Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Araksi Cetinyan
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. This one is a bit of a mess. There is a clear dispute, not as to the subject's existence, but whether she actually won a competition that would make her notable. Rather than re-listing it, I am closing it as NC and strongly suggest to the editors involved that the article is improved so that it meets our policies or guidelines, or the inevitable result will be that it is nominated again. Black Kite (talk) 00:19, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Araksi Cetinyan
The article claims this individual to be the crowned first Miss Turkey in 1925, yet the first Miss Turkey contest itself was actually held many years later in 1929 and was won by Feriha Tevfik (in fact, a common general knowledge quiz question here). The list of winners is publicly available on the official Miss Turkey website and many other places on the internet. The claims in the article about the individual itself seems to originate from a Hürriyet piece in 2010 (also used as a reference in the article) which had a mention of a "Araksi Cetinyan" and seems to have proliferated from that through Armenian sites on the internet since 2010. No other detail is present; whether this person even existed is doubtful. Maviyengeç (talk) 05:53, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The source says she was the first beauty pageant winner. Not the first Miss Turkey which started in 1929. I will change the information on the article to better reflect the source. Proudbolsahye (talk) 09:18, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:28, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fashion-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:28, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:28, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Hate to say it, but couldn't find anything beyond the single article. Unless other sources can be found, it has to be a delete.Mabalu (talk) 17:57, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Relistedto generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Courcelles 03:28, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Merge into Miss Turkey, see below. The only piece of information we have is half a line from the newspaper (admittedly, a reliable source); nothing else is known. This is insufficient to have a dedicated encyclopedia article.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:50, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]- Keep According to [1] (Hürriyet newspaper), Gazanfer İbar's article Unutulan Tescilli Güzeller (Forgotten Registered Beauties) was published in Atlas Tarih (its members of board of referees: Hıfzı Topuz, İlber Ortaylı, Ersin Alok, Ruhi Ayangil etc.. ). The website of Miss Globe International also mentions to Araksi Çetinyan (not C but Ç). According to Cumhuriyet (3 Sep. 1929) newspaper, Gazetemizin tertiplediği Türkiye Güzellik Kraliçesi seçimi dün yapıldı ve birinciliği Feriha Tevfik Hanım, ikinciliği Semine Hanım ve üçuncülüğü de Matmazel Araksi Çetiniyan Hanım kazandılar. A. Holly (Ada Holland) Shissler's artilce "Beauty Is Nothing to Be Ashamed Of: Beauty Contests As Tools of Women’s Liberation in Early Republican Turkey", Comparative Studies of South Asia, Africa and the Middle East 24.1, 2004, pp. 107-122. But this author wrote her surname as Çetiniyan. Takabeg (talk) 01:23, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Congratulations, you've shown that this individual is most likely a real person. But that still doesn't make her notable and the claims in the article are still for the most part unverified.
If she won the official and recognized 'Miss Turkey' national pageant and had a notable film career (like Feriha Tevfik), and that information was backed up by widely available multiple, credible sources, then she deserves an article . But simply participating in or winning any odd thing doesn't quite cut it. There are thousands of beauty pagaeants held all over the world, and usually all of them claim to be the definite one. Anyone can hold one anywhere. I could hold one in my basement and crown my daughter 'the most beautiful girl in the world' with the prize being a bar of chocolate :) I would also like to add that the real objective of this article isnt about providing information, but about promoting an ethnic nationalist-chauvanist agenda, judging by the parties pushing this. --Maviyengeç (talk) 03:20, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Response - I'm not sure calling other Wikipedians "national-chauvinists" is constructive or particularly helpful. It seems to me that the page is now sourced and supported, therefore I have no issue with it. I have very little clue about the backstory here, I'm just saying what it looks like to an outsider. Mabalu (talk) 13:29, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Please read above mentioned comment by Takabeg. There are numerous sources. Some sources reaffirm her first place win in 1925. I already added the sources. Please consider or revise your original positions. Im sure all issues have been solved now. Proudbolsahye (talk) 05:57, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Winning an minor, unofficial beauty contest a century ago doesnt meet notability guidelines.-63.141.199.99 (talk) 12:06, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep as per new sourcing being found. However, the picture in this article is debatably not of the subject as dress, hairstyle, jewellery, make-up etc are all obviously from the 1950s and not the 1920s. It may show her in the 1950s (in which case she looked unbelievable for 50-something). This needs investigation. Mabalu (talk) 14:12, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I thought so! Was Googling around and came across this. The lady in the photo is Günseli Başar. See this. She's not deceased, so will request the photograph deleted as there is no fair use rationale for pictures of living people. Mabalu (talk) 11:52, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep notable enough and sources have been added recently --talk 20:33, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Mentioning the winner of the first beauty pageant competition ever to be held in the newly founded Turkish Republic is notable and therefore differs from other beauty pageant winners. Also enough sources are provided. --Markus2685 (talk) 21:18, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Relistedto generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz talk 20:42, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note on Sources: Participants please see the TP of the article about "honest mistakes" in the use of sources and do not hesitate to ask me if there is anything not clear enough. --E4024 (talk) 22:27, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I think we need to focus on the article itself as per WP:FOC and not on other editor's perceived shortcomings. Mabalu (talk) 22:38, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Mabalu, commenting on the sources is commenting on the article. I am referring to misuse of sources here. Some sources are only about the "first", as they state it, beauty pageant in Turkey which they report was in 1929, to begin with. (Ms Çetinyan came third in that contest.) So those sources do not support the "essence" of our article. On the other hand, one source says, with regard to the contest of May 3 (1925 or 1926? Any RS on the exact date?) it was disclosed that Ms Çetinyan was "favoured by the jury and her title was retrieved". BTW I believe "perceived shortcomings" of the concerned user are to be considered, if they have a pattern of "misunderstanding" the sources and repeatedly declaring "honest mistakes". I believe "sources" are very important in determining the notability of a subject; aren't they? --E4024 (talk) 23:10, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I provided extra information and sources (see Talk:Araksi Çetinyan#One more source falsification) Takabeg (talk) 23:18, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm concerned that there are issues between Wikipedians going on here which are affecting the discussion. References to "someone" making "honest mistakes" and accusations of "chauvinism" kind of imply that this isn't so much about the article as about point-scoring against other Wikipedians - which works both ways. Yes, comment on the sources but apparent side swipes at other editors while doing so doesn't really help the case. I am WP:assuming good faith on everyone's part, but also feel like the odd one out here in that I'm not particularly interested in Turkish/Armenian/wherever issues and to me, this article seems well sourced and dependent on a number of valid sources. I don't care why this article was created, I don't care why anyone thinks it was created, and I honestly don't want to be questioning the motivations of anyone involved - to me it seems that it now more than passes notability requirements, and that's enough for me. Mabalu (talk) 00:50, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Just as Mabalu says this is not a Turkish-Armenian issue (at least for me) because I see no difference among Turkish citizens regarding their ethnicity. This is about misuse of sources. The latest source provided above says, in Turkish:
- I'm concerned that there are issues between Wikipedians going on here which are affecting the discussion. References to "someone" making "honest mistakes" and accusations of "chauvinism" kind of imply that this isn't so much about the article as about point-scoring against other Wikipedians - which works both ways. Yes, comment on the sources but apparent side swipes at other editors while doing so doesn't really help the case. I am
- I provided extra information and sources (see Talk:Araksi Çetinyan#One more source falsification) Takabeg (talk) 23:18, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Mabalu, commenting on the sources is commenting on the article. I am referring to misuse of sources here. Some sources are only about the "first", as they state it, beauty pageant in Turkey which they report was in 1929, to begin with. (Ms Çetinyan came third in that contest.) So those sources do not support the "essence" of our article. On the other hand, one source says, with regard to the contest of May 3 (1925 or 1926? Any RS on the exact date?) it was disclosed that Ms Çetinyan was "favoured by the jury and her title was retrieved". BTW I believe "perceived shortcomings" of the concerned user are to be considered, if they have a pattern of "misunderstanding" the sources and repeatedly declaring "honest mistakes". I believe "sources" are very important in determining the notability of a subject; aren't they? --E4024 (talk) 23:10, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
1.1.Türkiye’de Güzellik Yarışmalarının Tarihi ve Türkiye’nin Modernleşme Sürecindeki Anlamı Günümüz dünyasının ilk güzellik yarışması Belçika’da Concours de Beaute adı altında 350 aday ile yapılmış 18 yaşındaki Bertha Soucaret ilk güzellik kraliçesi olmuştur. İlk resmi ve uluslararası yarışma 14 Ağustos 1908 tarihinde İngiltere Folkstone şehrinde, ilk “Dünya Güzellik Kraliçesi” yarışması ise 19 Nisan 1951 tarihinde Londra Festivali kapsamında düzenlenmiştir. Türkiye'deki ilk güzellik yarışması 1926 yılında İpek Film önderliğinde Melek Sinemasında (Bugünkü Emek sineması) düzenlenmiş ve yarışmayı sinemanın yer göstericisinin kızı Matmazel Araksi Çetinyan kazanmıştır. Fakat yarışma geçersiz sayılmıştır. İlk ciddi ve resmi organizasyon 1929 yılında Mustafa Kemal Atatürk direktifiyle Cumhuriyet Gazetesi tarafından düzenlenmiştir. 25 Şubat 1929 tarihinde yapılan duyurularda 16 ila 25 yaş arası her namuslu Türk kızının iştirak edebileceği ve bar kızlarının yarışmaya alınmayacağı açıklanmıştır. 2-3 Eylül 1929 yılında yapılan yarışmayı 19 yaşındaki Feriha Tevfik (Dağ) kazanmıştır.
Source:http://iys.inonu.edu.tr/webpanel/dosyalar/988/file/kultur.pdf
Let me translate for you the important content (the essence, I bolded those parts). The contest made in 1926 won by Ms Çetinyan was annulled (or "invalidated", I am not a native speaker of English; the result was considering it null and void). The first official and serious pageant was organized by the "Cumhuriyet" newspaper on 2-3 September 1929 and was won by Feriha Tevfik. (I add: Ms Çetinyan has taken the third place in this pageant per sources.) This is it. --E4024 (talk) 10:15, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- By this rationale, I'd say the article needs to be updated to reflect that the first pageant was nullified and is not recognised as an official Turkish pageant - but the fact is that the subject is receiving coverage (regardless of the motivations behind such coverage) and that she was the first winner of a quasi-official pageant - even if that pageant was later nullified. That's noteworthy. In this case, it's not like the event was trying to claim kinship with a pre-existing pageant or event, which also makes it worth noting. There's an argument for merging this into Miss Turkey article as a historical note on a predecessor (particularly as Araksi did compete in that too) which I wouldn't object to, though I still feel the article - especially once correctly updated to reflect what the sources say - is a valid keep. Mabalu (talk) 11:09, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I just do not see how we can keep this article. Merging into Miss Turkey would be fine with me, but as an alone-standing article - we do not know when she was born, when she died (and whether she died at all - though most likely so), what profession did she have, just nothing. We only know she run in two notable beauty contests, and several newspapers mentioned that. How could this be an encyclopedic article?--Ymblanter (talk) 11:42, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- There are plenty of equally dubious stubs for people such as WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS, I know. I am leaning merge into Miss Turkey as a result of all this, too - still better than a delete. Mabalu (talk) 12:11, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- There are plenty of equally dubious stubs for people such as
- I just do not see how we can keep this article. Merging into Miss Turkey would be fine with me, but as an alone-standing article - we do not know when she was born, when she died (and whether she died at all - though most likely so), what profession did she have, just nothing. We only know she run in two notable beauty contests, and several newspapers mentioned that. How could this be an encyclopedic article?--Ymblanter (talk) 11:42, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- By this rationale, I'd say the article needs to be updated to reflect that the first pageant was nullified and is not recognised as an official Turkish pageant - but the fact is that the subject is receiving coverage (regardless of the motivations behind such coverage) and that she was the first winner of a quasi-official pageant - even if that pageant was later nullified. That's noteworthy. In this case, it's not like the event was trying to claim kinship with a pre-existing pageant or event, which also makes it worth noting. There's an argument for merging this into Miss Turkey article as a historical note on a predecessor (particularly as Araksi did compete in that too) which I wouldn't object to, though I still feel the article - especially once correctly updated to reflect what the sources say - is a valid keep. Mabalu (talk) 11:09, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- If you want to merge this stub somewhere, the destination should be the "article" on Miss Globe Organisation (which is another problematic case, IMO, as it was edited several times by a user who has the same name with the "owner" of the Organisation and still seems to be a stub after several years of existence in WP). Please see this source (whose English gives an impression like the text was translated from another language, say Turkish or Armenian :-) to find out more about Ms Çetinyan and the "Miss Globe International". Thanks. --E4024 (talk) 12:31, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Theres no need to merge. Ill just add the information onto the page. I dont get why anyone isnt doing so already. Its the first beauty pageant held in an Islamic country and was won by an Armenian. She deserves to have an own article whether she won or not. I dont care about the aftermath or the sociopolitical factors that "nullified" it. It is a momentuous event and the controversy is notable in itself. These sociopolitical factors is what is provoking users to even say she didnt exist (first comment). Why? Because she was Armenian? Please lets stick to good faith. If the Turkish public today cant swallow the fact that an Armenian won the first beauty pageant, imagine how it was 90 years ago! Proudbolsahye (talk) 16:52, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Who were the other participants? Who came second and third? Maybe you stop insulting at the Turks and make an article for this "first beauty contest in an Islamic country" (Is it your own research?) which was "not official and not serious" and "received by istihza (irony, sarcasm, ridicule) by the press and people" (i.e. public opinion; I add) per two reliable sources, and you merge Ms Çetinyan into that new article; although I have a feeling it would also be deleted under these circumstances. --E4024 (talk) 23:50, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Theres no need to merge. Ill just add the information onto the page. I dont get why anyone isnt doing so already. Its the first beauty pageant held in an Islamic country and was won by an Armenian. She deserves to have an own article whether she won or not. I dont care about the aftermath or the sociopolitical factors that "nullified" it. It is a momentuous event and the controversy is notable in itself. These sociopolitical factors is what is provoking users to even say she didnt exist (first comment). Why? Because she was Armenian? Please lets stick to good faith. If the Turkish public today cant swallow the fact that an Armenian won the first beauty pageant, imagine how it was 90 years ago! Proudbolsahye (talk) 16:52, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't insult Turks. I have many Turkish friends. Please don't get personal. Also I insist you stop calling me a "nationalist", "racist", trying to get me banned with "SPI"'s, and constantly trying to poke fun at my mentioning of "honest mistake". Please respect the Wikipedia:Five pillars and Wikipedia:Civility. All articles I make reflect (mostly Turkish) sources. Proudbolsahye (talk) 23:59, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@User Malabu and others: I added more examples of "misuse" of sources (even after I reported this practice) by the main editor of the stub. This is not a talk about that contributor but their contributions which make this stub not acceptable as a WP article. --E4024 (talk) 11:06, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep As one of the providers of sources, I think that this person is notable from the point of view of sources. Almost of all sources deal this person as the first miss Turkey. "Misuse of sources" is not a valid reason to keep or delete an article. Takabeg (talk) 23:04, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Let me take it as a lapsus linguae the reference to "first Miss Turkey" as the "Miss Turkey" began only in 1929 (and as I noted several times, Ms Çetinyan came third in that first ever "Miss Turkey" pageant) but I would like to recommend you that while you are busy looking for sources find some reliable sources about when she was born, if she is still alive or died (when and where), what did she do for a living (other than the work in the theatre), if she married anyone, who were the other contestants in that pageant she won (sic) but her title was retrieved, who came second, who third etc so you can keep (or write from scratch after the deletion) this article. --E4024 (talk) 23:18, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.