User talk:Ninguém
(Hipocricy removed)
Dated comments
Hi. I see you are replacing your old name with your new name in your comments on various talk pages. I don't see the purpose for this, but I guess it isn't too disruptive. You shouldn't be changing the dates, though, because that makes it difficult to understand the flow of the conversation. Could you please stop changing the dates? Thanks,
I guess you've been replacing the old sigs with ~~~~. Please don't do that, since although it's easier, it does change the date. Instead, copy-paste only the username into the old sig, leaving the old dates as they are, thanks. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:05, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Moreover, it highlights the changes you've made, which I don't think you want to happen: I see you haven't done too many of these yet, so you might want to go back and redo them all as your time allows, so the old dates are shown again. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:10, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Unhappily, I have done practically all of them, which took a lot of work. I will change the few remaining ones in the way you suggest, but I don't think I will have the patience to redo all the others any time soon. Sorry for the trouble, but I didn't actually realise there was a problem there. Ninguém (talk) 14:42, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Opinoso
The user Opinoso is a very complicated person to deal with. He can do whatever he wants in the articles he "owns" while no one else may touch any of them. And he is always acting like he was the victim of attacks that never happened and at the same time keeps threatening me. - --Lecen (talk) 20:33, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Hey Ninguem- keep up your fight against Opinoso, he's a real low life. People like this guy ruin Wikipedia. We have to find some way to stop him from changing every article on Brazil. Adios. -Vivalatinamerica —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.2.200.215 (talk) 22:39, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
- Some users make small, foolish edits that do not improve the articles. Other users revert them systematically and, through this, acquire "respectability" as "good users" that "fight vandalism and disruption". The former are not in conflict with the latter; actually they constitute the "food" on which the latter prey to get stronger in Wikipedia - sometimes becoming so strong that they can actually "own" articles, because any attempt to modify "their" articles tends to be understood as an example of "vandalism" or "disruption".
- You do me (or Wikipedia) no favour in edit warring the way you do. On the contrary, you fortify and legitimate article ownership.
You're right- I got way too carried away trying to stop Opinoso. Well, that's an understatement, lol- I got far too caught up in arguing with the wacko. It just really annoys me how insanely biased he is in changing so much of wikipedia. I'll stop, and I just hope you have better luck stopping assholes like him. Good luck. - Vivalatinamerica.
blocked
You should know by now that edit warring isn't allowed on en.Wikipedia because it never helps. You've fallen back into the harmful back and forth of edit warring, moreover with the same editor, so I've blocked you from editing for 24 hours. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
{{unblock|Your reason here}}
below, but you should read our guide to appealing blocks first. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)Block appeal
The edit wars consist in the following:
In White Brazilians:
[1] (contrary to source)
[2] (per source)
[3] (refers to Darcy Ribeiro, Varguista anthropologist, but does not even refers to a source)
[4] (per source)
[5] (now gives Ribeiro as a source, but says the information is in volume 7 of O Povo Brasileiro - a book that has only one volume).
In São Paulo:
[6] (undoes varies changes in a same edit, including restoring references whose titles don't match the sources' names)
[7] (undoes blind reversal, in order to restore proper name of references)
[8] (reintroduces references that were replaced back in December 2008, replacement that has not been objected by anyone during seven months. Summary edit talks about "unexplained changes" - the change was in December 7th, 2008, and was explained as "removing broken links".)
[9] (reverts to newer sources with corrected names)
[10] (reverts, calling reverted edit "vandalism").
With the edit war about sources, as the reverals are blind, comes the reinstatement of the "information" that there are 6 million Italians (not Italian Brazilians, but Italians period) in São Paulo...
That's the story - or those are the stories. Ninguém (talk) 21:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)}}
So, if I make an edit, and another editor reverts it in direct contradiction to the cited sources, I should not reverse? What should I do? Ninguém (talk) 21:34, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- File a report.— Dædαlus Contribs 21:36, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:40, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
So that someone who neither cares nor knows anything on the subject can tell me that I should "kiss and make up" ([11])? Ninguém (talk) 21:57, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Nobody said that.That's English language idiom. If you can't get along with each other, stay away from each other. What I'm saying is, you can't edit war. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:59, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Every time I have filed a report, I have been told it's a content issue. The only times I could get someone to actually look at the dispute were when you noticed that good faith edits were being called "vandalism", and when Hoary looked at a reversal that was totally contrary to the source. But then I got enslaved to
If I must promise that I won't edit war, I need to be reassured that the complaints I eventually make will be taken in serious. Ninguém (talk) 22:09, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Oh, and I know it is an English language idiom. It means that I should drop the issue and get along as if nothing had happened. Which, evidently, isn't as ridiculous as suggesting an actual kiss, but comes close. Ninguém (talk) 22:14, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
OK, I won't. Instead, I'm going to file a complaint against this guy. Am I going to be told to kiss and make up? Or that it is a content issue, and that no one can do anything, because no one understand the content? Or that it "takes two to tango"? Or that there are "personal attacks on both sides"? Or am I going to have to limit myself to edit one article (and then be treated as a second rate employee if I mismanage a reference) while this guy does what he wants everywhere, in spite of being told to edit his sandbox? Ninguém (talk) 22:48, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, that's easy to see: He reversed my edits, I reversed his. He reversed me back again, I reversed him a second time. He reversed a third time. Instead of doing the same, I complained to you in your talk page. What does that say about the edit war continuing or stopping? Ninguém (talk) 23:00, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- If, after your block is up, you edit war again, you'll be blocked again. Gwen Gale (talk) 23:09, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
OK. This means the first absurd this guy does, such as placing text in direct contradiction to the given source, I am reporting him. I hope I don't get stupid "kiss and make up" responses again, as I hope I don't get idiotly blocked by someone who can't read. Let's see. Ninguém (talk) 23:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
In fact, no. I am going to report his attempts to keep misinformation in
]- Yet you carry on commenting about the other editor. Please stop now. Comment only on content and sources. If you comment about the other editor again (outside an RfAR), I will very likely block you again. You will not get what you want by trying to get an admin to sanction another editor with whom you have but a disagreement about content. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:24, 11 July 2009 (UTC)]
- That isn't a "comment" on another editor. It is a complaint. And it is not about content, it is about renewed personal attacks. So, the place for that, if you aren't going to take any measures to stop those personal attacks, isn't RfC or RfAR, but ANI. Ninguém (talk) 21:32, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Put it this way, as of now I am banning you from posting about Opinoso outside of an
]OK. So let's talk about content. In
"According to Darcy Ribeiro before 1850 no more than 500,000 Europeans settled in Brazil <ref>Darcy Ribeiro. O Povo Brasileiro, Vol. 07, 1997 (1997).</ref>."
Unhappily, I know of no edition of O Povo Brasileiro in 7 or more volumes. Here is the best visualisation I could find of it online:
I have searched it many times. I haven't found the information purported in the article there. Is it possible to ask for a page, a chapter, a quote, that points to that information? Ninguém (talk) 22:04, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Talk about it with Opinoso or any other editor who edits the article, but don't comment on Opinoso again, even on this talk page, outside of an RfAR, or I'll block you for two weeks. If Opinoso carries on commenting about you, or will not talk with you about sources, I'll likewise block Opinoso for two weeks. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:09, 11 July 2009 (UTC)]
Done: [14] Ninguém (talk) 22:20, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
And more here: [15].
Is there a deadline for this discussion to happen? Ninguém (talk) 12:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- There are no deadlines for discussions on en.Wikipedia. However, if the other editor comments on you, I'll warn him not to do so outside of an original research and keep in mind that ethnicity mixed with nationalism is almost always a highly, highly controversial, weakly sourced topic which most editors want nothing to do with. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:23, 13 July 2009 (UTC)]
This is a joke, Gwen. How am I going to "blend" my sources with his, when I can't discuss them? And why am I the only one that cannot make original research, while others can not only do original research (for instance, the article on White Brazilians if full of original research, including a whole section about "colonial Whites", a concept that cannot be found anywhere in the litterature), but quote sources as saying something that they do not actually say?
This is not an "encyclopaedia", this is a farce. Ninguém (talk) 13:04, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- If you think it's a joke and a farce, then don't edit here. If en.Wikipedia is indeed a joke and a farce, smart readers won't give Wikipedia article much heed anyway, so there is no pith to your editing here to begin with and nothing is lost. Whatever the truth of this may be, you're trying to edit in one of the more difficult, nettlesome and weakly sourced, broad topic areas on en.Wikipedia (and in the world) and forgive me for saying so, but English is not a first language for you or the other editor and moreover, some of the sources are in Portuguese, which makes this even harder for everyone. If you want to gather more input on this from other editors, please do so. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:15, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, this is one of the most difficult topics. My edits, which I try to make as earnest and sound as possible, never stand. The other editor's edits, which constantly misinterpret the sources, always stand. Perhaps the toppic is only difficult for me, but easy for him?
No, English is not my first language, albeit a have a passable command of it. The problem is not my English, or Opinoso's. The problem is your Portuguese.
There are no other imputs from other editors, nor are they going to be. I have explained this at lenght, and won't explain again. I am merely going to point to the most recent example of why nobody wants to edit those owned articles: the very effective exlusion of User:Lecen from editing them.
You have seen what happened with
What I am asking is pretty reasonable. A huge 500 page book is given as a source for some information. Not even an online version, but a paper version. I am asking for a page or a chapter, so that people can more easily see this information in the source. I am being evidently stonewalled. I am asking you, who are an admin here, to put some pressure so that this source becomes a little bit more precise.
As of now, I have researched the online versions of the book that I could find for that information, and I have not found it there. What should I do? Can I remove the information? Can I replace the offline source with an online one? What else?
I am seriously considering leaving Wikipedia. This would be a loss for Wikipedia, not for me. If I quit, you will have to deal with the fact that the only person editing those articles will be Opinoso. The quality of those articles, in this case, will be the quality of Opinoso's contributions. Are you earnestly comfortable with that? If you are, I am going to quit. If you aren't, either give me some reason to continue, or find other editors that can contribute there. Preferably editors that know something about Brazil and about demography. Ninguém (talk) 13:59, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- I'm neutral as to the content in these articles. I don't care if you, the other editor or someone else is the only one editing the articles. I'm handling this only as an admin watching behaviour as it has to do with policy. As for Portugeuse sources, see Wikipedia:Sources#Non-English_sources. Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, this is the English Wikipedia and language does have bearing on its content, systemic bias and all. Nobody said editing here was easy and I don't know any active editor here who gets what they want, content-wise, all the time. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:08, 13 July 2009 (UTC)]
- I'm neutral as to the content in these articles. I don't care if you, the other editor or someone else is the only one editing the articles. I'm handling this only as an admin watching behaviour as it has to do with policy. As for Portugeuse sources, see
I know one. But you have asked me to not comment on him.
In any case, good bye. I won't waste my time any more. You can keep your "encyclopaedia" with all its factual errors and abusive editors. Bom proveito! Ninguém (talk) 14:11, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Brazil
Ninguém, you have to chose between my version or Opinoso's version of the history section in the article Brazil. Until the other editors (beyond me and him) pick a side, that guy will keep causing disruption on Wikipedia. - --Lecen (talk) 00:25, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Ninguém, take a look at 10 points discussion. Comment on each point, please. --Lecen (talk) 17:14, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Trouble with Opinoso
Ninguém, I am having trouble with Opinoso again. He has baseless reverted sourced information at the sime time he called it "personal theories". See here. He also said that the renowned [Barsa] is not a reliable source. See here. he also again attacked me about the history section while it was discussed and settled by other editors. See here.
He simply reverts anything without even bothering to open a discussion thread or to wait other Editors opinions about it. I can not revert it back because it will become a revert war. How can I handle someone who has no respect for rules? - --Lecen (talk) 23:32, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- Oh no... oh no... oh no... And look who has appeared out of nowhere immediately after I've complained about Opinoso's behavior? That User:Grenzer22 guy! See here. I can't believe he is not a suckpuppet. Is there anyway to check both user's IPs? -
- That is not the only problem. There is an user called Auréola who made recent edits in the article. I did not agree with some of them and I created a topic in the discussion page to learn about the other editor's opinions about it. I did not change, erase or touched in anyway in what he wrote. Nothing. I just asked for other editor's opinions about it. I was amazed to see that he also used Darcy Ribeiro as source. What happened? This Auréola appeared in the discussion thread and take a look on what he wrote. In here, here and here.
- Just take a look at the links. See it by yourself. Tell me, Ninguém, who does you know in Wikipedia that always use Darcy Ribeiro as source, enjoy using the words "very weird" to bring suspicious about other editors motives, complain that only Brazilians should write in the article about Brazil and accuses other editors of having ideological motives behind their edits? Yes, him. Opinoso. Coincidence, perhaps. But coming from him... - --Lecen (talk) 17:18, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- I am not Opinoso. It is the third time I say it. I am someone who is concerned by what "free" wikipedia has exemplified to me. The vile distortion of Brazilian themes, a negative portrayal of Brazil in every single respect. Just like you, and Ninguém, I am worried this is the way our country is talked about, with lies, and negative theories. This is it. Believe me.
Grenzer22 (talk)Grenzer22Grenzer22 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:39, 16 November 2009 (UTC).
- It took me some time to understand what was Opinoso's strategy. Not I've got it. I thought he had reappeared only because of his fixation in any thing related to ethnicity. What he wants is to regain his old article by disrupting it. He managed to make it blocked. Now he keeps himself on endless discussions where he will never admit that he is wrong. What we have to do is to as I did on the discussion about the history section: get other editor's opinions to get into a consensus. There is already mine and your vote. He has his sockpuppet(s). What I think is the best is to get him banned from here. He is a troublemaker. He has done too much, it must be enough to get him expelled. - --Lecen (talk) 22:55, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- Por que você não me mostrou essa minha de ouro antes?!!!!! Caramba! Agora tenho como jogar esse cara para fora daqui! - --Lecen (talk) 20:02, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
- Well, you were right. I showed all of that to two administrators and do you know what they told me? "Can't do nothing about it" No matter how many times I say and show them that even when there are up to 6 editors against only Opinoso, they keep seeing only as a simple "content issue". Opinoso is a trouble-maker, he shouldnt and does not deserve to be in here. But for some reason that I do not know why, he get away no matter how many people complain or how many wrong things he does. - --Lecen (talk) 13:41, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- I think that you are referring to Gwen Gale and myself. I do not see this as a simple content issue and I don't think that she does either. Please read what she and I have written carefully, and then reply carefully. Then we will respond carefully and, where justified, firmly. But don't let the signal-to-noise ratio decline. -- Hoary (talk) 15:41, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Ninguém, I got four Geography books and all of them support our view. In absolutely everything: from Caboclos as majority in the Northeast, to Caboclo as a sub-category of Pardo, etc, etc... It will take some time to take into the computer and than translate it. Wowever, I could scan and send to you, if you want to. - --Lecen (talk) 20:03, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Hey man. I don't believe that you are making the best approach to deal with the matter. If we get into the "DNA" andl all that, the discussion will drag itseld indefinitely. I put SEVEN different books written here, in Brazil, about the matter, explaining what is Pardo. We must stick to what the experts classification, not trying to convince the other editors in here with mathematic numbers of gene pool. As José William Vesentini noticed, "these [official] data are very questionable, as they do not take in account the ethnic origin of the people (black or Indian ancestry, etc.), but only the color of skin. Moreover, the notion of 'Pardo' is not very rigorous, as it includes from very dark Mulattoes to Caboclos and Cafuzos." What we need is to get what Opinoso said and show to everyone that it does not make sense. He said that: 1) Caboclos are not the majority of the population; 2)Caboclo is a name that is not even used or recognized in the specialized fields and 3) Blacks are 85% of the population. I have seven different books that span through decades that reveal how the matter is seen in Brazil, he has a newspaper article. --Lecen (talk) 20:18, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- The answer is simple: you and I know very well how "flexible" it is his interpretation of sources. He is probably the only person I ever met that when he reads that the wall is blue he writes in Wikipedia that it is red. --Lecen (talk) 23:07, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- I was looking at some articles he contributes. Err... "contributes", I mean. For example, in Latin America, there are 0% Caboclos. That is right, 0%. The Brazilian people article is nothing more than a intimate look inside Opinoso's mind. Until recently I liked to write in history articles, but now I want to take a better look on other things. My plan is to perfect the article about Brazil, get it nominated for featured article and then move on to Brazilian people. I know very well that I end up bumping on him, but it will be necessary. Perhaps we should create somekind of "Anti-Opinoso Task Force". Its objective will not be to harass him, but only to create a strong barricade against his abuses. He made so many enemies around here that it will not be hard to get quite a few members. Another thing, we have to rely less on Administrators. Because in the end it will be similar to what happened to you (and many others before) and now to me: they will consider nothing more than a childsh fight between two editors. One complaining about Opinoso's abusive behavior is one thing, many, it will be another. - --Lecen (talk) 23:45, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- I am an administrator and I do not consider this a childish fight among editors, although it certainly has its childish aspects. Having Brazil made a featured article is, unfortunately, impossible in the short or medium term: even if all the editors miraculously agreed on the issues (and there's little chance of that), the FA people would say "300+ notes? Way too many!" And of course if you reduced their number there'd be complaints of a shortage of sourcing. The article has to depend more on other articles. Meanwhile, your notion of an "Anti-Opinoso Task Force" (even if immediately qualified by a declaration that the intent is not to harass) is perhaps the surest way to increase sympathy for him. Please think very hard before you write stuff like this. -- Hoary (talk) 00:24, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- Hard to imagine someone like him getting sympathy from someone. However, my suggestion was not to simply hunt him down, or track every move he makes. The idea is simple: anytime he lies (as he always does), or fabricate information (as he usually does), present a twisted view of a source (as he always does), attack and insult someone (always, always does), we would have a way better way of complaining with Administrators about his behavior. It would be similar to a Neighborhood Watch or something similar, not to harass an editor. And I do think very hard before I write anything, but I do believe that after all I saw coming from him, and how he always get away from everything bad he does, the least I could do is look after a way of protecting me and others. But as you told me, we should not lose our time discussing at this point Opinoso's behavior, but the content itseld that is being disputed. --Lecen (talk) 00:47, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- I am an administrator and I do not consider this a childish fight among editors, although it certainly has its childish aspects. Having Brazil made a featured article is, unfortunately, impossible in the short or medium term: even if all the editors miraculously agreed on the issues (and there's little chance of that), the FA people would say "300+ notes? Way too many!" And of course if you reduced their number there'd be complaints of a shortage of sourcing. The article has to depend more on other articles. Meanwhile, your notion of an "Anti-Opinoso Task Force" (even if immediately qualified by a declaration that the intent is not to harass) is perhaps the surest way to increase sympathy for him. Please think very hard before you write stuff like this. -- Hoary (talk) 00:24, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- I was looking at some articles he contributes. Err... "contributes", I mean. For example, in Latin America, there are 0% Caboclos. That is right, 0%. The Brazilian people article is nothing more than a intimate look inside Opinoso's mind. Until recently I liked to write in history articles, but now I want to take a better look on other things. My plan is to perfect the article about Brazil, get it nominated for featured article and then move on to Brazilian people. I know very well that I end up bumping on him, but it will be necessary. Perhaps we should create somekind of "Anti-Opinoso Task Force". Its objective will not be to harass him, but only to create a strong barricade against his abuses. He made so many enemies around here that it will not be hard to get quite a few members. Another thing, we have to rely less on Administrators. Because in the end it will be similar to what happened to you (and many others before) and now to me: they will consider nothing more than a childsh fight between two editors. One complaining about Opinoso's abusive behavior is one thing, many, it will be another. - --Lecen (talk) 23:45, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- The answer is simple: you and I know very well how "flexible" it is his interpretation of sources. He is probably the only person I ever met that when he reads that the wall is blue he writes in Wikipedia that it is red. --Lecen (talk) 23:07, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Hey man. I don't believe that you are making the best approach to deal with the matter. If we get into the "DNA" andl all that, the discussion will drag itseld indefinitely. I put SEVEN different books written here, in Brazil, about the matter, explaining what is Pardo. We must stick to what the experts classification, not trying to convince the other editors in here with mathematic numbers of gene pool. As José William Vesentini noticed, "these [official] data are very questionable, as they do not take in account the ethnic origin of the people (black or Indian ancestry, etc.), but only the color of skin. Moreover, the notion of 'Pardo' is not very rigorous, as it includes from very dark Mulattoes to Caboclos and Cafuzos." What we need is to get what Opinoso said and show to everyone that it does not make sense. He said that: 1) Caboclos are not the majority of the population; 2)Caboclo is a name that is not even used or recognized in the specialized fields and 3) Blacks are 85% of the population. I have seven different books that span through decades that reveal how the matter is seen in Brazil, he has a newspaper article. --Lecen (talk) 20:18, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Funny to see Opinoso saying that the word "Caboclo" does not exist while at the same he contributes to the article about it. I do agree with you that while we are always told to be very careful in everything we do, from talking with each other to how we write in the articles, no such warnings arrive to Opinoso. Ever. --Lecen (talk) 23:48, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- Opinoso will not be sanctioned. Just give up on that. You should have learned that by now. He is quite free to do whatever he wants. You must focus on the debate over the content. Opinoso has many, many flaws in the way he give his opinions. It is not hard to find holes in it and demolish it. Try to be simple and direct. People don't read long messages, just the short and easy to understand ones. Don't lose your time bringing more sources, quotes or something like that. People had enough. Just read what he wrote and demolish sentence by sentence. He wants to make of Brazil a giant Africa. It's not hard to prove how absurd that is. Cheers, --Lecen (talk) 18:52, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Please join the report here if you believe you have more evidence.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Opinoso_reported_by_User:Likeminas_.28Result:_.29
Likeminas (talk) 19:35, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
- Isn't that ironic? I said Gwen Gale that it would be a matter of time until another editor complain about Opinoso. That was what? 3-4 days ago? The guy is a freaking menace and he walks around freely like a model citizen. He should had been blocked 2 years ago. --Lecen (talk) 20:00, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Torture of Germans
I do know that Getúlio Vargas created several Concentration Camps in Brazil to keep German, Italian and Japanese immigrants. And I also know that he tried to prevent German descendants of speaking German and keeping their culture. How that was done, I confess that I don't know. Let me search about it in my books and I'll tell you. --Lecen (talk) 14:18, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- I hope you saw what i wrote in my talk page bout this matter. For what I understood, OP. said that Germans could be tortured if they speak German. Well, as usual, that's an absurd. It isn't even sourced. Why not simply remove? --Lecen (talk) 13:14, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
Possible sockpuppet in the area.
Check it out: [16][17][18] --Lecen (talk) 00:56, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
EL formating
Ninguém, as I am totally ignorant of Portuguese I am not able to comment knowledgably on this recent set of edits by you, but the signs I see are very good indeed. Please keep up the good work. However, if you can please format external links like this "[http://www.blahblahblah.br/etc/etc/blahblah.html title of page]", it would be welcome; the reader will see not "http://www.blahblahblah.br/etc/etc/blahblah.html" but instead the more palatable "title of page". Of course you can vary this where common sense dictates.
(Every week, I feel depressed anew by the width and depth of my ignorance of languages. Most recently, Talk:Nikos Economopoulos.) -- Hoary (talk) 02:58, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Os Brancos
Hi, you seem to be mass editing the article, has there been any discussion about this?
- Lookin just at the lede of the article, IMO, the version before you started mass editing it is preferable and closer related to the MOS. I am tempted to revert to that version but I will discuss it with you first. Off2riorob (talk) 01:05, 6 December 2009 (UTC)]
"I am tempted": I guess that he succumbed to the temptation.
Stay cool, even though this request is hardly justifiable in the circumstances. -- Hoary (talk) 02:27, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
- With my experience with Opinoso in Brazil article, what I can tell you for sure is that he will drive you to endless discussions until you get tired of it or the talk page becomes impossible to read which will certainly drive away other editors. Yes, it's an awful tactic: it's make hard, if not impossible to reach a consensus. What am I talking? Opinoso doesnt care about consensus. You will never, ever, see him trying to reach a consensus. Everyone is wrong, he is right or until he gets blocked by an Administrator. What makes me surprise is the fact that editor Off2riorob never appeared in the article before. Now he is all interested in White Brazilians? And also, remember that you will not get other editors' opinions on the subject. Simply because there aren't any. All the ones that existed departed due to Opinoso's behavior. --Lecen (talk) 14:28, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
- Also, remember that Portuguese families indeed came to Brazil during the colonial era. The idea that only men came or that most were exiled is erroneous. I can give you a page and the quote from Charles R. Boxer's work where it tells that families, including women and children came to Brazil. Ow, and before I forget: if you noticed well, Off2riorob talks, talks and talks, but all he trully mean is: "I don't like your edits." He doesn't write "What you wrote is wrong because another author said X about it" or something similar. And he simply reverted everything you did, which is wonderful, isn't (and yes, I am being ironic)? --Lecen (talk) 14:42, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
- Take a brake in the article for now, if possible. You are getting into an endless discussion with Off2Rio that will make the discussion page impossible to be followed. This is the tactic Opinoso used and that drove away other editors from participating in the discussion. Off2Rio has not brought sources to oppose your changes. What he did was nothing more than the fact that he did not like your changes. Let an administrator settle the matter. --Lecen (talk) 00:09, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
I've brought up the matter here at "WP:AN/I". -- Hoary (talk) 04:48, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
White Brazilian
Hello Ninguém,
As a very Brazilian person, I have taken a look at the "ethnic" sections related to Brazil, and they are generally very wrong. They project a racialism that does not exist in Brazil (a foreign and biased racialism). Not that there is no racism in Brazil. The presentation of both the "white" and the "black" sections is totally unfair. The "white" section concentrates on proving how "non white" "white" Brazilians are (from the point of view of "real whiteness"; lol totally absurd!), and the "black" section on how "black" the Brazilians are. In the "white" section a 5% non Euro ancestry Brazilian person is labelled as "non white", whereas in the "black" section anyone with a greater than say 5% 10% African ancestry is "black". There is an aggressive mood also, making it look like as if the relative notions of "race" would be "very wrong" in Brazil, when that's very far from the truth: race is relative, it is a social construct, and this is what leading experts on the field say, not me. The "white section" could include photos of "white Brazilians" too, with their DNA tests, just like the "black section": Tiazinha, the "brown" singer from the interior of Paraíba (99,9% European, who does not know any of her European ancestors, by the way; all of them "colonial white"), José Sarney, from the interior of Maranhão (99,9% European; all of them "colonial white") and Ivete Sangalo, Brazilian singer from the interior of Bahia who is 99,2% European and only 0,4% SSA and only 0,4% Native American, along with Zeca Camargo, another "brown" Brazilian, who is about 96% European (colonial times ancestry here as well), among many others like them, Paulo Coelho, for example, totally European, colonial ancestry from Ceará and Pará. They did not know of their ancestry and they do not care about it either, Paulo Coelho said: "how boring to be totally European! I wanted to be Moorish, Jewish, "black" and native American!" :) Ivete Sangalo complained that she did not have as much African as she wished she had, and Zeca Camargo celebrated his 2% Native American heritage!!
Cheers Grenzer22 (talk)Grenzer22Grenzer22 (talk)
Control Brazilian subjects
Ninguém,
You have must seen it. There is control, some people out there control Brazilian topics. Brazilians are not allowed to express themselves at English wikipedia. All of what has happened so far to Brazilians here at English wikipedia is only but a tiny example of how we are presented abroad, in many other circles, not only wikipedia. There are many prejudices out there against the Brazilians, and some people think they are entitled to tell us (and to tell also to the rest of the world) who we are and what is our past. Unfortunately as a whole Latin America is too weak to defend herself, we are the target of all sorts of prejudiced people from elsewhere. The "white Brazilian" topic in particular is full of mistakes, some clearly intentionally done. Just to let you know that you and Lecen are not alone out there. There are other Brazilians who have also felt the disrespect and bias that has been shown against us several times throughout several Brazilian topics at the English wikipedia.
saudações
Grenzer22 (talk)Grenzer22Grenzer22 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:45, 8 December 2009 (UTC).
Ok
Okay, I will moderate myself. But still I find it difficult to accept that Opinoso is an ethnic Brazilian, that his ancestors have lived here. He may have been born at Brazil, but he probably identifies with something else. That's my impression, definitely. Besides it is not only about him. But I will restrain myself, for sure.
Cheers
Grenzer22 (talk)Grenzer22Grenzer22 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:32, 8 December 2009 (UTC).
What is going on?
Am I the only one who still has no clue of what the hell is the problem in the
- Ninguém, I think you should remove your last message in the talk page. You are losing the focus and bringing more ammo to Opinoso and anyone who is tired of any discussion that he is part of. If OfftoRio created that section, let him talk first. he is again trying to evade from taking a position, although he created all this mess. Focus on him and what he says. Forget about Opinoso. Ask to Off2Rio for sources that goes against your edits. If there aren't any, then what he did should be reverted and the article must be unblocked. --Lecen (talk) 18:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- You should erase again what you wrote. Havwn't you noticed what it's going on, yet? It was Off2Rio that caused all this mess and it's him who has to give explanations, not you. Everytime you write and write explaining yourself gives the impression that you are wrong and his is indeed right. If he does not bring reasons and sources for what he did, all of it will have be considered vandalism. Everytime we ask him what it's wrong and what sources he has all he does is to evade the matter. It is him who should be put against the wall, not you. Erase your message, let the section small and we will use it as a proof that he is just making everyone a fool. --Lecen (talk) 19:44, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- To be honest, I would prefer it if comments that were posted were left posted, if users feel that the comment was posted b in error I would say it is preferable if the comments were struck rather than removed, it is easier to see what actually happened, posting a comment and them removing it is wrong, please take a little more time to consider before comments are posted and then the comments will not require removal as an after thought, thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 19:56, 9 December 2009 (UTC)]
- To be honest, I would prefer it if comments that were posted were left posted, if users feel that the comment was posted b in error I would say it is preferable if the comments were struck rather than removed, it is easier to see what actually happened, posting a comment and them removing it is wrong, please take a little more time to consider before comments are posted and then the comments will not require removal as an after thought, thanks.
- You should erase again what you wrote. Havwn't you noticed what it's going on, yet? It was Off2Rio that caused all this mess and it's him who has to give explanations, not you. Everytime you write and write explaining yourself gives the impression that you are wrong and his is indeed right. If he does not bring reasons and sources for what he did, all of it will have be considered vandalism. Everytime we ask him what it's wrong and what sources he has all he does is to evade the matter. It is him who should be put against the wall, not you. Erase your message, let the section small and we will use it as a proof that he is just making everyone a fool. --Lecen (talk) 19:44, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- Ele está apenas enrolando e você está caindo no jogo dele. Está mais do claro que o sujeito é um vândalo que não está preocupado com algo no artigo, mas sim em frescar com a nossa cara. Se ele tivesse algum interesse honesto, teria dito o que estava errado nas suas edições. Reclamar que se tratam apenas de "edições em massa" não faz sentido algum. E por mais que nós perguntemos o que está errado ele simplesmente muda de assunto ou fica falando bobagens. Desde o começo eu avisei ao Hoary que era tudo uma grande sacanagem e que ele deveria era ter desbloqueado o artigo e proíbido o sujeito de reverter a não ser que ele tivesse boas razões. Nada foi feito e cá estamos, em mais uma longa e estúpida discussão. Logo ficaremos conhecidos como a dupla encrenqueira, que se mete em discussões o tempo todo que acabam resultando em artigos bloqueados e intervenções de administradores. Da próxima vez, não cometa o mesmo erro: simplesmente exija que o administrador interfira e que proíba as modificações do outro editor a não ser que ele tenha um bom motivo. --Lecen (talk) 21:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- Please don't refer to good faith editors as vandals, assume good faith, I also suggest that for clarity although I can read them, that you should comment in English. Off2riorob (talk) 21:36, 9 December 2009 (UTC)]
- Please don't refer to good faith editors as vandals, assume good faith, I also suggest that for clarity although I can read them, that you should comment in English.
- If I wanted your opinion I would have written in the talk page of that article. If I am writing in here, it's because I am talking with Ninguém and only with him. --Lecen (talk) 21:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- Please take care to assume good faith as regards other users wherever you are and whatever language you do it in, thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 21:41, 9 December 2009 (UTC)]
- Please take care to assume good faith as regards other users wherever you are and whatever language you do it in, thanks.
- If I wanted your opinion I would have written in the talk page of that article. If I am writing in here, it's because I am talking with Ninguém and only with him. --Lecen (talk) 21:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- Chega a ser hilário as bobagens que ele escreve. Veja o que ele falou agora no artigo: é necessário que todas as pesquisas sejam incluídas, assim como versões. Que pesquisas? Que versões? Ele não colocou nada! E sugerir que você fique brincando de castelo de areia com o texto do artigo no seu espaço privado é ridículo. O que ele quer é que o artigo não seja modificado. Você tem alguma dúvida ainda de que ele está ligado ao nosso velho amigo? --Lecen (talk) 21:44, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- O Hoary criou uma nova seção na talk page. Eu não irei me envolver mais. Caso você o faça, seria preferível que antes de perder o seu tempo reescrevendo completamente o texto que pergunte algo muito simples: "afinal, como posso saber o que reescrever se Off2Rio não explicitou o que há de errado e por que está errado e de acordo com quais autores está errado?" P.S.: Você já percebeu que o Off2rio está implicitamente intimidando o Hoary? Está tentando colocar o Hoary numa saia justa e assim impedí-lo de se envolver de qualquer maneira no artigo. Resultado final: o artigo continuará intocado. O que me surpreende é que esse sujeito nunca apareceu antes no artigo. Por que tamanho empenho, então? --Lecen (talk) 01:14, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
Pardon me for gatecrashing, but Off2riorob has asked on my page too that if people discuss his edits they should do so in English. I think he has a point.
May I add that I'm starting to enjoy "reading" in Portuguese, especially when it appears to be about me. You're welcome to say just about anything you wish in Portuguese about my edits; and, time and energy permitting, I'll have fun attempting to guess what it means. (Above, is Rob intimidating me? Am I intimidating him? Is he intimate with me? Etc.) Please don't spoil the fun by explaining.
Amazing discovery of the day: pt:Brasileiros brancos (mostly by this fellow) has no discussion. Nothing at all. Redlinked. How was that possible? -- Hoary (talk) 15:25, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
- The answer is quite simple: check the history log. It has so far only 10 edits. The first one (and also the one that created the article) was made in October 14, 2009. That is, less than 2 months ago. The text of the article is nothing more than a translation of the English article to Portuguese. Now you know why is redlinked. --Lecen (talk) 15:48, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
- Well, you are not going to believe it once you come back. Three editors (including me) requested to return to your last edit so that then we could start improving the article. Seeing that he was clearly going to "lose" Off2Riobob did what he could: requested the article to be erased. "If I can't have the article in the way I want, no one shall have it then." Wonderful, isn't?--Lecen (talk) 20:04, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
- Ninguém, I won't be able o help you on witing the text from those articles as I am focusing all my energies on Pedro II of Brazil. However, I could scan the pages from books I have about the subject and send to you through e-mail. If you find something useful, you could use it as source. So, what do you think? --Lecen (talk) 16:06, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- Off2Riorob has made his suggestion for the lead. Accordng to his suggestion, Japanese are white. Yes, white. And also, 15% of the so called whites would be considered blacks in US demographics censuses. I thought that in US race was based on self-report. Unless our friend is using as source that racist "one drop rule" theory. Anyway, is more than clear that he doesn't know absolutely nothing about the subject. You're going to have a lot of trouble, be ready. Because there is nothing harder than trying to discuss something with someone who is a complete ignorant on the subject. These kind of people are the ones who are most stubborn to keep their views. --Lecen (talk) 23:53, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry, my friend, but I won't get involved on that article anymore. It reminds me a lot of that first discussion with Opinoso, where I was making a serious work and he was fabricating information to prove his point. It's useless to spend time in a debate with someone who clearly doesn't understand nothing about the subject. That Off2Riorob is a waste of time. That's what he is. You should let that article to rot alone and that's it. Make it clear too all those administrators that they didn't handle the issue in the correct way. I knew since the beginning that the discussion didn't make any sense. --Lecen (talk) 10:16, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- Having done so much work, why give up now? I have not forgotten the materials you added to my talk page. The main reason I've done little on that article for the last day or so is this injustice. -- Hoary (talk) 14:41, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for your note, Ninguém. I have no idea what frustrations you are going through, but my advice is to just look at this as a hobby, keep yourself cool... and avoid "tough cops" if you can :) Regards. Dekkappai (talk) 17:53, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- Just ignore Opinoso. Let him talk alone. Ask the same to Grenzer. Do not feed him. --Lecen (talk) 11:08, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- He will try to use the same old tactic: talk, talk and talk and carry the discussion to a dead end. hat I think it's strange is the fact that if you take a look at his contributions he made edits only in the article White Brazilian. To someone like him, who was everywhere everytime it seems odd. Perhaps he created a new account to start afresh? --Lecen (talk) 11:26, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Brazil
I need your help on article Brazil. There is an editor who is clearly behaving as he owns the article. I tried to make several changes into the article to keep it smaller and in accordance with Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries rules and I also took as model other featured class articles such as Canada, India and Peru. I even warned everyone of what I was going to do 24h before and when I began editing I kept reporting everything I did on the talk page. However, editor Rahlgd simply reverted everything. If yout ake a look at the history log of the article only he can make edits. --Lecen (talk) 01:12, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
- Careful not to feed the troll. That's what it wants you to do. That's why everybody has ignored it. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 15:25, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Brazil
Hi! If you want to help me keep the editions of sub-section "Culture" in the article Brazil (as they were like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brazil&diff=prev&oldid=324617070), I thank you. Auréola (talk) 19:10, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, Ninguém. So help me decrease the size of the text, without sacrificing its quality? Thank you. Auréola (talk) 03:14, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
- Not going to lose my time in there. Waist of time. The greatest proff that off2riorob does not want any change in the text is that he did not participate in the discussion in the other article as Hoary proposed. He knows that by leaving you and Hoary discussing with a wall the article will be kept unchanged and that's it. Leave it like that, the administrators should have requested to him to bring sources to opose your edits since the beginning. None of them did that. The guy appeared and said "I didn't like it. Revert it" and it's a good argument. Just wonderful. --Lecen (talk) 02:46, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
White Brazilian
Isn't amazing? As soon as the article was unprotected Off2riorob complained of edits in it and so it became protected again. Now he simply vanished and the discussion went dead once again. And so the article stays forever unchanged. Will it take much longer to an administrator notice that this guy is only messing around? --Lecen (talk) 10:28, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Immigration to brazil
You are crazy or stupid?! ... added at 18:24, 28 January 2010 by Hentzer
- This remark is a little incoherent. Was it intended as a question or an exclamation, or hadn't you decided which of the two? Perhaps you would like to elucidate. If so, do of course bear in mind the constraints of civility. -- Hoary (talk) 00:38, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
and now Chile
I never realized that I could read Spanish. But I do like to think that I also never acquired an "ability" to read Spanish in perversely inverted form.
]Opinoso behaves arbitrarily. Trying to own Brazilian topics
Just to let you know that Opinoso has once again started deleting messages posted by others (me in this case), without justification. I posted genetic studies different from the ones he posted, along other with other information, all of them correct. He has opened a thread against me now. Grenzer22 (talk) 22:25, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
EDP Political Position
--Silvatici4 (talk) 08:37, 19 March 2010 (UTC) Dear Ninguem, I see you have changed the Political Position of the English Democratic Party to 'Far-Right' and have cited this source: http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cache:C0khcR_wjBYJ:scholar.google.com/+%22english+democrats%22+%22right+wing%22&hl=pt-BR&as_sdt=2000
The source it too long to discuss in detail but this is the definition of 'Far Right' in the citation:
'Our model posits that extreme right ideology relies on twofundamental dimensions – a negative conception of identity, which may express itself culturally(xenophobia) or civically (populism), and authoritarianism, which may be conceived socially(reactionary), or politically (repressive). These two dimensions create four possible quadrants ofextreme right ideology: xenophobic-reactionary, xenophobic-repressive, populist-reactionary, andpopulist-repressive.'
The definition of 'Far Right' used by Michael Bruter and Sarah Harrison on the thesis does not agree with the Wikipedia definition of 'Far Right':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_right
I am curious as to how the EDP can be described as 'Far Right' when they are part of the 'Alliance for Democracy'. May I suggest you take a look at which other parties who are in this alliance?
Do you think the citation is a good source?
To be a good source don't you think that you should use a source which is judging the EDP with the most recent manifesto?
Kind Regards
Silvatici4
--Silvatici4 (talk) 20:44, 19 March 2010 (UTC)Dear Ninguem,
Good idea to have a few people express their opinions about this. I look forward to the outcome.
BTW, I am rather inexperienced at how to communicate correctly on Wikipedia so I hope I am doing the correct thing by adding to this note in this way. Please correct me if I am doing this wrong.
Kind Regards
Silvatici4
Current work
I believe that you are doing a great job by editing the articles that Opinoso messed up. Everything has dubious sources and a certain ‘agenda’. Wikipedia has to be based on facts and be neutral. It is very hard to find one Brazilian editor that agrees with his writing, on the opposite side, I can name over a dozen that dislike his style. If you need any help cleaning this mess let me know. I showed a great concern regarding his sources in the past; as a result I was blocked by one of his protectors, normally clueless people. I almost lost any hope in this encyclopedia at the time, but we should not let this individual spread misinformation. If you need any help with your work, please let me know. Best regards, Paulista01 (talk) 16:28, 6 May 2010 (UTC)