User talk:Sasanack

Hello, Sasanack, and

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a

You called removal of your edit vandalism, which it certainly wasn't by our definition. You still haven't found a source for the reaction to the material from her book. See [[WP::RS]] for the sorts of sources we would be looking for. Not blogs or personal websites, something mainstream. See also

talk) 22:08, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

@Dougweller; Ryden, being the controversial figure that she is, is also regarded by some as a visionary which can also mean prophet. Visonaries (or prophets) often record messages which some will interpret as prophecy, others will scoff at. The choice for them to do that is entirely theirs BUT they should at least be given a chance to read it and determine for themselves. Arkatakor (talk) 22:56, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, this is slightly complicated. First I'll have to note that "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth" and "To show that it is not original research, all material added to articles must be attributable to a reliable, published source appropriate for the content in question" so yes, you would need to find a source for the reaction of readers. See

WP:RS

for the criteria for such sources, which don't include blogs, a lot of websites, etc.

Another relevant part of policy that relates to this is

WP:UNDUE

. In other words, one source would probably not show that this is significant (as the word is used in our policy).

If you want to discuss this further the talk page might be a better venue.

talk) 06:55, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

The letter from Cardinal Ratzinger, as quoted on the genuinely 3rd party EWTN website (which is actually against Vassula!) confirms the dialogue. Please can you explain why this can not be mentioned on the Wikipedia page? Sasanack (talk) 17:55, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Vassula Ryden discussion (copied from the Dispute resolution noticeboard shortly before the discussion was closed)

Filer has edit warred heavily on the article and has not rebutted any of

Later, from 2001 to 2004, a thorough dialogue took place between Ryden and the CDF. At the conclusion of the dialogue, a letter from Ryden was published supplying useful clarifications regarding her marital situation, as well as some difficulties which had been suggested in the earlier Notification. On 10 July 2004, Cardinal Ratzinger wrote to some Episcopal Conferences informing them of this. [1] The letter and its clarifications are available on the internet as well as in the published books of the True Life in God messages.

And the citation is to http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/cdfrydn3.htm. It appears that the material is relevant to the article, but the issue hinges on the source ... does it meet the

Yes, the above contains the item I am trying to insert (although I'm open to a change in wording). The reason this item is important is because in 1995 the Vatican issued a negative document about Vassula. This item is referred to in the Vassula page with EWTN being the reference. But I am being blocked from inserting information about the positive dialogue that took place a few years later, using a similar EWTN reference!.

There is no issue about the existence of the letter from Cardinal Ratzinger about the dialogue, it is available on this site but I am not allowed to reference that. Detailed and accurate information about the entire dialogue is available here but I am also not allowed to use that.

Surely it goes against all the principles of Wikipedia to prevent highly relevant information being made available for no good reason other than (apparently) it is viewed to be propaganda because someone who supports Vassula is inserting the information!--Sasanack (talk) 08:21, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The primary source and associated text is being inserted to infer that Vassula has more acceptance from the Catholic church and that the 1995 notification is possibly no longer valid, which effectively misleads. there is already a very lengthy discussion here: [1]. I also think editors who have no particular interest in Vassula, such as myself, are perfectly positioned to objectively look at the issues and do not see why that would be an issue. I also note that you have not shown here the particular text you want added and the source. Also, if the material is important then a reliable non-primary source would have highlighted it, but they haven't. I also think the reasons for not including the text have already been mentioned repeatedly on the talk page.

talk) 12:32, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

IRWolfie's objection that the insertion is designed to "infer" various things, explains why he is objecting to the insertion! Of course the dialogue of 2001-2004 changes the picture of Vassula's stance with the Vatican. That is why it is important and why it is quite wrong to block it from the Wikipedia page. A later letter from Cardinal Levada indeed confirms his view that the 1995 Notification remains valid but that letter also confirms the 2001-2004 dialogue which is being blocked from the Wikipedia page. I should add that most of the discussion on the talk page has been about inserting details of the dialogue from the www.cdf-tlig.org website. Despite this being the most suitable reference, I accept that Wikipedia doesn't like that kind of site, consequently I am using, instead, the EWTN website reference that has been accepted by everyone until now as appropriate for Wikipedia. To respond to IRWolfie's other point that I have not shown here the text I want to insert, I draw his attention to Noleander's 'Comment' which includes the text which, I say again, I am ready to modify if appropriate.--Sasanack (talk) 13:36, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is no reason why the self published opinions of a Supporter of vassula's should be reported as fact. you appear to be effectively trying to get the opinons of this supporter included indirectly.

talk) 14:22, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

• 'Note Another SPA, Arkatakor, who was posting on the same issue has iniated an identical thread at
  talk) 14:25, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply
  ]

EWTN is not a great secondary source, but their summary of the Vatican CDF's four Ryden-related documents here fails to mention dialogue, positive or otherwise. TLIG.ORG i.e. Ryden's supporters, appear to be the only one that is advancing the idea of "positive dialogue". - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:31, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

With respect, have you actually read any of these documents? I quote from Cardinal Ratzinger's letter which is the 3rd document on your linked page: Afterwards, and at her request, a thorough dialogue followed. At the conclusion of this dialogue, a letter of Mrs. Ryden dated 4 April 2002 was subsequently published in the latest volume of "True Life in God"--Sasanack (talk) 14:51, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned on the article Talk page, there are lots of words and phrases contained in those primary sources. Which ones should Wikipedia emphasize? Which ones should Wikipedia overlook? Depends on your point of view. Which is why Wikipedia editors

WP:UNDUE emphasis on fringe or non-notable points of view in our articles. - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:57, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

Whilst you have now succesfully clarified for me the difference between a primary source and a secondary source, I am unclear whether you are saying a primary source is better than a secondary source or vice versa? It all seems a rather academic to me. Cardinal Ratzinger's letter is not very long, maybe you are ok about it being printed on the Wikipedia page and then people can interpret it whatever way they want?--Sasanack (talk) 16:10, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Re being unclear whether a primary source is better than a secondary source, I believe that

WP:PRIMARY will answer all of your questions. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:22, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

Sasanack, I think the

undue emphasis guidelines. The mainstream independent sources that have mentioned Ryden's status with the church as of 2005 merely note that the Vatican has issued warnings about Ryden, they don't go into any detail or analysis such as you wish to add. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:56, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

In which case, are you agreeable to me inserting something like: "Later, from 2001 to 2004, Ryden was in dialogue with the CDF which ended with the Prefect, Cardinal Ratzinger, sending a clarification letter to some Bishop's Conferences" with the EWTN site as reference?--Sasanack (talk) 18:08, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No because that emphasizes a trivial detail that hasn't been emphasized in a secondary source. However (and other non-

Roman Catholic stance section to summarize EWTN's summary of those four letters (clearly attributing it to EWTN and linking to it as the cited source). That way readers clicking on the source get links to the individual letters, and WP gets a dispassionate. TLIG.ORG-spin-free overview of the RC church's correspondence. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:14, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

I don't think that's a viable option. EWTN is not a relaible source for the interpretation of Vatican documents. They lack credible expertise and do not have a sufficient reputation for fact checking. They're pretty low on the food chain as far as Catholic information sources go, and I would never use them for anything that's controversial, like this. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 18:55, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How can you say that "a thorough dialogue" (as described by Cardinal Ratzinger) between the CDF and Vassula is a trivial detail?? Nevertheless, as a way forward, I am open to a re-writing of the Roman Catholic stance which, as it stands, is highly misleading and inadequate. However, I don't know what Arkatakor's view would be. For the sake of the dispute editors, there seems to be only 2 pro-Vassula editors able to edit the Vassula page as it is currently locked.--Sasanack (talk) 18:53, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Editors should be editing neutrally, and not pro- anything. That you consider yourself pro-Vassula in your editing and want more for "balance" by gettting more pro-vassula editors to edit is worrying and suggests a

talk) 10:28, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

If it is more than a trivial detail then we would have a independent secondary source to make that connection.

talk) 10:54, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

Some useful comments have now been added on another noticeboard which are relevant to all this. I think it is fairly clear from the above that a group of editors are blocking a piece of factual information which upsets them and it appears that there is no easy way to stop them. As Fifelfoo says on the other noticeboard about the best source of information about the CDF/Vassula dialogue, "The treatment of Hvidt's work above, and on the article's talk page, is frankly appalling.". Yet Wikipedia seems not to have any way to counteract such behaviour by editors. Nevertheless, I will continue to try to find other WP processes to deal with this problem.--Sasanack (talk) 10:40, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You may want to declare your conflict of interest as the owner of the tlig.org website. - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:00, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have never hidden the fact that I am a supporter of Vassula and promote the messages wherever I can. I am neither the creator nor administrator of the tlig.org website although I have a responsibility for the domain name. As I have explained before, one would expect supporters of someone like Vassula to be the main contibutors to a page of information about her. It has certainly been exasperating to deal with editors, who clearly knew virtually nothing about her or her mission, deleting material in such a 'gung ho' manner. Again, I repeat that the editors who are blocking information do appear to be irreligious and this appears to be their motivation in involving themselves in the Vassula page.--Sasanack (talk) 14:49, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've opened a thread related to this at COIN.

talk) 14:58, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

...At Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Sasanack. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:23, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

COIN has closed with agreement that Sasanack does have a conflict of interest.

talk) 08:59, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

What a pity that the Wikipedia dispute resolution system can happily make solemn pronouncements on conflicts of interest yet cannot do anything to correct the blocking from Wikipedia of highly relevant factual information about Vassula. For the record, Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict) wrote in 2004 that, "this Congregation published a Notification in 1995 on the writings of Mrs. Vassula Ryden. Afterwards, and at her request, a thorough dialogue followed. At the conclusion of this dialogue, a letter of Mrs. Ryden dated 4 April 2002 was subsequently published in the latest volume of "True Life in God" The original letter can be viewed here and the translation on the 3rd party website (which is negative about Vassula) here. Why is Wikipedia not able to show this information? --Sasanack (talk) 20:31, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "Why is Wikipedia not able to show this information?". have you read

WP:RS? I believe that the answer to your question is there. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:06, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

EWTN is a perfectly reliable and appropriate reference source and is used on the Vassula page elsewhere. So I repeat, why is the information being blocked? Also, just in case you haven't read the words of Wikipedia's founder a month or so ago on his talk page: "I believe that the most effective change we can make to policy in this area is for WP:V to be changed to move the words further apart, so that "verifiability, and not truth" tends to go away as a mantra. It is false. It doesn't describe how we work, nor does it describe how we should work.". Sadly, we have here an excellent illustration of Wikipedia acting just in the way Mr Wales is complaining about.--Sasanack (talk) 07:54, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I, like Curb Chain, Noleander, and Guy Macon, am a regular mediator/clerk here at DRN.:

• Comment re Jimbo: Though I think from your use of the word "complaining" you may know this already, but that statement by Jimbo was
  WP:V that he believes needs to be made. He wasn't happy about either the rejection or the manner in which the rejection came about, but he also made clear that he didn't want people to edit war over it based on his opinion. Also be aware that Jimbo has also said
  that "as a general rule, I think that almost any argument, on any topic, which has premises beginning with 'Jimbo said...' is a pretty weak argument. Surely the merits of the proposal should be primary, not what I happen to think."

There are two points to make about the EWTN references on the Vassula page. The editors who are blocking the insertion of information about the Vatican-Vassula dialogue are quite happy with the EWTN reference for the Notification information and the Levada letter, but when the reference is used for the Ratzinger document it suddenly becomes an unsuitable reference! EWTN (who are NOT Vassula friendly) correctly list four documents, yet my editor friends are blocking just the one document which refers to the dialogue. And yes, the blocking is achieved by these editors instantly reverting any insertion of the item about the dialogue, followed by accusations of warring if I revert them. With regard to the suitability of EWTN as a suitable reference, I fail to see why it is unsuitable. Noleander says the site "is not a rock-solid scholarly source". Well, probably not, but do all citations need to refer to 'rock-solid scholarly sources'? Undoubtedly the best reliable source of all the dealings of Vassula with the Vatican is the cdf-tlig.org site but this has been rejected out of hand because the owner of the site is a supporter of Vassula. But I am happy to see that editors have now come forward challenging that assumption.

• Mostly-rhetorical inquiry: In light of the Vatican's subsequent statement in 2007, I'm not at all certain why this 2004 statement is worth arguing about. What do you, Sasanack, see that it adds to the article? (For reasons I'm about to explain, this is mostly a rhetorical question at this point and place in time, though you are free to answer it if you care to do so.)

It is important to recognize that the 1995 Notification and the 2007 letter are effectively warnings and are not rulings. The Vatican has no jurisdiction over Vassula who is Greek Orthodox. Also, neither document involved any dialogue with Vassula on any level. The ONLY dialogue that has taken place between Vassula and the Vatican is that which took place between 2001 and 2004 and it resulted in the positive letter from Cardinal Ratzinger which is being blocked from Wikipedia. And Cardinal Ratzinger is now the present Pope. Hiding this information from the Wikipedia page totally destroys the neutrality of the Roman Catholic stance section.

• Possible ways forward: There is a mechanism here at Wikipedia for the inclusion of material which would be otherwise excluded by policy if the community believes that its inclusion is in the best interest of the encyclopedia: The
  request for comments
  on the article talk page, clearly stating the desired edit, the policy-based objections which have been made to it, and the reason that you believe that its inclusion would best benefit the encyclopedia. I would strongly suggest that you very clearly and explicitly make a request that if the consensus of the community is that policy would ordinarily prevent the inclusion of your desired edits that you are requesting consensus for an IAR local exception to the rules, as otherwise you may simply get another "policy prevents it" result. A compelling answer to the inquiry I just made above will, I feel, be essential in obtaining such a consensus and it will be important to remember in constructing your request that the only proper reason for an IAR local exception is that ignoring the rules would benefit the encyclopedia in this instance more than following them. Arguments that the rules are misguided in general, or that an exception would benefit or be more fair to Ms. Ryden or her work, will probably be of no avail. Finally, an RFC can also be used to obtain the consensus of the community on whether the rules do, in fact, prevent the use of these sources, if that's all you care to do.

All the above advice is most useful and needs reflection before a decision is taken as to the next stage.

Regards,

WP:MEDCOM) can achieve is negotiation of a settlement between the editors who are already in the dispute. If any of them are intransigent or are unwilling to engage in the mediation process, it is not likely to succeed, whereas RFC can bring new editors and new opinions into the mix. It's your choice, if you choose to do anything at all. — TM 15:29, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

I just want to make a quick response, TransporterMan, to your lengthy and detailed response. You have restored my faith in Wikipedia! For the first time since editing the Vassula page someone has made a serious attempt to look at the problem and respond in a constructive way. I want to respond to everything you have said tommorrow after reflecting on all your points. But thank you very much for this response which is greatly appreciated.--Sasanack (talk) 19:46, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have now responded to your points, TransporterMan, inserting my responses in italics under each of your points. Once again, many thanks for your help. --Sasanack (talk) 06:47, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is "Vassula Ryden". Thank you. ==

Since you have been involved in the Vassula Ryden talk page with the CDF discussion I felt it appropriate to notify you that there is an ongoing dispute which can be found

]

June 2012

Your recent editing history at

reverts

on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's