User talk:Timtrent/Archive 40

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	This comes as a Medal bar to all the other gongs and bling you've been awarded for such excellent work over many years - and all that without the admin bit. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:57, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

@Kudpung You are very kind. Thank you. Oddly, I think the admin bit can be a hindrance, not a help. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 10:00, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Kudpung, Timtrent falls under the category of “Sysops without the tool” They are indeed a formidable force to be reckoned with. Celestina007 (talk) 22:44, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

@Celestina007 Aww, shucks! More seriously, I can do more without the tool than I could with it. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 22:48, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes! Yess! Precisely how I feel too! I was discussing via email with a sysop and this was the precise response I gave them! Celestina007 (talk) 23:24, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

[[1]] Draft:Madhuja_Mukherjee Ninjakiller07 (talk) 08:55, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

@Ninjakiller07 I have been kind and diligent already by reviewing and declining this draft after returning ot to draft space. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 09:05, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, thank you. It would be great help if you tell me what are the changes I have to bring so that this article gets accepted. Ninjakiller07 (talk) 09:09, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

@Ninjakiller07 The referencing has to be about the subject. Yours is not. You have work to do. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 10:44, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Revenge of the entrepreneurs Half an hour into their article creations & I have already noted this three. Gosh! Just when you think you are making progress, this happens! Celestina007 (talk) 22:18, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

@Celestina007 Good heavens 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 22:40, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

@Celestina007 Oh, I found another one. I'm sure you'll find it too 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 23:32, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

• • you bet ! Thanks old friend for pointing me to the right place. I can bet that if we dig deeper we would uncover a plethora of such type of promotional non notable articles. Celestina007 (talk) 14:41, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Why do you have to be such a bully, and delete the articles Tanner Arms and Ayrton Ori? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.193.7.104 (talk) 12:43, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

You have every right to comment in any deletion discussion. "Bully" is not a term that should be used here. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 13:17, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Hola--just wanted to check in and... ask about your comment "tag: please check your work and remove irrelevant tags after moving a valid article to mainspace " because I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Obviously, I think *all* my articles are valid, but the process for this is not 100% clear to me, as, like most of us, I'm self-taught in this and have done a variety of things (expanding stubs, starting articles, completing articles, &c.). Which tags is it appropriate to remove? I was under the impression that "tags" were something a reviewer, and not the originator, were supposed to check.

Happy for correction if this is wrong.

Wilhelm Leopolski

Sicklemoon (talk) 16:49, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

@Sicklemoon Please look at the article history, and see what I changed. Give me a shout if it's still a mystery

No-one reviewed your draft, so it was not created as part of the

WP:AFC full process. You are entitled to move your own work to main space once satisfied, but please tidy up behind yourself and remove relevant banners (etc) 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me

 🇺🇦 16:56, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Okay, will do. and thanks. Am still getting a sense of the overvsight (or lack thereof) and what's necessary for the creation of a complete article that's not making unnecessary work for other contributers.

Sicklemoon (talk) 17:12, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

@Sicklemoon No-one ever stops learning.

Put simply, the oversight is the community. There is

WP:AFC

reviewers offer an iterative decline/accept process which anyone is welcome to use.

Any editor may offer any editor's creation, old, new, for deletion by any of our processes, provided they have a policy based rationale for doing so.

Any editor may edit any article.

Enjoy creating good work here and pass help on to less experienced editors 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 17:28, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

@Sicklemoon read this essay, too. It may help you create "right first time" articles. The process detailed is very useful.

Remember that we only need sufficient to make sure it survives. Unless the topic is obscure it is highly likely that someone will also join in and develop it 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 17:36, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

There is no point reporting a stale username as it's automatically no further action. It's a waste of everyone's time. Old COI usernames need the COI stuff dealing with - removing promo spam in user space etc, but we are not going to block an account that hasn't edited for several years. Secretlondon (talk) 21:44, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

@Secretlondon fair enough. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 21:46, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

A choreographer who has won multiple notable awards. Is she not notable as per first criteria of

	The Special Barnstar
	For taking on part of the unpleasant but useful task of nominating for deletion articles that are tendentiously moved from draft space into article space. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:17, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon You are more than kind, Robert. It's an awkward task, one that AfD is not ideally suited to, but there appears to be no other way. At least it ensures, insofar as AfD ensures anything, that the community takes a look. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 06:43, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

There’s this. Oh boy! Celestina007 (talk) 11:44, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Hello When I first came here you helped me and told me 3 articles is enough for Filmmaker notablity and now is months which I am struggling to create my first article but I just get rejected. Ryanusa7777777 (talk

WP:42. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me

 🇺🇦 17:10, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes and thanks but in my opinion it can pass but they don't approve it.😣 Ryanusa7777777 (talk) 17:16, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

as I said, I am away. You need a conversation with those who have declined it 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 17:47, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

@Ryanusa7777777 you do not appear to have submitted it for review. One reference is a 404 error anyway, whcih show that your opinion is incomplete. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 19:27, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your response and attention News Articles:

https://www.radiotimes.com/movie-guide/b-d9rfys/timeless/ https://www.prlog.org/12854220-qmars-mootabs-official-website-launches.html

https://medium.com/@Ryan_Wolf_Film/the-best-movies-by-qmars-mootab-570095c278ee

They just declined it yesterday Can you handle this? I really do want to submit my first article and I worked hard for it Ryanusa7777777 (talk) 19:32, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

@Ryanusa7777777 When I say I am away then I am away. I am away. Talk to the declining reviewer please. Note that simple (eg) TV listings are useless as references. Notice as well that you did not link the draft so I had to search for it. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 04:30, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

It appears you pinged me somewhere else but I can’t seem to locate my username there, was it an error ? Celestina007 (talk) 18:12, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Not an error. Please seeUser talk:IndaneLove#Kruti Mahesh (choreographer) moved to draftspace (the first instance). We have an editor offering a set of behaviours that your ability to analyse patterns would be valuable on, either to clear their name, or the reverse. Either outcome is acceptable, as is one that is vague, or that you decline the invitation. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 18:17, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

@Celestina007 forgot to ping 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 18:48, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi Tim, My apologies. I am new to this and didnt realise that I should remain "logged in" when sending a message. In any event, I have removed the scans of the old newspaper cuttings, although I do think they are permitted for the purposes of "fair use" under the US Copyright Act. https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107

eg:

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/fair-use-rule-copyright-material-30100.html#:~:text=Uses%20That%20Are%20Normally%20Considered%20Legally%20%22Fair%22&text=News%20reporting%3A%20Summarizing%20an%20address,text%20without%20the%20politician's%20permission

and

https://blog.newspapers.library.in.gov/fair-use-and-copyright-research/

Uses That Are Normally Considered Legally "Fair" Subject to some general limitations discussed later in this article, the following types of uses are usually deemed fair uses:

Criticism and commentary: For example, quoting or excerpting a work in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment would normally be fair use. A book reviewer would be permitted to quote passages from a book in a newspaper column as part of an examination of the book. News reporting: Summarizing an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report constitutes fair use. A journalist would be permitted to quote from a political speech's text without the politician's permission. Research and scholarship: Quoting a short passage in a scholarly, scientific, or technical work for illustration or clarification of the author's observations would be deemed acceptable. An art historian would be able to use an image of a painting in an academic article that analyzes the painting. Nonprofit educational uses: When teachers photocopy limited portions of written works for classroom use, this is normally acceptable. An English teacher would be permitted to copy a few pages of a book to show to the class as part of a lesson plan. (Note that she would not be permitted to photocopy the entire book).

Similarly, a use that benefits the public or that lends to education also weighs heavily in favor of a finding of fair use. For example, in its advertising a vacuum cleaner manufacturer was permitted to quote from a Consumer Reports article comparing vacuum cleaners. Why? The ad significantly increased the number of people exposed to the Consumers Reports' evaluations and thereby disseminated helpful consumer information. The same rationale probably applies to the widespread practice of quoting from favorable reviews in advertisements for books, films, and plays.

Five Considerations Regarding "Fair Use" There are five basic considerations to keep in mind when deciding whether or not a particular use of an author's work is a fair use. These are the same considerations likely to weigh on the mind of a judge:

Rule 1: Are You Creating Something New or Just Copying?

The purpose and character of your intended use of the material involved is the single most important factor in determining whether a use is fair under U.S. copyright law. The question to ask here is whether you are merely copying someone else's work verbatim or instead using it to help create something new.

Rule 2: Are Your Competing With the Source You're Copying From?

Without consent, you ordinarily cannot use another person's protected expression in a way that impairs (or even potentially impairs) the market for his or her work.

For example, say Nick, a golf pro, writes a book on how to play golf. He copies several brilliant paragraphs on how to putt from a book by Lee Trevino, one of the greatest putters in golf history. Because Nick intends his book to compete with and hopefully supplant Trevino's, this use is not a fair use.

Rule 3: Giving the Author Credit Does Not Always Let You Off the Hook

Some people mistakenly believe that they can use any material as long as they properly give the author credit. Not true. Giving credit and fair use are completely separate concepts. Either you have the right to use another author's material under the fair use rule, or you do not. The fact that you attribute the material to the other author does not change that.

(Having said that, crediting your source will decrease the chances of litigation, since the original author may feel that he or she received appropriate credit.)

Rule 4: The More You Take, the Less Fair Your Use Is Likely to Be

The more material you lift from the original, the less likely it is that your use will be considered a fair use. As a broad standard, never quote more than a few successive paragraphs from a book or article, take more than one chart or diagram, include an illustration or other artwork in a book or newsletter without the artist's permission, or quote more than one or two lines from a poem.

Contrary to what many people believe, there is no absolute word limit on fair use. For example, copying 200 words from a work of 300 words wouldn't be fair use. However, copying 2,000 words from a work of 500,000 words might be fair. It all depends on the circumstances.

To preserve the free flow of information, authors are given more leeway when using material from factual works (scholarly, technical, or scientific works) than works of fancy, such as novels, poems, and plays.

Rule 5: The Quality of the Material Used Is as Important as the Quantity

The more important the material is to the original work, the less likely your use of it will be considered fair.

In one famous case, The Nation magazine obtained a copy of Gerald Ford's memoirs before their publication. In the magazine's article about the memoirs, only 300 words from Ford's 200,000-word manuscript were quoted verbatim. The Supreme Court ruled that this was not a fair use because the material quoted (dealing with the Nixon pardon) was the "heart of the book... the most interesting and moving parts of the entire manuscript," and that prepublication disclosure of this material would cut into value or sales of the book.

In determining whether your intended use of another author's protected work constitutes a fair use, apply the golden rule: Take from someone else only what you would not mind someone taking from you. This will help, should you ever need to defend your actions in court.

I trust that the article is now fit for purpose and can be approved?

With thanks,

Ian Penman13:43, 9 May 2022 (UTC)Ianrpenman (talk)

@

WP:TEAHOUSE

may be a place to give your difficukties detailed answers.

I will look at your aticle in a moment.

Editing while logged out reveals your IP address, compromises your privacy, and can be seen as a mechanism to avoid scrutiny 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 14:07, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

sometimes for admins too 😥 --Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:20, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

@Deepfriedokra I am sure it does. Without the janitorial supplies cupboard I cannot know. What I do know is that it should not fizzle out, but should lead to a recognised venue. SPI as a model works well enough. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 18:30, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm trying to see how long I can go without opining at ArbCom.

I would like to say that if someone is conducting clandestine ops under the aegis of ArbCom or the Foundation, they should not reveal it on Wiki. Clandestine ops are useless once they have blown their cover. If someone has a magic CU tool from outside Wiki, any information obtained via that (highly implausible) tool should be emailed to ArbCom or the Foundation as confidential.

I have emailed off Wiki evidence and the response was sortof, "meh." so now I leave it to the professionals.

One must remain as civil as possible at all times --Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:49, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

@Deepfriedokra Civility costs absolutely nothing, even if, sometimes, one has to be civil through gritted teeth. Good faith may become stretched, but civility never.

Black ops are black ops. No-one save those allowed to perform them should know.

All I believe we need to know is where to send the material. That shoudl be public (the location). The reaction should be a simple acknowledgement of receipt, no more and no less.

I suspect it may be a close tie between Arbcom declining the case and your commenting on this one 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 18:57, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Challenge accepted. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 19:05, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

@Deepfriedokra Love it!

Of course, this may come to Arbcom in due course, but running twin processes simultaneously seems to be foolish. Arbcom might choose to usurp the ANI discussion, but I do not feel that to be part of its remit. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 19:08, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

They need to let it run. There is plenty of work for her to do if she is TBANned from spam/UPE. I think a block would be excessive. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 19:13, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

@Deepfriedokra It's regrettable that it has come to pass, and it was avoidable by dint of wise and early retraction of horns.

The ANI thread is a horrible pile on. ANI seems to attract the worst of our instincts, not the best. I mentioned to someone else that it often feels as if it is Lord of the Flies.

I think a TBan likely, a block excessive, but possible. I have concerns that the ANI thread was given credence since it was opened by an apparently not squeaky clean person, and there is no boomerang in evidence. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 19:20, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes. Lord of the Flies is very apt. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 19:27, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

@Deepfriedokra Wikipedia may be the encyclopaedia that anyone can edit, but we have made it extremely hard for most people to edit it successfully. We trip them at every turn with rules, policies, processes, and have functionaries beyond our wildest nightmares.

I concur with your ANI comment. It is the least worst option assuming we can persuade her to return. I value all her contributions, though am sometimes taken aback by her fervour. I am sure she will not be surprised that I say that. I have mentioned it to her from time to time, and know she may be watching my talk page.

Equally, she has often mentioned to me that she is surprised at how relaxed and laid back are my dealings with others, even, perhaps especially, when in serious disagreement. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 19:41, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Fervor. Yes. She needs to dampen that. I feel better about where the situation is knowing you tried to curb her "exuberance." She needs to know that she is valued, but she must learn a new approach. I have Asperger's, so I'm forced to step back and work through what I'm going to say. It's hard to remember to be polite. It's a daily struggle. Sometimes I'm curt, but sometimes the subtext of curtness is what people need if politeness has failed. Hah. I'm now thinking of Kiddo from Kill Bill. Courtesy was ingrained into the main character's behavior. So, after Kiddo disinters herself, covered with dust and dirt, she goes into a bar(?) and politely requests a glass of water, please. Would that we could all maintain that level of aplomb after a harrowing experience. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 19:55, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

@Deepfriedokra As you know for Asperger's reasons, and as I know because of my bloody minded determination to remain detached when the going gets tough, being polite and relaxed can be remarkably hard. Yet politeness and calmness is the way to get results.

It can take longer than throwing half a brick at them, but there is less blood, and more satisfaction at the end result.

She is learning. I have counselled her often. I know DGG will be an excellent mentor. I have mentored others and helped some who were felt to be lost causes back to become useful editors, so I know what it takes. We're back to bloody minded determination not to allow them to lose. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 20:09, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

yep --Deepfriedokra (talk) 20:11, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

What I like is when someone files a "highly ill-advised" ArbCom and then runs off. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 20:15, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

@Deepfriedokra I think we have all been guilty of inadvisable behaviour at times, but that one wasted the time of anyone who responded.

That is what the trout is used for 😂😇😈 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 20:23, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

This is a PR article although it is written by Bloomberg's editors? Please teach me the difference since I apparently have a hard time distinguishing PR from editorial articles.

@

WP:RSN

where you will receive an authoritative answer.

Instead, I will suggest to you that you look at the content and determine whether the source is likely to be the corporation spoken about. Then also look at any material brought to the article by any by-lined editor. Look at the top and bottom paragraphs and judge whether it be a PR department generated piece, or a true piece of significant coverage im a source independent of the subject of the article.

When you create articles or add references to articles, or argue about references in discussions you need only to argue about, use, those you are 100% certain of. If you are having trouble distinguishing then do not use that as a reference. Only ever argue from a position of strength, strength of knowledge about the references you speak of. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 09:11, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Umm, I asked you how you came to the conclusion that that Bloomberg article is PR, although the editors are clearly mentioned. I'm not here to play "games" and the rest of your response is irrelevant to what I asked.

talk

) 09:18, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

@

M4DU7 Please teach me the difference since I apparently have a hard time distinguishing PR from editorial articles. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me

 🇺🇦 09:22, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, very helpful.

talk

) 09:29, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

M4DU7, this isn't a "smoking gun", but see this twitter thread where a set of articles, which have been written by a reporter currently at Bloomberg and consistently portray an Indian billionaire in positive light, have been collected. Bloomberg may not be as bad as some of the Indian "business" papers, but they too aren't entirely above such practices. I didn't vote in that AfD, but I agree that the Bloomberg profile in question is useless for Wikipedia's purposes. Hemantha (talk

) 12:43, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

You also put this in the draft. TheManishPanwar (talk) 10:19, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

@TheManishPanwar What is the point you are seeking to make? 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 10:22, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

This is also a blank article. You can also put it in the draft. TheManishPanwar (talk) 10:23, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

@

Civility is required. If you wish to rephrase your messages in a more pleasant manner I will consider looking at the content. Until then I will not. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me

 🇺🇦 10:26, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

I give you permission. Sir TheManishPanwar (talk) 10:30, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

@

WP:TEAHOUSE where a polite question will get a good response 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me

 🇺🇦 10:32, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. Will reconsider as a specific article on a specific issue. Tuimaleali'ifano 210.7.7.2 (talk) 03:33, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello Timtrent, I hope you're doing great. Could you consider looking into Janhit Mein Jaari article and marking it as PageTriage. Thanks for your consideration. C1K98V ^{(💬 ✒️ 📂)} 14:41, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

• @C1K98V:  Done. I wonder why you drew this to my attention? 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 15:50, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks for quick response C1K98V ^{(💬 ✒️ 📂)} 16:00, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

  @Timtrent, @C1K98V might have found you on the list I provided them since I'm not active in NPP and couldn't help with their request on my Talk. Star Mississippi 16:16, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

  @Star Mississippi: I tend not to use the NPP toolset much either. I have given the article an honest opinion, but I don't anticipate that it was the one desired. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 16:20, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

  I just wanted an honest opinion, so I'm glad you're quick and I value your time and efforts. Thanks C1K98V ^{(💬 ✒️ 📂)} 16:24, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

  @

  WP:NFILM. I wish you every success with it despite my having suggested deletion and submitted it for discussion. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me

   🇺🇦 16:27, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

  I'm here to learn and contribute constructively. So I don't worry about it. Rather, I would be happy if it survive the afd. Thanks C1K98V ^{(💬 ✒️ 📂)} 16:32, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Hello Timtrent, I hope you're doing great would you mind looking at the afd. Thanks C1K98V ^{(💬 ✒️ 📂)} 03:51, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

@C1K98V It appears that ity is likely to be kept. I have not changed my opinion 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 06:39, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah I know that and I do agree with you. Would you mind closing the afd. Whats your thought on this @Star Mississippi: should it be closed or we can put it on hold till release. Thanks C1K98V ^{(💬 ✒️ 📂)} 06:49, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

@C1K98V I can't close it. Let it run for its full time. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 06:53, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Good enough. Thanks C1K98V ^{(💬 ✒️ 📂)} 06:54, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

There is no harm in letting it run seven days as sometimes later input differs. Is there a reason you're in such a hurry with this article? You're asking multiple editors directly to take different actions, which is out of normal process. Star Mississippi 11:50, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

@Star Mississippi No no, you're getting me wrong. Im not in a hurry. It's just that the article is about a subject which is considered a TABOO, from India perspective, not from Global viewpoint. Sorry if I bothered you both. Thank you for help and guidances. C1K98V ^{(💬 ✒️ 📂)} 13:42, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

hi, it appears you have declined this article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Sensoneo, because it appears as an advertisement. I was careful to stay objective and neutral, staying true to facts and serious journalistic reports (I avoided press releases). I have drawn inspiration from other companies listed on wikipedia such as Hubspot or Kaspersky to name a few, and was careful to omit any praise or inflating facts. However, I admit that it is possible I have not stayed as neutral as i might have wanted.

I would be thankful to receive your further assistance in adressing the subjective parts. Could you, please, provide guidance in regards to which parts should be edited (or discarded altogether), so the article stays completely neutral?

Polydoll (talk) 11:04, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@Polydoll: What you have produced is a corporate directory entry. My opinion is that you have written about the org from its perspective, and thus not shown why it is, in a Wikipedia sense, notable. Avoiding PR pieces was praiseworthy. You would benefit from reading this essay which should help you to get to where you wish to go. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 11:13, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

So, after having read the essay, do I understand correctly that the main issue here is not enough coverage and 3rd party reliable sources? The solution would then be to shorten the article and cite more of the topics? Or in other words, increase the citation-to-information ratio? Polydoll (talk) 11:56, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@Polydoll Précis to what is notable, if notability can be verified in the sources described. Do not just add references. That tends to fail. Be very critical of this you have, losing any which fail the acid tests. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 11:58, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi Timtrent,

You recently reviewed and denied an article on Ezra Nanes, who is the Mayor of State College. You said he was not a notable enough politician, despite there being at least a dozen different outside media articles about him. He has been serving as Mayor for 6 months and there are articles about him nearly every other week. In a similar example, former Mayor of State College Elizabeth Goreham's Wikipedia page was approved. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Goreham.

Can you please explain how else to make Ezra Nanes' page acceptable? — Preceding

@StateCollege2021 State College? Is this actually place, then? It sounds like a college 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 20:38, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

State College, Pennsylvania is a Borough in Pennsylvania. https://www.statecollegepa.us. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_College,_Pennsylvania

talk

) 20:39, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

@StateCollege2021 and how large is a borough? 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 20:42, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

The population of State College is nearly 40,000 people. A borough is a municipality in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, in the United States. https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/statecollegeboroughpennsylvania

talk

) 20:44, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

(Aside: It looks like Goreham may not be notable. I've flagged the article accordingly.) —C.Fred (talk) 20:46, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

@C.Fred Thank you. I am now unsure either way, so I have reverted my review to allow another reviewers opinion instead. @StateCollege2021 please note. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 20:49, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm leaning not notable, but I'm certainly not going to review until I go through the sources to see if there is in-depth coverage of him, particularly in sources with a scope beyond the local area. It would also need some copyediting and restructuring. —C.Fred (talk) 20:51, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

@

WP:NPOLITICIAN

AfD is a possibility for Goreham, The community is better than each of us individually at coming to a formal conclusion. I will not participate, though. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 20:56, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

State College is (without pulling a map to see where the borough limits are) the home of, or the nearest municipality to, Penn State University. The name doesn't hurt with the confusion...but it's not as bad in that department as the city of Clemson, South Carolina, home of Clemson University. —C.Fred (talk) 21:05, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

With all due respect, she was Mayor of this large municipality and was the first woman to do so. I agree she may not be that notable, however I do believe Ezra is. Ezra Nanes is the first Jewish man to serve in this role. Ezra Nanes also has an extensive political background, which is greater than that of Mayor Goreham's.

talk

) 20:49, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

@StateCollege2021 Being Jewish is not a criterion for any form of notability when intersecting with a role like this. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 20:52, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

He was featured on WTAJ Altoona -- beyond the local area for a statewide debate. There is other evidence of his notability statewide. Wikipedia has allowed the coverage of other Borough Mayors across PA and the country. Why is this one different?

https://www.facebook.com/wtajtv/videos/the-pasen-democratic-debate-has-come-and-gone-jordan-tracy-and-state-college-may/357052453112013/

talk

) 20:57, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillian_DeBaptiste

West Chester, PA Mayor.

talk

) 20:59, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

@

WP:GNG. —C.Fred (talk

) 21:00, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

@StateCollege2021 No precedent is ever set by any article for any other. If it were we would have a brutally fast descent into idiocracy 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 21:01, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Then I welcome you both, and your colleagues, to please review the mound of sources of articles that speak to Mayor Ezra Nanes' notability. Thank you again for reviewing this.

talk

) 21:03, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

@

talk

) 21:05, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

@StateCollege2021: Which is why I stand by my comment above: "I'm leaning not notable, but I'm certainly not going to review until I go through the sources to see if there is in-depth coverage of him..."^{[emphasis added]} —C.Fred (talk) 21:07, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

@StateCollege2021 Since it is a borough I cannot dispute that it has legitimacy. That is all. Please read nothing further into it. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 21:08, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

@

conflict of interest

.

I am not going to re-review the draft on Nanes. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 21:06, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

I have no relationship to Nanes, except I am a resident of the Borough of which he is Mayor. I am a journalist student at Pennsylvania State University which is partly in the Borough. Therefore, I am interested in trying my hand at journalism particularly on this unique medium, and I noticed there was no page for our highest elected official so I tried to write about it.

talk

) 21:08, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

@StateCollege2021 A journalistic writing style will never work here. However you will improve your writing by learning how to write dull-but-worthy and correctly cited prose.

Your username suggests a relationship with the borough, hence Nanes. You wish to apply to change it. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 21:12, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

My username, as I just explained on my Talk page, is because I reside in State College. Being a resident of the borough does not mean I have a relationship with its mayor. I am just a student. The prose on the article I wrote is dull because it is similar to other Wikipedia articles. Actually, writing in dull prose helps as a journalism exercise -- only giving just the facts and nothing else. This is helpful.

talk

) 21:14, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

If you want me to change it to my name -- Ben Musser -- then I can. Let me know.

talk

) 21:15, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

@StateCollege2021 You have no need to use your real name, but you may be wise to change your username since there is scope for confusion and for accusations of conflict of interest.

I used to write press releases and marketing bullshit and hype. Dull-but-worthy absolutely improves all writing. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 21:21, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Okay. I'll change it. That makes sense. Do you think that the article was dull-but-worthy?

talk

) 21:24, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

I actually do not know how to change my name lol!

talk

) 21:25, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

@StateCollege2021 see Wikipedia:Changing username

I was more concerned that I felt it failed

WP:NPOLITICIAN, so I neglected the text. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me

 🇺🇦 21:28, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

In reading the article, I found the text to border on fluffy at time. Lots of detail beyond what usually goes in articles of the kind and other word choice issues. That didn't help with the appearance of promotional writing. —C.Fred (talk) 21:37, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

I can certainly edit it further to resemble ever closer what @

talk

) 21:39, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

• Let me know if you think I should do that now.
  talk
  ) 21:39, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

  @StateCollege2021 Articles always benefit from editing in the right direction. Submission for review does not prevent editing whole awaiting review.

  Read this essay for some guidance. There are many such essays 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 21:43, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your comment on the Robert Merrill Chase, Sr. draft regarding making a decision about writing about the man or the businesses.

Previously, the draft you reviewed in Feb did have information about the history and role of the businesses. Specifically, there was a lot about the history of Merrill Chase Galleries and the role of the Galleries in shaping the art business. Almost all that information has been removed. In this draft, the businesses are included as they were founded/co-founded Robert Chase. The sections on his relationships with two artists (Dali and Hart) is focused on his personal relationship (vs business with the Galleries), as the sources indicate.

Also, the structure of the draft (early life, business career, and philanthropy) + the content is very consistent with several other profiles of art dealers on Wikipedia.

Examples:

1) Leo Castelli (a contemporary of Chase and here the business is presented much in the same way my draft has it)

2) Serge Sorokko

3) Nicholas Wilder

4) Edith Halpert

5) Karsten Greve

6) Sidney Janis

I appreciate your consideration and also any guidance if this information is insufficient in addressing your comment regarding the draft.

Ckouri (talk) 01:28, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Ckouri No precedent is ever set by any article for any other. If it were we would have a brutally fast descent into idiocracy. Please bear that in mind when examining any other article.

While Chase created his businesses, he is not the businesses, which may or may not be independently notable. The key point is to write the draft you are writing to make the distinction clear. Thus a draft on Chase will contain small and carefully selected information about his businesses, and drafts about his business will contain small and carefully selected information about Chase. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 07:24, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

You mentioned that I need to disclose my affiliation with AOZ Studio differently, but i'm not sure what I'm supposed to do.

Currently, the work I've been doing part time for AOZ Studio is as a volunteer. I have 'in the past' been paid by AOZ Studio for coding and debugging, but this is unrelated to the Wikipedia article. I *may* be paid in the future by AOZ Studio for other work, but again, unrelated to the Wikipedia article.

How should I report this differently than what I have already declared? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ising4jesus

Here's the article in question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:AOZ_Studio

Also, do you have any suggestions as to how I could improve the article to make it more acceptable for re-submission?

Ising4jesus (talk) 06:54, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@

WP:PAID which removes any doubt. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me

 🇺🇦 21:21, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi, we have discusseed my draft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Sensoneo , which you suggested was not suitable due to some of its contents and structure. I have read your essay and quite a few others, and after some time have decided that making it a stub would probably be the way to go forward with it. Could you please check on it and confirm that it is now suitable for submission? Thank you Polydoll (talk) 16:32, 17 June 2022 (UTC) Polydoll Polydoll (talk) 16:32, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

UPDATE - although I havent seen a single company article with COI disclosed even though obvious, I have added a COI on top as per your review. Polydoll (talk) 17:40, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@

WP:PAID 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me

 🇺🇦 21:23, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

tried to ping you, but failed. See my comment there for context. Thanks! Star Mississippi 18:35, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

@Star Mississippi DRV and a new draft feels like asking the others parent. Ah well. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 19:20, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Please do not move this article to draft again. It is ready for main space. Bruxton (talk) 23:24, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi! I've deleted Industrial school, so all clear for the draft. Would you like to have the Page mover user right, which would allow you suppress redirects when moving a page? If so, just ask – I'm confident that you meet the requirements. Regards, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:42, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

@Justlettersandnumbers If you believe it would be beneficial I think PM rights would be acceptable. I had not considered asking for that right previously, considering that I only would use it for this specific purpose, as far as I can see.

Thank you for deleting the redirect 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 11:19, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

OK, I've done that – I don't think it matters that you'd only have the one use for it, as long as it saves time all round. Regards, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:44, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

@Justlettersandnumbers I promise to be very careful with it. I do guarantee to make errors at times, but so do we all. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 11:46, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

@Justlettersandnumbers An interesting by-product is that it deleted the main space redirect when draftifying. That makes a great deal of sense and less work for others. It also adds a tick box in a sensible place somewhere else. It's a well thought out right and tool. I still doubt very much that I will use it outside those areas. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 18:09, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that's right – you can now suppress the creation of a redirect when you move a page, and the draftify script somehow exploits that (don't ask me how!). And that's a small saving of time and effort for everyone each time. I'm glad it's working for you. Regards, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:34, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi Timtrent, thank you so much for your feedback. I am wondering what I can do to improve the notability of RightNow Media. I noticed their parent company, Bluefish TV, has a page. RightNow Media seems notable, as there are not many other religious streaming services on the market. What kind of links should be included to improve notability? Thank you for your consideration! GodLovesYou12 (talk) 13:59, 29 June 2022 (UTC)GodLovesYou12

@GodLovesYou12 You cannot make it notable if it does not have inherent notability. References would help, if you can find them.

We require references from significant coverage about the topic of the article, and independent of it, in multiple

WP:SELFPUB

which has clear limitations on self published sources. Providing sufficient references, ideally one per fact referred to, that meet these tough criteria is likely to allow this article to remain. Lack of them or an inability to find them is likely to mean that the topic is not suitable for inclusion, certainly today.

With regard to Bluefish TV, I do not believe it merits an article either. We have many poor articles about organisations that fail

WP:NCORP. I believe this to be one. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me

 🇺🇦 14:39, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

GNN/Graph Neural Networks draft

Hey Timtrent. I think there's been a misunderstanding. I am working on pulling an old draft of the GNN page into the current one (here). You may see in the talk page of Graph neural network that another user put a great deal of work into writing their own version of the page before mine was submitted. I'm working on merging the two. Perhaps I used the wrong avenue to do this having it in the "draft" namespace. How should I go about this without confusing other editors? Is it okay to continue editing it as is, even with the "declined" banner on it? Zaya (talk) 20:35, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@

WP:AFC is not intended for a use like this. Instead it is designed for completely new drafts of articles that do not yet exist. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me

 🇺🇦 20:38, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@Timtrent I believe the consensus is that we want to add in his version, with less of a practitioners tone and more encyclopedic. That's what I'm working on now, but it can't be done in a day. Is there a better place I can save this revision until it's ready? Sorry, I'm new to edits of this size--not sure of the protocol. Zaya (talk) 20:44, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@Iking5 DRaft namespace is acceptable. Please do not submit the draft for review.

a sub-page in your own userspace is also acceptable, for example User:Iking5/GNN Working space, whcih obviously does not exist yet 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 20:47, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Oh whoops. Nvm. Someone beat me to it. I hadn't seen how the article had changed in the past 24 hours. Disregard haha Zaya (talk) 20:46, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@Iking5  Done!! 😂 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 20:47, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

A cookie for you!

Timtrent, I send this cookie with rainbow sprinkles to you and ask you to share with your other half (if they like cookies). I was feeling very discouraged that my first article was so speedily deleted, but you sent words of encouragement to me, not once, but twice! I appreciate your help and will follow your suggestions. Thank you. I also agree that dictators should NEVER win...not in Ukraine, not anywhere!!! I send a virtual "Mom" hug to you and your other half (if they like hugs). What a joy to see your rainbow labels! I am the proud mother of a queer daughter. My husband and I love and value her and her wonderful and supportive wife (of 14 years), and their two children. We are on the board of PFLAG Fort Worth and recently had the pleasure and privilege of marching in the Dallas Pride Parade. Please accept my hugs and my appreciation I send to you! Namamacs Namamacs (talk) 21:13, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Aww, thank you, {[User:Namamacs|Namamacs]]. As a proud mother of a queer child you and they might find

ISBN 978-1795435383

which describes my teenage years] interesting/amusing. Or not!

Pride Parades have, over here, become somewhat commercialised. They need to return to the post Stonewall Riot protest movement style parade. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 21:21, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the references and encouragement

Thank you so much, Timtrent, for all of your excellent advice about Wikipedia, writing, and links to excellent articles I will use for guidance. Now I think I'll put the Zoe Empowers article aside until I find more "notable" references. It's almost grandmothering time again anyway. Also, thank you for the reference to your book. Wow! What a gift to write your story and share it with gay kids everywhere. Congrats on early retirement. My husband retired at age 55 and was (and is) SO happy to not be working. Yes, the Dallas Pride parade had many corporate sponsors, and we were behind all the sponsors. Waited for a couple of hours before marching along the route. It was 95 degrees that Sunday, but there was a really good breeze and enough shade from trees along the route. We complained about the heat until the next Sunday was over 100 degrees. Then, we were thankful for the pleasant 95 with a breeze. Y'all take care! Namamacs Namamacs (talk) 23:06, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

@Namamacs I have the grandkids here tomorrow. Enjoy yours.

I just missed 55, but it was my target! 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 23:24, 4 July 2022 (UTC)