User talk:Pail~enwiki

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huh, thank you. but i'm not an absolute novice - as i've stated on my page, i've already got some experience at the German Wikipedia. but either way, thank you very much for giving me such a warm welcome! --Pail 20:40, 8 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Pail, thanks for your contributions to the grammar articles. Sorry for reverting one part of the Greek grammar thing, but I just had difficulty believing it (even though I see you are a native speaker): "μιλιθήσαστε"? Even if that's a typo for "μιλιθήκατε", are you really saying you mix up perfective and imperfective aspect in those forms? Like: "Την ώρα που στεκόμουν με το Γιώργο και μιλιόμαστανμιλιθήκαμε, ήρθε ξαφνικά η Ελένη"? That would be really new to me. - As for your other changes, I hope you don't mind me integrating them into the tables. I think at least είστε is actually far more common than είσαστε, isn't it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Huh, that's quite a lot of things. I've heard both "μιλιθήσαστε" and "μιλιθήκατε" being used, and when I'm speaking, I prefer "μιλιθήσαστε". I just feel it's kinda more correct. And, as for your example sentence, I'd certainly prefer "μιλιθήκαμε". I've never ever heard "μιλιόμασταν" before, I just read it in a few books, and I think it's Katharevousa and clearly NOT Demotic. To use it would be like starting to adress the people around you with "thou". Eίστε and είσαστε are equally common, είσαστε is more like a neologism. --Pail 17:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, maybe the example wasn't optimal, now that I think of it, you'd be most likely in that context to say simply "μιλάγαμε" anyway, right? - So what about: σταθήσαστε instead of στεκόσασταν? πλυθήσαστε instead of πλενόσασταν? βαρεθήσαστε instead of βαριόσασταν? All in the syntactic frame of "while you were X-ing, ..." - All of these sound terribly unknown to my non-native-speaker-who-has-learned-standard-Greek-to-some-fluency ear. And I can't find them in Google either. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

God, I never ever learned the grammar! I can just say that nobody I've ever talked to uttered the endings -όμασταν or -σασταν. People just don't speak like that, that's obsolete! Maybe some people in some villages might speak like this, but in Athens, where my relatives live, I've never heard that. The forms I'd use are those: σταθήκατε, πλυθήκατε, βαριόσαστε. But I'm not sure, it's easier when I just speak and don't think much about it. --Pail 18:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, okay, βαριόσαστε I can understand. :-) But parallel to that would be στεκόσαστε, πλενόσαστε, μιλιόσαστε, not *σταθήσαστε, *πλυθήσαστε, *μιληθήσαστε, wouldn't they? Present stem (imperfective/paratatikos), not aorist stem. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OH GOD, you confuse me. xD I'll just make a nice little table, because that's getting to complicated over time, since the German part of my brain tends to confuse imperfect and aorist forms.

στεκόμαι		πλένω		μιλάω
imperfect	aorist	imperfect	aorist	imperfect	aorist
στεκόμουνα	στάθηκα	πλενόμουνα	πλύθηκα	μιλαγα	μίλησα
στεκόσουνα	στάθηκες	πλενόσουνα	πλύθηκες	μιλαγες	μίλησες
στεκότανε (or -ταναι, I honestly don't know, both seems probable)	στάθηκε	πλενότανε/-ταναι	πλύθηκε	μιλαγε	μίλησε
στεκονόμαστε	στάθηκαμε	πλενόμαστε	πλύθηκαμε	μιλαγαµε	μίλησαµε
στεκονόσαστε	στάθηκατε	πλενόσαστε	πλύθηκατε	μιλαγατε	μίλησατε
στεκονόνταν	στάθηκαν	πλεινόνταν	πλύθηκαν	μιλαγααν	μίλησααν

Everything clear now? --Pail 19:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, getting clearer. I guess your intution that the "-αστε" forms are more common than the "-ασταν" forms is plausible. Feel free to move them to the front in the article if you like. (I must check which of them my in-laws use, I honestly have no idea :-) I'm a bit surprised about "στεκονόνταν" and "πλεινόνταν" - I'd have expected forms with the accent one syllable earlier ("στεκόνονταν"), but I think I've seen yours too somewhere. Do you really mean the "ει" in "πλεινόνταν"? - In the μιλάω column you've used the active forms, not the passive forms, of course (μιλιέμαι/μιλήθηκα).

Sorry for being pedantic - this is the linguist-plus-foreign-learner speaking here! :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I think the accents depend on dialect. I pronounce it like that, but I don't know if it would be written like that in a newspaper or someting like that, as I've got a slight Athens dialect... and as far as I know there isn't a standard form of Demotic, so it doesn't matter anyway. - And, as for the "ει" - since I never learned Greek at school, I can only guess, I don't know if it's correct or not.

I don't mind if you are pedantic or not - I love languages, and I love explaining them. So, keep asking, if you wish. --Pail 20:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Pail, I saw you were creating a lot of pages for Metallica songs. You might want to have a look at the

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