimed he was "Casey at the Bat"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Dan Casey. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Thanks from the Wiki and I for your contribution Victuallers (talk) 11:11, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 23 August 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Jumping Jack Jones, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that baseball pitcher, dentist, and voice trainer Jumping Jack Jones (pictured) leapt into the air before throwing, making him "the twirling marvel of his time"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Jumping Jack Jones. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:55, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 23 August 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Steamer Horning, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Steamer Horning was an All-American football player for Colgate and a two-time All-NFL player for Toledo? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Steamer Horning. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:41, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hey. As I work through all the newly created AA articles, I notice one thing that we are consistently ignoring: the complete CFB career years of these guys; more often than not, we're only listing their AA year, not their complete CFB careers. While I recognize we were trying to grind out basic stubs/starts as quickly as possible, we need to pull the Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Notre Dame and other media guides to better source and detail their histories -- we're going to find a bunch of All-Ivy honors, too (back when that was still a really Big Deal). We also need to double-check the CFHOF inductees list -- I bet more than one of these consensus All-Americans is a Hall of Famer. I was surprised to find a handful that had significant NFL careers that somehow managed to elude the orgy of NFL bio creations. There is some really good CFB history in a lot of these AA bios. Once we've stubbed them all, the hard research work will still remain to be done. Also, we need to contemplate a better, more attractive form of infobox template for significant college players who never played in the pros and never coached -- Infobox gridiron football is ugly and uses out-of-date coding. I discussed this with Eagles247 a couple of years ago, but he's gone largely inactive since. The new CFB player infobox not only needs to include parameters for their college careers, but also needs to include degree and post-CFB career information.

BTW, I am grateful that you pushed this; I had always wanted to finish out the AA's but never had the priority time. Like I said on the WP:CFB talk page, these AA bios should all be CFB core articles and they deserve a lot more respect, attention and care from the project than they have received to date. Cheers to you -- you done good. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:21, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I'm pleased at the group effort and progress. Cbl62 (talk) 22:41, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, according to the CFBHOF website there are 948 players and 207 coaches who have been inducted for a total of 1,155 inductees. Wikipedia list 1,091 individual inductee articles (not including 5 list articles). That means we are missing approximately 64 HOF inductees somewhere. I assume we can get a current alphabetical list from CFBHOF or NFF, and then check them off against the Wikipedia CFBHOF category to determine who we're missing. It may be that we already have them all, but just don't have the last 64 articles properly categorized.

BTW, on a related note, and by strange coincidence, the new CFBHOF facility opens in downtown Atlanta tomorrow. Small world, eh? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:22, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Cbl. Would you be able to talk a look at Jackie Tavener/GA1 and help me out on here? My time will be limited the next few days so I don't want it to stay too long, plus you wrote it so you'd be able to handle any sourcing questions much better than I would. Wizardman 17:47, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 24 August 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Bill Watkins, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Bill Watkins led Detroit to the 1887 World Series and by 1894 had won more pennants than any other manager? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Bill Watkins. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Thanks for your contribution Victuallers (talk) 00:25, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 24 August 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Joe Quest, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that stories involving Joe Quest are among the many theories about the origin of the term "Charley horse"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Joe Quest. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Thank you from the DYK project and me Victuallers (talk) 12:12, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's probably not an accident that

Actually, no, it never even crossed my mind that somebody might try to "AfD" this list. Tony built up the text, I believe when he had the original lists qualified, and successfully so, as "featured lists." Cbl62 (talk) 22:02, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I had forgotten Tony's history of Featured List nominations. The FAC folks actually enforce the guidelines, and if you don't comply, the article doesn't get promoted. That being said, the Wolverines stats list is one of the better ones I've seen. What's the annual maintenance like? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:14, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tony, Jweiss, and I have been "crazy" diligent in maintaining it, even game-by-game during the season. Cbl62 (talk) 22:15, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's part of my unspoken objection to creating another 120+ of these lists: they're high maintenance, and 90+% of them will be a completely inaccurate mess of vandalism and unsourced edits within 12 to 18 months. Unfortunately, there is not a three-man team of the Wolverine crazies like you, JW and Tony for all 120 FBS programs. And the creator already doesn't want to source them properly. Hell, we can't even source and maintain our core of 120 FBS team articles properly. WP:CFB really only has about a dozen active editors, and most of us focus on our favorite team or two. That means 80%+ of the team articles are not on an experienced editor's watch list. Every time I get caught up in a WP:CFB uniform formatting or similar issue, and have occasion to review 20 or so FBS team articles, I find amazing amounts of fancruft, vandalism, and just plain weird stuff that accumulates in the course of a year. And the overall quality of most of the team articles -- core articles, mind you, for WP:CFB -- hovers around C-minus.

BTW, whatever happened to Cmadler? He was Big Blue guy, too, wasn't he? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:57, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Your comments hit on an important, but touchy, point, which is that not all programs are created equal. In the case of the historically elite football programs (Notre Dame, Alabama, Ohio State, USC, Texas, etc.), there's sufficient coverage so that GNG warrants an article for every football season, for statistical leaders, etc. Not to pick on Akron, but in the case of the 2002 Akron Zips football team, maybe yes or maybe no. That said, it's very difficult to tell members of a project like ours that their program is less notable, so that they can't have articles on every season or about their statistical leaders. These issues are divisive and drive people away when they think their team is being unfairly picked on or treated unequally. Cbl62 (talk) 22:33, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've commented on this issue before, too, but mine has been a cry in the wilderness. JW and others think it is a worthy goal to create individual season articles for every year of every FBS program. I think that's nuts: most of those seasons for non-top-tier programs would ever survive a focused GNG analysis at AfD. Hell, even some of our core guys, like PMcD, want to fight for season articles for FCS and Division II team seasons for 6-5 and 7-4 teams. Even my Gators, clearly a top-tier program over the last 30 or so years, can't objectively justify single-season articles for virtually all of the first two-thirds of their existence. As you obliquely allude, everyone wants their team's family of CFB articles to be treated like those of Alabama, Michigan, Notre Dame, Ohio State or USC. Sadly, most of them aren't capable of generating the required Wikipedia content of any quality or consistency. I've been working on Florida Gators articles for five years, and I still haven't achieved more than 50% of my own goals, and I've had made some pretty serious efforts. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:55, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No easy answers. Cbl62 (talk) 23:45, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

BTW -- Akron -- WTF is the "Rubber Bowl?" Is that something in which they participate to console themselves after the game? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:50, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A bowl of free prophylactics mandated by the U. for frat parties, maybe? Cbl62 (talk) 23:55, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Jweiss, not sure what's up with this diff deleting more than half of the Chicago–Michigan football rivalry article. The article is new and under construction, and I was unsure whether the edit which was explained only with the summary ("spacing") was inadvertent or had another rationale. Let me know. Cbl62 (talk) 04:23, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My bad. I intended just to delete a stray extra space, but I seem to have deleted a lot more. Sorry about that. Jweiss11 (talk) 05:00, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. The article is in need of trimming, which I'll be working on, but that seemed a bit excessive! Cbl62 (talk) 05:02, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 27 August 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Peter Hauser (American football), which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Native American football player Peter Hauser has been credited with throwing the first spiral pass? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Peter Hauser (American football). You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Thank you for your contribution to the wiki Victuallers (talk) 12:03, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cbl, I just created a stub for former NBA player Dennis Stewart (basketball). It could use expanding, and he's a Michigan guy, so just an FYI in case you have any interest. Thanks. Jrcla2 (talk) 18:12, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 29 August 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Lynn Bomar, which you recently nominated. The fact was ... that "The Blonde Bear" supervised the ransacking of black households in the 1946 Columbia Race Riot? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Lynn Bomar. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:42, 27 August 2014 (UTC) 00:03, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

	The All-American award
	For starting the All-American campaign. Also The picture is Edgar Allan Poe from the 1889 College Football All-America Team. You could have just clicked on the image but anyway. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 17:32, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply ]

Hey, we need you to chime in on this. I've posted comments to each of these four Requested Move discussions identified on the WP:CFB talk page, by explaining, as clearly and succinctly as I know how, the established consensus naming conventions for college sports articles -- that is the university short name (e.g., "

So, would the "Hornettes" qualify? Just asking. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:43, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:05, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 26 August 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Neno DaPrato, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Michigan State halfback Neno DaPrato was called "the greatest scoring machine of the year" after scoring 130 points, in just six games, during the 1915 season? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Neno DaPrato. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:03, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Cbl62: Head's up: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football#Next round of proposed CFB "rivalry" articles for AfD review. Your input is requested. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:38, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You asked me a couple weeks ago to consider which Big Ten rivalry articles might warrant further scrutiny.

• I think the bigger problem (i.e., the truly "low-hanging fruit") lies not in the longstanding series in the major conferences but with the non-majors and mid-majors where even true "rivalry" games are of questionable notability. Looking just at the
  WP:GNG
  scrutiny.
  
• As for the Big 10, and putting aside the two you already brought up (MO-IL and IN-KY), the Big 10 rivalry rosters do not seem bloated with one major exception -- Penn State. Penn State's purported roster of rivalries has eight entries. Here are some that I think warrant closer scrutiny:

• Minnesota–Penn State football rivalry: yes, a trophy was created, but they have only played 8 times, and realignment has now placed them into different divisions.
• Alabama–Penn State football rivalry: traditional powers who briefly played an annual non-conference series for a single decade from 1981-1990. Not what I think of as a true rivalry, but it manage to survive an AfD in November 2011 which can be found here.
• Maryland–Penn State football rivalry: this has never been a true rivalry. The teams have played 37 times, and Maryland has one only once.
  

At least one non-Penn State entry probably requires some scrutiny as well: Colorado–Nebraska football rivalry: I don't know about the history, but the article suggests it wasn't a big deal until the 1980s and now they're not even in the same conference, so it was short-lived at best.

Maryland is new to the Big 10 and has 5 rivalry articles, which is on the high side, but I don't yet know enough about the Terrapins to offer an informed judgment on these. User:Strikehold would have been a good person to check with, but he hasn't been active for a couple years.

Michigan has five rivalry articles, but one (Chicago–Michigan football rivalry) is purely historic in nature. The other four (OSU, MSU, Notre Dame and Minnesota are solid.)

• Leaving the Big 10, but staying in the Midwest, Notre Dame might appear to be a bloated list with 10 rivalry entries. However, there's so much lore built up around Notre Dame that I doubt that any of these 10 series could/should be AfD'd. The Northwestern series was AfD'd a year ago (here), and Jweiss, PaulMcDoanald, Ejgreen, TonyTheTiger and I all voted "keep" after reviewing the sources.Cbl62 (talk) 21:26, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks for the feedback, Cbl. Several of the non-Big Ten rivalries you listed above are already on my hit list, and I think your Big Ten weak sisters are dead on the money (and, yes, I've been around long enough to be familiar with Big Blue vs. the Maroons). I voted to keep Bama-Penn State in 2011; my level of scrutiny and my !vote would both probably be different now. You're right: the Notre Dame cluster is tough because it's a collection of active rivalries plus notable historic rivalries. I did the SEC first because I know it best, and also to set an example for everyone else; I will probably do another round of SEC (mostly SEC vs. non-SEC), and then look at the Big Ten and MAC. The ACC has a handful of weak sister "rivalries," too. The Big 12 has a bunch, but they have series names and trophies, which means somebody is attached to them, even if they aren't particularly notable per GNG. I expect to raise 20-25 more at WP:CFB, and then take the ones to AfD which a majority of WP:CFB editors give the thumb's down. I think it's a smart process for two reasons: (1) it's educational for all the CFB editors to clearly understand the NRIVARLY/GNG standard, (2) it creates a built-in consensus of 5-10 !votes at AfD, and (3) it allows us to avoid any obvious mistakes with a pre-discussion. I also think it's important that all of the regulars feel like they've had their say and their articles got a fair hearing. Apart from holding all of them to a strict GNG standard, I also think we can apply a certain measure of common sense to some of the relatively recent, short-lived series. Inevitably, there will be some squealing. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:04, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• You mentioned the sheer number of LSU rivalry at 7 as being indicative of overreach. Yet, there are almost as many supposed rivalry articles for Florida -- six. Do you think they all qualify as traditional, notable rivalries? When I think of Florida's rivals, I pretty much think of Florida State and Georgia. Sure, the Fulmer-Spurrier games were classics, but does that make it a traditional rivalry? Likewise, everyone gets excited to play Alabama, but can the Crimson Tide really have 8 current rivalries? It would show some real balance to include one or two of Florida's questionable rivalries in the next batch. Cbl62 (talk) 23:03, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I hear you, but do remember we've already deleted Alabama-Florida and Florida-South Carolina. What makes Florida's situation problematic is two historical rivalries, both legit: Auburn (SEC cross-division, formerly annual 1927-1940, 1945-2002), Miami (in-state, formerly annual 1938-1942, 1944-1987). The four active rivalries are annual: Florida State (in-state, annual since 1958), Georgia (SEC in-division, annual 1926-1942, 1944-present), Tennessee (SEC in-division, annual since 1990), and LSU (SEC cross-division, annual 1953-1967, 1971-present). From my perspective, the only candidate is LSU -- it has the least character of a traditional rivalry. Tennessee, which you suggested, has been the second most important rivalry, after FSU, over the last 24 years. It is, of course, also the newest/youngest in terms of total games played. The most obvious Bama candidate for AfD is Penn State, as you suggested.

You know Florida football best, though I'm surprised you would rate the Tennesee series ahead of the "

World's Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party," which I've always thought of as one of the biggest rivalry games in college football. I thought the "bigness" of the Tennessee series was limited to the decade from mid-90s to mid-00s when things were actually competitive. Cbl62 (talk) 01:22, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply

]

• Oh, I think the alumni probably have a greater emotional investment in the Florida-Georgia game, but the Florida-Tennessee game has had conference and national title implications more frequently since 1990. I chose my words carefully: the "most important," not the most popular, not the most bitter. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:41, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:19, 29 August 2014 (UTC) 00:03, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:03, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I came across William McRae while filling out some 1920s All-American lists. Aside from playing for the Gators, he was also a Rhodes scholar and federal judge. The article could use some TLC if you or another Gator fan has an interest. Cbl62 (talk) 15:39, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Thank you, very much, for finding this article. I had no idea the article existed. I had considered creating one under "Bill McRae," but had no real information on him other than the name-only listing as a second-team All-American from a couple of 1928 All-America team articles, and the years he lettered from the Gators media guide. Given the paucity of significant coverage, I was concerned that the subject would not survive a GNG review at AfD. McRae having served as a federal judge, I believe that definitively resolves the notability issue.

McRae and several of the other 1928 second and third-team All-Americans are "lost" (other than Dale Van Sickel), and are not currently listed in the media guide as having received AA honors in 1928. I suspect that the other three '28 AA's were overlooked because Van Sickel was the first-ever first-teamer the Gators ever had. Having found the newspaper back-up through Google News Archive for Clyde Crabtree, Bill McRae and Jimmy Steele's '28 honors, I really need to forward the clippings to UAA sports information department so they will be properly listed in future editions of the Gators media guide. The 1928 Gators were probably the best Gators team ever until 1960 or 1969, an maybe until 1984 or 1990. They were a Very Big Deal for their generation and deserve to be better remembered by Gators fans.

Again, thank you very much for bringing this article to my attention. I owe you one large favor; feel free to collect at your discretion. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:54, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Someday - and that day may never come - I'll call upon you to do a service for me. But until that day, accept this justice as gift ..." Don Corleone Seriously, no problem. That one got me digging into old Fla. yearbooks, and I've uploaded a bunch of PD photos that you might also want to check out. Cbl62 (talk) 21:24, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, counselor. Doing service is honorable, especially in honor of a service freely given in the past. I'll have a look-see later tonight at your recent uploads. I already saw the Seminole photo of Van Sickel you added. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:29, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Uploaded the photo yesterday, so I went ahead and created Edgar C. Jones today. Hopefully, you have some additional print works that can help flesh it out. Cbl62 (talk) 21:48, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

See also Tootie Perry, another photo upload inspiring an article. Cbl62 (talk) 04:35, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I see that. Nice work on finding the mainstream newspaper articles to support his notability. I had made a cursory search several years ago, and quickly concluded that there was not enough significant coverage in independent sources to support a stand-alone article. Well done proving me wrong. BTW, Tootie was a first-team All-Southern Conference selection at least once. I'll find a linked newspaper article, and layer it in when I get a chance. Tootie was an icon of Gators football from the 1920s through the 1940s. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:40, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• With your newspapers.com account, you should be able to find quite a few more sources. He appears to have been quite a colorful personality. Cbl62 (talk) 04:48, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Thank you, sir. Tootie was apparently a hell of an athlete in his generation, but became something of a cartoon character as the "All-American waterboy." Newspapers.com and Google News Archive search results are always somewhat random. Like I've said before, sometimes the obvious keyword search is not the one that produces the desired results, and it requires multiple search variations before you can find what you're looking for. I'll dig some more tomorrow. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:56, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Also All-Americans
  WP:GNG in my opinion. Cbl62 (talk) 18:32, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Wow. You've been a busy beaver. Dupree has been on my to-do list forever; there's plenty of good material I can add from several hard-copy sources. His exploits were well chronicled, as he had three good years on good Gators teams. Bethea is a little murkier, and will require a little more homework.

DYK for Will White

On 1 September 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Will White, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Will White, the first Major League Baseball player to wear glasses, holds the records of 75 complete games and 680 innings pitched in one season? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Will White. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:02, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:03, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:03, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, Cbl, I've noticed that you have added several strong vertical photos to the infoboxes of Florida Gators players and coaches. As I'm sure you know, squarish and horizontally-oriented rectangular photos tend to work better in the infobox, usually with a head-and shoulders photo cropped to emphasize the subject's face. As you noted in the new Edgar C. Jones article, the vertically-oriented full-body shots of football players tend to work better when they are incorporated into the main body text. Strong vertical photos in the infobox tend to make the infoboxes overly tall/long, leading to aesthetically displeasing layouts. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:19, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think that, where I've added vertically-oriented images, there was no image previously. Cbl62 (talk) 04:17, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Where are you getting on-line access to the old University of Florida yearbooks? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:11, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ancestry.com -- more broadly, there are multiple sites where old yearbooks can be found. In the case of Florida, there's a pretty solid run dating back to 1911 on Ancestry.com. You might want to subscribe for a month and browse. Cbl62 (talk) 16:30, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, Cbl. Can you check you search Ancestry.com for military draft and service records? If so, can you check for Carl E. Perry? There's an obvious break in his college record from 1917 to 1918 which would correspond to military service during World War I. Given that the University of Florida was the state's de facto military academy during that era (all students were required to be members of the university's corps of cadets), it seems likely that he was inducted into the U.S. Army as a junior officer or NCO as so many other Florida students were at the time. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:45, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

His draft registration card is dated June 5, 1917. It says nothing about being a student at U. Fla. It lists his employment as a "messenger" with "Lou [possibly Sou] Express Company." No military service at that time. Three months later, it appears he was drafted. There is an entry from the Alachua draft board in "Lists of Men Ordered to Report to Local Board for Military Duty, 1917–1918," indicating that a Carl E. Perry was "forwarded to mobilization camp" on 9/6/17 and accepted at mobilization camp on 9/16. No other record of service or discharge found. Cbl62 (talk) 18:12, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• The football media guide lists him as a letterman in 1916, so we know where he was in the fall of 1916. He may have been bounced for academic reasons after his first term, but he also seems to be one of those guys who held jobs while he was enrolled at Florida. "[A]ccepted at mobilization camp" strongly implies he was on active military duty, but obviously leaves much to be desired in terms of detail. Somewhere, there is going to a mention of his Army service in a newspaper article or an old book about Gators football. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:21, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the record is a record from the draft board of men "ordered to report." It shows that he reported on 9/5 and was accepted 9/6. It looks like he was drafted by the Alachua draft board and reported in Sept. 1917. Nothing to indicate prior service. Cbl62 (talk) 18:27, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Well, that's consistent with the historical timeline; the U.S. Congress declared war on Germany in April 1917. Norm Carlson's 2007 book mentions Perry's "two years in the army," but that's all it says. Norm sometimes gets little details wrong, too, especially for those eras that predate his time as a student or employee of the university. Clearly, there is also a question of whether he was enrolled for the Spring 1917 term, but it's probably not necessary to reconstruct his entire CV for 1916 to 1922. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:38, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, Cbl, I need some of that voodoo magic of yours. Cy Williams, a Gator stud lineman from 1923-25, played in the AFL in 1926, and the NFL in 1929, 1930 and 1932. He also wrestled professionally in 1931 and 1932. I believe that his full name was "Burton Caswell Williams," possibly misspelled as "Buton C. William" and "Berton Caswell Williams." He was born in Alabama in 1903, and died in California in either 1965 or 1975. I would like to confirm his DOB, POB, DOD, POD and correct full name. The University of Florida alumni records are inconclusive and the media guide has obvious spelling errors. He may have had a son (or possibly a grandson) of the same name -- Burton C. Williams -- who played for the Gators in the early 1960s and graduated in 1965; that Burton C. Williams was living in a small town in the Florida Panhandle as recently as the last 10 years. "Cy" Williams would have been in his late 30s at the time of Pearl Harbor, so I'm hopeful you can locate some military service records to help confirm basic facts, or your usual Social Security death records, etc. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:34, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dirtlawyer and @MisterCake: I have nominated seven of our recent Florida Hall of Fame articles for DYK at Template:Did you know nominations/Tootie Perry. I have shared DYK credit as appeared appropriate. I did not include Ark Newton, as it is not long or developed enough. If there are any other newly-created articles that could be included in this hook, or if you believe the hook needs to be modified, please let me know. Cbl62 (talk) 21:32, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Cy Williams (American football), not seeing any matching miltary records. He would have been 38 on Pearl Harbor day, so he may not have served. The 1940 U.S. Census includes an entry for a "Burton" Williams living in Tampa, FL, in 1940 (Oakland, CA in 1935), born in Alabama, age 36, employed as a wrestler, married with a wife named Margaret. He appears to have then moved back to the Bay Area, as California death records have a "Berton C Williams" born 12 Oct 1903 in Alabama, died 28 Sep 1965 in Alameda County. There is also a fairly well-developed family tree on Ancestry that shows his parents as Benjamin Collis Williams (1871 – 1913) and Maria Prescott. There is also a member-uploaded photograph of him from the late 1940s or 1950s. Cbl62 (talk) 21:52, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I start getting nervous when I see multiple data points for the same parameters: NFL.com has the birth date as October 10; Pro-Football-Reference.com has the first name spelled "Berton"; IMdB.com (never one of my favorites for reliability) has the year of death as 1975; the Florida football media guide and other Gators sources mention "Cy Williams," but the media guide lists a "Buton William" having lettered in 1923, '24 and '25. Then add to the mix the much more famous "Cy Williams" of MLB, and you have to sift through a lot of irrelevant newspaper articles to find anything about the subject.

Does the Ancestry.com family tree connect Cy to the Burton C. Williams (born c. 1943, Florida '65) who lives (was living) in the Florida Panhandle (last known address in Carabelle)? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:02, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No. The tree that is on-line does not reflect any children for the Burton C. Williams born in 1903 in Alabama. However, this may simply be due to lack of completeness. Cbl62 (talk) 22:17, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Expanded Ark Newton a bit. Cake (talk) 05:50, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

MC, you're finding some good newspaper articles about Ark from the 1920s with Google News Archives searches. Good work. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 11:31, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 13 September 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Arthur Tipton, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that 1898 All-American football player Arthur Tipton prompted a rule change when he kicked a loose ball down the field and fell on it for a touchdown after it crossed the goal line? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Arthur Tipton. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:03, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:03, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is a poorly named article, but the subject is notable and should be covered with a well-written article. It's presently pending at AfD, but I expect that the topic will survive scrutiny. After the AfD closes, would you be interested in helping re-write into something coherent? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:01, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for thinking of me, but this is not really a topic that is of interest to me. Cbl62 (talk) 15:51, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks for letting me know. There will be other days, and other articles . . . . Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:55, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Indeed. Cbl62 (talk) 16:02, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cbl, are you still an active administrator? I know you're listed as a sysop, but I rarely see you doing sysoppy sorts of things . . . if you're still active, I hope you won't mind if I ask for help with admin tasks from time to time. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:56, 18 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I am and don't mind. Cbl62 (talk) 23:58, 18 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• You're like the least advertised administrator -- ever. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:10, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 19 September 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Vince Banonis, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that College Football Hall of Fame inductee Vince Banonis (pictured) was an All-American center for the University of Detroit and All-NFL for the Chicago Cardinals? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Vince Banonis. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:02, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Kudos to you for being willing to police your own. I've nominated 10 or 12 Gators for AfD over the last three years, and there are still probably another 4 or 5 that objectively satisfy neither NCOLLATH or GNG. I will chime in on the several pending AfDs, but they will all require some Google search time to support the !votes. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:46, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. In addition to the ones already nominated, I am evaluating several others at User:Cbl62/Michigan deletion candidates. I have asked a few other Michigan football contributors for input to make sure I don't mis-fire before nominating any more. If you have thoughts on any of them, feel free to comment there. Cbl62 (talk) 16:55, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 20 September 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Dick Burns, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the baseball player Dick Burns's "up-shoot" was called "a beauty"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Dick Burns. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:32, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hey. Can you revdel this edit [diff] and the one immediately before it? When you see the edits, the request should be self-explanatory. Thanks a bunch. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:48, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• On second thought, this is probably going to require a user requested page deletion and restoration of the current content as a new page. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:55, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cbl, can you check the 1940 and 1941 Seminole yearbooks to see if Al Rosen was shown as a member of the Gators baseball team in either of those years. It's pretty clear that Rosen attended the university in 1940-41, but it is very unclear whether he ever played for the baseball team. The media guide does not list him as a letterman (and we have a handful of pretty darn obscure guys who played in MLB, all of whom are accounted for), and I can't find any of the usual retrospective articles from the SID about him. I've exhausted my usual references, and have found nothing that definitively states Rosen played baseball for the Gators. If he doesn't appear in the yearbook as a member of the team, I think we need to remove the reference to having played for the Gators from the Wikipedia article. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:35, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The 1942 Seminole yearbook does not appear to have a complete roster but lists the following personnel: coach Sam McAllister and the following players: catchers Emerson and Chubby Ferrigno, pitchers Nat Mostow, Kleinhans, Scarborough, Phillips, Red McKendree, and Bud Manchester, infielders Bryan, Cabot, Forest Ferguson, Poston, Kaplan, Johnson, DeWolf, Myers, Hershey, and Harris, and outfielders Bill Wilbanks, Jack Davis, White Murray, Leo Cahill and Harris. Also Eddie Hausenbauer, Hugo Miller, and Georgie Sutherland. No Al Rosen. Cbl62 (talk) 15:50, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The 1941 Seminole does not appear to have a complete baseball roster but lists the following persons in the section on the baseball team: coach Sam McAllister, manager Walter Davy, catchers Charles Tate, pitchers Bud Gates, John Clower, infielders Hank Pennock, Winston Palmer, Bud Walton, Billy Burns, outfielders Norris Thompson, Coburn Moore. Also Jim Bonnerman. No Al Rosen. Cbl62 (talk) 15:58, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Do the '41 and '42 yearbooks mention a freshman or junior varsity baseball team for those years? I'm pretty sure the NCAA three-year (i.e. no freshmen) eligibility rule was already in effect for all sports by then.

FYI, Forest Ferguson was "Fergie" Ferguson, who was and remains kind of a big deal in Gators sports circles -- earned a DSC on Omaha Beach on D-Day. Charlie Tate became the head coach of the Miami Hurricanes football team in 1960s. The only other name I recognize is McAllister's. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:39, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No. Just a two-page spread each year on baseball, which does reference some freshmen, but no Rosen. Cbl62 (talk) 19:04, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The 1941 yearbook included a good photo of Ferguson which I've uploaded to the article on the Fergie Ferguson Award. Cbl62 (talk) 19:28, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, sir. I'm going to remove the "played for the Gators" reference from the Al Rosen article until I can find something definitive regarding his purported one season of college play. BTW, was there any reference to the freshmen football team in the Seminole? I know the freshmen football team existed: it was called the Omelet Squad for reasons I've never fully understood. At least two Gators coaches were specifically hired to served as the "head coach" of the freshmen. If there's no reference to the football freshmen, that might lead me to believe there was a freshmen baseball team then, too. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:53, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There are a couple pages each year on the freshman football team. Football gets more extensive ink than baseball. Cbl62 (talk) 21:19, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 26 September 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Martin Manulis, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Martin Manulis was the producer of Playhouse 90, voted the greatest television series of all time in a 1970 poll of television editors? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Martin Manulis. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:02, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The rarity of southern players on Walter Camp's All-America first teams led to an apparent cliche, or conundrum, with the claim of "first Southern player chosen by Walter Camp." Strupper seems to get that title if I have reviewed the lists presented here correctly. Quite a few sportswriters who had surely watched football and read about it in 1917, seemed the first to put this label on Bum Day in 1918. Hm. Just a journalism cliche, "puffing" of a kind? Or just because Strupper was the second halfback chosen while Day the first center? Or is there an error on the 1917 page? Or something else? I'd appreciate if you shed light on my darkness; hope not too silly a question. Cake (talk) 21:59, 29 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• FYI, the Walter Camp Football Foundation does not list a 1917 All-America Team, but includes the following notation: "All-America Team not selected because of World War I." (See current WCFF All-America Teams webpage here.) Our 1917 College Football All-America Team article lists Walter Camp All-Americans, as published in Collier's. The 2014 NCAA Records Book has an asterisk next to the 1917 entry for Walter Camp, with a footnoted annotation: "In 1917, Walter Camp selected an all-Service, All-America team composed of military personnel." The website that I have been using to view old Collier's articles does not include issues from before 1926. (See here.) This clearly bears some scrutiny because the NCAA believes that the 1917 Walter Camp selections were different from other years, and the WCFF doesn't even acknowledge them. If, as I suspect, Camp chose only players for the various Army and Navy service teams, such as the Great Lakes Naval Station football team, the distinction may have been lost on some newspapers in reporting what the selected players' colleges were vs. what service team they were playing for in 1917. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:06, 30 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Then I found this December 13, 1917 article from the Oregon Daily Journal here, which lists an Auburn player in addition to Strupper. Interesting. And you will note the phrasing of the linked article: "Camp . . . has indicated his choice of an All-American Team this year will be made from the following players . . . ." The list looks preliminary, as it includes multiple players at all positions (except guard). Note the odd use of the future tense. I have yet to find a subsequent article through Google News Archive or Newspapers.com that explains this. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:32, 30 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• And then we discovered the footnoted article from the Fort Wayne Sentinel used to source the 1917 "Walter Camp" selections in the Wikipedia article does nothing of the kind. Walter Camp is mentioned elsewhere on page 8, but the All-America team listed is the newspaper's, not Camp's. (See here.) Ouch. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:53, 30 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Found it: consistent with the WCFF's non-listing of a 1917 team and the NCAA's 1917 notation in its record book, Collier's published a list of "All-America Service Teams" by Walter Camp in its January 5, 1918 issue. (See p. 32 here.) As usual, no Southerners were included among Camp's first team. I still can't explain what the Oregon Daily Journal was referencing in the linked article from December 13, 1917 above. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:08, 30 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• So Camp didn't select an All America team, rather selected an All Service team, but then also published a team in Collier's Weekly reported by a Fort Wayne newspaper? I can't find the reference in the Fort Wayne paper. In fact I see only a paper published that week for the 28th not the 29th, and I didn't see any mention of football. What you said made a lot of sense, but then I haven't a clue what the wikipedia article is referencing. Page 47 in your Collier's Weekly seems to have some southerns as honorable mention, but Guyon is mentioned above Strupper. Cake (talk) 01:17, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Cake, the Fort Wayne Sentinel is a head-fake/red herring that should never have been included as a reference. The All-America team listed in the Fort Wayne newspapers is not Walter Camp's 1917 college team; it's the newspaper's own 1917 All-America team. The words "Walter Camp" do not appear in the article, but they do appear elsewhere on the same page. Someone who added the footnote/citation to the 1917 College Football All-America Team article was clearly using a key word search that included "Walter Camp" and "All-America" and did not look to confirm that it was actually Camp's 1917 college list, which it wasn't.

Camp did not pick a college football All-America team for 1917; he did pick "All-America Service Teams" for 1917 (see January 5, 1918 issue of Collier's linked above). This is confirmed by the notations in the NCAA Records Book and by the Walter Camp Football Foundation's lack of a 1917 All-America team. The WCFF did not exist in 1917, but it does include all of the Walter Camp All-America teams prior to the formation of the WCFF as part of its lineage, and WCFF specifically states there was no 1917 team because of World War I (see WCFF webpage linked above).

All of which brings us back to Strupper and Bum Day; Day still appears to be the first-ever first-team All-American selected by Walter Camp (1918). As for the present Wikipedia article "1917 College Football All-America Team," it clearly needs to be critically reviewed and edited to strip out the inaccurate "Walter Camp" selections for 1917, and all other selections need to be confirmed using Newspapers.com, Google News Archive, and other available online searches. I think we also need to discuss what secondary selectors we include in our All-America team articles. In my opinion, we should not be including selections from the Fort Wayne Sentinel and the like. There were dozens of such minor selectors every year, most of which are of no historical importance. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:50, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see even the newspaper's own All America team nor a newspaper for the date given, but that is interesting. I did not know such errors were left on All-America team pages. Will try to at least post a few if any proper teams on 1917s All-Americans talk page.Cake (talk) 02:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Fort Wayne Sentinel article is cited, but not linked in the 1917 Wikipedia article; try this. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:42, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Consider this one [2] Search for Strupper's page, will say he was the first southern All-American.Cake (talk) 18:15, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

MC, what's at issue is who was the first-ever Southerner who was a first-team All-American selected by Walter Camp. Camp had previous second and third-team selections, and undoubtedly there were a handful of Southerners picked as first-teamers before 1918 by selectors other than Camp. It's unclear from his GSHOF bio who selected Strupper as an All-American in 1917, but we know it wasn't Camp because Camp did not select a team in 1917. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:26, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I know; was just to show I hope I had reason to inquire. The claim to fame is being the first selected by Walter Camp, yet one finds claims like that for Strupper along with it being said here (wrongly, I get it) that Camp picked Strupper. It looks like Day; McMillin, Roberts, Weaver; Fincher; and Bomar get to be called Camp's southerners. Cake (talk) 19:31, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Is Red Weaver wearing a codpiece in that photo?? Now, that's a physique. LOL Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:37, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am presently tied up on non-WP matters, but I noticed this discussion. If the footnote referencing the WC team for 1917 is in error, it was probably my error. I created most of the early AA team articles. If it is in error, it should be fixed. Give me a few days, and I'll check it out. If there is a separate WC All-Service team, it should be included and identified as such. As for limiting selectors, I favor inclusion with clear sourcing. (My preferred practice is to identify in bold the selectors recognized by the NCAA as official for consensus purposes.) For many years, Camp's selections are the only "official" selections, but they were highly controversial at the time and sidely regarded as biased in favor of the Ivy League and Eastern schools. Camp rarely attended games outside a 100-mile radius of New Haven, did not see most non-Eastern players in action, while led to angry calls in the Western press that his selections ought not to be regarded as true "All-American" teams. Inclusion of other selectors, particularly Western and Southern selectors (even though not used in the NCAA consensus determinations), helps present a broader and more balanced spectrum of historical points of view. More information is better. Cbl62 (talk) 15:59, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The old AA pages are a long-term project that I started years ago. There are still a number of missing selectors that I was unable to track down. I have now ordered a copy of the ESPN College Football Encyclopedia which should be delivered within a couple weeks. Once I get that, I can also go back and start filling in some of the older holes. Cbl62 (talk) 16:15, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:1917_College_Football_All-America_Team Let me know how it looks when you get a chance. Thanks for the help dirtlawyer. Cake (talk) 12:15, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A few newspapers mention Reynolds Tichenor as the first Southern player ever selected for an All-American by Walter Camp; I guess for a third-team or something, but see no mention of him anywhere. Might wish to double check to see if he ever got any mention. Cake (talk) 02:15, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 3 October 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Len Ford, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that in his NFL debut season, Pro Football Hall of Fame inductee Len Ford (pictured) was injured so severely in a game he required plastic surgery to "virtually rebuild" his face? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Len Ford. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:02, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, Cbl62, when you have some extra time, can you please use your Ancestry.com access to confirm Rick Casares' full name? I have it as Richard Jose Casares, but I just came across a random internet reference that suggested his first name was Enrique, not Richard. It's possible that this is one of those born in a Spanish-speaking family, but wanted an English name scenarios, but Ricardo is the Spanish equivalent of Richard; Enrique translates as Henry. I'm perplexed. The university alumni records list him as Richard, which I would be inclined to rely upon in most circumstances. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 10:12, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cbl, another editor and I have nominated 15 regular season games for AfD in the last 48 hours (see WT:CFB for a list). I know you're busy with real life right now, but I would be grateful if I could get your recommendations for other weak-sister single-game articles (see category), especially those from the 2000s. I figured after we've made a good start, we might as well go ahead and clean house while we have everyone's attention. I plan on circling back to the rivalry articles in the next couple of weeks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 12:45, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 11 October 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Buck Flowers, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that after College Football Hall of Fame inductee Buck Flowers returned two punts for touchdowns, a writer suggested that the opposition Auburn Tigers made a dying request: "Please omit Flowers"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Buck Flowers. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:03, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Re this. Would you mind reading my preview of the game, and ensuring that I wrote a fair characterization of Michigan's current athletic controversy? Thanks. Go Phightins! 21:08, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(sports)#Bullpen_catchers Alex (talk) 06:08, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 24 November 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Tootie Perry, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the American football players inducted into the University of Florida Athletic Hall of Fame as "Gator Greats" include "All-American Waterboy" Tootie Perry, attorney Goldy Goldstein, and halfbacks Red Bethea and Larry Dupree? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Tootie Perry. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:38, 24 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 24 November 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Goldy Goldstein, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the American football players inducted into the University of Florida Athletic Hall of Fame as "Gator Greats" include "All-American Waterboy" Tootie Perry, attorney Goldy Goldstein, and halfbacks Red Bethea and Larry Dupree? You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:39, 24 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 24 November 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Red Bethea, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the American football players inducted into the University of Florida Athletic Hall of Fame as "Gator Greats" include "All-American Waterboy" Tootie Perry, attorney Goldy Goldstein, and halfbacks Red Bethea and Larry Dupree? You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:40, 24 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On 24 November 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Larry Dupree, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the American football players inducted into the University of Florida Athletic Hall of Fame as "Gator Greats" include "All-American Waterboy" Tootie Perry, attorney Goldy Goldstein, and halfbacks Red Bethea and Larry Dupree? You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:40, 24 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Good to see you editing again, Cbl. Hopefully, we will see more of you in the next few weeks. Regards, Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:27, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cosigned. Jweiss11 (talk) 22:26, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks guys. Cbl62 (talk) 00:05, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, Cbl. I just got the Robert Cade article promoted to Good Article in the last few minutes. As I understand it, GAs may be the subject of a DYK if they are submitted within 24 hours of GA promotion. Given that Cade invented Gatorade, the hook for a DYK seems obvious. Would you care to submit a DYK for this subject -- I'm not that familiar with the process, but would be happy to assist in any way I can. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:29, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take care of it. And I don't think it is 24 hours, but I'lll take care of it now. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 00:59, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

7&6=thirteen: Please ping me with a link to the DYK nomination and I will be happy to support and provide background, etc., regarding the subject as needed. Thanks for your help, sir. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:15, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but my cable went out, so my actions are delayed. I'll will do it now. Beyond talk, any other creators? Any special hook beyond the obvious? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 11:38, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks -- not a problem. No other significant contributors. Your proposed hooks look good, but I prefer the second. I have found the proposed DYK template, and have watch-listed it to follow the discussion. Thanks for all your help. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 12:19, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]