Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2010 Karachi plane crash

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. There is a strong consensus here to Keep, with overwhelming consensus expressed from the community that the subject of the article is noteworthy, notable, and satisfies

WP:NOTE. -- Cirt (talk) 05:25, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply
]

2010 Karachi plane crash

AfDs for this article:
2010 Karachi plane crash (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log  • AfD statistics)
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  1. Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content. Check.
  2. "Reliable" means sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability, per the reliable source guideline. Sources may encompass published works in all forms and media, and in any language. Check.
  3. "Sources,"[2] for notability purposes, should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability. Check.
  4. "Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by those affiliated with the subject including (but not limited to): self-publicity, advertising, self-published material by the subject, autobiographies, press releases, etc. Check.
  5. "Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion. Check too. Lugnuts (talk) 10:00, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No. The reason for deletion is for failing NOT#NEWS (policy), EVENT (GNG equivalent guideline), and AIRCRASH (topic specific essay). Simply meeting the GNG criteria does not defeat that, because as you point out in No. 5, (but don't seemed to have understood by giving it a 'check'), passing the GNG is just a presumption of notability, not a free pass, it is not our only policy and it is not our only guideline. To give an example of how poor this defence is to the actual nomination, your run down of the GNG criteria here would mean every single thing on Google News right now deserves an article. Check? No. And your actual use of the GNG isn't that great either - in your copy and past of the 'Sources' criteria for example, you conveniently left out the multiple sources caveat, for which multiple news reports sourced from the same few wires/quotes, is not considered multiple sourcing. And from NOT#NEWS, when they all say the exact same thing, it is not considered evidence of significant coverage either, but is simply routine news coverage reflecting the relative importance to news organisations, but meaningless when considering the encyclopoedic importance. And on that score, yes, it is entirely routine that when an airplane crashes into the ground, all the people on board die. It is also entirely routine that every now and again, a plane somewhere in the world falls out of the sky. Infact in Pakistan, quite often actually. You've given no evidence there was anything unusual about this particular crash, and don't even seem to realise why the other article you cite is considered historically significant and noteworthy, beyond simple news values. Nothing about your insistence that this is not a routine accident demonstrates how anyone in ten years time will not look back on this accident as anything other than just another routine aircrash. You want Wikipedia's role to be an aircrash database? Or a permanent memorial to such tragedies? Fine, then go and get WP:NOT#NEWS, WP:NOT#INFO and WP:NOT#MEMORIAL deleted as parts of the policy NOT, which is, as a core policy, more important than the GNG all day every day. Simply meeting the GNG simply doesn't cut it for these sorts of aircrashes, not by a long way. MickMacNee (talk) 14:06, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. It meets the guidance cited. Thanks for your input. Lugnuts (talk) 09:20, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No it doesn't. You can either read, understand, and reply to the above comments, or you can't. Don't simply make nonsense statements in reply and pretend they make sense, that's just idiotic behaviour frankly. MickMacNee (talk) 17:17, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it does! idiotic? that's really stupid! Elmao (talk) 09:31, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Prove it then, answer the points above. MickMacNee (talk) 19:20, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please be
civil. Thanks again. Lugnuts (talk) 14:37, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply
]
WP:CIVIL specifically directs editors not to do what you did with that non-reply above. MickMacNee (talk) 19:20, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hardly a non-reply - fully citied policy that I've refered to, instead of your psuedo-essay. Thanks. Lugnuts (talk) 08:36, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The "non-reply" refers to this, not your original response. To the closer - please note that despite what he claims here, this user has still failed to answer my rebuttal of 6 Nov 14:06, and thus the points still stand for consideration. Also please note that again, despite what he claims here, he is surely well aware by now (if he really cannot deduce it from the original nomination) that an essay is not the only reason for deletion. This fact has been stated and restated enough on this page already. MickMacNee (talk) 18:48, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't need to answer your rebuttal, as I've citied the policy this article clearly meets. Again, thanks for your input. Lugnuts (talk) 19:36, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever you say. You want to ignore the rebuttal, you go right ahead, it doesn't help your case in any way at all, infact it totally weakens it, as it shows precisely how you really don't understand the principles, policies and guidelines in play here, and why your opinion counts for nothing. And the GNG is not a policy, and articles are not required to only meet the GNG to be kept on Wikipedia, as is fully explained in the rebuttal. If you simply don't know that, you don't know much tbh. MickMacNee (talk) 20:55, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, please be civil - that's your final warning on that note. Thanks again for your input. Lugnuts (talk) 08:35, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And for the last time, this, this and this are all picture perfect examples of incivil behaviour, if you actually read the policy you are trying to warn me about here, instead of just trying to use it as an excuse/weapon. I won't be so melodramatic as to you issue you a 'final warning' to be civil in all your actions, but I will note for the benefit of everyone that this is now the second time you've been reminded of that aspect of civility, and if you choose to so blatantly ignore it again, your intent in that regard becomes harder and harder to deny. And for the record, if you look downwards, you will see that I am not the only person who has correctly identified your sole fixation on the GNG as a completely flawed rebuttal to the nomination. And P.S., instead of worrying about giving out 'final warnings', it would be a help if you could actualy make proper use
indentation, as I am not even entirely sure which post of mine you are even referring to. MickMacNee (talk) 12:01, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply
]

Keep Per reasons above. Zbase4 (talk) 01:34, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

??????????? What? MickMacNee is the one whose trying to delete this. Either your vote is delete according to MickMacNee's statement or Keep according to Lugnuts statement Zbase4 (talk) 12:38, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Fatal and disastrous air crashes like this are not routine news events" - Really? What is non-routine then about the news coverage of this incident? A plane crashed and the news reported it in the exact same way they would do for any similar event. This is not a rebuttal to a NOT#NEWS / EVENT deletion nomination at all
  • "major disasters which prompt deep and thorough and investigations which last much longer than the initial news story" - So what? The closer should note that every single aircrash, no matter how big or small, is always investigated (and yes, always thoroughly too!). This simple fact of life is completely irrelevant to establishing whether this crash is notable or not, or worthy of a stand-alone article on Wikipedia or not (unless the assertion is that all aircrashes are always notable? - this is not the case on Wikipedia at all)
  • "This event is every bit as notable as
    Other Crap Exists argument. Yes it involved the same aircraft, but that other article also has not one, but two, claims to lasting notability that this incident does not. This is again completely irrelevant to the deletion rationale. MickMacNee (talk) 18:48, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply
    ]

Comment About the Per nom which I voted on earlier I was not following the leader but had no more reasons to add on to Lugnut's statement. Plus MickMackNee you are using

WP:JUSTA, because you are pointing out what everybody is doing wrong, and should be avoided. Zbase4 (talk) 00:53, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply
]

MMN you are the one trying to get the article deleted. the burden is on you to show that this article is about routine news, not the other way round. remember unless there is a consensus that article fails relevant wiki policies it stays. So far you have failed clearly, utterly and miserably in making an argument which is remotely coherent. I will once again say what I have said in many of of previous AfDs where you voted for delete. their is NO way in hell this article will be deleted. As usual you are on losing side of (yet) another AfD debate.--Wikireader41 (talk) 09:29, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nonsense, my deletion rationale is perfectly understandable and coherent. It really isn't my problem if you choose not to answer it in the correct way, and whether that's because you can't or won't is immaterial, the end result is the same. A small but policy-clueless consensus in and Afd cannot over-ride the inherent site wide consensus which is represented by policies. That's a simple fact which you never seem to understand in these constant claims of yours that 'there is no way in hell blah blah blah blah' at Afd. You said the exact same rubbish in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wind Jet Flight 243, and guess what, your clueless argumentation was ignored in favour of policy backed points. Do you remember what you said? "let me boldly predict that there is no way in hell this article will be deleted". So seriously, why should the closer, let alone anybody else, take a blind bit of notice of what you say at all? MickMacNee (talk) 13:32, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. If the closer or anyone else wants to know how clued up Wikireader41 is about the whole application/misapplication of NOT#NEWS, check out the unfolding debate at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barack Obama's visit to India. MickMacNee (talk) 13:39, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nonsense. nobody here cares about what you say. calling it a "rationale" is a gross insult to the word. wait and see what happens to Obama article and this article. MMN would you care to list all aircrash related where you completely and miserably lost the debate or do you want me to do the honor. PS to the closing admin MMN is habitually on the losing end of debates in aircrash related AfDs. please ignore the rants here. This is going to be another of long list of air crash related AfDs where MMN artfully demonstrates his ignorance about how wp works.--Wikireader41 (talk) 14:33, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If anyone is ranting here, it is you with this complete and utter juvenile playground bollocks, as usual. Afd is not about 'winnning' or 'losing', and competent editors don't give a toss about such rubbish. They only care whether someone is making a good arguments, or bad/non-existent arguments. And you fall well into the latter frankly. Oooh, you 'don't care' what I think? What, am I supposed to cry or something? Jesus Christ, go back to your kindergarten already. MickMacNee (talk) 15:09, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
really then why dont you enlighten us about your knowledge about deletion policy as it applies to Aircrashes and the results on recent aircrash AfDs where you !voted ??? I think it would be of interest that your arguments are frankly rubbished most of the time by the community. this article is not that much different from recent AfDs on similar crashes which have survived AfD nominations with flying colors. total and complete waste of time IMO--Wikireader41 (talk) 15:37, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can do better than that tbh. If you want an example of someone having their argument "rubbished" as you so ludicrously put it, then you need look no further than the very latest aircrash Afd, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Qantas Flight 32. You voted "Strong keep clearly meets WP:N". Another pointless and clueless VAGEUWAVE as it happens. I voted delete, referencing the exact same policies, guidelines and essay that I have done in here. That debate ended 'no consensus', and the closer states "I think the delete side has a slightly better argument". So, let's just stop pretending you have any idea about the deletion policy at all shall we? You are still at the level of cluelessness where you even think putting 'strong' before your vote makes a blind bit of difference, as if the closer is going to take a any notice of that. That's the level of competency you are at right now. I will of course be interested in any diffs where a closer has "rubbished" any argument of mine in any Afd, but I think we both know that they don't exist outside of your imagination. Or better yet, you can explain how, if you think the community always keeps accidents like this, there is still not a single guideline out there that gives automatic notability to these perfectly routine news events. And the proposed guideline doesn't either. Again, the only place where a guideline is ever likely to follow what you think is 'obvious blah blah blah' at Afd, is in your imagination. If you can't see where some of those those flawed vote-counted keeps are going to go once that guideline is adopted, or where all these no consensus outcomes are going to go a year or two down the line, then you are very naive indeed. But I have to say it is down to clueless votes exactly like yours which is going to result in that guideline eventually being adopted, so you at least have some use around here. MickMacNee (talk) 16:02, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "For an aviation accident or incident to be notable enough for an article it must meet a consensus for inclusion which is provided by a general notability guideline, a notability of events guideline (EVENT!) and a guide on the use of news reports (NOT#NEWS!)." - which puts the whole 'just an essay' nonsense being peddled in here into full perspective
  • "Most accidents and incidents are not notable enough for their own Wikipedia article" - has anybody even come close to showing how this incident is different to most crashes? Not at all
  • "News coverage is not an indicator of notability on its own." - has anybody even attempted to show that this article is covered by sources other than basic routine news? Absolutely not
  • "Most accidents and incidents that have an enduring historical significance or have lasting effects are notable" - has anybody even attempted to explain how this crash will have enduring historical significance or lasting effects? Of course not
I added a section in my !vote to address this concern. --Cyclopiatalk 21:10, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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